Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Wednesday, February 22, 2012

Comment of the Week: Last word

Seleene took exception to my comments attached to my endorsement post.  I'm not going to try to refute it point-for-point.  I am, in fact, going to give Seleene the last word and quote his comment in its entirety.  I will, however, refute one point and let that stand for the rest: Seleene mentions below that in June, the CSM was busy with torches and pitchforks, and he got 32k hits on his blog.  I remember being rather aggravated with Seleene back in June, and I reviewed my own blog posts to remember why.  It turns out that some of the CSM was actually doing work in June... on a little thing called the May Summit minutes.  Let's go with Trebor's account of who was actually doing that work, shall we?
Delivered: Trebor 7, Mittens 4, Vile Rat 2, Two Step 2
Assigned but not delivered: Elise Randolph 3, Killer2 1, Diagoras 1
At the time, I said of this, "Feel free to use this information for your CSM7 voting needs."

In late June, at the height of the Summer of Rage, I agree, Seleene got back to business: all of his posts were posted starting three days after my post above over the course of five days, the five days that anchored the Summer of Rage.  His first posts after a month of nothing.  And those were his last posts for two more months.

Again, I like Seleene.  I respect Seleene.  He's a great guy, great to talk to, extremely knowledgeable about the game, has an excellent perspective on the game, and all the rest.  As Trebor correctly says in his own endorsement of Seleene, a vote for him will not be wasted.  He's almost certainly going to win a full CSM seat regardless of what I think.  But for my endorsements, I had to pick the seven people I most want to see in those top seven seats, without getting emotionally involved.  It was hard.  It was damned hard!  Seleene didn't make the cut.  Do I want Seleene on CSM7?  Yes, absolutely.  But if I had my way, he'd come in eighth.

If I get emotionally involved in my endorsements, I endorse Seleene and I don't endorse Mittens.

As for the rest, again, I will give Seleene the last word.  Here it is:
Okay, I don't mind the 'endorsement' bit, but your given explanations are just off the reservation m8.

First off, I'm kinda confused as to how ANY of us could have wasted the "first few months" considering we spent the first few months in a near daily fight with CCP over... ummm... everything. That just doesn't make any sense at all. Within a month of taking office, we were in Iceland. Within weeks after that, EVE exploded into torches and pitchforks. My blog had over 5k hits in April and May. It had nearly 32k hits in June.

No, I do not blog with regularity but I do try to make it a point to do so when major events involving the CSM take place. It's a CSM blog, and it was still more detailed in terms of actual CSM events than any other candidate.

Additionally, as with other CSM 6 members, the advent of the Skype channel with CCP means that there is quite a lot that goes on which you cannot see. I know that this is a sore spot with many people, but short of copy / pasting some of that stuff, there isn't really a way to reflect efforts made there.

You say that I 'lost my focus'? How does that reconcile with the corner EVE has turned in the past 4-5 months? If anything, because of everything that went down, my focus has gotten sharper, as has that of the other serving CSM members. This comment feels as if you took something I said to you in confidence and then turned into something else.

As for my 'heart not being in this'... I don't even know what to say. What sane person that has been a developer for the game, been to Iceland countless times already and has nothing to really gain by running (fame? money? a pony?) would do this again whose heart wasn't 150% 'in it'? My heart is just fine, m8. As for being happy with an alt position, if that's where I land, fine. I won't be happy about it, but I won't work any less hard because of it.

I honestly feel as if you have taken part of the recent conversation that we had, along with other past comments, and let my willingness to be very blunt and open about certain things color your thoughts. As I said, the 'endorsement' bit isn't what I'm upset about; it's your perception of my dedication to this that I take issue with. Now you can dissect that assertion all you want, but nothing you say is going to change the fact that I feel completely sucker punched by some of your recent comments.

You can say whatever you want about what you think has or has not been done but questioning where my HEART is with regard to all of this? You have GOT to be joking?? :(

BTW - If you've been following the RU community at all, you'd know that Death is being trolled to oblivion and beyond and his chances of re-election are, sadly, not so great.

15 comments:

  1. Seleene needs to pull out that quote that he threatened to borrow, right about now :P

    Aw hell, here it is:

    'As for Seleene's comments about "getting things done" — yes, at least under this CSM the trains ran on time. Pity noone knew where the stations where, what time the trains ran, or where the damned things were going.'

    From my perspective, the near vacuum of feedback from the CSM6 was a damning indictment of their own self-involvement. All someone needed to say was, "While we're busy trying to help CCP wipe the shit off the walls, they're still throwing more into the fan to see which wall it sticks to."

    So Seleene, when people say that it doesn't look like your heart was in the right place, just consider that operating in an information vacuum means your support base is getting sucked away.

    Sure, you folk are all busy on the private Skype channel. We don't have access to that. We need to hear what's going on, beyond a video showing Alex sitting smugly next to Arnar and telling us everything's fine.

    Something material could simply be a mention that discussions were had about something that CCP is hoping to release a blog on in the next week and we're all excited about it.

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    1. Mara, I've touched on this in my other reply below. The fact of the matter is that during the summer months especially, there simply wasn't much to report about. There was a long period of 'nothing to see here' going on over those 8+ weeks. The other part of it was that CCP themselves were going through a lot of internal changes that the CSM was peripherally aware of but couldn't comment on or even hint at. We knew Hilmar's letter was in the works before it came out, but we couldn't talk about that either.

      A big part of the 'silences' that took place was that many of us were hoping against hope that CCP would wake up and change course. When we realized that wasn't going to happen was when we started blogging, talking to trade sites and turning up the heat again.

      Could we have done a better job? Probably so, but we did as well as we could based on what we knew at the time. Both CSM 5 and CSM 6 had to face some unique challenges over our terms, things that I sincerely hope CSM 7 will not have to deal with.

      Delete
    2. I have to give you credit for posting about stuff that was interesting at times.

      Trebor's prioritisation threads were popular because it was an extremely visible interaction between CSM and the community. Have those simply gone by the wayside because Alex decided they were useless, CSM decided they were useless, or Cthulu deemed it so?

      Delete
  2. This post reinforces why your blog is where I turn for interesting perspectives on Eve.

    I don't always agree with you Jester, but I really like your style.

    Pure class!

    Keep up the good work,

    Z

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  3. If you don't get emotionally involved in the decisions that affect your (game) life, you might as well be a robot. I can't quite put my finger on why your stance regarding Seleene irritates me so much. It is likely that my opinion is colored by my acquaintance with him and support of his candidacy, but for whatever reason I'm left with a vague feeling that you have betrayed him in favor of someone you don't appear to even know nor whom has ever given you any valuable personal time to help you make a decision about how to commit your time over the next year.

    For sure, I am often guilty of consulting emotion over logic. It's just how I roll. Plus perhaps there were extenuating circumstances that you failed to investigate or consider (you may recall that it was mentioned last summer by Trebor, myself, and others that Seleene was dealing with some RL family matters). Either way, friends matter to me and fwiw, I've lost some respect for you as a result.

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    1. Not going to say anything about the rest of your comment, but that last bit about Seleene's RL makes no sense. The fact that he had to resolve family matters is more than understandable and we can all sympathize, but I don't think it should be used to justify Seleene's performance as a CSM member, especially in view of the coming election, considering that nothing says the same thing will not happen again.

      I'm not saying that we should not endorse him because ZOMG-he put family before CSM!?!, but i am pointing out that one should only consider the performance of the candidate and his campaign, and not external to EVE factors. I think it's up to Seleene to make sure that if he is less active during one period of time, to make up for it in the other periods so much that people forget about the first.

      Delete
    2. And I say that if you're going to target a candidate for non-performance, then you should apply the same analysis criteria to all the candidates across the board. How many posts did Death make on HIS blog? Oh wait, the domain is no longer active (and he doesn't even appear to have one now). Right.

      Delete
  4. I am really losing quite a bit of respect for you jester, between your unfathomable crys for nerfbat supers when you have never flown them, to your outright defending complete morons on the rote billboard comments. To now throwing a friend under the bus over what seems like private conversations you had with him. You say you are in an upper management position irl I can only imaging what an unfathomable ass you must be to work for.

    Zandramus

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  5. Wow Jester, you really seem to have upset the applecart ;) Personally I'm fully behind you on this and I can see exactly where you are coming from. Seleene has ultimately had an oppourtunity to represent the playerbase and unlike your endorsements he cannot really show that much for it. Only now, just before elections, is he talking a big game about all his achievements and how busy he was influencing CCP...

    A vote for Seleene is a fairly SAFE vote I suppose, but I agree that his slot would better go to someone more likely to actively persue positive change in New Eden. I don't agree with most of what mittens says, does or thinks - but I do appreciate that some people do and to his credit he does actually see it through. Seleene on the other hand doesn't seem to stand for all that much. He has time to write witty retorts on your blog during election season - but apparently can't find time to write a 2-3 paragraph entry on his blog for 2 months during the summer of rage...

    Seleene if you read this, don't be upset at your old mate Jester - be upset with yourself.

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  6. Well, they are your endorsements, and you can do with them what you like.

    But I have to go with Carole on this. It seems you took something Seleene discussed with you privately and somehow turned it into a disqualifier in public. And now you're trying to have your cake (still be friends and the like) and eat it too (still slag off one of the few people on the CSM who'd want to discuss things with you on the level privately). If this is how you treat your so-called friends I'd hate to think how you treat the people you don't like!

    It is really hit and miss with you, isn't it? Sometimes you seem to get it right, and sometimes it seems like you can't see the forest for the trees. It is sad really, but yeah, you just lost a lot of respect there. So much for the 'great negotiator'.

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    1. I'm pretty sure he intended to choose seven candidates who could best represent the overall of the Eve population, while still mixing known and new faces.

      Tuff choices.

      You can argue about the reasons he have presented, not the choices. After all, they are his own.

      Delete
  7. I like you too, Jester. I think your blog is rapidly becoming one of the best things about the EVE community; there is not a day goes by that I don't check it. I don't care if we agree or disagree, it's good to see people like you putting this level of effort in. However, now that you've given me my own blog entry, I'm going to point out that you're avoiding the main point I brought up - you are still talking about blogs and minutes whereas I took issue with your comments about my 'heart' not being in it and that still boggles a bit. As to your other point:

    I suck at doing the minutes. No, excuses, plain and simple. I'm in awe of people that can watch the summits through that little flip camera and then put down anything very coherent. What's more, during the first two summits I would not have had the time to sit down and do them justice anyway, which I'll get to in a moment. Trebor did the lion's share of the work on the minutes and I did what I could to get info out into the world while everyone was waiting on them. That was good enough for us.

    You're talking about my blogging activity again. DUDE, seriously, how many other CSM's even HAVE a CSM blog? Of those that do, how many were updated or as detailed as my posts were? You are banging a drum on something that I'd argue I actually have a better record on overall than most others. Your blog is popular because you obviously DO have the time, plus it is a more 'EVE' related blog than CSM specific. Perhaps one day I will turn my own into something similar with grand stories of the good ole days and updates about how PL whelped a supercap fleet.

    I could not attend the Emergency Summit due to a family medical issue that also kept me quite occupied, quite coincidentally, for the next couple of months. Even if this were not the case, when EVE 'blew up', I was as active as I could possibly be while still doing as much as possible in the background. I understand the desire for more 'finger on the pulse' short posts, but there is only so much time in the day. But then you make a point of saying that, "And those were his last posts for two more months." After the emergency summit, what more was there to be said, really? Just how many posts or comments can be made to the effect that, "CCP is really fucking up. EVE is going to shit and I want to stab someone about it." ?

    CCP as a company traditionally doesn't exist during the summer and around Christmas. The offices are empty for weeks as key folks take their vacations and stay that way until it's time for release planning again in August. All the ranting / blogging / posting in the world is pointless because there is no one to listen (as if they were at that time anyway).

    This is your part of the internet and I get the gist of what you are saying and your point of view. So, for me, here is the crux of it:

    By my own addmission I am a terrible 'politician' in that I don't play the EVE meta game very well (at all really) and I lack, as another CSM member so eloquently put it, the "soulless cynic with a ruthless streak" quality needed. Any pre-tense of running as 'Seleene' was beat out of me long ago. I'm just a guy with an interesting history playing / working on the game, putting my opinions out there and offering to put what free time I have to work for the player base. Of all the canidates running, my 'heart' is pretty much on my sleeve because I have no hidden agendas or motives for more 'free trips to Iceland'. I'm doing this because I love it, and I would NOT be running again unless I believed CCP had turned a corner in how they are doing things.

    If you want to discuss any of this in more detail, you know where to find me. :)

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  8. Jester, much as I appreciate and agree with a lot of what you write, in this case, you've gone off the rails. Mark (Seleene) was one of the most effective members of CSM6; he doesn't give a shit about getting credit for stuff getting done, he just cares that stuff gets done, and that CCP deploys their resources efficiently to provide improvements for the whole community.

    I don't think you'll find a single member of the CSM -- or CCP dev -- whose opinion you respect that will have anything less than unreserved praise for how much *effort* he put in.

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  9. Simply put jester, u shud have been a lot more sensitive approaching this issue. the end.

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  10. Whether shrewd politics or coincidence, it seems to me that Jester has actually done 'his friend' quite a big favour with these two posts about Seleene (combined with the comments).

    I've followed Jester's blog for the last year or so, but know little more about Seleene than I've read here.

    They say all publicity is good publicity no matter the content and it seems to have worked here on me. I didn't take away anything particularly negative about Seleene from what Jester said, but combined with his 'heart on sleeve' replies and no Jester to vote for, I'm certainly looking at my vote in that direction much more than I would have before these posts.

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