Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Tuesday, January 31, 2012

Comment of the Week: Uphill through the snow

From an anonymous commenter, a comment that could have been attached to any of my last four or five major posts, really:
Experience in the game is all well and good but many of the oldest players in the game are particularly dismissive of changes that newer players suggest simply because they have reached bitter vet status and are at the point that - "I had to walk uphill through the snow so you have to too"- becomes their answer to problems that should have been fixed long ago.
Ain't that the truth?  It'll also work particularly well as a comment for tomorrow's tent-pole post.


  1. Suppose to be fair, hilmar just stated nothing huge could be implemented in this game. Alot of new players and player suggestions are kind of huge most of the time, wether they know that or not. Suppose some of us older players should remain quiet over that stuff next time and allow hilmar to pwn them over their dumb suggestions.

  2. Jester, what difficulty do you prefer to play skyrim with?

  3. I have two chars from 2004 and I needed to go uphill as mentioned. If CCP gives proper compensation, noone will complain... but, if there will be no fresh blood into the game, imagine playing EVE only with biter vets?? omg :P

  4. Being a "new player" myself, I dare to comment.
    Please do NOT make it any easier than it already is. I am playing Eve now BECAUSE it is a bit (sadly only a bit) more demanding than other games.
    Make it "noobie-friendly" and I will lose interest very fast...
    The only thing I wish for would be: increase skillpoint gain by 100% during the first year. Or give new players 10 Mio skillpoints right from the start.
    I would even pay for that. Real $$$

    1. You had a good thing going until that last part. What part of last summer did you miss?

    2. Ok, I take the last sentence back.
      I don't want to see that in the game.

      (But still....I would pay for it to be honest)

  5. Well, every time I think "I had to walk uphill through the snow so you have to too" its not because I'm a bitter vet but mostly coz I know that the walk uphill through the snow is what makes this game amazing.

    What would be the fun if most of the newbie changes would be implemented? 1 month char flying a BS with good eve skills? Every single player filthy rich?

    This is not WOW and we dont need a broken economy. Some of the stuff needs to be discovered and learned the hard way so we have some great players who dominate with their knowledge and skills and a huge vast of medium players and offcourse, the noobs.

    It's this diference in player knowledge and capabilities that makes the game fun and makes ppl want to learn more and improve.

    I dont want to present eve to my friends in a sentence like this one: 'Look at my new lvl 70 raven bs pilot that I created 2 weeks ago. I already farmed 200 bil in it. Pretty cool hum?'...

    So, its not biter vet, its just that some things should be hard so players can enjoy it better when they achieve them!

    1. Even though I am relatively new to EvE (having only played for a year) I agree that the level of difficulty in this game is adequate. Some things, the overheating interface for instance, where less than perfect and I am very glad to see CCP redoing them and making them better to use. That said, this game should not be easy by any means. The difficulty that many new players have to go through is unusual for many MMO's but it the one feature that makes EvE unique. Players that overcome the difficulty become better players for it and this is the one mechanic that separates the excellent players from the mediocre players more than anything else.

  6. No, bittervets love removing crap that sucked when we were starting out. Proof? Learning skills. Not a single tear was shed the day they were removed.

    But allowing a one year char being able to fly anything/everything a 5 year old char can? That's just terrible because it's TERRIBLE.

    1. I remember suggesting removing the learning skills on the forums, you should have seen all the bashing I got for suggesting that idea

  7. The newer players want everything and anything, with incursions a new breed of players appeared into the game that are mostly suitable for WoW (or some other MMO out there). Do you remember what happened at incursion interdictions ? Player were crying that we cannot login for 5 hours a week and plex our account anymore, guess what? you're not supposed to be able to do so (and this doesn't have anything to do with bittervet status, it's a part of the game). If everyone can plex their account with that small of a playtime, what's gonna happen to eve economy?

    But don't worry the nannies at CCP were fast enough to make a thread for incursion suggestions :)

    1. I believe 500misk PLEX prices are what's happening to the EVE economy. Not wanting to play the blame game here, but it's priced me, as a non-Incursion runner, out of PLEXing my account.

  8. I'll mention my own thoughts here: it's not that the early game needs to be exactly made easier, it needs to make more sense. If Eve wants players to do relatively well in their early months/years in order to make it to 3 years then they need to increase the availability of isk-making in consideration of a solo grind.

    I'm not saying that missions should be handing out isk and devaluing it, but rather that cruisers/battlecruisers need to be buffed in order to legitimately run higher level missions. Currently only one BC sized ship can make it to level 4's without incredible trouble, and CCP is planning on taking that away from the drake. This isn't suggesting that you can't possibly win out level 4's in a Harbinger (I did so the other day on a 2 million sp toon), but it is damn hard, multiple warp outs/refits just to finish the three pocket mission. That's with the experience of a 2-3 year player, how would a month old have that kind of skill?

    Frigates can be used for a bunch of lvl 1/2ss, though they have a low falloff in the harder lvl 2s, where cruisers have tracking issues in lvl 2s, and have difficulty tanking lvl 3s. BCs can tank lvl 3s, but still have tracking issues, they can tank lvl 4s, but not for long enough to get decent damage out in order to stay in the site. BSs have tracking problems in lvl 4s, but can usually tank them well, and as you get higher sp, it becomes easier.

    The thing that is wrong about the whole set up is the cost of both training for BC/BS as well as the cost of buying both fitting and the ship. BCs aren't cheap by any means for someone starting out, the only way a newbie could relatively get somewhere is if they have help, and help from others only comes from the trust you gain. As this is Eve, trust is one of the hardest things to accomplish unless it's expected to be doubled.


  9. @G.A.

    I ground my way through level 2 missions in an Arbitrator before doing level 3s in a Harbinger, eventually cross training to a rudimentary Drake, then returning to the Amarr lineup for Battleships and L4s. (This is on my only character, am I doing it wrong?)

    Grinding low level missions is not only a long slog, it's a long educational slog. While you're doing them you're learning about resistances, about how much your ship can reasonably handle even with an inadequate tank and DPS. Hopefully you'll lose a couple of ships to the NPCs and learn to let them go.

    Then you'll appreciate how much tougher BCs are over cruisers when you get to them. If a BC has tracking issues in L3s, that means you're not shooting the right targets (in other words, cruisers and battlecruisers), and you should probably start training your drone skills as well. If you lose your BC to a scramming frig, that's a learning experience. (If you lose one to war targets as I did, that's an even better learning experience!)

    No BS I've flown in an L4 has ever had tracking issues when I've been shooting what I know I can hit (medium range targets, BSes, BCs, frigs flying straight at you). Your drone skills should be reasonable at this point so you don't have to worry about those pesky cruisers and frigs. I lost an Apocalypse to NPCs because I forgot to move my drones from the cargobay to the drone bay, but that's another matter.

    L3s pay fine, and you should be able to finance your first battleship without any trouble. T1 skillbooks are cheap as heck. It should be well tanked while you test the capabilities of your ship and then gradually decrease tank and increase DPS. As one of Jester's articles mentions, DPS+tank=~1000 is a good guideline.

    Your complaints are completely unfounded, besides the fact that finding purpose in doing this long slog is up to each individual.

  10. Sat at 9 mil SP, having 'given up' on eve twice in the 2 years I've technically played it due to the sheer boredom of training massive 'time-killers' like heavy missiles V, I agree that this is punishingly true.

    As i've said before, CCP really needs to come up with a way to battle 'skill point inflatation' (the effect where one group of people have accumulated such a vast amount of SP over time that it makes it almost impossible for newer players to compete unless they find super-specialised niches where their limited SP can be most effective).

    I'd love for Jester to do an objective post about this.

  11. @Sae

    You're right that it doesn't take much.... well if you're only grinding missions all day long to afford bigger and better, half the time you don't have enough skills to do a BS more than relatively alright. Even with T1 drone support, frigates take forever to pop. It's not as hard against them if you use either a web to lower their overall speed (because lets face it, you can't alpha all the frigates that are incoming before they get in that minimal range) or you have to use an afterburner to give yourself more space/lower their radial velocity.

    I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm suggesting that after a mere month of play time, you should have more to show for than a handful of half-trained skills. For a completely new player, I imagine that it is daunting, much as it was to train learning skills before.

    To bring in new players, sometimes you have to give them a chance to learn decently. I'm suggesting that I had struggles coming in to this game again as a player knowing that the only easy way to do missions would be caldari missile boats, or gallente drone boats.

    Also my suggestion isn't for long term, it would effect mission runners by only giving them a chance to be able to run lvl 4's without the speed that you gain from doing it in a BS. Just there is no reason to say that it's super easy to gain 30m in lvl 1/2s and easy lvl 3s in a Cruiser, then have to upgrade to a BC and make more money in lvl 3s, just to buy a 50-80m (because at this point you really should be able to rig a BS, if not you're losing out on some sweet extras) in order to start the weakest of lvl 4s in something that probably isn't skilled up past level 3 BS skill/Level 3 Large Turrets. (Which also if you have then there is no way you've won out a decent set of T2 drones, since they're extra in the dps department, where tank is the only thing that can ensure that your isk/hour strengthens.)

    I'm also going to suggest that I was lucky when I first started my character, I was Gallente and I knew their turrets were ugly as sin, I trained drones for damage, this time I was attempting a different tactic, and it made it much harder since I acted like I didn't know how superior drones were in the missions where frigates would keep you pinned at low orbits.


  12. @G.A.

    "I'm suggesting that after a mere month of play time, you should have more to show for than a handful of half-trained skills."

    You yourself use the word 'mere' for what is an extremely short period in terms of EVE. It is game which rewards long term thinking, long term goals and motivation to learn by yourself.

    If you're expecting to be able to fly a fully specced BC by the end of your first month and cruise through L3s, you're in the wrong game. If you think buying rigs for your fully fit battleship should be the least of your worries by the end of your first month, you're in the wrong game.

    On the other hand, if you spend that month familiarizing yourself with how the game plays, learning how to fit ships properly for your skill level and how to improve those fits later when you have the right skills, looking for places to find good fits and guides on your missions, looking for friends with whom you can share your experience, you'll be rewarded for your effort.

    Was I helped along by my friends? Did they shower me with free ISK and ships? Did they spoonfeed me ship fittings so I'd know how to fit ships but not why? No. I looked for resources, guides, blogs and forums where I'd be able to learn [b]why[/b] I fit ships this way. I learned the hard way that larger guns are useless against close orbiting frigates. I learned that drones are NOT optional.

    When you say you "acted like [you] didn't know how superior drones were", that is no excuse. If you didn't have that itch to learn the game, then you deserve to fail. If you believe that in ONE MONTH you should be flying battleships willy-nilly, then this is not the place for you.

    If what you suggest is implemented, newbies would be running around in fully fit battleships with no idea why they fit those ships the way they did, no idea how much a ship can handle and how much it can dish out, and dying. Instead newbies run around in crappily fit battleships with no idea why they fit the ships and no idea how to fly them and die.

    This is not a flaw in the game. The main flaw in the new player experience is that not enough pointers and explanations are given for WHY we do things as opposed to HOW.

  13. @Sae

    You're fault in this is the thought that I failed coming to Eve. No, I didn't the first time, I didn't the second either.

    This alt-account that i started for a little bit of highsec experience when i was bored was a social experiment. It succeeded well beyond it's bounds.

    There is no reason why only following one or two training paths for mission runners is optimal for creating new experiences for new players. I'm not suggesting it should be easy, but mission running shouldn't be so horrible in comparison to everything else.Sure you have the safety aspect and it's relatively easy to get in to, but anyone with connections can easily find W-space or lowsec much more rewarding in a mere month.

    I had those connections when I came back in to the game, i trained for the drake and was w-space making triple to quadruple the profits. I knew the risks of w-space that a lot of newbies don't know. This doesn't mean that w-space should be so rewarding that highsec in just a month of training should be so weak when compared.

    The flaw in this game is that it takes connections and/or knowledge to even be anywhere close to having an idea of how to progress in the early stages. I'm not suggesting that it be like WoW's earlier level grind, but level 4s are only midgame... why should it take so much knowledge to get to something so simple and so crappy for isk making?

    And just to make a point, I do think that after one-month of training, someone should be at least half-way decent at running missions. Not enough to plex every month after running 5-10 hours of missions a week, but enough so that they have a chance to be halfway casual while still doing what is suppose to be the second easiest thing in this game (unless you don't count mining, but that should be the easiest.)

    Stop trying to insult me as a player though, think about it as if you were trying to recruit friends in to the game without giving them much information. Sure, there are noobie corporations, but recruitment is also filled with some ugly voids that only recruit higher sp, either that or you have the noobie corps that spam in local.


    P.S. If I really have to make you understand that I am a decently successful player, then at that point i will suggest that you're an idiot unlike most of the comments I've seen in this blog. I'm not attacking you or your welfare, I am trying to make a point on what could be done for this game to expand a decent playerbase. (I.E. buffing cruisers/battlecruisers so that you can legitimately run most/all lvl 3's in cruisers, and run lvl 4s in BCs while being slower than in BS)

  14. @G.A.

    In most of my post, when I used "you" I of course meant whoever was reading. Perhaps I should've used "one" instead. I never meant to imply that you were a bad player or failing at the game. Apologies if it came across that way.

    I do agree that cruisers need a bit of buffing and tweaking, particularly with regard to the obsolete tier system that makes 3/4 of all T1 cruisers practically useless.

    However, I do not agree that cruisers should be able to run mid- to high-end L3 missions with any sort of ease, and BCs should not be able to run mid- to high-end L4s with any sort of ease.

    A fully fit cruiser costs about an hour or two of running L3s, a fully fit BC costs a few hours of running L4s, and I feel that's reasonable reward for the time spent.

    "I do think that after one-month of training, someone should be at least half-way decent at running missions. ...enough so that they have a chance to be halfway casual while still doing what is suppose to be the second easiest thing in this game."

    After the first month of training, one should be able to fly a battlecruiser with middling skills, which allows one to run any L3 mission with no problems provided you're prepared. I feel L3 missions are decent enough income that the halfway casual game is definitely within reach.

    This level of income is also plenty to support a newer player's forays into PvP in frigs and cruisers. So I'm not sure where your idea of it _not_ being an easy thing comes from?

    As to your comments about recruiting friends to EVE without giving them much information... Well that's just silly. If I were trying to recruit my friends to play EVE (actually I actively DIScourage most of them because I honestly think they wouldn't enjoy it, though there's one exception), I would be giving them as much information as I could. Passing on helpful links and resources, an invitation to join my corporation, and yes, perhaps a couple of fitted ships to start them off. If they survive the deluge of material required to learn the fundamentals, fine. If not, too bad.

  15. Since it seems I can not take you off your high-horse of "It was hard for me, and shouldn't be any easier for them". (No, you didn't say it, but the bittervet status still shows) I'm dropping the discussion.

    I'm not sure how to make changes that would work, but I'd rather tempt a chance to make it worthwhile for people to play this game. Not just for my own possible prospects, but because I always love more newbs to give me a chance to kill them without it being too one-sided.

    Currently you do have noobs fitting ships crappily, this wouldn't change a damn thing in that department. I only suggested a chance to make this possible for them, and instead of saying the reasons why it would destroy the game you know and love... you decide only to say that "Eve is hard, and should continue to be so" (again, not your words but you haven't specifically said why it would hurt your game.)

    So like I mentioned, I'm done with the discussion and would like to say good day. I shall not respond to any posts towards me on the current discussion.


  16. Good day! And in the absence of the dissenting party I would like to say, like any good bitter vet (:roll eyes:) that I win. Yay.


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