Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Thursday, February 16, 2012

It's a tough old world out there

Viper: Now I'm not gonna sit here and blow sunshine up your ass, Lieutenant.  A good pilot is compelled to evaluate what's happened, so he can apply what he's learned.
The other day, I was pointed a the following two kill-mails, both from EVE University.  Here's one:

Here's the other:

Ignore the ships involved and focus on the comments.  The first one is a direct order from a senior EVE University member demanding an explanation for a ship loss.  The second is the pilot losing the ship immediately explaining what happened.  I was asked what I thought about this.  It's an easy question.

I approve of it completely, in both cases.

Almost exactly a year ago now, I wrote a "kill of the week" post that nevertheless focused on this issue.  I concluded that post:
A key lesson to be learned from EVE is that every engagement, even a minor inconclusive one like this, is a good opportunity to self-analyze.  Judge how you did.  Decide how you could have done better.  Learn from your mistakes.
The point to that post was that after a fight in EVE, it's critical to sit down and evaluate your own performance.  What did you do right?  What could you have done better?  If you lose the ship, trace the cause of the loss back to the root: why did you lose the ship?  Every ship loss can be traced back to something you yourself did, and maybe that something was a conscious choice.  But it always comes back to your actions and not anyone else's.

In the U.S. these days, it's fashionable to give kids in competitions certificates, ribbons, or even trophies for participation.  "Nobody's a loser" is the hidden message here.  Even worse, a critical emotion is being lost: shame.  Kids are often discouraged away from feeling shame for mistakes or poor performance.  But, in my opinion, shame and self-evaluation after a loss are a critical part of the long-term success of the human race.  There are very few successful people in life that haven't had to stare failure in the face, not once, but many times.  If you expect to be successful, you'd better do the same: learn from failure.

But hell, learn from success as well.  After every fight, sit down and evaluate your own performance.  It's the rare engagement where you'll conclude you did everything right.

So, yes, I thoroughly approve of this kind of self-evaluation.  I also approve of others jumping in to offer suggestions and advice.  And I approve of demanding explanations when someone does something they clearly should not have done.  "Nobody's a loser" clearly doesn't apply in EVE.  And being ashamed of yourself will often prevent you from making the same mistake twice.

Think your alliance is tough about this?  Rote Kapelle is famously vicious about attacking bad fittings, bad decisions, and bad piloting.  And if you try to defend actions that are clearly dumb, you can sometimes find yourself hounded right out of the alliance as a result.  After nearly every roam, either an "after-action" discussion on Teamspeak immediately follows, or an after-action report (AAR) is posted on the Rote forums, and the judgments in these AARs are almost always quick, logical, and brutally honest.  This applies to loss-mails as well.  Here's a good example of this in action...

Strong emotions -- including strong negative emotions -- engage long-term memory.  If someone has to shame you to get you to remember you did something dumb and make sure you never do it again...  You know, it's a tough old world out there and that's the right choice.  In today's business world, for instance, you're not going to get far if you're not willing to own up to your mistakes.  "Learn from your mistakes" and "HTFU" are often good advice for life as well as EVE.

But in EVE, these two lessons are critical survival traits.


  1. Ok, I understood what Dominus tried to do, but why didn't he try that using something that doesn't cost half a billion? Just to make his ship look more like a bait?

  2. Jester,

    The last comment in the Rote Kapelle KM says everything that needs to be said about where you go wrong here. Yes losses should be gone over, so should wins, there's always something to learn. Don't air your shit in public. It is demeaning to the pilot and weakens the espirit de corps of the entity in question. No matter how heroic the victory or ignominious the loss you shouldn't chestbeat or browbeat people in public. They can get their accolades or admonishments in a setting more apropriate that doesn't make them look even more like asshats than any killmails could.

    1. I believe that is one thing that makes us unique, airing the dirty laundry in public. Things work differently here and that appeals to the people who have stuck with the alliance.

    2. I get what you're saying. But for the alternate perspective, see my comment to StevieTopSiders below.

  3. I demand to know why you brought cargo expander I, to low sec. Those are a restricted module during war and you are just giving our enemies priceless and useful mods, to use against us.

  4. Read the Rote one comments. Between all the "faggots", "derpsheep", and "fuck u"s, I think I got that that guy is the stupidest motherfucker in your alliance.
    Oh, and during a wardec he was doing something besides being out for blood. <-- ok, that's a lil derp, but fuck man...we're under CONSTANT wardec, all the time, 24/7, apparently 365, too. Just means more vigilance and staying away from where the WTs hang out usually.
    As I write this, I'm parked in a hisec station bearing up some LP for moar faction ammos to take back to null and hopefully use blowing someone up.
    Someone post a derpsheep for me.

    As someone who does AARs all too frequently, in a professional capacity, and over real life things that can get real life people's real lives ENDED, I can tell you that while "honest, unbiased self-assessment" is part of a good AAR--name-calling, blame-gaming, finger-pointing, and telling someone they're a stupid fuckwad, is not.

    That's not to say you should hand them a "Hey, You Tried, Sunshine!" trophy, but you also don't go off the deep end and tear them a new asshole publicly.
    What ever happened to "praise in public, reprimand in private"?

    As for never fucking up, how are people supposed to learn? You don't just jump in a PvP fit ship and become The Next Starfighter right off. That "taking to it instantly, I don't know how he did it" shit only works in bad Lucas prequels.

    Maybe I'm mis-reading you somehow, but as it is you look a lil two-faced: on one end slamming R&K for their "risk averse" play style, but when someone DOES try something and fail, you encourage people to rip on them for it...

    -signed, the World's Most Fail PvPer (excepting Socratic)

  5. Geeh, Rote Capel really know how to sound like jerks :/

  6. I want to add, being in a wormhole, it's very difficult to prevent all lost. You never know if there's a cloakie ship waiting to tackle you while you're doing sites.

    While there's ways to reduce the vulnerability, it's not always efficient. My CEO once insulted my legion for being so flimsy, but that same Legion could do pve in the most efficient way in a C2 wormhole.

    So sure, I might lose the Legion eventually and my CEO will bitch, but when that happens, I'll have the legion repaid 10 folds (and faster than with a pvp oriented fit).

  7. When I was in Eve University fleet commanders were required to post AARs. Besides some of them being pretty entertaining I thought we got to learn some things in the following discussions. The Uni may be a different case since people join in order to learn, so people may be more open to criticism since they are trying to learn.

  8. Wow.

    I never wanna be "elite PvP" if it means that I have those autistic spegers commenting on my killmails...

    I like how you try and defend it, though.

    1. ::shrugs:: Rote and similar alliances aren't for everyone. I've said that before. You can either take harsh criticism in public and learn from it, or you can't.

      But if you can't take harsh criticism in public, don't be a politician, senior business leader, movie star, TV personality, scientist, inventor, engineer, sports figure, writer, singer, artist, senior military officer, or anyone else who's likely to be remembered more than 25 minutes after you're dead.

      As I said, it's a tough old world out there.

    2. "politician, senior business leader, movie star, TV personality, scientist, inventor, engineer, sports figure, writer, singer, artist, senior military officer"

      Urm yeah. What are you trying to do with your killboard comments? Berate everyone until people are scared and risk averse or actually help them to learn something?

      Take your first example profession - public berating has really improved politics hasn't it? Or didn't you notice when all politicians started to speak in bland non-specifics to avoid any sort of criticism.

      This isn't real life you know, just ones and zeros.

    3. I think the issue is that you present Rote Capel as a corporation of mature people, but they certainly don't act like it. They sound really obnoxious in their comments.

      Do you think it's necessary to insult people when you're trying to show them their mistake?

    4. Elite PVP in EvE:

      The same as being a politician, senior business leader, movie star, TV personality, scientist, inventor, engineer, sports figure, writer, singer, artist or senior military officer.

      What a bunch of sperging fucking assholes. Fly some shitfits and have fun, laugh about it aftewards.

    5. Guess I should have added "blogger" to the list. ;-)

      Seriously, people are avoiding my main point, and I think they even realize it. Whether you call this "elite PvP" or not, whether you attach the tildes to that phrase or not, public comment and even public disparagement of loss-mails is part of the game.

      What do you think the Kill of the Week posts are about, after all? They get read just as much as anything else around here, and I often spend them publicly calling out an EVE pilot that's being bad.

      To use @Anon0145's kvetching about modern politics as an example, it ISN'T the public berating of politicians that causes the current political troubles in the U.S. Public berating of politicians in the Americas has existed since at least the 1700s, and public berating of politicians in the world goes back to at least the early Roman Empire. The difference in the U.S. is that a publicly berated politician often responds by hardening his (this is mostly a male problem) stance instead of being shamed into realizing he's not acting in the best interests of his constituents or the country.

      Just like someone who says "I don't care what you think about my fit. I'm having fun." It's a valid way to play EVE, and I acknowledge that. It's just not a particularly ~winning~ way to play EVE.

    6. Jester, there is a difference between "harsh criticism" and just flat out name-calling. Telling someone "You're the dumbest motherfucker EVARRR!!!" does not do anything to help them STOP being the dumbest motherfucker ever.
      Yes, there's the "harsh emotions are meaningful and stick longer", but without some sort of ACTUAL content to the criticism, all there is TO stick is the "hard emotion", which is very negative.

      Also, aside from being a "senior military officer", most of those professions you mentioned are specifically GEARED at being in the public eye. So yes, when they do something stupid, it's generally in front of tons of cameras, and yes, the media piranhas go to work in a heartbeat.
      Thing is: for most of those types of people, they are in those jobs because they are ATTENTION-SEEKERS. Ever hear the saying, "There's no such thing as 'bad publicity'??" <--- this. They don't care if it's negative or positive attention, as long as they're getting it.

      I have had the pleasure of serving in the Fire service under some TRULY good leaders (and truly bad ones). The best Fire Captains I ever worked for, never yelled, never swore, never lost their "cool" at all...but if you fucked up, you KNEW you fucked up, and huge. You get called over for a "private chat" and without a single curse, without any yelling, you walked out feeling about 2 microns tall and EVERY ounce of shame that you're beating your dick about is ingrained into your very soul, and you NEVER repeat that mistake again.

      On the opposite scale, I've worked for 2 Captains who were like your buddies in RK. Publicly berating, spending more time on how "stupid" you are than the actual content of what you did wrong, why it was wrong, and how to fix it... know what you walk out of that confrontation feeling? "Wow, I don't even know what I did wrong, but jesus what a fucking dick!" There isn't shame there, just anger and confusion. That doesn't help anyone, and it degrades the team.

      Call it what you want, but don't call it leadership.

    7. Scientists, inventors, engineers, and senior business leaders are professions geared to be in the public eye? Really?

      Just using scientists as an example, I've seen a discussion between scientific peers turn just as ugly as anything in EVE. The language is *slightly* more polite, but only slightly. The harshness is the same. Ph.D.s are brutal.

      But I'll bet you can't name more than two or three.

    8. I think Hong's main point is about the inefficiency of publicly berating your team mates. But since you didn't disagree with him on that, I guess we're all on the same page now.
      And you seem to contradict your own argument: "or anyone else who's likely to be remembered more than 25 minutes after you're dead." If they're remembered they must have in the public eye.

    9. I agree with Hong again. The end is nigh :)

      Hong hits the mark right on the nose. I was an NCO for 8 years, and I served under both the types of leaders Hong describes. The ones that rarely did the stereotypical Drill Instructor bit were the most effective. The ones like Hong's Captains that used public humiliation got results, but sullen, grudging ones. They were also the first candidates to suffer "accidents while on operations".

      Criticism isn't just about what is said, it's about the way it is said. Most people don't react well to a Chef Ramsay. But just because one isn't being screamed at from 6 centimeters away doesn't mean the criticism isn't just as harsh.

      Sorry, Jester, but on this one, you are dead wrong if you think this manner of delivering criticism is acceptable or effective.

  9. Another reason why I hate Rotes, no individuality, no fun, all form and function. One of these days, if I ever get back into EVE, I'm going to join Rotes and burn that Alliance down.

    Not sure if I am joking about, sure I have respect for Rotes but for fuck sake this is a game. I get what you mean by survival and win/loss but at the end of the day, getting worked up about a fit or loss, is just plain unhealthy. Even looking at killboard stats, and Kill vs. Loss ratio is full of Bullshit.

    What I am truely saying, all that matters is whether you had fun, and that's it. But being like a corrupt ultra capitalistic money grubbing executive (Jester), and seeing everything in a black white of win-loss, and no aspect of fun is truely sad. I hope the good jester I read all those months ago is still around, because you seem to have become a clone of the rotes that I so viciously killed in my prime.

  10. You know, I can understand being proud about K/D efficiency, but the immense rage over this loss by Rote is simply pathetic. Doesn't matter where he lost the Golem or how, a good 70% of the post has much rage and vulgarity that it's amazing anyone wants to be a part of Rote. I have serious doubts if they would be that enraged after seeing their dogs shot right in front of them.

    Ignoring that, looking at several recent lossmails shows mostly constructive criticism, but clearly the majority of people who die feels the need to justify his death with a crap battlereport to avoid the inbound trolling. There's something wrong when you have to watch your back that carefully all the time.

  11. 2/3 of the way through the comments before I started understanding the complaints that were posted here. That means that 2/3's of the 10 minutes that I read this loss mail were completely wasted by chest pounding.

    Rote Kapele is full of losers that have to hide their 'carebearing' so as not to embarrass themselves. I suspect theres one or two of you who do incursions once in a while just for fun. You panzies have to hide behind alts to make the game worth playing?

    Being in Rote Kapele is a type of sado-masochism; the people that do well there are either 'masters' who get their jollies by berating their slaves, or slaves who get their empowerment through submission. I get it. Its sick and its perverted (as evidenced by Kermit).

    Did that piss you off? Did it shame you? Do you feel better now? Fucking Panzie

  12. Lol, common jester. This is just typical basement nerd stuff.

    politicians, senior business leaders, movie stars?, scientists, engineers, writers, artists?, police officers and military officers are doing something that actually matters, you know, in real life.

    Eve is an online spaceship game, this shit it why eve is niche, derps insulting other derps until they grow tired of "~elite pvp~".

    I used to get constant shit from flying a malediction with one 75 mm railgun on it. (fit was fine otherwise) I knew it was not optimal, but hey, its a fun little gun and I like the model. Sometimes suboptimal is fun, and nobody needs a second job performance review in a game I do those at work often enough.

  13. I think the point you may want to make is that it can be a hazing process. You want to enforce behavior as well as make sure members commit to the group. The harder the hazing the more loyalty and dedication displayed by those who stick around.

    I think that's a distinction you may want to make between an AAR and a RK km banter.

  14. Our Alliance has an entire section to post lessons learned. I think its my favorite section of the forums

  15. The whole issue here can be traced back to K/D being the most important thing in EVE. With incursions and moons and botting, why is your isk efficiency still what is tracked as making you (especially as an alliance) good or bad? Did the orphanage somehow talk everyone into believing this?

  16. I think you are missing a point. By weeding out those who do not wish to be insulted in the way you describe and only retain those with a thick skin (HTFU), your system ratchets up the noise of the insults while the signal of valid criticism stays the same. You end up with nothing but swearwords without detectable, meaningful content.

    From a leadership perspective this is about the dumbest thing you can do. You reduce your own ability to quickly and without many words correct blatant mistakes as you have to resort to lengthy foul-mouthed language instead of a clear statement like: "this was not good because XXX, do YYY next time or consider yourself on probabation".

    Show me one listed company that endorses this kind of behaviour as corporate policy. They don't do this not because of OSHA but _because it does not work_.

    Lastly, it is important to keep the eye on the ball, the ball being that gross mistakes and incompetence must not threaten the function of the team. The ball is _not_ the form by which this feedback is delivered. What you are promoting is a means for RL underachievers to get their rocks off blasting their supposed team mates and feel righteous about it. Where have I seen this before? Oh yes, high school bullies. But then again, I am glad that you found an environment in which you are happy - its a personal choice after all.

  17. The uni has a "comment on every loss- and killmail" policy. There should be no entry on the killfeed without comment.

  18. If you are going to use an example of useful feed-back to educate people, it often helps if the example explains what happened, where the mistakes were made, and ways to learn from those mistakes. Your Rote post does not meet any of those criteria fully, and trying to get through multiple posts talking about "faggots" and kermit butt-rape tends to turn off many people.

    Shame can be useful, but only if there is actually a nugget of wisdom along with it. You can be proud of Rote and what you accomplish on the field, but that was a poor example to make your point.

  19. If someone would talk to me like that, because I "destroyed" a virtual ship in a game (that even belonged to me...not them)... I would advise them to seek medical help. From a psychiatrist.
    But careful: he might send you to an asylum.

  20. It's a fucking game people, jester those comments on that killmails are laughable, and honestly that you are defending them is pretty pathetic. I have flown with the best in this game and you know what? While they did let you know that this loss or that loss could have been avoided, or that engagement was bad and this is why it was bad. What you don't do and I have heard it on comms in my current alliance is belittle the person in public. I have heard this on comms from people who are pathetic at pvp, and frankly I am not impressed. Losses happen, it's a game but what you strive for is not to have stupid losses. So if you have someone with a stupid loss explain to them that stupid losses won't be tolerated, like flying a jumpfrieghter in empire during wartime.

    But losing stuff like battlecruisers , battleships I don't care what to an unfortunate situation will happen. Of you are t paying attention and these things happen slot to you then maybe a pvp Corp or alliance isn't the place for you. But being an asshat to someone isn't really needed either.

    If you are an asshat to someone on comms and tell them how dumb they are don't expect them to show up at the next CTA because suddenly maybe they had something else to do.

    I can say for myself, I am a pretty decent pilot. I get a good share of kills and I have my share of losses. I came back to the game after months and months of being away and was still in the top 10k on battleclinic. At some point in 2005 I was in the top 100 on all the killboard and I have had my fair share of stupid losses along the way, a good pilot does learn from looking at his losses and determining what he can do better on the next fight.

    But this is not real life, frankly comparing it to that too me is pathetic at best, this is a game, a very complex one that has complex rules and it is meant to be learned. It is the best rock paper scissors game ever implemented as far as I can tell. As for any ship type or fleet type there seems to be a counter if you are creative and can think on your toes.

    That said I think there are people who take it a- to seriously and b- enjoy trolling or putting other people down and you can either defend their lameness or stand up and call them on it. Frankly I thought you were the type of person that would do the latter.


  21. I'm honestly disappointed in Rote.

    Losing a Golem, whatever.
    But a POD in highsec? It's called POSaver tab jack@$$ how did you not call him out on that?

    Really that's some ~L33TPVP~ m8m8m8 070707

  22. Jester uses that KM as an example yet they've lost far more over pimped stuff and noone batted an eye about it because it was the leadership that lost it. They feel they are so above everyone else they are allowed to throw billions away in mistakes yet criticize those not in leadership for even small mistakes. Then when they start getting trolled it's time to get rid of the ones that will stand up for themselves.

    So who are the bigger cowards? The leadership that can't stand being trolled or the poor bastard that takes a loss and stands up to their mistake?

  23. There's way too many people here that take those comments (the herp derp YOU FUCKING RETARD! comments, etc, that is) far too seriously. I highly doubt any of it is truly maliciously meant. Grow thicker skin.

    1. Reply - RK Style:

      YDGI - Learn 2 read, moron.

      Reply - My Style:

      You're missing the point: Jester was trying to explain the virtue of brutally honest AARs (which I agree with), but an important part of those is _constructive_ feedback. The endless name calling displayed in the KM is anything but.

      And while we can argue skin thickness left and right, but if somebody continually displays verbal diarrhea, fact is they will eventually no longer be listened to. Which is again exactly the opposite you need for good AARs.

    2. Your example is right on the money Druur. I think two issues got confused in this post: honest/constructive feedback (flying a marauder when you're wardec is not a good use of your ISK) and the constant name calling. The first one is useful to everybody, and is the reason why we read your blog Jester. The second is noise at best, but mostly it's boring; which is why a lot of your readers (me included) seem to have been disappointed by your support of it.

    3. Take it less as "support" and more as "comparison". I was pointing out that no matter how harsh any criticism anyone out there gets on their losses, it's nothing compared to some alliances.

      In particular, the discussion on the E-UNI KBs is genteel *when compared to* what's on RK's.

    4. Fuck you. Put a name to your comments.

      How's that for thick skin? I might trip over, maybe even choke on my words someday, but at least I fucking own them.

      ^^ that fucking hardcore e-fucking-nough for you fucking harden-the-fuck-up fuck-ups?
      (Jester did I throw enough fucks in there to make sure it's clear that I 1) give a fuck, lots of them in fact, and 2) am fucking hard as can fucking be, because swearing makes you fucking hard, like BRAWNDO makes plants grow?)

    5. I re-read your post and I agree with your feedback :)
      I guess we've become too accustomed to your well articulated prose, and got shocked (but not awed) by this sudden exposure to these less sophisticated comments :p

    6. I'd rather listen to a bunch of guys (deservedly) spewing verbal diarrhea for stupid shit than a bunch of quiet, people that say nothing and manage to rationalize all their losses into "well, I didn't fuck up, is everyone still happy with me?".

      It's the internet, noise is common, ignore it.

      Hong WeiLoh: No. :)

  24. I suspect that comments like those left on the KM are a primary reason so few would want to leave Highsec for a "Leet" group.

    Frankly, this message is doing the exact opposite of what you're tryig to do/say Jester. All it IS proving is that an "Alliance Tournament Competitor"™ like Rote is still populated by children that can't take, nor offer truly constructive criticisim. Pathetic....

  25. I think what a lot of people are missing is that membership in organizations like Rote is completely voluntary. Nobody is being forced to endure killmail hazing, since everyone is welcome to pick a corp/alliance with a culture that matches their needs.
    PL's views on education are pretty similar: we can expect to be hazed for any mistake (probably with the obligitory DailyGrace reference) and are expected to be able to take some trolling. It's definitely not for everyone, but some people really don't mind. And it's no coincidence that the organizations with more brutal feedback tend to be the most effective ones in eve.

  26. Problem with that Rote comments is that you have to read through alot of comments before someone chimes in with something helpful.

  27. Unlike most of you, I read the comments and wished I had the time to get good enough to join an alliance like Rote.

    There's no reason for you guys to get all mad and upset about what they do. It obviously works for them. Some people, especially those that want to be good at something, take the criticism and better themselves. If you want to get all offended about something silly(that's obviously supposed to be funny) then don't join that crowd, it obviously isn't for you.

  28. "an after-action report (AAR) is posted on the Rote forums, and the judgments in these AARs are almost always quick, logical, and brutally honest."

    Okee doke!

    A few of the brighter comments...

    -wtf is this shit,seriously
    -~this may or may not be worthy of song
    -You are one of the dumbest motherfuckers in this alliance

    heres a Bigger Loss - Same Group corp, just this is a Director's loss


    No comments from the ol troops on being "worthy of Song" or "The Dumbest Motherfucker in the Alliance"

    But we do have this down the list from the Pilot himself: "Yeah. I felt dirty with a random non-pimp module on there. Same with the OD and Nano, they didn't do much of anything at all, but again, the rest of the damned thing was so shiny, what's another 70m?"

    So, a DIRECTOR tossing pimp shit into a fit that does nothing = OK. Why is he not the greatest living idiot for a Billion-ISK loss?...Oh yeah....he's a "Director". Piss poor management is still piss-poor. Being a cheerleader for a group of hypocrites isn;t much better.

    All the cries of "HTFU" and "This is the way Rote does stuff" Is bullsh*t. Its just another typical Corp with a group of whiners at the top being fellated below by the lower-tier starfuckers...

    After seeing this, its pretty easy to see why Rote is and has been living off of a reputation that they clearly no longer deserve nor merit. But it certanly looks welcoming to disfunctional 14 year-olds who like to say "Bitches" and "Faggot" alot...*facepalm*.

    1. What's on the kill-board doesn't comprise an AAR. AARs are done on the forums or TS, as I said.

  29. I like how the commenters here are of the opinion that kill board comments are indicative of an alliance. Every alliance has a few trollolols, deal with it.

    1. I agree the question of proper feedback got drown out by the question of name calling. But Jester used these killboard comments to make his point about the need to toughen up. So this make these commments open to discussion.

  30. Jester, do you expect to get a shaking down for embarrassing RK this way? Was their embarrassment deserved? What were you hoping to accomplish by shining a light on RK's leadership style?

  31. Interesting perspective! No, I don't expect to get shaken down, and no, I don't think this is embarrassing to RK. If it were, it's embarrassment that's about a year old, since this kind of info about RK was posted on Rixx Javix's blog at the time Lucifer's Hammer departed RK.

    As I said in the post, RK is famously vicious for this sort of thing and given that it happens in public, alliance leadership can hardly expect it to be private. Hell, some of the pilots take a certain perverse pride in it.

    As for "why bring it up?", the point to bringing it up is to make it clear no matter how embarrassing you might find it to explain your ship losses in public, there's lots more embarrassing places it could be happening. ;-)

  32. I think the example you picked undermined your point about how feedback on one's actions makes one a better person. Everybody agrees with you when you say errors have to be pointed out so they're not repeated. And everybody agrees that if somebody refuse to have his errors pointed out, they won't improve.
    Maybe you should have used one of those After Action Reports to make your point?

    1. ^ This is the point most comments here are trying to make. I would wager that anyone willing to comment likely understood the point of the post, but found the examples in the post to be counter productive to the point of the post. Consider it unsolicited writing feedback :).

      What some of us are criticizing is not the value of shaming someone after a stupid loss. Each corp and alliance can figure out what they do or do not want to do in those situations. We are criticizing the choice of links you (Jester) made to support your argument. I would be very interested in seeing a good AAR. It might help me better communicate to members of my corp in similar situations. If I want troll sperging, I can find that in much less reputable places than this blog.

  33. "I'll expect a written explanation of why you are undocked in a restricted class ship durting war."

    So people actually pay a subscription to be spoken to like this?


  34. Players who make honest mistakes in our alliance and show the initiative to learn from them get treated just fine. People that make the same mistakes over and over or fail to listen to other more experience players get trolled

  35. Jester for the sake of me learning. The guy in your RK Killmail said he was hoping uncursion mechanics would keep him safe. Like when the wartargets flew in to get him, the sansha would turn on them and kill them. I remember hearing of that strategy, but apperently it didn't work well though, and he was killed in the site. Was hoping maybe you can go over that strategy and why it failed if you could. Dont know incursion well enough myself to know why. Thanks


Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.