Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Monday, April 2, 2012

Proposal: Tender

So, CCP said in the recent ship role devblog that they're looking for new destroyer-class ships.  It just so happens that I have an idea for a destroyer class ship that might be amusing, particularly for small-gang roams in null-sec space.  During World War II, two types of support ships were Seaplane Tenders and Submarine Tenders.  The purpose to these ships was to offer refueling, rearming, and repair services for those platforms when far from a friendly port.

I propose a ship that would offer a similar service.  The details are below.  If you have comments, please post them.  As I've said before, EVE players are sometimes not that good at seeing the obvious holes in their own proposals.  So if you see a few holes in this one, please let me know.  So here it is, a formal proposal for the idea of a...


Destroyer Class Tender

Introduction

The biggest annoyance with being behind enemy lines in null-sec is the massive advantage granted by those that live there by the stations.  They are able to refit, repair, rearm, change ships, and perform the myriad of functions available at a station.  The roaming gang has none of these advantages.  This is not to say that the roaming gangs should have all of these advantages, but they should have a few...

Fleets have been operating far from their home ports for hundreds of years.  And in the last 150 years or so, the capabilities have existed for ships to refit and rearm far from their bases.  It makes sense that the capability should exist in New Eden as well.  And giving roaming gangs this capability will introduce new game-play options.


Characteristics

The class name for the new ship will be "Tender".  It will be a new T2 destroyer-class (or perhaps industrial-class) hull unique to each race, and based on a new T1 destroyer hull:
  • the Caldari Tender will be called the Dove;
  • the Gallente Tender will be called the Asclepius;
  • the Amarr Tender will be called the Cleric;
  • the Minmatar Tender will be called the Scalpel.

The primary skill requirement to fly the Tender will be racial Frigate V.  The secondary skill requirement to fly the Tender will be Destroyers V.  The tertiary skill requirement to fly the Tender will be racial Tender I, which will be based on Engineering V and Energy Emissions V.

The Tender will have the following class bonuses:
  • Destroyer Skill Bonus: +10% cargo capacity and +5% speed per level
  • Tender Skill Bonus: 20% reduction to Shield Transport, Remote Armor Repairer, and Remote Hull Repairer capacitory use and +10% to repair amount per level
  • Role Bonus: -50% CPU and grid need for Shield Transporters, Remote Armor Repairers, and Remote Hull Repairers; and +100% penalty to remote repairer cycle time

Each Tender will have four high slots, and as you can see from the bonuses, would partially be a "mini-Logistics."  However, its primary advantages would be two-fold: first, it would be able to fit and deploy the new salvage drones and would have sufficient drone space to do so.  And second, the Tender would have both a small Corporate Hangar Array and would have the Orca and Carrier's ability to serve as a refitting point for fleeted ships.  Mid- and low-slots would be set sufficient to equip a moderate tank and sufficient cap mods to power two medium and one small repper of various types.  CPU and grid would likewise be set with two medium and one small repper in mind, plus another utility high slot.  Fitting a couple of CPU mods should just make it possible to fit an Expanded Probe Launcher with smaller reppers.

I also have the vague idea that it would be fun to have a Covert Ops Cloak-capable Tender for the express purpose of serving as a logistics and refitting point for cloaky Recon/Stealth Bomber gangs behind enemy lines.  Perhaps the Tender could be given the ability to jump through Covert Cynosural fields without itself being able to warp cloaked?

My general idea is that the Tender would, once fit properly, have a cargo bay of about 700 cubic meters and a CHA space of about 500 cubic meters... just enough to hold spare ammo on the way out and loot on the way back.  Lock time and sig radius would be comparable to the existing destroyers.  Lock range would be somewhat less than the current destroyers.

Tenders would not be particularly viable as in-combat Logistics ships both due to their thin skins, the value of the cargo they were carrying, and the cycle time penalty applied to their Shield Transporters and Remote Repairers.  One would call in the Tenders after the battle was over, not while the battle was on-going.


Commentary

The primary role of the Tender would be to act as an in-space refitting and repair point for small- and medium-size gangs behind enemy lines.  Like the submarine tenders of World War II on which the class is based, Tenders behind enemy lines could hold a large amount of ammunition, spare modules, Nanite Repair Paste, Liquid Ozone, isotopes, et cetera.  It fills an important void: it allows gangs operating behind enemy lines to refit ships for different capabilities as needed without the need for docking rights.  This would create a lot of emergent game-play: a small group of tenders with a battle cruiser gang, for instance, could refit for short- or long-range depending on the enemy gangs that they encountered and the tactics the BC gang wished to use.

However, the smaller platform is also itself viable behind enemy lines, unlike the Orca or Carrier, which are too-specialized to operate in this sort of role.  Unlike the Orca or Carrier, the Tender does not have a vast cargo hold, and as a result, a large fleet wishing to refit for a different role would require a large number of Tenders to make that possible, or perhaps one or two Tenders plus an Industrial.  The Tenders could also help bait ships fit additional tank, or if bait ships were not needed, remove the bait fitting for a more universal fit.  Tenders could also carry additional drones in their cargo bay to replace drones lost in space by roaming gang.  And of course, it might be handy for the Tender to carry a Cynosural Field Generator or two in its CHA...

If the Tender were given the ability to use Covert Cynos, it could operate as the primary logistics platform for Stealth Bomber and Recon gangs operating behind enemy lines.  The Tender's ability to allow the bombers to refit would give them the ability to fit for bombing fit or ganking fit depending on the fleet's needs, and the cargo space and CHA could be used to hold Bomb Launchers and spare bombs.  Tenders operating with Recons (particularly Falcons or Rooks) could carry the spare racial jammers needed to affect a fleet found during a long roam, or additional e-war or tank as needed for other Recons.

Tenders would be reasonably useful for PvE fleets operating in low-sec or null-sec, particularly for carrying loot.

Finally, the platform does allow for a certain amount of LOL-fleets with two-gun, two-repper Tender fleets, or Tender fleets refitting on the fly to equip different weapon types as needed depending on what they encounter in space.


Conclusion

The Tender creates an extremely versatile "mini-logistics" and refitting platform that would somewhat reduce the inherent advantage that null-sec alliances enjoy far into 0.0 space.  With a viable platform to offer refitting, rearming, and repair services, null-sec gangs could travel deeper into 0.0 and reduce the safety that those in deep 0.0 currently enjoy.  The ship does not replace the existing Logistics class and offers capabilities that would not be matched by the current industrial ships.  Making the Tender a destroyer would make it a relatively fragile target that would be easily destroyed if caught.

The primary goal of the Tender is to drive emergent game-play: this proposal lists only some of the advantages to which clever EVE players could apply this platform...


Thoughts?

63 comments:

  1. This would also have a role in W-space. A fleet of gas miners could refit to combat in response to a gank attempt. This is already done with orcas, but it would be excellent to have something that doesn't disrupt wormhole mass.
    Furthermore, with these things, Logistics boats, like the guardian, could reship with extra ET to combat Bhaalgorns/Curses in both W and K space.

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  2. My first thought is that a couple of these would make extended expeditions into wormhole space viable without having to set up a tower or collapse a hole with an Orca.

    My second thought is that it'd be a supremely un-fun ship to fly, relegating it to the realm of dedicated alt toons. I'm not sure how I feel about a fleet role basically intended to be filled by an alt running in a second window. Sure, multiboxing is an important part of EVE, but it always seemed to me that the advantage of a second client was as a manpower multiplier, not a requisite for something else entirely. Granted this ship does not require one to multibox, but as I previously indicated its intended role on the battlefield, namely, to stay out of it, encourages its pilot to stay minimized or logged off while PvPing on their main.

    That said, I really like it. The ability to modify a fleet's loadout in deep space without having to commit capitals would be a welcome addition to the small gang game.

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    Replies
    1. If the skill requirements were nothing higher than 4 to fly instead of 5, they would be easy ships for new players to get into, which would allow them to play a support role quickly that would contribute a lot more than an extra rifter to tackle something for 2 minutes then die.

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  3. Can I suggest also adding a Role Bonus to the range of Shield Transfers and Armour/Hull RRs?

    A T2 Small RR/ST has a range of 4.8km, a 200% bonus would make that 14.4km. While a 400% bonus would make the range 24km which would make them much better as a logistics platform for frigate based kiting gangs.

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  4. First thoughts, I like the premise, Dessy's however are High-slot heavy ships, only having 4 is a bit strange, also there may also not be sufficient skill requirements for such a ship that will be a ship that will almost certainly have every alt heading towards to bring in a fight with them, rather than sacrifice a fighting player to perform a logistical role.

    A couple of thoughts I had.

    I would also include a new highslot module which basically a non capital triage module for the ship.

    Only during cycle can the ship be used for refitting and also during cycle Shield, armour, cap & hull remote reppers take 2 times duration to cycle, but rep 3 times there normal amount. No capacitor bonus is given, so it's down to you to manage the cap. (Note, it doesn't have to use stront if thats a problem, it can use 75% capacitor like a jump.)

    Deploying would also have a graphical effect like the rorqual, so you can visually look at the ship in space and know you can refit your ship in it.

    I would go with an 8 highslot and everything like you suggest, the 4 other highs, would be a non capital version of the triage, a cloak, a core probe and I dunno, tractor/salvager.

    I would maybe even take it one step further and make it a clandestine unit, black ops don't have logistics ships at the moment, and a non-combat ship sounds like a plan.

    Reason for having the ship deploy, is that these ships should be back ground support, but if you probe out this ship, you should catch the whole fleet with there pants down :-) also no running away with the destroyers fast align time either. Only way that these ships will die really.

    Also logical progression for this ship is --> logistics --> field command --> Triage Carrier anyway.

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  5. I think some sort of anchorable structure could fill this role just as well. Like the poster above me says, it seems like an 'alt ship.'

    I would say just break interdictors into two classes. T2 comabt dictors (can fit one bubble) in the way of the sabre, and interdictors that better represent the fleet dictor role with faster align times, warp speeds and more CPU for double or triple bubble fits.

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  6. I have to agree with Steph here. And while I agree on the need for such a ship (minus the remote rep), I have to disagree on a platform that is played most of the time by alts, most of the time sitting in with cloak and doing nothing is not a ship that makes fun.

    Something like this should have no remote rep boni, instead it should have imho a probe bonus or something else that is that requires activity outside of combat.

    Several other "better" candidates for refit services come as well into my mind, our poor t1 logistics are simply not working right now, why not update them to be at least useful outside of combat? Black Ops rarely leave friendly space either. Should they not offer support behind enemy lines as well?

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  7. Why are we wasting time, resources and neurons, and shitting up the internet by thinking of more bullshit ships and modules to add into the game that no one is asking for?

    1.Fix supercapital tackle and the rest of supercap nonsense like combat refitting and insta jumping
    2.Fix the useless shit that's already in the game, aka 90% of existing ships, aka anything that isn't drakes < abaddons < maelstroms (and fucking tengus)
    3.Kill yourself

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    Replies
    1. Super helpful.
      All sarcasm aside, I'm sure Jester has posted about at least 2/3 things you listed there before, maybe you should do some research before you post?

      Delete
    2. with the recent mittens thing hes actually covered 3/3

      Delete
  8. Agreed with Steph. While it'ld be a nice addition to any fleet and a great ship to put the deadspace small remote reppers on, it's an alt ship if anything.

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  9. It would also be useful for hisec mission-running fleets ("People do that?" you ask? Yes, they do - sometimes corps do it to help new players get access to higher income, or help standings grinds, or just be sociable) where different players/accounts pick up a bunch of missions at once, then need to switch fittings for different NPC types. Saves a trip to a station and back.

    I definitely like the idea of them jumping to CovOps Cynos, seems to make the concept work a lot better than having them either accompany the fleet on their roam (and thus get primaried at any gatecamp for an easy KM) or trail behind them and potentially get jumped. On the other hand, that would also make removing loot very very easy, as they could also jump back to the relative safety of a home system.

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  10. This ship would not often be fun to fly with a main (for PVP), but would be useful on a second account. Like bringing a blockade runner with a black ops.

    I can imagine a T2 noctis doing a similar thing, might be a ship line developing there.

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  11. Fantastic Idea, I think you've spotted a genuine gap in the current line up of ships and proposed an elegant solution.

    I agree that these ships wouldn't be an enormous amount of fun to fly, spending a lot of their time lurking off grid or a couple of jumps away from the action but their use could be incentivised in the same manner as some alliances do with logistics ships.

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  12. The Minmatar Tender should be called Needle :)

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    Replies
    1. I would think more along the lines of 'Duct Tape', Bailing Wire' or 'Chewing Gum'

      Delete
  13. I like the idea very much but I must agree with Steph : the ship should have a combat role to play, else it's an alt's ship.

    Giving it enough rep power to give a frig gang an edge in combat but not enough oomph to keep serious dps off (perhaps enough to rep a flight of Warrior II's) would make it viable to fly. This would give much flexibility to frig gangs and create some budding logi pilots as well.

    Making the many options you mentioned (Covops Cloak, Covert Cyno, Refit & Corp Hangar) tied to modules would create some interesting fitting choices as well as flexibility when multiple Tenders are employed.

    All in all, this seems to me a very good workable new ship role.

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  14. A very good idea, but you need to rethink the cargo size in order to carry usable quantities of Liquid Ozone, unless you give it Recon-type role boni to cyno cycle times and ozone consumption.

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  15. I like it.
    Also missing is the mine layer/mine sweeper (mines last 2 hours?) and the WW1 destroyer, which would be better described as a torpedo boat. So maybe a destroyer class ship with citadel torpedoes, 4 slots, single reload.....

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    Replies
    1. Mines used to be in the game, they were removed because they did bad things to the server. Missile splash damage was removed not long after, because yet again, bad things to the server.

      Mines are a dead feature that'll probably never go back in because of the lag they produce. Bombs are only okay because mechanics keep them from going off in large amounts all at once.

      The torp boat you're asking for already exists, it's called a Stealth Bomber, unless you're talking cruiser class heavy bomber using citadels, which is the stuff of dreams. But they'll never happen, put together a goon sized fleet of those things and they'll volley titans.

      Delete
    2. What a great idea you have! T2 Cruisers with Citadel Torps. Give them a paper tank. Oh yes, THIS would be something that would work nicely. Would balance out that they would need a support fleet to survive another fleet of subcaps.

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    3. "put together a goon sized fleet of those things and they'll volley titans."

      OMG I would LOVE that ;D

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  16. It's a very good writeup. Two comments.

    First the skill requirements are a bit steep - CCP have said themselves that they are re-balancing Tech 2 training to not require indirect skills and I believe level 5 frigate for a destroyer class vessel is one of those skills.

    Secondly, as good as it looks, I don't see it as usable. What is it? A salvaging logistics boat? I like the idea, but on any engagement that would require refitting that far from a home station, most will simply throw up a POS to base out of and use carriers until the first outpost fals (which is always the primary goal of the first invasion to any space, take an outpost to base out of).

    With that in mind, you have a paper thin logistics ship that isn't that great with logistics due to the penalties, or a paper thin Orca that won't be used for its purpose.

    Basically I like the entire idea, but it assumes that long drawn out sorties behind enemy lines actually happen on a small roaming gang basis. That isn't actually the case.

    I can see this being used for nomadic wormhole corps, but that's about it.

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  17. I'm not sure I like the idea of having such a valuable role in such an inexpensive ship. The idea of being able to refit in a hull that costs approximately 20-50 mil isk would be very powerful.

    The other thing is that for a resupply role we already have that filled by blockade runners. A "trucker" for extended bomber fleets is usually a must in this day. I can't in good conscience support this idea. IMHO it would be too much in too small a hull.

    However, I WOULD support adding this functionality to Black Ops Battleships if they don't already have it. That would make them a bit more useful and used I think.

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  18. I have always thought that a tender would be a sweet addition to eve. -- but I would base it off of the orca. I would make ship to simply be a combat verison of the orca -- remove the ore hold and decrease the size of the cargo hold and ship maintenance bays. Stealth bombers are fragile so I would have it that the ship maintenance bay can hold upto five spare ships.

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  19. A carrier does all this, fit a cloak, jump it to a cyno, web it and have it warp out to a SS where it cloaks up.

    Black Ops BS are even better at this, since they are not ment for front-line fighting in the first place, fit reppers and besides the corp hangar thingy, it can even bridge you!

    I personally think the tender will inbalance fleets, because they are so versatile, they do not have a weakness. Sure, they're not the I-win ships but a fleet of ships able to switch roles on a whim thanks to an unprobable milk-cow.. well... hmmm.

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  20. I love the concept you've laid out here, but Steph makes a very valid point. It very much sounds like an alt account ship. I don't know how much of a bad thing that is, though. Adding more significant reasons for it to stay in the battle (more tank, more gank, more logi, ewar...) seems a bit overkill.

    But as it stands I still love it. If such a ship were introduced, I would spec my alt for it immediately. I've been trundling towards an Orca for the past month or so to get the logistical capabilities it offers, and while I think I'd still go for both, the tender is an extremely appealing little boat.

    I do find it amusing, however, that destroyers seem to be more often fit for support roles than ...well, being destroyers (aside from suicide gank boats that is). I'd still like to see a dedicated heavy assault destroyer of some kind.

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  21. It’s an outstanding proposal that’s based in fact. As most of us know, modern real world navies operate far away from home and have logistics/tender servers to keep them refueled, rearmed and functioning.

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  22. I really like this idea. As mentioned in the above comment, it would bring a lot of sustainability to WH/lowsec roams (could it make perma-roaming possible? Stopping only occasionally to pick up supplies on your journey through eve... that would be really cool in my opinion). I also think that allowing it to potentially fit a cloak is probably quite a good idea as I'd imagine it would be quite a high priority when choosing what to engage where (take out the Tender(s) first to significantly impact on overall fleet versatility?)

    My only bugbear with it is the skill requirement 'Racial Tender 1'. IIRC no other T2 Ship command skill is racial, i.e. if I can fly gallente HACs I can fly any races HACs provided I have the prerequisite cruiser and support skills etc. I don't see any reason this ship should work any differently. Just a thought really.

    Overall, looking good!

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  23. This is excellent. Great job carving out a new role while still providing a fair degree of versatility. It's also clearly not an overpowered "I win button" as most new ship proposals turn out to be.

    I have two reservations. One is that I strongly dislike the covert ops suggestion. These are supposed to be vulnerable ships, and the cloak strips away that vulnerability. If you want tenders supporting a fleet operating beyond enemy lines, it should be difficult to keep said tenders safe.

    Second, I agree with Steph about the fun factor. It's appropriate that you named the Amarr tender "the Cleric" - you know, the D&D class that traditionally no one wants to play. CCP needs to be careful about introducing healing/buffing roles which 1) become so advantageous to fleets as to be virtual necessities; but 2) feel like a burden rather than an opportunity to fly. Lots of people already feel that way about Logistics ships; why pile on?

    Getting around the first problem is easy - no covert ops cloak. But the second one may be harder. Reservations aside, this is carefully thought out and I hope CCP is reading.

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  24. While the ship concept is good, I think its a bad fit for a destroyer.
    I could definitely see the concept applied to a new class of industrials but destroyers are for destroying things. Thats what the base hull is designed for and I just cant picture a destroyer being able to service a battle-cruiser as described here.

    Also as others have mentioned this is obviously an alt ship and wouldn't be terribly fun to fly. Yes it would be useful, yes people would use it, but I don't imagine for one moment it would be used by anything but an alt.
    Also, are you sure its wise to give a destroyer sized ship cap-free reps? At lvl 5 racial tender thats a -100% cap bonus to reps. Depending what sized reps you planed to put on this ship that might be temptation enough to slap an MWD onto it and speed tank while RR'ing.


    Yeah, good idea, especially the cloaky thing, but the concept doesn't sound like a destroyer to me. Industrial, yes, destroyer, no.

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    Replies
    1. Interdictors are based on the destroyer hull, do they fit that combat role any more than this tender design?

      I too would love to see a variant of destroyers more suited to destroying things, but I don't see much problem with using it as a hull base for this idea. The intermediary spot the destro hulls occupy seems a good fit for the tender's suggested role, in my opinion.

      Delete
  25. Perhaps allow it to fit a gang link? That would encourage keeping the ship logged on at least. It would need something to provide off-grid support for the roaming fleet.

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  26. I think a ship like this should have some secondary role in engagements. Not logistics. Because I am a fan of ships that do things and not alt-boats (like steph said).

    Perhaps the primary method of repairs should be drones. Or perhaps the only logi bonuses should apply to hull repair modules and the standard anti frigate stuff could apply.

    For example,
    extra drone damage (gal)
    small neuts (amarr)
    missiles (caldari)
    mixed bag (minmatar)

    Seeing as the ability to refit is quite potent, perhaps it should use a specialised module that reduces mobility for a small period of time when in refitting mode.

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  27. I like the idea as Steph said it would become a bit of a side account especially if it can cloak. If they became a used class they would probably be hunted due to the extra capabilities it gives a fleet.

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  28. I like it. I don't really see a reason why this couldn't be full on cloaky ship, warping and all.

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  29. Not to be a dick, But every time I go to read a post about anything on your blog and you mention WW2 Naval combat I just groan, And really need to force myself to read the rest. It happens quite a bit; And I find it a poor parallel, Personally.

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    1. Fair enough, but do remember that I never (to my knowledge) have said "this thing that happened in EVE is like this WW2 battle."

      When I use a WW2 reference, it's always to introduce a concept: the inability of a battleship's guns to depress to hit a destroyer escort, for instance, when I brought up the Battle Off Samar.

      Here, I'm again just using it to describe a RL concept, not invoking tactics or anything.

      Delete
  30. Using a tender, will save alot of ISK (hopefully) for me. My alt will be able to use this instead of an Orca or Noctis, when missioning.

    Also, the Tender skill, could be a pre requisite for the Logistcs skill.

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  31. Love the idea, but I agree with Steph that it wouldn't be much fun to fly.

    A covops cloak could make it more viable as a scout/extra pair of eyes, making it more useful/fun without really reading on the toes of covops/recons. Hell, it'd be a very viable FC-mobile

    A bonus to hull reppers would also be a nice twist for fleets that already have "primary" logistics to patch up any battledamage.

    Love the concept, but not the name. "Tender" = something you drag around. Not sure I want to fly that :-)

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  32. Not sure I am behind this idea - but then, I never lived in Null, so I don't have an opinion. But I would like to see a ship that can launch of generate a cloak bubble, similar to the warp disrupting bubbles. The cloak bubble around a stationary and specialized ship can serve as a refit point, collapse after X minutes and have a cooldown of - skill dependent - 30min. Means, this bubble can serve as a rally point and refit points for small gangs. Then, the Tender idea also comes in. It would likely be overkill but it would be nice to have an AOE repair field that also takes care of drones and burned out mods. For a fee, of course, so the pilot gets ISK for his - otherwise rather dull - service. And btw, a cloaky Tender - think Milchkuh German Submarine (Type XIV).

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  33. I think that the idea is rather a wonderful one! But perhaps if I could inject a bit of "entitled noob" into the mixture... Would it really be terrible if the skill requirements for the ship were downgraded? I think, personally, that having the skills be reduced could be a very good thing indeed.

    As you said, these could function as mini-logis, as far as their roles go, little repairing beasts that could be used for small fleet action. So, what if, skill ramp-up wise, they actually were able to function as a cheaper introduction to the heavier, more robust logistics ships? It would be able to give new players a far more interesting goal to shoot for early game then "go get into a rifter and tackle lol", and could perhaps help as far as new player interest goes... I found the initial startup months for eve WOEFULLY boring as far as what I was able to run around in, and if I'd been able to shoot for a healing, support role like this fairly early on I'd have been infinitely more engaged, and far more apt to try and find a place for myself in the overall world.

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  34. As somebody said before I would rather CCP just implement the refitting service on Black Ops BS's rather than creating a new ship. That way Black Ops would be more valuable and used outside of bombing fleets as well. A refitting ship should always be expensive.

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  35. I like the concept of this ship, but it is too good for a destroyer.

    It might be a good idea to design the T1 version before working on the T2 to give yourself some perspective. There are three things that go into Crazytown for me.

    Cargo capacity: 700 + 500 is larger than the cargo capacity of the Exequor cruiser.

    High slots: Destroyers have small hardpoints. Medium-size reppers are cruiser-size, not destroyer-size.

    Drones: Accent on the plural. Destroyers have, at most, a 5 m^3 drone bay - enough for only one drone.

    While the T2 designation you have given this ship allows some variance with the destroyer norms, you have gone past three of them.

    Maybe you were thinking of a new cruiser?

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    Replies
    1. Reppers don't take hardpoints, see cruiser logistics using large reps.

      Current destroyers have 5m yes, that doesn't lock all destroyers into only 5m.

      The cargo is fine IMO, maybe make the extra 500 an ammo and charges only spot. The 700m3 is AFTER fit.

      Sounds like a good idea, depending on cost. I would like to see the reconfig made into a triage type model in that ships around it can't refit unless the Tender enters refit mode, stopping movement for say 30-60 seconds. Doesn't need fuel like siege or triage, but I think if you don't do something like this you will end up with tenders in every single fleet and a R&K switch 100 times per fight system taking place. Maybe that isn't a problem though as their fights are much more than target F1.

      Delete
    2. Yes, the 700 cubic meters is after the destroyer bonus and a cargo expander or two (or three). An Exequor holds 1800m3 after fitting even if you don't rig it if memory serves.

      Delete
  36. Good Idea.

    Suggestion - add a 10km dia shield bubble mod with ~250k EHP. Tender can't move when the shield is deployed. Fleet must be inside bubble for reps. Would offer minor fleet protection in hostile situations while being repped or repping. Tender can still be probed and scrammed.

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  37. Jester, explore a bit deeper into the role of destroyers in general....

    at first they were "Torpedo boats"
    then "Escorts and Patrol"
    then "Raiders"
    then "anti-aircraft and ASW (anti-sub)"


    Currently in EvE, destroyers are mostly "anti-frig", which is a very niche role....they can deal with t1 frigs nicely, but not so much with AFs. Inties, EAS or SBs are vulnerable to Dessies, but the speed of the latter does allow much maneuverability to catch and kill.

    Also, t2 destroyers (interdictors) are "dead-man-walking" ships, being the exception the sabre with its incredible dps with autocannons.

    To me it should be:
    T1 destroyer -> long range turret platform (small sniper with volley damage)
    T2 destroyer A -> fleet interdiction: warp bubbles and web bubbles, no weapon bonuses, speedy and decent resists
    T2 destroyer B -> patrol boat: roaming-centric ship, bonuses for damage at close range, speedy and decent resists.

    So yeah, a single t1 hull, two t2 variants.

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  38. Not a fan. I think there are some good ideas buried there, but it's not the right ship class. First of all, Tech 2 ship skills aren't racial (and from reading the devblog for the first 80+ pages, they won't be). Tech 2 ships are specialized versions of their Tech 1 size, so no racial variation is needed. So the skill should not be Racial Tender, just Tech 2 whatever.

    The fuel truck (Blockade Runner) can already hold bombs and do the black-ops work. However, having a third class of Transport ship (already an industrial) that does fuel truck & corp hangar & refitting might be a better ship. Take the covert ops pieces of the blockade runner, add in a bit of Orca, and see what comes out.

    I'd look more for a specialized role or activity in EVE, and build a ship around it. Tech 2 destroyer as exploration vessel? Bonuses to probe launchers, add in two mid slots for analyzer/codebreaker (three for shield tankers), with CPU bonuses/reductions to allow an expanded probe launcher, and to exploration modules. That might be a destroyer class ship.

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    Replies
    1. Very interesting ship idea, I like it, but not sure it makes sense on a destroyer hull. Maybe we just don't give this a chance because of preconceptions though.

      I like the idea someone else mentioned in one of the earlier comments about two types of interdictors; a solo/combat type, and a fleet type.

      Delete
  39. how about adding the refitting option to command ships ?
    or use your idea to rebalance command ships versus tech3 ships ?

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  40. Like the concept, but I think it would fit better in an industrial hull. Because ammo trucks are already common for fleets, but they're limited to carrry ammo/paste/fuel/etc for the fleet. Imagine the tender as a third transport class:
    - can fit a covops
    - same class bonuses as in your post
    - can refit only one (or two) ship at a time
    - would have the cargo capacity (maybe more?) and tank of a blockade runner, but the velocity, agility and mass of a transport so that it would still have to be deployed carefully.

    The big advantage of going the industrial way is such a ship would still be useful on its own as a blockade runner so no need for a specialised alt.

    It could use the hull model of the Iteron V (other races would need a new model though), which would be perfect for a Milk Cow :)

    Otherwise a deployable structure would fit your requirements and could be carried by an industrial or a blocakde runner.

    P.S.: the commentary part looks like the requirements for this ship class, so maybe it should have been put before the characteristics since these would be the outputs of said requirements? (sorry if this sounds too much like work talk).

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  41. Wild, crazy idea:
    Let's get the shit we ALREADY have in-game balanced, iterated, and "fixed" before we start throwing MORE "Hey look, new :coolideas:" into it.

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    Replies
    1. Fixing what's already in there doesn't mean you can't use new parts to do so. Those ships could be used to revive low sec, by allowing gangs to go on longer roams or help small corps getting a foothold in null sec.

      Delete
    2. I roam low quite a bit.... Unless you're going to the "hotspot" systems, you're going to have a HUGE problem even finding a fight. And if you DO go the "hotspots", chances are you'll find a fight, but you won't need a "tender" afterward, you'll need a new ship. ;-) Just saying.

      Delete
  42. I've given your idea a bit more thought and written up a post about it, if you'd like to read; http://petuko.tumblr.com/post/20439257854/small-gang-tlc

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  43. Another ship class that's sorely missing is a covert ops interdictor. A saber for the black ops groups out there. And trust me, if CCP makes one it will see almost immediate use.

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  44. When I first read the post earlier today, my thoughts were also "alt ship" and "maybe an industrial hull." I still pretty much think its an alt ship, but I'd like to see if there's a way to tweak that.

    I'm not sure about what ship class I think it should be though. I could see anything between Destroyer and BC. Cruiser hulls could be alternate versions of current logistics ships, with bonuses as stated (perhaps plus a speed boost and/or covert cloak). In terms of BCs, I was thinking T2 variants of the Tier 3 BCs. A T2 Tornado's speed to help refit on the fly could be insane.

    Regardless, cool concept. I'd like to see it come into play if there's a way to actually make it a ship worth flying (without alts).

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  45. LOVE IT!

    Destroyers have always been the bastard children of EVE, this would be an awesome addition.
    Though maybe this idea is too interesting to be relegated to yet another Tech2 skin.
    It would also make for a good starting point for Tech3 strategic Destroyers.

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  46. Jester,

    Sorry but although the idea is fine i have a few comments/suggestions:
    1) Where's the distinction from regular logistics other than the refit in space?
    2) Orca's and Carriers can already perform this role if someone so wished.
    3) The principle is nice however the current suggestion for implementation would leave existing logi at both a usefull and training requirement disadvantage.

    Good idea but i think the hole/role you are trying to fill can already be filled (it just takes more people/different ships).

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  47. All fine, except Tender is an absolutely balls name. it sounds like the ship that works in the retired-hulls home and turns the old ships so they dont get bedsores, then wipes their ass when they shit themselves.

    also feel the same way about the ship names

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  48. Perhaps this Tender would need to "set up" making it immobile while performing its functions. Perhaps it needs scaffolding?

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