Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Sunday, November 20, 2011

Vive la résistance!

A lot of people don't like flying Logistics, but I do.  It's not something I've done in Rote Kapelle (yet), because Rote generally flies with only a few Logis and those few positions are considered prestige positions and the pilots in them are well-rewarded.(1)  Sooner or later, I suspect I'll get there.  In the meantime, I've got a good bit of PvP Logi experience with past alliances, as well as PvE Logi experience in wormholes and incursion fleets.

For incursions specifically, it's no accident that my incursion guides speak specifically to how to tank for incursion fleets, and of my two dedicated incursion guides, one is a "How to be a Logistics in incursions" guide.  ;-)

There's a good rule of thumb that it's smart to follow when you're flying in a fleet: if you have a decent number of Logis, fit for resists.  If you don't, fit for buffer.

It's not a hard and fast rule.  For instance, if you're flying in a fleet with Logi, you should still have enough buffer that there is time for the Logis to lock you and hold you up.  And of course, even the most buffer-fit ship you have, if it's a cruiser or bigger, it should have at least some resists.  There are exceptions to every rule, and situations where you want to fit for buffer even if you have a ton of Logi support.  Still, it's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind.  I will illustrate why.  Warning: scary math follows.

If I'm sitting in my Logi, chances are pretty good that I can apply somewhere between 85 and 105 hit points of shield and/or armor to your tank, per second, per repper that I apply to you.(2)  Let's average it out and say that it's 100.  I generally have four reppers.  Let's say I put all four on you.  That's 400 raw hit points per second.  But that's only 400 EHP if you have no resists at all.  Most ships have resists.  The more resists you have, the more effective that 400 raw hit points is going to be:
  • If you have 80% resists, then that 400 raw hit points effectively becomes 2000 EHP (400 divided by 20%).
  • If you have 68% resists, then that 400 raw hit points effectively becomes 1250 EHP (400 divided by 32%).
  • If you have 47% resists, then that 400 raw hit points effectively becomes 750 EHP (400 divided by 53%).
The difference between 68% and 80% resists is not very large: 12% on your resistances.  But if you don't have that 12%, that means I have to work almost twice as hard to keep you alive.  And if you haven't fit for resists at all, I have to work almost three times as hard.

This is why you'll hear Logi pilots tell you again and again, resists > buffer.  You only need enough buffer to give me time to lock you after you broadcast for reps.  Any buffer you have above and beyond that is wasted mid- and/or low slots, depending.  I would have rather you fit another Invul instead of that LSE, another EANM instead of that plate.  Again, this isn't the situation every single time.  There are exceptions to every rule.  But if you're in doubt, that's the factor you should keep in mind.

Back when I wrote about various ways of fitting Vagabonds, I covered this topic.  A solo/quick response Vaga should have two LSEs in the mids.  However, a Vaga for fleets where you expect there to be good Logi support can fit Anti-Explosive and Anti-Kinetic resist rigs, and an Invulnerability Field II as well (replacing one of the LSEs).  The lowest resist on the first Vaga will be 48% (but it will have a very large buffer).  The lowest resist on the second Vaga will be 73% (with about 60% of the buffer of the first).  Quite a difference!

Finally, this rule applies to mission ships as well, particularly L4 mission ships, using self-reps.  You only need enough buffer, whether shield or armor, that you feel comfortable with your ability to keep yourself repaired.  All your other mid- or low slots, depending, should either go to additional resists, additional DPS, or additional utility e-war.  The first will mean you take less damage, so you have to cycle your repper less often.  The second and third will mean you kill the rats faster, with the same net result.  Watch how your ship does during a mission to judge this.  If you never dip below 50% armor or shields, depending, you should consider making some changes.

To summarize, it's just a good rule of thumb to keep in mind: if you have a decent Logis or self-rep, fit for resists.  If you don't, fit for buffer.


(1) In Rote, if there are no ship losses, the Logis get to split the loot.  As a result, Rote almost never has problems getting Logi pilots to X up.  Other alliances that are having this problem, take note.

(2) A lot of factors play into this, including whether the reppers are meta or T2, whether I'm receiving boosts, whether those boosts are coming off a dedicated Fleet Command Ship, whether that Command Ship has a pilot with a Siege Mindlink implant, et cetera.  Soon, another factor will come into play: whether the ganglinks on that boost ship are T1 or T2.

12 comments:

  1. Don't let the fitting "gurus" of my alliance hear all this; the "fleet fits" they bring about are nothing but buffer with a side of buffer and a touch of resists. Generally they have one omni-mod, with one resist-hole-plugger if there are more than 4 tank slots. The rest is buffer, always rigged for buffer. Although, I remember the "fleet Mega" fit we had a looooong time ago actually had two non-energized Adaptive Platings on it, but that's probably because they all seem to think the Mega is a piece of tinfoil.

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  2. Why would the ganglinks ever be T1 on any T2 or T3 ship?

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  3. OOZ662: They really fit 3x LSE and one Invul for example? If so i'm convinced they are doing it wrong.

    What i didn't know until recently is that resist gains from Fleetboosts also suffer from Stacking penaltys.
    That can make a buffer oriented fit better then a focus on resists.
    Even if the resist based one looks better if you compare them 1on1.

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  4. Serp the t2 links are only on SiSi so far.

    One missiong point is ship size. A smaller ship such a cruiser needs to survive longer before the logi can target and apply reps. I can target a battle ship a lot faster than your cruiser.

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  5. @Ripard I took a look at quantifying the effect of both sig and resists in the current logi-heavy environment of PvP. I'd be interested in any comments you have for when I work up the desire for another pass, link here: http://madhaberdashers.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/secondary-stats-part-1-atr/

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  6. @mad: Read it. That's a really interesting way of looking at this topic!

    I almost expanded this post by pointing out that the 47% resist ship with 4 reps can withstand one BS, the 68% two BSs, and the 80% three BSs. But then you get into the signature radius questions depending on the size of the resisting ship that you raise and I decided not to include that in the post. Just kind of cluttered the point I was trying to make. ;-)

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  7. @jester/ripard (which do you prefer anyway?)

    I'm a SABRmetric baseball fan, so trying to find a better way to quantify ships beyond "ehp/dps" is kind of natural for me. A "Unified Theory of Ship Fitting" would be nice.

    Ironically I hate min/maxing in other MMOs.

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  8. @Hendl For four slots, they'd fit one invul, one photon (for example), and two LSEs. Any more tank slots than that and they start filling them with EWar/Damage...which annoys me, since they seem to think all fleetships should make up the EWar package, except with a few Caldari cruisers for ECM...bringing any other dedicated EWar ship (unless a cloaky recon for scouting) gets you heckled out of the fleet.
    I set up a couple tracking disruption Arbitrators on the cheap to "hide in the back" and absolutely murder the DPS of Hellcat fleets, for example...I think I made it out for one roam, then after that no matter what I said I would get heckled until I'd finally just drop fleet because "droneboats are useless."
    /rant

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  9. This is pretty interesting. I know my instinct has always been to favor resists, but let's face it, the "standard" doctrine most alliances and players will jam down your throat is buffer buffer buffer... course my question is "what good is an extra 1500armor/shield HP if it evaporates like nothin?"

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  10. @Hong - Enough HP to survive until Reps land, then RESIST RESIST RESIST!

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  11. There is also the Situation where you don't have enough Logis to survive even if they all have you (pre)locked, in these cases the aim should be to maximize the time it takes to kill you. If higher resists or a bigger buffer is the way to go to acomplish that is another thing.

    With OZ's (I guess it was a Drake) example, 2x LSE, Photon + Invul can be a good fit IF you have fleetboosts to resists AND not enough logis for reps to hold.
    If either of these 2 things isn't true 2x Invul is the better solution though.

    Most 0.0 fleets i have been in had a relative small number of Logis compared to the Amount of BS/BC's. With 4 Scimitars in a fleet it takes much longer for the resists to "pay off" then it does with 10.
    With 40 BC's shooting you chances are good you would explode before the higher resists would have payed off.
    That probably helps to explain the focus on EHP in many 0.0 Alliances.

    But otherwise i totally agree with Jester there. If you have enough logis Resists are a huge advantage.

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  12. Good article Jester. I've been looking for a corp or alliance that really values and trains their Logi pilots. I've rolled through a few corps that are glad to have them, but don't really do much in the way of raising logi up to where they can go.

    Any suggestions? Logi and recon are the two things that I love to do in game. It's hard finding a place where that's really appreciated and nurtured.

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