Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Wednesday, August 24, 2011

Thought experiment: Oneiros

While I've been deciding my next move in EVE Online, I've been spending some of my time in incursion fleets, learning how they work and dipping my toe into running one or two of them.  My primary toon for this has been my Logistics pilot, who is also my Gallente carrier and triage pilot.  As a side business, this character can also fly both Recons and HACs and has all four racial cruiser skills to Level V.  His main ships other than Logistics are the Pilgrim, Ishtar, and most recently, the Falcon and Curse.  Still, his three most-frequently flown ships are the Guardian, Scimitar, and Basilisk.

He can fly an Oneiros, but he never has.

On paper, the Onerios should be a great Logistics ship.  It should be, in fact, the armor equivalent of the Scimitar, which is beloved.  The Oneiros has lots of mids for e-war or support, is cap stable as a solo logi, and tanks reasonably well.  In practice though, "tanks reasonably well" is nowhere near enough.  It's difficult or impossible to get a PvP Oneiros above 5000 armor HP.  It doesn't have the grid to fit a 1600mm plate, and in today's world of alpha Maelstroms and Hellcats, its armor is too thin and its sig radius is too big.  That's that.

In order to become viable in today's EVE PvP battlefield, the Oneiros is going to need a grid upgrade of at least 200 PG, and probably more like 250.  Trading a mid-slot for an additional low slot should also be considered.  Hopefully, these kinds of changes will be on the radar when and if CCP starts ship balancing.

Still, incursions might offer a second chance for usefulness for this much-maligned ship, right?

In incursion shield fleets, Scimitars make up about 25% of the logis.  Their tracking links and solo cap stability make them particularly prized in Vanguards and Assaults, where fast-moving Sansha frigs are common and quick response from the logis to the first ship to enter the field can be important.  However, in armor fleets, Oneiroses seem to make up less than 5% of the logis.  However, Oneiros pilots are rabidly vocal about and loyal to their boats.  But unlike Guardians -- where there are a few standard fits -- the Oneiros fits you see vary wildly.  They're literally all over the map with few or no common points.  This set me wondering: could I put together a good Onerios fit for incursions?

It's generally accepted that you can and should spend a little extra money on an incursion ship.  While you will see T1 battleships and the occasional T2 cruiser, most of the ships that the logis will be repping will be billion ISK faction battleships or T3s.  As a result, it's worthwhile to spend a few hundred million on an incursion logi to get the best possible performance out of it.  Tech2 rigs and faction modules are commonplace, and "inexpensive" dead-space mods are not unheard of.  Even if you "pimp out" your logi, you're still almost certainly going to be the cheapest ship in an incursion fleet, particularly a "shiny" incursion fleet.  This would seem to indicate that there's a place for a pimped-out Oneiros.

And indeed, after working in EFT for a while, I came up with something that seems surprisingly good:

[Oneiros, Incursion v4]
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corelum A-Type Energized Reactive Membrane
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Tracking Link II
Tracking Link II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

This Oneiros can very nearly match an incursion Scimitar's tank, and can actually out-rep a typical incursion Guardian (which will typically have two T2 reppers and two Meta4 reppers).  It's expensive of course, but all the extra expense is directly helping the ship's role, and it's actually not much more expensive than the typical incursion Guardian.  And it's still far cheaper than a pirate battleship or T3, which are quite common in incursions.

So, it can do the job.  But is it any good?  Is it truly better than the Guardian?

On paper, the answer is "yes".  The four T2 reppers put out 341.3 armor HP per second, and the five T2 medium drones add an additional 70.  That's 411.3 armor HP per second total.  The typical incursion Guardian puts out 359.3 total.  So, on paper, the Oneiros is clearly superior.  The EHP (measured in EFT) is a little over 33,000.  This is less than a Guardian, which typically has 50,000 EHP or more.  But still, it's enough to survive all but the toughest incursion sites.

But say we want to be silly.  Say we want to directly compete with this Oneiros in a Guardian.  Say we want to make -- don't laugh, just for a second -- a cap-stable Guardian.  Is it possible?  And will it beat this Oneiros?

Sadly, the answer to both of these questions is also "yes".

[Guardian, Cap Stable LOL]
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Capacitor Power Relay II
Reactor Control Unit II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Medium Remote Armor Repair System II
Medium Remote Armor Repair System II

Medium Remote Repair Augmentor I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I

Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

Nobody would ever fit a Guardian this way.  But you could.  And if you did, you'd find that this ship is cap-stable, and has 42,000 EHP measured in EFT, and more than 7800 armor HP.  So, it out-tanks the Oneiros above and will easily tank an incursion with the support of its other logis.  And it out-reps the Oneiros, too.  The four large reppers produce 315.7 armor HP per second.  The dual MAR2s add 85.3 and the small rep drones add an additional 35.  That's 436 armor HP per second total, which beats the Onerios's 411.  It's also less than half the price of the Oneiros fit.

Still, there's nothing inherently wrong with the Oneiros fit above.  If you insist on flying the Gallente logi and are looking for a good fit, what's above is it.  You can correctly state when people ask that it will out-rep the typical incursion Guardian and it adds a pair of mid-slot utility mods that you can use to fit Remote Sensor Boosters or the Tracking Links I specify.  You can even get a little more pimped out and buy Shadow Serpentis Tracking Links, which are prized and aren't too horribly expensive.

But in the meantime, as long as the Guardian can outdo the Oneiros in the Oneiros's own role, the Oneiros badly needs rebalancing.  And I hope that it gets it.

5 comments:

  1. Yeah it is a pain trying to find an Oneiros fit for Incursions. Unfortunately the Oneiros and Scimi are the only two Logi I can fly. Most of the people that I know that do incursions are usually in armor fleets. With that said, I think your fit, slightly modified to fit my skills of course, is one of the more solid ones that I've seen. So thank you!

    ReplyDelete
  2. Glad I could help. Any of the three A-type Energized Reactive Membranes will work, BTW, if you fit one. They're all identical. Just go with whatever is cheapest. I saw one of the three listed for 85 million this morning.

    ReplyDelete
  3. You could downgrade the reps of the oneiros to Meta4 and use 2x T2 cccs. With Imps you can mount 4 tracking links and still be capstable which the guardian cannot :)

    The performance as logistic should still be feasible for an incursion.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Its worth noting that your comments on giving the Oneiros 200 powergrid and swapping a mid for a low may have been taken.

    Still, I am not sure I like the idea of swapping a mid for a low. It hurts a lot of the nitch roles for tracking links and remote ECCM.

    Giving it that low slot just feels like trying to make the Oneiros into a Guardian. Its not a Guardian, and shouldn't be modified to be more like one. What it needs is unique benefits that make it just as useful. The added speed, reduced signature, and 200 powergrid by themselves are probably plenty to do just that

    ReplyDelete
  5. Oh Jester! There are exactly no decent pvp Onis. Please Help?!

    ReplyDelete

Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.