Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Wednesday, March 28, 2012

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In the midst of the outcry over The Mittani's actions this past Thursday, CCP Greyscale has quietly dropped a post into the Ships and Modules section of the EVE Online forums announcing that they are neutering the only upcoming nerf to Titans that really mattered.  Titans will be retaining their insanely high Scan Resolution values.  The scan-res will not be reduced to a 5mm base as previously announced

Of course, a typical combat Titan doesn't have the 200+ scan-res of the blap Titans in my previous post.  But a more typical combat Titan will still have a scan res of 150mm or more, gained through a combination of expensive Sensor Boosters and the Quafe Zero booster.  In short, Titans will continue to lock targets faster than battleships.  I'm sure this is a relief to the few hundred pilots that are affected by this; the thread announcing the change had grown to a 134-page threadnaught and clearly models the way for how to deal with CCP for all future nerfs.  Simply stamp your feet and refuse to go away, collectively posting several times a minute until CCP has no choice but to capitulate to your endless bitching and whinging.

Frankly, I think I preferred it when CCP would double down on unpopular policies when challenged.

Goons, you'll need to rename the station in CCP-US again.(1)  And needless to say, I find the timing rather amusing.  Mittens was of course a major champion of the Titan nerf and displayed his smug for all to see when it was announced by Greyscale.  Now that Mittens is under threat of losing his position, the issue he championed suffers with him at the same time.  I'm sure it's just coincidence.  But just in case, someone photoshop a picture of Mittens lying on his back like Arwen Evenstar in Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, with Elrond seriously intoning "His fate is bound to the Titan nerf now" over his shoulder.

I'm going to have a lot more to say about the Voices from the Void podcast featuring Elise Randolph and Seleene later today.  But I was extremely pleased that Dani, one of the hosts, directly linked the Titan nerf to the Sanctum/Haven nerf announced last year at this time.  Both Elise and Seleene were on the CSM at that time, but neither spoke out about "kicking the can down the road" about that issue.  Unless I'm mistaken, the CSM was completely silent when that happened.  Unfortunately, Dani didn't think to call them out on this and the two of them were content to let the comparison go by unremarked.

Iterations are so out this season.  Instead, we don't implement change until we can completely re-engineer the Titan's role in the larger context of its future battlefield role.

If only that had been the philosophy in 2011.  Certainly, the entire balance of risk/reward regarding 0.0 ratting, incursions, and L4 missioning in high-sec should be addressed in a top-down perspective looking at all elements.  And certainly, I think both Greyscale and the CSM would agree that this is the case.  But at the time, this iteration on sanctums and havens was done, and it was adjusted in a second iteration later in the year, and will almost certainly be the topic of future iterations.  But it's fun to think about where we'd be today had CCP folded on the sanctum/haven nerf bitching the same way they're folding on the Titan nerf bitching.

For Titans, though?  Not so much.  No touchie until a high-level top-down review of their entire battlefield role is performed.  A comparison with a really bad movie comes to mind: Chancellor Valorum in Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, asking Queen Amidala if she will table her request about the invasion of her planet pending a fact-finding mission to Naboo by the Galactic Senate.  In this version of the tale, Amidala meekly says "sure, sounds good", goes back to her quarters on Coruscant, and eats bon-bons for a couple of years while she waits.

And while we wait two years for our fact-finding mission on Titans, blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap...


(1) Yes, I know it was already renamed.  It needs to be renamed again, again.  ;-)

26 comments:

  1. Maybe titans are imbalanced and all, but just screwing people who spent years building their fleet is awfully unfair.

    If it were drakes or abaddons nerfed, no big deal - you pick a new fleet setup, reship, practice a bit and you are good. But with titans it does not work - you invested tons of money you cannot recoup.

    Eve always positions itself as a game where actions have consequences and deep planning pays. Why are we punishing people who patiently built up powerful fleets, and rewarding their enemies who didn't?

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    1. Ah, the "it's expensive, so it should be an i-win button" argument. I'll have more to say about this in my next post.

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    2. That is one form of the argument. The other side of the coin is that it better do something to be worth the price tag.

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    3. EVE also positions itself in such a way that a lot of "unfair" shit happens on a regular basis... and _your_ "perfectly fair" is _someone else's_ "wow, way unfair".

      I think that's the perspective that virtually everyone has lost -- they only see _their_ version of "unfair" (waaa I get blapped... or waaa I spent a lot of ISK and queue time on a char I rarely play so he could eventually fly this.) and really don't care about anyone, or anything, but themselves and _their_ perception of "unfair".

      I'm sure there has to be a middle ground somewhere -- just neither side is willing to budge toward meeting at it. Therefore, CCP as the "parent" in this situation, between you "warring siblings", should probably step in, make the "middle ground" happen anyways, and you can go sit in the corner if you feel the need to throw a tantrum about it. ;-)

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  2. can't you reprocess the titans? ;)

    With the drone minerals nerf they might be worth more!

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    Replies
    1. Sure you can. Just dock up, and hit the reproces... ah, nevermind... :P

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  3. I think you have to iterate towards something. It is easier to iterate towards something with the Sanctums/Havens because they clearly exist as a source of isk. They have to be balanced regarding risk and reward.

    Do Titans need a fix? Yes. Giant death wangs is not an acceptable goal. We want to iterate away from that and towards something else.

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  4. Oh dear. Were I talented enough to pilot a Titan (and owned such a thing), I would definitely be weighing my options at this point.

    The one consistent force in New Eden is change. Those pilots that can adapt,flourish.

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  5. You seem to have lost your cool and degenerated into a pure hater over this issue Jester. Its a shame.

    Btw, here is PLs latest input regarding the issue: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1015538#post1015538

    Kinda ironic that what Shadoo proposes goes further than both Greyscale and the Goons in this thread seems willing to discuss at this point. But hey, who am I to meddle with your crusade. You have defined your enemies Seleene and Elise who *gasp* advocate for a proper solution (even removing the titans combate role alltogether) instead of another fucking band aid. Carry on.

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    1. At this point, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that some PL personnel aren't specifically trolling on this issue in order to further muddy the waters.

      Many of their posts seem to degenerate into nothing more than expressions of "Since it's really expensive, I should be able to do donuts in the parking lot with my Ferrari while running over proles and small animals if I want to. After all, it took a long time to buy this Ferrari and proles and small animals are cheap."

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    2. Indeed. Why bother with facts when you can write purely based on emotion? It makes your blog soo much better dont you think?

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    3. Not only have PL people not been saying "we should be able to blap people because it's expensive", the line from prominent PL members has consistently been that the old nerf wouldn't help enough and what we need is a bigger nerf to effectiveness vs subcaps.

      That's what Shadoo is saying with his posts, it's what Elise and Seleene were saying in the interview that got you so angry (notice how they kept mentioning removing it's ability to hit subcaps at all?) and that's what the PL table and I told Greyscale at the charity dinner.

      I think CCP needs to do something effective about titan blapping soon, and they need to commit to keep iterating on that change as they go forward.

      However the tears this issue is generating from a lot of people (including yourself) is a strong consolation prize while we wait.

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    4. I'm convinced it's a troll because most of the PL guys are saying something like "Well, CCP should completely re-engineer the Titan's role into something that benefits players so that they'll have a long-term goal." That's something, were it done, that would take CCP a YEAR, if not longer, to define before they could settle on something.

      In the meantime, blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap.

      I'm quite content to let them spend months or a year thinking about what Titan's battlefield role should be, but scan res nerf them while we wait.

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    5. So you are actually accusing PL of deliberatly employing stalling tactics agaisnt CCP so they can enjoy a broken ship longer, an not beeing sincere when they say that the previosly proposed nerf wont change much? Thats what you are saying?

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    6. Nope, I'm saying they're being totally sincere in their desire to have something else to do with their big expensive toys in a year or 18 months. And doing so in the full knowledge that what they're asking for will take a year or 18 months.

      And in the meantime, enjoying hugely what they can do with them NOW while they wait. And more importantly, getting that enjoyment undisturbed by the unwashed.

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    7. That is indeed an interesting interpretation of Shadoo promoting removing all titan guns as an IMMEDIATE fix NOW, in addition to the plea for CCP to commit to iterating on the ship further in the future

      Si I guess its true. Hate makes you blind.

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    8. That's funny. I myself see him complaining that they don't do enough DPS:

      https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=939242#post939242

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    9. Maybe you should catch up to later developments and examine the thread that this blogpost is written about. I even gave you the link.

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  6. Titans are expensive.

    BUT NOT EXPENSIVE ENOUGH

    There are too many, they are created too quickly, and die too slowly.

    The greatest industrial nations of the world during could not afford to have many of their greatest engines of war. They were few, they were special, they bankrupt those that made and ran them.

    As soon as they could, they mothballed fleets of ships of the line. they broke up and sold off.

    We have alliances that apparently have more resources than the Empires themselves, and can afford to loose titans regularly.

    simply put, for the power they hold (titans and supers) are inexpensive.

    However I will gladly admit, that no matter the price there will be alliances that are able to afford them. We need to find another method to raise the cost of supercaps (not necessarily the price) to ensure that a titan appearing on a battlefield is an ultimate statement.

    Governments fear currency costs, and the means necessary to raise that money. What do alliances in EVE fear? Perhaps that is what we need to base the cost on. Maybe, to pilot a titan, it runs on pilot SP . . . Turn titan pilots into plebes!

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  7. If this was merely a debate between two blobs - NC/Raiden vs. TEST/Goons no one would really care. However; as someone who lives in NPC space and has had 30 man gangs hotdropped by blapping titans this is a problem. I have three paid accounts, I’m seriously considering parking two of them and living in my wormhole until they get around to fixing them. I live in NPC space; I do this so I can PVP and not have the sov bullshit to deal with.
    If these titan fleets only blapped people they are at war with no one would care, it they fact they inflict these things on other people who just want to play the game. If I'm in a 30 man gang and I get killed by a 200 man gang it's still fun for me. There is no fun in being hotdropped and blapped by titans.
    This isn’t me EMOing, I don’t play some FPS games when it becomes apparent that other players have aimbots, because fighting impossible odds may be a great theme for a film it’s a shit concept for a game. Blapping Titans are the easy win but, in fact I’d go as far to say they are the nearest to the ‘pay to win’ mechanic as you’ll get in Eve. This has become even more apparent as it’s come to light some of the Alliances with very large Titan fleets have had staggering large botting operations happening within their ranks. So the picture painted by many titan pilots of the plucky young player spending 1000s of hours ratting up the isk for a titan is probably the exception rather than the norm.
    The other defence currently being use to not nerf titans is they are needed to defend the Goon blob. This is my favourite as it seems to suggest that in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAY ONLINE game that convincing more people to be on your side than the others guys should count for naught. If you as an Alliance choose not to accept people with less than 35 million skill points whilst the other side will take someone a day old and they get twice the number of people they should have the advantage.
    I’m really disappointed in CCP who seemed to have stepped back from a move that would have benefited many people because a few hundred seemed to complain. The least they could have done is banned titans from NPC space to stop inflicting these Elite PVPers who bring machine guns to a fist fights on the rest of us and contain them in sov grinding nonsense.

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    1. Sansha seems like the most likely to develop, using their stolen Jove technology, a region-wide cyno jamming system.

      Once the region is clear of titans; Would we see a mass-migration of alliances to Sansha space, or would it amount to nothing?

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  8. "Chancellor Valorum in Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, asking Queen Amidala if she will table her request about the invasion of her planet pending a fact-finding mission to Naboo by the Galactic Senate. In this version of the tale, Amidala meekly says "sure, sounds good", goes back to her quarters on Coruscant, and eats bon-bons for a couple of years while she waits."

    ^^ Probably would've made it better.


    Another thought, though, back on the main topic... I wasn't around when Titans were introduced, but all these people crying about "MY" Titan: I thought CCP originally envisioned Titans to NEVER be "personally affordable" -- they were supposed to be an alliance/coalition-level asset and "checked out" to be used on ops, then returned.
    Someone from CCP should clarify that intent, first and foremost.

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  9. I also find ut funny that you deliberatly dont post comments that makes you look bad and loose an argument. Nice work Jester.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Jester has always published my comments no matter how much I criticize him.

      Maybe you have a hard time with the captchas?

      Delete
  10. Titans, supercarriers, and Dominion Sov mechanics. The three things that made me and many like me turn our backs on 0.0 and look for areas in EvE not infected by the bordom of structure grinding and the iWin pawnmobile.

    This backpedal on Titan scan res is unfortunate for 0.0 as a whole. Why stay just to be meat for the blap machine when there are other more fun things to do that don't involve continual CTA's and being minced without a chance. Hell, even blob warfare gives you a better chance of survival than having a blap Titan fleet cyno onto grid.



    The cure? Personally I'd like to see Titans incapable of targeting subcaps thus forcing them into a pure anti-cap role along with heavy ongoing maintenance costs for ALL capital class ships from Orcas to Titans (and yes, its a small one but an Orca is still a cap class vessel as are freighters) thus making the upkeep of these vessels a continual ISK sink for their owners and the corps and Alliances they belong to.

    But will it happen, no of course not. The powerful, vocal Titan owning minority has spoken and the victims.....sorry, subcap flying majority should just keep our traps shut and report for blapping by the mighty with a smile and good cheer in our hearts. God forbid we should stand in the way of a few hundred pilots doing what they want, when they want and how they want.

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  11. As a NON-Titan pilot (and personally, could care less about EVER flying one) I wouldn't mind seeing them be the dreaded "iWin" button. Keep them the same. Make them UBER! If I were to ever even consider wanting to dedicate the time, energy and resources, I want my big powerful penisship.

    However, (and I know I'm not the only one who's proposed this) introduce a weapon that is specifically designed for taking out Titans and Supers. Make a new "Gravity" bomb that can be launched from bombers that inflict damage based on the the mass of the target. The higher the weight, the more boom you get.

    I've seen a few nerfs since I started the game. Seems to me that instead of nerfing the items that make EVE "interesting", add more counters and let the kidlings play.

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