Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Friday, January 27, 2012

Strangled in the crib

A couple of days ago, I talked about one of EVE Online's mid-game problems and said that I'd be bringing up a second.

That problem, in a single word, is money.

Let's suppose you're a brand new EVE player.  Let's further suppose that you're smart enough off the bat to get yourself a full set of +3 implants and broadly set up your attributes so that you can train both offensive and support skills equally during your first year without worrying about remaps too much.  You find a blog from some dude named Jester who says that a good PvE target for a new to mid-level player is a Drake, and you train yourself into this ship.  At the end of 100 days, you can fly it.

At this point in the game, you've spent about 25 million ISK on skillbooks, about 25 million on a Drake hull, another 25 million fitting it, and a final 25 million ISK buying the various ships and mods that were needed to get you this far.  That's 100 million ISK total in your first hundred days playing EVE.  You have just short of five million SP.  Still, you're at the point where you can run L3 missions successfully and you can pull down between five and ten million ISK per hour doing so.  You plop down 3.6 million ISK for a Caldari Battleship skill book and set your eyes on a Raven, then decide you want to join a PvP corp.

You chat with the recruiters of various PvP corps and find out to your dismay that while they occasionally fly Drakes in combat, you're going to need a variety of other ships.  Over time, you decide that you're going to train Minmatar ships; that's what seems to be mentioned a lot.  One 0.0 corp you have your eye on says you'll need an Interceptor, a shield HAC, shield BCs, an alpha battleship, and it will be handy to have a Tengu for ratting.  After the corp learns you're nowhere near close to any of this, they suggest getting into L4 missions and someone points you at a Raven Navy Issue as a good ship to do these in.  It's then mentioned that sooner or later, you're going to need a carrier.

You do some reading, and decide you want to fly Stilettos, Vagabonds, Hurricanes, and Maelstroms.  Medium term, you'd like to get a Tengu, and initially not knowing their bad reputation, you set a longer term goal of getting into a Nidhoggur.  You bring up EVEMon and start adding skills to the queue.  You do a lot of research and load all the skills you're going to need to properly fly Interceptors, Heavy Assault Ships, and Minmatar Battlecruisers and Battleships, plus all of the relevant gunnery and support skills.

EVEMon lets you know that over the next 200 days, your SP total will rise from five million to 13 million.  But it also helpfully lets you know that you're going to have to raise another 75 million ISK for skill books.  One skill book, Heavy Assault Ships, is going to cost you almost 30 million ISK alone!  And you haven't even bought any of these ships yet...  A single fit Vagabond is going to cost you almost 200 million.  A single Maelstrom is going to cost you at least 250.  Fitted Hurricanes cost about 65 each and you're told you should have two or three of them.  Then it's explained to you that none of these ships count unless they're carrying expensive faction ammo.

In short, the PvP corp you want to join is letting you know that to join them, you're going to have to come up with nearly a billion ISK.  That's ten times the amount of money you've raised in your EVE career to date!  In your first hundred days, you needed to raise 100 million ISK.  But if you want to join a PvP corp on the modern EVE battlefield, in your second and third hundred days, you need to raise ten times as much.

Those instructions to look into L4 are seeming suddenly very relevant, but Ravens aren't exactly cheap: fitted, one of those will cost you 175 million ISK or so.  You hope the guy that told you that you should be a Raven Navy Issue was joking, because fitting one of those would cost you another half a billion...

God help you if you take the suggestions to get a Tengu or a carrier seriously at this stage in your career (hint: the skill-books alone to get into a carrier cost one billion ISK).  And all of this is for a single race.  Sooner or later, it's going to be explained to you that you should probably train for and buy some Amarr ships as well...  That's another whole set of skill books, because those Amarr ships use different guns, different mods, and different support skills.

This isn't a problem that EVE used to have.  A couple of years back, PvP corps would have been happy to accept a five or ten million SP pilot with a small stack of cruisers, a few BCs, and maybe a single expensive ship.  But over the last few years, there is one area that inflation has struck: the expectations of corps of their members, particularly their new members.  Where it used to be common to see corps recruiting for five or ten million SP pilots, these days the expectation is double or triple that.  And the new member had better have a good hangar full of ships right from day one.  The "single expensive ship" expectation these days in most PvP corps is a capital ship or a faction-fit strat cruiser.

Is it any surprise that so many EVE players are space-poor?  Is it any surprise that the most-asked question about EVE is "how do I make ISK?"  Is it any surprise that virtually every serious EVE player starts a second account?  Given the amounts of ISK that have to be raised so early in an EVE player's career, a second account is nearly a necessity.  All PvE in EVE happens more than twice as fast with two accounts working on it.  Ratting and missions go faster because two ships breaks the repairs of rats much more efficiently than one.  Mining goes faster when you have a hauler along.  But the second account needs skill books and ships, too, which means that while -- overall -- you come out ahead, you don't come out twice as far ahead.

And none of this takes into account a thousand incidental expenses that newer EVE players face: buying ammunition for missioning and implants and corp taxes and replacements for ships destroyed by early mistakes and ships purchased because they seemed cool but really weren't.  It goes on and on.  But at the center of it all are those skill books.  Skill books are the monkey on the back of the early EVE player.  The first few are cheap, costing only a few thousand ISK.  But the later ones cost more and more and more.  Two years down the line, you'll be spending hundreds of millions for a single book.  And while you can put off the purchase of a new ship for a while to grind up ISK, those skill books won't wait.  If you want to keep training, you have to come up with the ISK, and you have to come up with it on schedule.

And all of this assumes that you're paying for your one or two accounts with cash.  If you want to try paying for your accounts with PLEXes early in your career, the amount of ISK you'll need will feel overwhelming.

This would be bad enough if EVE PvE was fun.  But it's not.  Put into this context, it's not surprising that so many brand new EVE players try to get into incursion fleets right off.

Veteran EVE players forget this -- after all, when was the last time they had to buy a skill book?  Those most able to afford all those skill books don't need them.  Those most able to afford expensive ships rarely lose them.  Early EVE play does its level best to strangle new players in their crib.

42 comments:

  1. Eugh. The habit of most players to suggest "fly x or y pimp ship". It seems they lack knowledge for context. New players need good ships for their current activities.

    Regardless, this also depends on situation. I think your view, while mostly true, is heavily based on your own personal experience. Those of others could be vastly different.

    Ie. Joining goons/ being a unista. My corp took me in as a noob so my experience was very different.

    But yeah, in EVE you need to wage slave to have fun. It's messed up.

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    1. I'm not sure you can include Goons on that list any more. They want the pilots not in Drakes to be in Scorps or alpha Maelstroms. Both of these are pretty skill-intensive, expensive ships. Granted, though, the advantage of being a Goon is only only have to buy the first such ship.

      Delete
    2. I believe that goons do go to some pains to ensure that anybody can do something.

      BUT I admit that you are correct in illustrating a trend, even goons have higher shipping requirements.

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    3. Goons want people in tackle rifters initially. Then working the way up to hurricanes/drakes then scorpions/maelstroms. T2 isn't intially needed. Also, many corps, especially null sec, reimburse losses on fleets. This can minimize some of the hit (of course you will need a stable of ships).

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    4. Goons may want x or y but nothing is enforced. You can join with 100k SP and train only PI skills for a year if that is your ticket, although you'd probably get laughed at.

      I think you're over exaggerating the problem. Sure there are corps out there that have a mile long list of requirements but for every pretentious pvp corp there are two or more lowsec corps willing to give you a shot. Yea, getting into alliance level pvp can be a grind depending on who you know, but 'pvp' in general is pretty accessible.

      Delete
    5. Goons are also somewhat of a special case". Sure they have a great noob friendly attitude and programs, but they have to since they only recruit from an out of Eve community. So they really don't have the option (or don't take the option often) to demand high SP high ISK players. By definition a new goon will almost always be low SP low ISK.

      Delete
  2. I think you are being a little biased here. New player experiences can be pretty isolated from the old vets like yourselves. You start in high sec, mine in a cruiser, make 100k ISK and think you are Croesus. You spend so much time learning the basics (the cliff!) that you don't have time or interest to check out the "endgame" where Jester lives. Sure, you get can-flipped, maybe ganked, maybe wardecced but eventually (5-10mil SP)you understand what your game will be, then you join some specialist corps who will teach you.

    You surprise me that you are going about this in WoW fashion, as if the ability to fly certain ships are levels to "ding". They are not. You can have a blast in frigates. Personally, I have no desire to ever fly anything bigger than a BS for example. High cost of carrier skill book? Not my problem.

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    1. His post doesn't mean he's going in a WoW fashion (easy mode)...which is a tiring meme for people to constantly use.

      But it is tough for newbies and they are often fed all sorts of BS of how useful they can be in fleets. And don't forget the amount of griefing and wardeccing in hisec really makes it tough for new pilots to make a stable income. And no, I'm not asking for hisec to be safe. Just reinforcing what Jester said

      And btw- you're assuming the pilot is fortunate enough to join a decent pvp corp to begin with.

      Delete
  3. This is true (though maybe not to quite the same extent), even if you look specifically at the corps that are actively aiming to hire the newer players:

    http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewforum.php?f=66

    "Is it any surprise that virtually every serious EVE player starts a second account? Given the amounts of ISK that have to be raised so early in an EVE player's career, a second account is nearly a necessity"

    There's another problem embedded there - it's very difficult as a new pilot to work out what each account should train and shouldn't train to be maximally useful. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of veterans have one or two toons/accounts they no longer use because they ended up with a lot of redundancy somewhere.

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  4. I'm a new player (about six months) and you've pretty much summed up my eve career so far. I've got more than one account and for long periods I simply don't log on because I'm waiting for the 45 day skill plan for my bomber to finish so I can PVP with my corp. I really don't understand why CCP don't allow alts on the same account to train at a reduced rate, say half the skill points, I'd be far far FAR more active if they did.

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    1. I always thought training times should be allocated by thirds. You can assign part of the training (or none) to any character on an account. For example, I might assign 3/3 to a character to get him going. After a while I could split it 2/3 to 1/3 and get a hauler alt going. You should be able to st this up at log in screen and the set up affects the sp/hour calculations. A character using all of the training thirds would train exactly like today.

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  5. TBH Incursions are the worst way to raise cash if you are a newbie, take into account the most sough after shiptype in fleet, the Logistics, most logistic pilots are null-sec veterans altruist enough to train Logi 5 (50 days to perfect this skill alone), not to mention cruiser V and many other support skills.

    I agree that the entry level is a bit broken, but what's there to fix it? should incursions have an SP floor/ceiling??

    Still I adhere to the mantra which prays on the "i did all this, fuck them, they should suffer too"

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    1. You see a ton of newbies in the public incursion channels, trying to get into fleets with meta4 resists and meta2 weapons on T1 battleships. They only rarely succeed, but they try.

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    2. This is a problem with the incursion runners, not the newbies.

      A new player can be useful in ANY ship, and never need to fly a carrier, super, or titan.

      Two of the largest alliances in nullsec specfically recruit new players, get them in free rifters (or blackbirds, or destroyers) and get them involved at that level.

      I have friends who tell me they can run Incursions in T2 fit Hurricanes (in TEST) - and these are full-bounty LoSec incursions, not the empire ones. Who is elitist here?

      Goonswarm and TEST are two great examples of alliances who not only welcome new players, but shower them with ISK, ships, modules, and methods to make cash. Just because Rote Kapelle has you always flying ships that run at least 75m and up doesn't mean that's nullsec EVE, or endgame EVE. It is very close to being ~elitePvP~ and your articles recently sound more like someone who's frustrated with that than someone who understands the middle game. I hate flying Battleships (or larger ships, for that matter). At 62 million SP I'd rather be in an Interceptor, Assault Frigate, or maybe a Interdictor if I'm out in null. And I'm not spacerich. I couldn't afford to buy and fly the Maelstroms that Goonswarm is using in a fleet doctorine right now. Not more than one or two. For the price of ONE Maelstrom you can have TEN AFs or Inties - and have as much fun in the same fleet if it's a well-run operation.

      Your issue is with the alliances who believe that the quality of PvP is based on the price of the ship - and that is something the players need to realize, not something CCP might need to fix.

      Delete
    3. No reason a noob can get a fleet together and run scout sites with lower end ships. ISK and LP are low, but it could be considered "content".

      Delete
    4. TEST and Goons are the exception here, not the rule. But the net result of what you're saying is that TEST and GSF are, I believe, the biggest they've ever been. Who's able to shoot back at them?

      Delete
  6. For me its the other way around.

    My toon is 4 months old and I have enough funds to afford a T3 without selling plex or playing excessivly. (Not faction fit but T2 fit)

    But I havent found the time to train all the skills that I need.

    I want to fly an Ishtar next but I still need 2 weeks only to have all the skills trained to actually get into the pilot seat. I still need a few more support skills in order to actually be any good with it. And I am only concentrating on PvE and Gallente drone boats right now. Heaven help me if I actually wanted to train up some PvP skills or broaden my ship portfolio.

    I guess once you have the skills to fly several ships it gets easier to bear the waiting time for the other ships.
    But in the beginning I find it kind of frustrating.

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    1. Same here. ISK is supereasy to earn. You get more of enough no matter what you do.
      Mining, missions, exploration, trading...doesn't matter.
      But the skillpoint mountain is very frustrating.

      Delete
  7. Although I agree with the post, what is the answer? Remove skillbooks and just unlock skills as you met requirements to train them? Make all skillbooks some arbitrary price?

    @Splatus When corps/alliances/levels of mission require a certain hull to be even minimally effective, reaching hulls is functionally "dinging" a new level. If no one will take you until you have "leveled up" to a certain hull and fit, it is a progression mechanic, even if not hard coded into the game. As fun as frigs and dessies may be, you cannot take one into a L4 or incursion for two reasons. The hulls will fail, and no one will take you.

    Also, I know more than a few players with tens of millions of SP who still have no idea what game they are going to play because they refuse to be just one type of pilot. I think telling players they have to train to some tech two hull for 6 months just for them to find out they don't like it is more a waste than spending a year trying out various roles.

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    1. The "answer" is to discourage people from insisting on two-year training plans, focus on what they can do today: inspiration might come from St Mio's What to do in EVE Online. In addition, players can encourage each other to explore ways to make ISK to cover expenses, such as pointing out the Making ISK guide.

      EVE Online can be a fun game if you focus on what you can do today, rather than being perpetually focussed on what you want to be doing next year. Continually focussing on what you need to train will leave you forever in the mid-game where Jester thinks the 'problem' lies.

      Delete
  8. Joined 0.0 corp in my second week of eve. Currently flying official T1 Maelstroms and Huricanes in fleets at 3.5 mil SP. Made a ton of money ratting and salvagin in 0.0. Lost tons of (non reimbursed) maels&stuff to titan blobs and epic stupidity. Still have a ton of money.

    EVE Online: It's easy. If you know how.

    P.S. No mention of the Raiden titan that was killed on a full honest to God battlefield, by suicide dreads? And what that may mean for the future? Not even a little? The hate... show me on the doll where the goons touched you.

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  9. I'm at the point where I can fly nearly anything I want to, but looking back the struggle and wait to fly x ship was part of the fun.

    I think part of the problem is that we assume that newbies should get into massive blob warfare right away. We should try to steer them away from that at all costs, partly for the reasons you mentioned and partly because it's not like blob is fun anyways.

    There is a lot that a one-day old newbie can start to do and, given a corp not full of min-maxing sperg lords, can have fun, make isk, and NOT feel like they're worthless and unable to catch up.

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  10. One obvious suggestion is to treat the creation of skillbooks the same way we treat blueprints. Simple reason is that it brings a further element of EVE within the player driven economy. You could also make skillbooks the reward for faction warfare or some other such activity. Titans are supposed to be the flagships of the large empires, it makes sense they would reward their most decorated captains with the training books to fly them. One disadvantage of this approach is that it removes an isk sink from the game, but the magnitude of the effect is an empirical question.

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  11. For me what has been even worse than the isk cost is the logistical issues. I first flew with an alliance where the reimbursement guy was too scary so I just ratted isk, flew 30 jumps to high sec, bought a ship, flew 30 jumps back (occasionally dying on the way). I repeated that every time I lost a ship.

    More recently I joined a nullsec alliance a little better prepared. I had 10 Crows and 10 Drakes freightered down there. Then they wanted people in ECM ships so I got some Blackbirds. Freighter wasn't available so I manually piloted each one 35 jumps of high sec to the system nearest our gateway. Then they wanted AHACs which I can't fly (40m sp character). So I logged off for the night. Then they wanted stealth bombers which I can fly but which I didn't have. No ships were available on contracts locally.

    I liked the fights I was having with them but the gameplay was a set of russian dolls. The big russian doll contained 90% afk autopiloting and 10% "pvp". The pvp doll contained 90% roaming with no one to fight with 10% manoeuvering around an enemy. The next doll was 90% manoeuvering with 10% shooting/being shot at. So my pvp character spent hours online per week for a few seconds of pvp action.

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  12. In my oppinion, a new player can avoid many financial problems by moving into 0.0 as fast as possible. Of course, he might (and probably will) lose some stuff in his first few weeks, but if he survives that period he will probably makes loads of ISK (at least compared to running L1/L2/L3) be doing all these little to medium-sized anomalies that the 40 million SP Tengu/Macha/Carrier-pilots don't fly. I mean, there is just a ton of these.

    And still, almost all sov-holding alliances aren't that newbie-friendly. Of course, you may laugh about these 50 Rifter-pilots, but in a year or two you will face 30 of them in Maels, and in 5 years they will laugh about you when hotdropping you with their 15 Avatars. In the long term, newbie-support will always pay off.

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  13. Honestly I don't see a lot of alliances/corps that REQUIRE a large shipyard but at lot want you to work towards that and make it a priority. The confusion comes when the older players say things to the effect of 'you should have 10 combat ready ships and 5 bill in liquid isk' and the new players take that to mean right now. In my experience you CAN go to null with just a Drake and 100M isk in your wallet easy. It wont be easy and you will need to devote a serious amount of your time to rapidly improving in many areas (skills, your shipyard, your wallet,...) but it can be done. And many older players are willing to listen and help out it just takes a bit of effort on the part of new players to find the right group or person.

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    1. They don't require it officially, but I think you'll find that once you're in, and they're calling for people to fleet up, the newcomers who don't have the 'right' ships get told to stay docked. At least that's been my experience. I would have thought it better to get everyone flying in whatever they can bring while they work toward the desired fits. Alas, that attitude seems very few and far between.

      It's approaching enough to make me want to go back to being a high-sec carebear.

      Delete
  14. In a post where you bemoan the need for ISK and the ability to make ISK, you don't point people towards the Making ISK guide? Shame on you, rabble rousing obstructionist!

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    1. You know... it JUST occurred to me to ask this. There are approximately a dozen major guides that I know of about how to make ISK in EVE Online. Just that, and nothing else.

      How many such guides are there for other MMOs, WoW in particular? You or anyone else know? DO other MMOs have guides specifically tailored to this issue?

      Delete
    2. When I was playing WoW there were a half dozen guides on how to make gold quickly: most ended up being, "run the daily quests, disenchant everything you can't sell, play the auction house".

      There were a half dozen guides on how to level characters quickly: one even made it into an add-on called Quest Helper or some such, which would display a huge arrow on the screen to show you where to go to do this quest, which NPC to talk to, which taxi to take, etc.

      But the short answer: yes, when I played WoW there were many guides on how to get rich in WoW.

      There were also many players who bemoaned the fact that raiding cost lots of gold, and that the mid-game of WoW was all about acquiring gold to fund your future raiding habit. Or that it was painful to have to complete these quests in order to get to the "end game" because those quests were the ones that provided the best pre-raid item for slot X on class Y.

      Oh, and the guides for preparing for raiding! Wow! If you're class X, you need to follow talent spec Y until level Z, then switch to talent spec W for this quest chain, then you have the best pre-raid items for those slots and off you go!

      I was in a guild called The Cheesemongers. We started raiding with the release of 10-man raids, and beat our first boss in Karazhan with gear far below what other guilds were requiring of their rookies. There is not only one way to beat each raid encounter. There is not only one way to play World of Warcraft. The same applies to EVE Online.

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    3. PS: http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Gold-in-World-of-Warcraft - this is a typical "how to make gold in WoW" guide. That guide is simple because the economy in WoW is very simple. Farm mats, arrange with friends to have access to the various transmutation cool downs that everyone has but no-one actually uses, profit.

      Auctioneer was a godsend for me: just scan the auction house, buy the cheap stuff, disenchant it, sell the enchantment mats. A few hours of that a week and I never had to worry about gold ever again. I could chuckle at the folks on the forums claiming that it was too hard to farm gold, because I knew just how easy it was to make enough to keep me active.

      In EVE Online, I scan the market, buy the cheap stuff, (optionally) reprocess it, sell the result. I chuckle at the folks on the forums and blogs who claim that it's too hard to make ISK, because I know just how easy it is to make enough to remain active.

      The only caveat is that if you're not swimming in ISK already, I would recommend not trying to pay your subscription with PLEX. That 500M a month would be better spend on exploding other people's spaceships.

      Delete
  15. I'm a 2 month old toon living in 0.0 and it is hard to make isk. Especially if the only part of the game that I enjoy is PVP

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    1. Grab a battlecruiser, head out to your local asteroid belts. I was making 60M ISK/hr in a poorly fit drake with no experience living in null sec.

      Beyond that, explore the options from the Making ISK guide that apply to null sec.

      Delete
  16. I'd argue that RvB is the most noob-friendly and affordable PVP, since they don't require any specific fits and cheap frig fights are by far the most common PVP. Anyone can fly anything they want (or can afford) to fly in a low sec roam - even fail fits are ok. They also arrange battles where everyone is required to fit T1 only, which is a lot more fun for low SP pilots.

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  17. hey you are forgetting the fact that any alliance worth a shit has some sort of reimbursement program, unless you can't afford the paltry $15 a month, you really don't "need" billions of isk
    there is nothing that annoys me than the 2 months old noob that come and join this game and loudly proclaim that their only goal is to plex the game every month, and needs to grind the daily hours till it's no damn fun anymore
    also all the things you mentioned, there is no fix to it, what can you do? insta skill? $ for sp?
    what you have described is simply the huge array of choices you have to make in eve, because you can't do all of them (shiptypes to train for which ones first which ones later for pve or pvp etc)

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  18. Fortunately, I've never had the problem of earning ISK.

    I stumbled across salvaging, in the first couple weeks of playing the game, which paid for all of my skill books and ships, no problem.

    Salvaging is still one of the best ways to make easy ISK, esp. for new players, since the required skills only take a week or so to train up.

    T2 salvage, from player wrecks, is the cat's meow - a single AF can drop 15M ISK of T2 salvage. A single roam through low sec with a fast salvage boat can net a couple hundred million ISK in T2 salvage.

    Salvaging also probably has the highest payoff-to-risk ratio and the highest payoff-to-SP ratio in the game. A salvage alt requires a week or two of skill training, and a T1 frig, equipped with T1 salvagers plus salvage rigs. When/if you get popped and/or podded, no big deal. The ship is cheap, even w/o insurance, and a salvage alt can use the no-cost alpha clone.

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  19. i'm a wow millionaire who came to eve about 8 months ago. i was bored of the wow ecconomy. i set my self a challenge to activate with PLEX.

    i played 3x 30 day trials. i overlapped them to transfer assets as each expired. i was mining in osprey to build capital and then was station trading ammo in Dodixie.

    at the end of 8 weeks i had earned ~470m isk and PLEXed a new 21 day buddy trial. so i had 51 day activated account and i was also lucky enough to find a helpful and trustworthy player to give me the PLEX reward from the buddy program which i put aside to pay the next 30 days.

    in those 81 days i trained for and bought a hulk (biggest mistake) and a maelstrom to do lvl 4s. while i trained for both these i flew a thrasher / hurricane in lvl 1s and 3s. and was easily able to plex my next month.

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  20. "hile i trained for both these i flew a thrasher / hurricane in lvl 1s and 3s. and was easily able to plex my next month." Yes....for how many hours a day of grinding? ;-) THAT is the question...
    I'd rather pony up the $15 and spend my time doing "fun" stuff (like making that T2 salvage the guy above was writing about) with this thing that is, you know, a GAME (as opposed to "just work").

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  21. Not true. ISK is not an issue.
    I started EVE in May 2001, so I am well under 1 year old. Together with 2 friends.
    Never did I have ISK problems. And I have quite some ships in my hangar that are worth almost 1 Billion (US Billion) ISK each.
    And recently we went to 0.0, built a POS etc etc. ISK is not an issue at all. What is an issue is the skill points. The gap to older players is much too wide to compete. Maybe in the first year skillpoints should be gained 100% faster? That would help.

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  22. I don't know if you suggest anything here or just want to point out something.
    But if there is anything that needs a change it does not involve ccp but the perception of veteran players corporation CEOs and alliance leaders.
    A few years a go a new alliance started to terrorize the older alliances with swarms of small and cheap fleets. They worked because they had numbers but most of it i guess it was "the had FUN!". It doesn't matter if your guy can fly all those shine ships. He needs to have fun playing the game else he won't show up.

    Further more the newer players in my corp never complained about having no isk. Almost a shame to admit but most of them have more money than my self and I'm playing for nearly 6 years now.
    I never cared for having tons of isk and i don't care about my stats either. If loosing a ship was fun it was worth the effort.

    TL;DR: Don't see any problem here. In that point eve is close to RL. It is hard in many points but that keeps us safe from hordes of wow-kiddies.

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    1. ^ this

      The mid-game problem is entirely perceptual. One might even suggest that it was psycho-somatic (i.e.: you are having problems in mid game because you're told mid game is a problem, and worst of all you believe there exists such a thing as the mid game)

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  23. Its funny, my mid-game (and early-game) problem was always a lack of SP, not ISK.

    Mind you, i was rolling in ISK after only a few weeks of training by ninja salvaging/looting, which is almost as profitable as running the missions yourself (because you can do more sites than the mission runner, even if you get less from o single mission, ofc).

    And now i am a big time trader, so i make more ISK/hour than even running incursions.

    But even though i could buy and fit several shiny pirate battleships or T3 cruisers, it will be ... months and years before i can actually fly them with any degree of competence.

    So, I'd say the mid-game problem of eve is a mismatch between expectations/desires and either ISK or SP.

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