Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Monday, January 9, 2012

Quote of the Week: Ownership

Quote of the week this week comes from Batolemaeus on Failheap, which sums up one of the big problems with EVE Online sovereignty:
The problem is that actually living in a certain part of space should result in sov. But that's not the case.  On tq, actually living in space you own is completely optional. You gain dominance by superblob, not by staying in the area.

The funny/sad thing about sov is that in npc 0.0, sov works better. The ones who defeat their opposition in day-to-day operations will own a station because they've driven everyone else away. It's simple and rewards active organizations making a difference over large ones, and since permanent presence matters, picking up the batphone is quite a bit harder.
Yep.  And I'd say that Batolemaeus didn't take this far enough.

I've now "lived" for significant amounts of time in high-sec, low-sec, sov 0.0, and NPC 0.0.  And the quote above really describes how "sovereignty" in EVE should work.  "Ownership" of space in Syndicate is a good demonstration of this.  I've lived in Syndicate three times in my EVE career, most recently now with Rote Kapelle.  Nobody holds sov in Syndicate.  But you can't live in Syndicate for more than a few days before you learn that certain systems are owned by certain alliances.

For my own use, I made up a little map of the people I've run into in my TZ over the last four months or so and the areas where they tend to congregate.  It even looks sorta like a little sov map.  And the people that "hold" those constellations hold them far more forcefully than any sov-holding alliance I've been associated with, with the possible exception of Goons.(1)  Anyone who tries to move into Vestouve is going to find out really fast what a dim view Rooks and Kings holds of that idea, and God help you if you try to move into TXW with Rote.  ;-)  And this applied just as much -- maybe even moreso -- when I was in low-sec faction warfare.  There were definitely "home systems" for the corps involved in that.

These days, the only thing preventing people from moving into half of null is the fact that the owning corps and alliances can prevent it through the station ownership mechanic.  But those stations are so routinely cheap for purchase now that many of them -- maybe even most of them -- are devoid of life.  And in a lot of regions, far more people live in the NPC 0.0 stations in those regions than the owned ones.

I feel more and more that CCP should take a hard look at Perpetuum Online's "tug of war" sovereignty mechanic and adapt it for EVE.

(1) The Goons are really the only group that has the numbers to really populate the space they hold. 


  1. I've often made comments about wormholes, similar to the one you've made about npc null: we *really* hold our systems, and the fact that we hold it is a lot more meaningful, day-to-day, than the sov mechanics as they stand today. I'd never considering living in sov-null at this point; what a nightmare.

    Like many, I hope your thoughts about tug-of-war sov mechanics get picked up by CCP.

  2. Of all places, I think it's wormholes that have a the best 'Sov mechanic'.

    In a wormhole, you need to be in it to preserve your claim. If everyone leaves the system and the entrance collapses, then you've just lost it all. You can't have people just move in for a single day and move out the next and declare it their own.

    You install your POS, your home, you farm the sites, you explore the different neighbours daily. You're only visiting them though, at the end of the day, you go back home and settle for the night.
    Eventually you put up your POCO's in the wormhole, and at that point you're ready to do anything to save your little wormhole cottage from invaders. It's also very difficult to remove someone's control over a wormhole if they're already established. You need to sneak it, settle and build before you can wipe someone out properly (At least if the other corp isn't 100% vulnerable).

    This is why I love wormhole so much.

  3. Just read the Tug of War post. I think that even though Perpetuum has its faults, their "sov" system as described in that post is genius... and CCP should take a look at it.

  4. I was protecting some new(b)er friends while they were having fun mining in hisec. I've found a very good use for my talos:
    This! *bump* belt! *bump* is! *bump* mine!!1

    After which the exhumer is 20+ km from the nearest roid. So how to get this idea of tug-o'war, but still retain the ownership feel of nullsec? Throwing away everything you have because it's 'bad' will just result in a replacement. And we know CCP: 'bad' usually gets replaced with 'worse'...

    Dominion anyone?

    My solution would be an iteration on the current system indexes. And of course good iterations on sov holding that somehow (no answer here myself btw) give more opportunities. Like your (/avatar's) tug-o'war option...

  5. Jester you need to come to W space to get a feel for what real sov holding is.

  6. Taking this one step further. These alliances stop all non-alliance economic activity in these regions.

    The closest parallel in rl I can think of is North Korea. North Korea has basically shut itself off from the rest of the world, denying entry to virtually all foreigners. It doesn't seem to have done them much good.

    Its not a perfect analogy and it breaks down as these alliances can obviously trade in empire, but the point remains, it doesn't make sense that these alliances can profit from completely shutting down all territory they control from outsiders.

    Its a shame the game mechanics don't support any kind of 3rd party activity in null sec. Shouldn't these alliance profit from promoting all types of economic activities within their boarders?

  7. Very interesting.

    However you aren't referencing Dust514 at all, which is supposed to change how sov is taken and held.

    I've been pretty disappointed in the lack of info or interest the CSM has in Dust514...

  8. Couldn't agree more on actively holding sovereignty. That's what I mentioned just yesterday in the latest CCP survey, and today I find you blog about it. :)
    For people who don't get the newsletter, here is the address of the survey : http://crucible.questionpro.com/
    Just let them know what is good for the game ! ;)

  9. Personally, I don't see why CCP can't impose an incursion style mechanic for Sov.

    However it is initiated, (maybe you keep SBU's, maybe you don't).

    Once it has begun the defending team is blue, attacking Red. Blue team has it's advantages, cyno jamming, enhanced resists, (not incursion levels, but to give the defenders some advantage) I would keep the depressed bounties for the blue team to make sure they will fight too as it would happen but that's a side.

    Anyway, the red's effect the bar buy dominating the system, both in terms of ISK efficiency (meaning people just can't drop supers unsupported, as 1 super kill will wipe you out ISK wise, but also ratting and mining and occupancy.

    As the bar turns red, the home advantage slowly disappears until the bar is all red, in which case the ownership switches and then the other team would have to initiate a capture. You could also work into this a general, if no ratting/occupancy occurs in a system for a set duration the beginning defensive advantage is less, so home systems become harder to capture than fringe systems that are never lived in.

  10. As others have mentioned here you just summed up how ownership works in wormholes. My particular corp has a philosophy that all of WH space belongs to us. Of course luckily for everyone else involved we can only be in a limited number of systems at any given time due to random connections and our own player numbers. But if you connect to us, we own the resources in the connecting hole(your hole). And if you disagree with us, you are free to start playing Eve and enforce that we in fact do not own those resources and instead they belong to you, at least for now. ;)

    Part of the problem with sov as is are the notifications. Space is supposed to be big with lots of places to hide. When you know every POS that is erected everywhere it just makes things too easy. There is not enough fog of war in 0.0 sov space.

  11. "Its a shame the game mechanics don't support any kind of 3rd party activity in null sec. Shouldn't these alliance profit from promoting all types of economic activities within their boarders?"

    Is the new PI system a first step into promoting sov holders to invite others into their systems? Taxes, taxes, taxes. Value from ownership.

  12. I read that proposed solution and I don't like it. In the end it is just "yet another structure to grind". We don't need anymore of that!

    Worst even, if someone pulls the plug of a major alliance it will be even more unecessary work from the new owners to clear all the systems.

    What we need is that player activity generates sov points: shooting poses/outposts/other players, even bearing would grant some very low amount of points.

    Whoever has the most amount of sov points in a system earns sov there (but don't necessary gain outpost control, those need to be captured).

    These points would also decay at some 10% per day, so if the current owners don't keep the activity it soon becomes easy for newcomers to claim sov there.

  13. Being a lowsec FW dweller, I can't give an informed opinion on nullsec other than by what you've already described. That said, I'm in favour of player enforced sovereignty system rather than an arbitrary game limited system. What I mean is how you and others describe ownership, that it's something the players have regardless of the null sov mechanics. Amamake is not a place to fuck with the natives (much) for example. There's a few other systems that have a similar kind of vibe to it, that the natives will gloriously defend 'their' system with a carrier on a cane kind of thing.

    I don't think there needs to be much incentive by way of in game mechanics (resists bonus, cheap repairs, insurance, etc)

  14. Totally agree, was roaming TEST space a couple weeks back (who were deployed somewhere) and lol'd pretty hard at how empty it was, clearly they wouldn't control all of that space without broken sov mechanics. I live in syndicate with Flying Dangerous and we recently moved to Y9G (plz let Rote know so we can pewpew more with you guys <3). Pretty much hit the hornets nest of locals giving us 23/7 pvp while the "sov" of Y9G and area is fought over. We've also reinforced a number of POCOs (continue to do so) and had a handful of ours blown to bits - if there ever was a good war for actual control of space that is regularly used, this is it.

  15. Are there semi informal arrangments for getting in and out of your space? Additionally, who lives in those three unlabelled regions around Outer Ring?

  16. @Anon1506: Not that I'm aware of, but I'm not exactly an alliance diplomat.

    The map shown reflects my own experiences, and I haven't visited those three constellations yet.

  17. http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=64473


    Have we not been killing you guys enough already? I kid, I kid.

    I would be happy to start roaming down to your space more if you guys are going to put fleets in space. God knows it is about time someone put Raven Fed out on their asses. I am tiered of finding nothing but them hugging stations in Y9G.

  18. Your blog took me back to my roots

    Best time I ever had was when I was in small corp that had staked out an area close to Vestouve in Ausmeart/kenninck.

    We were small but we rigorously fought every comer even the local pirates the Red Skulls(good bunch of guys who went on to start the Gentleman's Club and Primary iirc).

    I compare that to my experience grinding sov in 0.0 pre/post dominion and there is just no comparison.

    Even though it was only low-sec we roamed up and down the pipe between npc 0.0 and hi-sec looking for trouble.

    It was a great time and we had a true sense of ownership even though we took gate gun fire every time we tried to defend "our" system.

  19. Everyone should also note that the Dev Blog that showed PvP activity, Syndicate had the most by a decent margin. On top of that only 1 of the top 5 regions with the most kill mails was not NPC space.

    If you want constant PvP, go to NPC 0.0. If you want to do nothing unless your super cap fleet is online and ready to go go do Player Sov space.

    Dated and could be better written but here was my main CSM election plank.


    More NPC space is a good thing for PvP. Problem is it looks like the current CSM is more interested in neutering NPC 0.0 and is defiantly going to be unwilling to disadvantage themselves by making Player Sov 0.0 a "reside to claim" holding system.

  20. The whole point of sov space is that you can build a castle and own land without defending it. If you have to defend it all the time, then it is worst than npc null outside of needs of CSAA and handful of ihub systems and no one would bother.

    Maybe that is not what most people have in mind when they think of the sov problem, but its true.


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