Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Friday, January 20, 2012

Plans for the weekend

If you don't follow incursion news in EVE, you might not be aware of this, but CSM alternate Darius III and the rest of BricK sQuAD. have made it their mission lately to close high-sec incursions as quickly as the mom spawns.  There's currently a 27-page threadnaught about it on the EVE Online forums... in the Crime and Punishment section, naturally.

Since my own connection to the incursion community is known, I haven't covered this to avoid the appearance of bias.  It's tempting, for instance, to rack this up as yet another veteran EVE player interdiction of new-player resources, except obviously with incursions it's nowhere near that simple since a lot of PvP vets like myself also participate in them.  It's equally tempting to rack this up as sour grapes on Darius's part, but it's not that simple either since Darius could hardly do this on his own.

So, I'm going to limit my coverage of the issue to this: whether you want to call this an interdiction or not, it's certainly been effective!  For the last couple of weeks, incursion bears have been very hard-pressed to find sites or build up any momentum.  As soon as they get settled into a new incursion, a fleet comes along and "prematurely" kills the mom, sending the "caravan of the heavens" on its way again.  There have been a few patches where an incursion has lasted a day or two past the "Mobilizing" phase, but not many!

And the issue seems to be coming to a head this weekend.

Twenty hours ago as I write this, there were three high-sec Incursions.  Right now, just as the weekend kicks off in Europe, there are zero.  Call this the picture of the week:


The rage in the public incursion channels is fairly epic.  I think it's just possible that someone might do something rash.

Oh, and I'll just leave this here (name deleted to protect the guilty):
[ 2012.01.20 23:42:27 ] * > if I go in low sec to do that Almur incursion, they cant get my nightmare if I fit a cloak right ? :S

EDIT (21/Jan/2012): EVE News 24 has posted a terrific follow-up article on this issue.  Go read it.  It's very much worth your time.

33 comments:

  1. Now THIS could be fun and interesting.

    Most likely scenario: Incursionbears get ganked en masse (despite the VERY informative post you wrote for them on how to safely work in lowsec using techniques they already use), the flood of bear tears and ragequits causes CCP to "iterate" lowsec to become hisec unless you toggle your "PvP flag" or belong to FW, are in a wardec, etc. ;-)

    CCP lacks the fortitude, especially after the big Incarna thing, to stand by their decisions (even regarding the overall premise of their game, "PvP sandbox, with PvE content") if sufficient rage and tears, and especially unsubs, are brought to bear. (hehe, unintentional puns ftw)

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  2. The problem is people are just going to stop playing. For my 2nd acct I need incursions. Otherwise I can't afford it. I don't bot nor have 10-20 miners in null.

    This is one thing that could get me to quit Eve, because Plex allows you to have the F2P experience without the limitations of a F2P game.

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    1. Of course, Darius and his merry band of bittervets probably don't care if people quit the game because of their little project. Interesting question is whether CCP cares enough to change something...

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    2. I can only talk about Kill it with Fire, but there's no bittervets in our corp. Our two glorious leaders may be vets but very much enjoy the game.

      I don't care if people quit EVE because of that. As much as I would like as many player to join EVE, I know it's not meant for every one and in my opinion, unless you trade or manufacture modules and ships, HS activities shouldn't allow one to Plex 2 accounts.

      Delete
    3. I see no problem here. You can play EVE using one account just fine.

      Delete
  3. I giggled. Seriously though, I can't afford a plex either, so I pay a subscription on 2 accounts. And you know what, I can afford it by going out to eat one less time a month.

    This is the type of player generated content that brings life to Eve. I would love it if the Sansha attacks stopped entirely, abruptly for an unspecified period of time. Incursionbears might have to go back and do work.

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  4. That's brilliant, best griefing yet. I wonder if the bears will wardec Brick Squad and make hi sec too hot for them. Maybe that's something you could get involved in, Jester.

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  5. This really hurts the more casual incursions runners.
    Supper active people can move and be set up and still run some.
    Casual players moving so many jumps represents a large portion of their playtime. To have to move each day all for it to possible be shut down takes incursions off the menu for people who can only play for 2h a day due to real life.

    As a side note...the bears to relies their teers make this last longer.

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  6. It's like hulkageddon for the incursionbears. I can understand the frustration, but there's so much to do in this game there's no reason to cry over one being unavailable.

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  7. When the player channels made an agreement not to kill the incursion and "milk the mom", it was NOT a problem, but when a group of players who have equal rights to the incursion as anyone else band together and kill a perfectly legitimate target and thus end the incursion, all of the incursion runners start screaming.

    People speak as there was nothing before incursions. If you want to login for 3 hours a week and be able to plex your account with a 3 month old char you will need better and more clever ways. People have done it in the past and it is still viable today.

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    1. http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/07/not-all-curves-are-pretty.html

      i think the numbers immediately before and immediately after the incursion patch speak for themselves.

      Delete
  8. It's really Krissada's work. He had the idea[1] and managed to get together 3 different groups that had tried to grief incursion in the past: Bricks, Kill it with Fire[2] and The Skunkworks[3].

    Last week, we killed 1 Sansha motherships and force BTL to kill an other one. we were 39 pilots in fleet. The following day, we ran a blackbird fleet and then some suicide fleets in the only one, overcrowded HS incursion left. Darius III was hilarious. It was great fun flying with him and Krissada.

    During the week, we didn't have to come to HS. Luckily, goons came on their own and killed 2 Sansha motherships.

    Only taody, with great pleasure, we reform a fleet of 60 pilots with the same corps (and friends) and managed to kill the 2 HS sansha motherships. Once again, BTL helped us killing the second and last mom.

    I hope Incursion pilot (that are not NS bear in HS vacation) will use that break to explore other venues.

    @anonymous: you might want to look at wspace life. PVE and PVP is either at home or some few jump away. Look for a corp active in the time zone than yours.

    [1] https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=55792
    [2] http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Kill_It_With_Fire
    [3] http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/The_Skunkworks

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  9. After having waited for hours in pub channel to be picked up, I can't say I have any sympathy for the whining bears. They might just have to *gasp* play the game. Hell, joining the mom killing fleet might actually get me into a fleet in decent time for once.

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  10. I think this is an interesting case because it highlights how even unassuming game mechanics end up feeding the blob. What do I mean by this? Griefing tends to be asymmetric in that the aggressors are a dynamic force and can hit with impunity before melting away. A good example of this would be the ice-interdiction. Ice miners have to go to ice belts. They gather in a few, well known spots and their attackers are free to hit them and melt back into the universe. The attackers can move on to fresh targets and their victims can only seek revenge at great personal expense. In the rare cases when we have a large and identifiable aggressor suck as Brick or Goonswarm, their size insulates them from potential repercussions. Null sec wars might be motivated by petty hate and revenge, but it is easy to indulge those emotions when you have hundreds of like-minded pilots and a super cap fleet waiting at the bat-phone. The actions you can take as an individual are limited. Your best bet would be to join the largest alliance that is currently at war with whomever you hate. Simply restated, the costs of engaging in griefing are low, so we see lots of griefing. The costs of taking revenge as an individual is high, so we see it rarely. As a thought experiment I invite you to imagine a bounty system that actually worked and I would then ask you what impact you think it would have had on the ice-interdiction or the current griefing of incursion bears. If your retort is that they should sack up and invade nul-sec, I would politely suggest that when the cost of conflict is very high, you get less conflict and that is ultimately bad for a sandbox that depends upon player generated content.

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    1. Well said Karbox. I think the hisec bears are going about it all wrong when they simply cry about this form of griefing on the forums. It's a lose-lose situation for them.

      Instead, they should approach CCP from the angle you iterated; "CCP- you need to give us the proper tools to seek revenge. Otherwise, you create a sandbox that is lopsided ."

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    2. Problem here: you guys, like Jester, fail to see the larger psychosocial motivators for a "True Bear". Revenge to them, is not an option. True Bears, when wronged, do not seek redress themselves. They go to teachers, cops, civil court, etc, to have redress sought FOR THEM.
      In this case, they will "Go tell!!!" CCP and be angry when CCP doesn't "take action", and instead tells them "Well go hit him back!"
      I know, I used to be a True Bear, IRL and in this game. There's hope for everyone but it takes a lot of time, abuse, and self-reflection to ever truly cure yourself of True Carebearism.

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    3. If "True Bears" cant't "hit back", why they don't pay someone to revenge for them, or protect them? All these grinding sure get them enought isk for that?

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  11. at least now incursions are working as intended. maybe incursion runners will be lucky and because of this the rewards wont be lowered. rewards for incursion are high because there is supposed to be a risk of others being better and faster and takjng 'your' reward. now that there arent at least 3 incursions in HS up there is a lot more competition for the sites. finally working as intended.

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    1. @Anonymous

      You apparently have not run incursions or don't understand the logistics of attempting to run incursions in low-sec or null. Your statement "at least now incursions are working as intended..." is short-sighted at best or full of the typical ignorance and hate that has caused this whole incursion thing to blow way out of scope.

      The issue at hand has to do with the sense of entitlement that veteran players have over EVE. That includes everything from environment, to game mechanics, to ISK. This incursion interdiction is a classic example of the "cut your nose off to spite your face" idiom. Incursions brought pvp fleet combat to many hi-sec players; who otherwise would not have been exposed. Also it has created a generally good social atmosphere, and more importantly breathed some life into the game. The benefits of incursions far outweigh the non-validated risks.

      FYI...I have run a few incursions, but I spend most of my time in wh space, with the occasional roam thrown in for fun.

      Unfortunately this incursion interdiction will actually hurt EVE more than anything else.

      Delete
    2. maybe there are some ppl who will leave eve because of this but lets be honest. eve wasnt a game for them anyways if it just takes a bit of competition to drive them off.

      the good thing is that after the pvp aspect got into the high sec bearactivities through incursions they will now also see the competition aspect of eve and many people will adapt and turn towards low sec or maybe even 0.0 incursions. which makes everything a lot more interesting. even random fleets can adapt and manage lowsec and the involved pvp.

      it was never intended that incursions could be run 24/7 without any competition or losing a site every now and then. i know that the 115mil/hour quotes thrown around by many arent even close to being true considering the travel time or time to get into a fleet. but the activity lacked the competition aspect which is needed in eve

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  12. Working as intended you whiny incursion running bears.

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  13. I love, love, love this! I don't even mind the high ISK payout if HS Incursions, but not killing the mom for days on end so you can farm her support? And blacklisting people from Incursion fleets? Yeah, those have gotta go.

    This is exactly the kind of thing Eve is about...players banding together to engage other players.

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  14. So, am I the only one that thinks that (rather than altering Incursions) this illustrates the need for better wardec mechanics?

    Is there anything (besides carebear fear & crap wardec mechanics) stopping the Incursion runners from just wardeccing the people that make them mad and ganking them as soon as they enter the constellation?

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    1. Since there's no such thing as a monolithic Incursion Corp, Inc, yes, there is something stopping the Incursion runners (I wonder how many of these 'bears' are actually alts of low and null players) from wardeccing the griefers. I so hope wardec mechanics and Concord agression mechanics get a major overhaul, soon.

      That said, I do agree that something needs to be done to turn Incursions from massive ISK farms back to a dreaded event that makes a swift, massive response imperative to make the Incursion go away as fast as possible. These are supposed to be invasions of core Empire space and the playerbase treats them as uber missions.

      This whole vitriolic debate over who is more worthy of playing EVE is not only pointless, but harmful to the game and needs to stop.

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  15. Our lowsec fleet went unchallenged. The serious lack of NCOs kept the pay lower than usual, but it was another quiet night of isk farming.

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  16. Incursions are just one part of game, people use it, smart way or dumb, people missuse it. Just deal with it, if u cant afford to have 2nd, 3th ... account because same players are using game mechanic - well, stfu and emoragequit !!

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  17. I always wonder at how some EVE players feel the need to dictate how other EVE players should play EVE. The mind boggles.

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  18. I like how my cloaky nightmare troll went from the incursion channel to this blog, then EVE24.

    Jester, next time check the profile :p

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    1. LOL I took the comment for sarcasm, and I'm sure most everyone else did, too. If you find someone who didn't, my suggestion to you would be to exploit that. "Yep, cloaks keep you safe in low-sec systems. Meet me in Aulbres and I'll show you..."

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  19. [ 2012.01.20 23:42:26 ] Reppyk > if I go in low sec to do that Almur incursion, they cant get my nightmare if I fit a cloak right ? :S
    [ 2012.01.20 23:42:37 ] Jimmy Duce > right
    [ 2012.01.20 23:42:38 ]
    [ 2012.01.20 23:42:42 ] Jimmy Duce > and warp stabs

    Not everyone ;-)

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  20. Would be more fun if these elite pvps griefing these sites weren't hiding in NPC corps.

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    1. Next time you see a mom fleet take a good look, the aforementioned parties are mostly in their original corporations.

      And if you are so pvp-centric, why don't you go to their home ? Bricks are in Lowsec/Nullsec.

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  21. I'm not a supporter for making bears cry but something is wrong with this incursion. Maybe CCP will solve this "miss use". And i don't mean the too early mom kill.
    Farming a highsec disaster like an sansha incursion is like artificially delaying an rescue action of a sinking boat!
    Concord should stop paying for the smaller sites once some certain stage of retreat has been arrive.
    Also the incursion it self was a fine addition it should be less static and much more surprising than hitting the same waves of sansha over and over again.
    Even more LowSec or 0.0 Incursions wouldn't solve that problem. people don't go there and if they do it is all the same again just with some additional circumstances.

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