Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Monday, April 9, 2012

Quote of the Week: Static

The quote of the week this week comes from someone who is increasingly becoming my bane, CCP Greyscale.  First, let's cover the good.  There's a long thread on the EVE Online forums about what the proper approach to nerfing Titans is.  This is a good thing.  I'm completely in favor of this kind of direct interaction between players and devs.  It's also great that Greyscale is reading the thread and reading the suggestions in it.  Again, no argument with that and I think it's a great thing.

On page 26 of the thread, he lists the things that CCP is seriously considering when it comes to the Titan nerf.  One of them -- scaling turret damage based on sig radius -- is a great idea.  Another one, though, "Stop people from refitting their ships while they're being targeted" doesn't seem to be about Titans at all.  And right in the same post Greyscale admits...
Stopping mid-fight refitting is a "cute" solution that may or may not end up contributing to this in practice, but it's not behavior we want to support anyway so removing it now seems reasonable.
Emphasis mine.  And that's the quote of the week.

Hey, all you people that bitched at me for what I said about Lord Maldoror?  Use your ability to annoy for good, get on this thread and tell Greyscale not to do this.  Because without the ability to refit in mid-combat, the last couple of Rooks and Kings videos wouldn't have happened.

Combat refitting is not used very often, but when it is used, it can have some very cool effects: refitting dreads from gank fit to tank fit when challenged, the dual triage carrier support that Rooks and Kings is so good at, and refitting line battleships for specialty duties are only three emergent game-play mechanics that combat refitting allows.

Later in the same thread, when directly challenged by a host of players and at least two CSM members about this "Titan nerf", Greyscale doubled down:
The reason we don't really like this sort of thing is that pre-fight fitting decisions are supposed to be one of the fundamental decisions of EVE combat. Most MMOs let you change your weapons and armor more-or-less on the fly. We don't, and there are clear and long-standing design principles behind that.  ...  Yes, we need more interesting decisions that players can make during combat, that's one of the fundamental problems with our combat model right now IMO, and yes, removing this option will take some interesting decisions out of combat, and that makes us sad.

My response to this on the thread:
Refitting in mid-combat is an emergent game-play mechanic that encourages creativity and player skill over skill points and blobs. You should be encouraging this and pushing it down to smaller alliances and corps (through a Tender-class ship, for instance, plug plug), not removing it where it exists today.

But that's the thing: Greyscale clearly recognizes this is emergent game-play and wants to take it out anyway.

Seleene tells me the CSM is nearly 100% opposed to this change and is telling Greyscale so.  Please feel free to add your voice to the chorus on this thread.

Finally (and unrelated) though, I would be remiss if I didn't mention this hysterical post written by Frug on the Failheap Challenge forums.  Go give it a read.  It was almost my QOTW, and it's fairly brilliant.


  1. No surprise to me. CCP devs want to tell us how to play the game. It makes the job of "balancing" much easier when there are less variables to manage.

    The change from general-purpose tier-based ships to specific role-based ships is the same sort of nonsense.

    My prediction is that the role-based ships will end up being so strictly defined in terms of CPU/PG, slots and bonuses that the number of viable fits will be limited - thus making the job of balancing ships within a role easier for CCP devs, while simultaneously eliminating the creative range that players can use to determine for themselves which ships actually belong in each role.

    Any ship which ends up with too many possible unusual fits - or can be used outside of its defined role - will be undoubtedly be considered OP, and scaled back until it can only fit the CCP-approved standard fits.

    Keep in mind, too, that the changes to the ship skill tree will make it even more difficult to cross-train races, so racial ship balancing becomes even more critical. You will no longer be able to train for a Drake for PVE, and then quickly cross-train for the Hurricane for PVP. Selecting a race path will be much more of a commitment to a new player than it is today. Thus, the need to ensure that each race has relatively equivalent ships available within each "role".

    And, so, the sandbox becomes ever smaller....

  2. Using your favorite WWII reference; Exactly how many US and Japanese battleships refit their armor and weapon systems while under fire in the Pacific theater?

    1. I reverse your analogy and fire it back at you: how many dozen times was this done in Star Trek or Star Wars?

      WW2 analogies can only carry you so far. ;-)

    2. Times that one ship had its weapons and armor refit from another ship while under fire?

      In Star Wars: none
      In Star Trek: none

      In Battlestar Galactica: none
      In Babylon 5: none

    3. Who said anything about another ship? They do it from THEIR OWN SHIP. "Shift deflector shields double front!" "Modulate shield nutations!" "Transfer phaser power to shields." "Intensify the forward batteries, I don't want anything to get through."

    4. None of those situations involve refitting a ship system.

      Shifting deflector screens to double front is used in Star Wars, its a power application scheme. In Eve, this is similar to overheating a module.

      Modulating shield frequencies is used in Star Trek. Modulating the harmonic frequency electromagnetic waves we can do in the real universe, right now, and it does not involve removing a system and replacing it with another, you just turn the dial on your radio. In Eve terms, this is similar to changing laser frequency crystals.

      Intensifying forward batteries, used in Babylon 5 also is a power shift, similar to Eve's overheating.

      In all these cases, no module is ever removed from the ship and replaced with another module, either from another ship or from a part kept in storage.

      In no case do you hear Geordi Laforge say to one of his engineers, "Yo dude, we're under attack, why don't you go down and remove the defector dish and replace it with reflective armor plating."

    5. I disagree with your examples, but I'll stick with noticing that you skipped right over "transfer phaser power to shields" which is pretty much exactly pulling low-slot damage mods out and replacing them with tank mods.

    6. As a hardcore ST:TOS fan, I can assure you that Scotty was always actively swapping ship modules during battles, while Kirk was busy jumping up and down on the bridge. You just didn't get to see it all on camera.

      That's the real reason why the original Enterprise always won.... mid-battle refitting. :)

      For example, let's just swap that Romulan cloaking device right in, where our deflector shield goes and GTFO now....

    7. C'mon Jester. I dont see the Enterprise built to EVE standards either. When you can show us the slot layout, CPU and Grid of the Enterprise, then you have an argument.

      Star Wars/Trek analogies can only carry you so far. ;)

      Swing and a miss on this one.

    8. Good point.
      Though that just means that refitting some modules should be allowed (E-War/W-upg./Hardeners/etc.) while others not, as it´s too immersion(heh, I know) breaking (platings/shld.extenders/rigs).

      Bottomline is this is viable emergent behavior, but it needs to be balanced. We´re now in the "cruise missiles on Kestrels" phase of this.

    9. "In no case do you hear Geordi Laforge say to one of his engineers, "Yo dude, we're under attack, why don't you go down and remove the defector dish and replace it with reflective armor plating."" - And while you do not hear this, you do see him to re-calibrate the deflector dish to withstand enemy weapon fire better. Or use the deflector dish to emit a particle beam which destroys the enemy ship or sabotage their systems.

      Refits via technobabble, even refits to create time-travel are common in star trek.

    10. Star Trek - Enterprise: Installed Phase cannons while deployed. I believe they also installed shielding technology under fire.

      Star Trek - The Next Generation: Developed modulating shield frequencies while under attack by the Borg. Developed remodulated phaser frequencies to damage Borg.

    11. That is just desperation on your part, hoping that I deliberately skipped one. The truth is that you listed so many power management quotations that I simply missed one. If I wanted to, I could flip your ad hominem back at you by noticing that you never answered my original question.

      Star Trek Federation Fleet ships, similar to US military doctrine as well as Traveller from which Eve drew inspiration, are designed with power plants sufficient for 100% operation. That is every power drawing system can operate at the same time and continuously without drawing upon reserves. Not that they don't have reserves, but they just don't need to use them in most fights.

      That being said, phasers and deflector screens are designed to deal with more power than per design if need be, but large surges of power burn them out. This is the same as overheating modules in Eve.

      As a Gallente pilot, I have been known to set my guns and drones and then go to the bathroom. Occasionally, when I come back, the rats have gotten the better of my ship, as it is dipping into armor and the capacitor is running low. I then "transfer phaser power to shields" by clicking off my blasters and clicking on both of my armor repair modules. Once armor has been repaired, I "transfer shield power back to phasers" by clicking off my armor repairers and clicking on my blasters.

    12. "Intensifying forward batteries, used in Babylon 5 also is a power shift, similar to Eve's overheating."

      Go watch Return of the Jedi, plz.

      Have you ever even seen Babylon 5? Tell me one time when that phrase is ever used in the show. Ever.


    13. This argument is silly.

      It doesn't matter if a similar "tactic" has been shown in scifi before or not. That has NO BEARING on this. None. You could maybe argue believability, but then I would point out that Eve is a universe where technology has advanced to incredible lengths. I doubt the lore couldn't justify such a tactic.

      And really what this boils down to, is that mid-battle refitting is an ingenious and creative tactic using already-existing game mechanics to develop emergent gameplay. This is a GOOD THING. Remember, Eve online is a game. It must ultimately submit to being enjoyable as a game. I think we can all manage to hand-wave a little thing like this for whatever reason you might think it's inappropriate, because what it has allowed is a fantastic, fresh, and new approach to the game's strategy. That is quite possibly the single best thing you can do for any game.

    14. THis whole argument is pointless, wether mid-combat ship refitting will be kept or not must be considered in terms of what is good for the game, who cares about realism, and even worse "realism" comming from other sci-fi universes?

      I like the idea of mid-combat refitting a lot, and I would even love for CCP to facilitate it by allowing players to refit from the fitting window or by macros to have it done much faster. And no, I don't have a super, or even a normal cap.

  3. Its the same line of reasoning that lead to the orca nerf -- where ccp prevented you from hot swapping your ships during combat. The idea is that you should fight with what you bring -- but honestly all these types of limitations do is take the "smart" out of the game play. Ultimately people bitch and moan about how eve combat is won and lost before the fight even begins -- that pilot skill (except perhaps here kiting is involved) is an after thought. Changes like this reinforce that belief and make eve combat more predictable and boring -- giving and increasing advantage to the blob.

  4. While I understand the emergent gameplay arguement I think that is trumped by the way mid-fight refitting removes risk. You can have the reward of blap fitting your titan to kill subcaps without the risk of major holes in your tank. Any actual threat will just result in the titan refitting to a proper tank.

    As it stands now mid-fight refitting is a capital only tactic. Level the playing field with its removal or with the addition of a practical way to excute on the sub cap scale.

  5. I see another summer of rage coming. I don't own a Titan and don't ever see this as anything I want to do. It would be a waste of a character for me. I have hit F1 for my alliance and ground Sov (this mechanic is one of the worst). I've mined and ran missions, plexes and scanned sites. After 4 years of playing this game (when I have a chance). I'm ready for content. Some of these "fixes" are appreciated. However, it has become nerf, nerf, tinker and it's getting old. It is all to do with rl money. What will bring the players? Well hell I've spent a lot of money on this game before plex was introduced. The wonderment brings players. The CONTENT keeps them around. The disenfranchised feeling we get as "bitter vets" isn't about the loss of a tactic or should I say tomorrows exploit. It's the fun in the game. Fun we pay for. Yeah I know. Who pays for the game anymore. If not money then time is spent. As far as I'm concerned the 18 months of crap have not stopped. It's only getting worse. HTFU has turned to how can we strap more cash out of them without actually having to program more content. I stick around for friends in game and fewer play anymore, and because I have an investment of time and money in my character. It's like gambling and knowing when to get out. Stupidly I sit and wait for content-ment.

  6. This change would be like a pink elephant crashing through the ceiling and CRUSHING EVE FOREVER BENEATH ITS BULK.

  7. You realize it doesn't make much sense, don't you?

    Looking at Eve as a simulator, saying that ships can refit like that is saying that military air-crafts, armors and sea-vessels can change any of their equipment on-the-fly in just a couple of seconds.

    In this sense if you still want to allow in-space fitting changes, under any circunstances, you'd need to put a timer, say 1min, for each change.

    You say this is emergent gameplay, but if it doesn't make sense does it even matter?

    1. You realize that in-space refitting exists in the game today... right?

    2. So does all the loopholes in the aggression/wardec mechanics. People exploiting them is emergent game-play too, but it doesn't mean it was intended to be used that way.

      Changing these things is about refining the model.

    3. "saying that ships can refit like that is saying that military air-crafts, armors and sea-vessels can change any of their equipment on-the-fly in just a couple of seconds." - Nope, its not. Your analogy is lacking, you are ignoring eve technology and you are ignoring the even today military equipment is highly adaptive. And you are furthermore ignoring that you just can only refit modules.

    4. Jet can mining was never intended either. Now there is a ship that actually supports it. Not all emergent gameplay is bad. I happen to think that R&K have a really nice thing going on with in fight refitting.

  8. Combat refitting is the root (or at least a major enabler) of all supercap faggotry, especially tracking titans. Drop 'hillarious blap' titans on field and start blapping. Primaried by 1000 subcaps? Counter dropped? No problem, just refit to brick tank and you are safe. I have been involved at least in one occasion where a titan would have died to subcaps, were it not for refitting. With this change, the blap brigade would have to choose between blapping & risk totalhelldeath at the hand of a combat fit counter drop / subcap blob, or coward fit and be much less effective against subcaps, but not both. I have no problem removing this iWin switch button.

    Here is a post by Ganthrithor that articulates the issue in more details: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=953162#post953162.

    Also buff hics and dics and supercap tackling in general. Also I agree with Grayscale on the broader issue, not just for titans by the way. I may even end up +liking a Grayscale post. Also fuck Seleene, PL, RnK and their crappy videos.

  9. How about adding a mid-slot or high-slot MODULE that prevents combat re-fitting for the targeted ship? This would add to emergent gameplay and tactics rather than take something away.

  10. Karbox DelacroixApril 9, 2012 at 1:53 PM

    It is so sad that Greyscale chose to go this route because given a choice, CCP has once again decided to feed the blob. The substitute for battlefield refits are to have a Titan waiting to bridge in reinforcements. Is this in any way reasonable? Carriers are at least within the grasp of most players. Also, this will make it much easier for Titans to do their drive by DDs. Carriers will be unable to refit for DD damage type and we should expect more dead carriers. GG.

    1. "...CCP has once again decided to feed the blob..."

      CCP *wants* blobs in their game. They know that huge fleet fights are a huge selling point, and are something which player aspire to. They also want to increase the extent to which additional players add power to an alliance, rather than just more money or more skill points.

      They know that the one thing which dramatically increases the expected time a new player subscribes for is getting involved in a null-sec alliance. New players really want to do this also (which is why goons have an endless supply of scam targets). However, null-sec alliances are less keen on recruiting them.

      Now imagine you're CCP and you want to provide an incentive for alliances to recruit more new/high-sec players - what would you do?

  11. Meh, I can live without midfight module changing. It's immersion breaking, and effectively uncounterable unless you happen to have your own refitting service.

    Tying it to agression/being locked etc seems much better. Refit before the fight begins if you want to. Once it starts, you're committed to your fit

  12. My guess is that the next changes will be disallowing dual prop fits, removing the ability to diable mods during a fight, forbidding the looting of ships/cans mid-battle to resupply cap boosters and ammo, et ad infinitum... eventually, culminating in the inability to change modules on your ship at all (ie. just like rigs).

    Where do you draw a line on "fight with what you fit?"

    I'd prefer to see CCP go the other direction instead - allowing *all* ships to refit during a battle, assuming (a) the refit takes some finite amount of time, ie. not instantly; (b) the swapped modules all need to fit within the ship's cargohold (ie. forcing a tradeoff between expendibles and modules); and (c) the swapped modules still need to conform to the ship's CPU/PG limitations. Keeping the cap requirement on bringing offlined modules back online would be a good limitator, too.

    More dynamic, more unpredictable --> more fun!

  13. Fitting services should be able to support in-combat of refitting ships one size-class down. Introduce a new ship class or module type to allow in-combat refitting of same-size ships or larger (i.e.: specialised combat dry docks or tenders). That, and ensuring that some kind of visual effect accompanies the access to the fitting service.

    Combat refitting is perfectly fine, but there needs to be some penalty for the facility.

    1. THIS! So very much this.
      I´m actually with Greyscale on this issue, but it is a viable emergent gameplay and thus must be channeled by CCP, not abolished.

      I´d use the Noctis hull for your tender idea but only for cruisers and below. The Orca & carriers would work only on non caps and the Titan on everything else BUT Titans.
      We´re nerfing Titans, remember?

      The reason I´m not happy about this, is because it introduces even MORE complexity into an already too complex and increasingly hard to balance gameplay.
      Probably Greyscale´s main toothache with this whole thing too.

  14. Mid-fight refit must go for two reasons:
    - at first it's unrealistic. You can't put armor plating on a ship in a second
    - it's NOT a choice, it's a MUST. If you don't refit your titans midfight, you are an idiot. So the existence of this feature forces someone to play refiting ship which doesn't look like a fun gameplay.

    1. Realism? Hee! That said, if you think about it, you'll realize you CAN put additional armor plate on a ship while it's being attacked... from the inside of the ship, covering structural damage as it happens.

    2. "you CAN put additional armor plate on a ship while it's being attacked..."

      Yes, but it doesn't happen in a couple seconds.

    3. Why not?

      There is this cool MMO spaceship game where you can dock in a station, and swap modules, change guns, and add armor plates all in a matter of seconds.

      Very realistic.

    4. Quite right. Neither does patching holes in armour plating after taking damage.

      I guess you'll want to see armour repair modules nerfed then, too. Oh, and the in-station repair service.

    5. Actually with the technology of the eve universe YOU CAN do this in a couple of seconds.

    6. Magic beams of light that instantly replenish shields, refill capacitors, and patch holes in the ship.

  15. I'm fine with sub cap refitting. I'm fine with capital refitting. I'm not fine with super capital refitting.

    Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water because 4 ships are busted. That's a bit heavy handed. Add a code check for titans, possibly super carriers, and add a text bit that says "The ship is too damn big to do this.".

    And, in some far off future date, if titans are actually redone and rebalanced for a real role instead of mobile death stars.... remove the check.

  16. A compromise would be that ships that are being targeted suffer the same restrictions on refitting as normal ships onlining and offlining modules in empty space, namely:

    * require 95% capacitor to initiate
    * drop down to 30% capacitor when successful

    This makes combat refitting a valid tactic, but

    * only with sufficient cap transfer support
    * with a built-in timer, since cap must regen or be transferred from 30% to 95%
    * with a built-in counter, as neuting below 95% cap will prevent refitting.

    1. I actually like this idea. Not sure how hard it would be to implement, but it would allow the emergent gameplay while also making it have consequences.

  17. I would vote for increasing the risk of this action, but not removing it. How about lowering the speed of both ships, the one refitting and the refittet to 0 and lowering their resistances to 0 for lets say 30 seconds? This way refitting carries a considerable risk and refitting ships are a natural primary.

    1. I like this. IF refitting should be kept, commit the refitting ship to a vulnerable state.

      I also like the suggestion further up saying refitting be limited to smaller class ships than the support vessel.

      But in all, in-fight refitting just allows TOO much change to a ship. Some shifting, like Jester so much likes, I could appreciate. Though I would say overheating and drugs are EVE's implementation of it.

      And then we have a first module doing the little shifting : the adapting invulnerability shield.

    2. If you lower resistances to zero you are effectively improving super capitals. Why? You will be unable to refit your carrier to try and avoid a Titan's Doomsday. Also, as the R&K video showed, you will be unable to refit to Triage/tank Mothership fighters/bombers.

  18. Here's a second vote for restricting locked ships to using their own capacitor to bring modules online: it puts a premium on intelligent escort support for the supercaps that want to do combat refitting, and makes the decision to refit as much strategic as tactical.

    And if you really want to make it a risky tactic? Make it so a combat refit offlines EVERYTHING. Force that Titan pilot to choose what needs to be brought back up first, whether he's going to sacrifice his guns to get his tank up and running, or forego every defensive mod he has in order to bring his doomsady online.

  19. How about making the refit take some time? First, you have to offline and remove the installed module which takes some amount of time, leaving you with some dead slots for a period of time. Then installing the new module takes some time before it can be onlined.

  20. Serpentinelogic. There is no need at all for compromise. None at all. Combat refits are valid tactic that makes combat more interesting. Your "compromise" simply makes it an invalid tactic.

    And it is completely retarded to remove this game mechanic just to fix supers. If this is a problem with supers, than disable this feature for supers and be done with it. No big deal. One afternoon of coding.

  21. Well it took a while, but nice to see you eventually came through on your promise... ;)

  22. My last fight in New Eden resulted in a spectacular loss on my part- to a pilot that refitted her ship inside her alt's Obelisk.

    I was speechless! I had yet to experience such a tactic. As my Rifter was engulfed in a terrific explosion, I immediately became fascinated with engaging in similar tactics.

    To remove this from the game would be an utter mistake on the part of CCP. It would rate right up there with micro-transactions in exchange for equipment upgrades...

  23. Apropos static... Didn´t I read the same exact sentence about a year ago??

    "I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about four years."

    Years add up, don´t they? ;o)

    1. Yeah, it's either nearly time to change that to a five, or it was just time to. I'll need to double-check.

  24. Greyscale is back from the easter break and once again posting in the thread. He's saying that he is leaning away from changing refitting at this time. He also clarifies his earlier posts a bit.


    1. This is good stuff. Thanks for the pointer.

  25. The more layers in Eve, the better Eve is. Refitting in space is not a win button, so I don't see why it should be removed. Unless the first comment is correct (but I hope he isn't).

    And bring on that tender CCP :)

  26. I'm sure it says something when the comments section in a post on Jester's Trek produces a better discussion than the dedicated EVE-O threads.

    Keep up the good work Jester!

  27. "Stop people from refitting their ships while they're being targeted"

    "refitting dreads from gank fit to tank fit when challenged, the dual triage carrier support that Rooks and Kings is so good at, and refitting line battleships for specialty duties are only three emergent game-play mechanics that combat refitting allows."

    Stealth buff to jamming ships much?

  28. Im with CCP Gryscale on this one.
    Midcombat refitting needs to go.

    Im all for options during fights and EvE doesnt really deliver there but to go this route would be a mistake IMO.

    Not only would it be a considerable buff to jamming ships where does it end?
    Refitting ships from gank to tank when they are attacked, fitting stabs as GTFO option and similar tactics would probably become the norm.

    A ship fitting is supposed to be a compromise between tank, gank and utility. Where is that compromise when you allow refitting midcombat?

    I think its gone.
    So is the decision making process how to fit your ship.

    I am not sure it would prove a good direction of development for Eve combat.

    Just my $0.02

  29. A simple question, since so many issues of refitting rage seem to be based on Titans:

    What if the only nerf to this concept was deciding that TITANS can't refit mid-combat, but everything else still can?

    Because the only real issues I've seen from reading involve Titans being able to do it.

  30. Bit of good news, Grayscale is back and engaged quite heavily in conversation (always a good sign) in the titan nerf thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1106215#post1106215

    Snippet: `We're currently leaning towards not making any general changes to refitting in space. I'm hopeful that we'll be able to make enough changes to titans that blapping goes away anyway and this issue drops off our short-term radar, and if this isn't the case we're more likely to do a targeted adjustment to supercaps (possibly letting them keep their SMA but removing the fititng service). I'm still not yet happy with explicitly supporting this sort of thing for cap/subcap stuff (because it's the first step into a potentially very deep rabbit hole and I don't want to set that precedent right now), but the arguments in this thread have been good enough that I'm preferring to deliberately avoid touching the issue right now.`

    We need refitting mid-fight to stay, it adds so much needed gameplay and diversity.

    And for someone who's bent on killing reffited carriers/dreads/BS's/etc. - I would say on most battles now there's enough DPS/neuts on grid to cut through even the most tankier setups with ease. Would also like point to the same RNK video and invite peeps to see how easily those carriers went out of sync - for this strategy to work well you need a lot of experience, balls of steel and preparation and even then things can go wrong. I bet LM has a ton of fraps where they failed this strategy or something went wrong and carriers capped out.

    Just because there are some videos out that show this can work with incredible success doesn't mean it always does (ie. tankier triage/siege setups going down in 40sec instead of 30).

  31. Lots of Star Trek nerd porn going on here - very entertaining. My 2 cents - 2 words - Pit stop.

    So, in reality, there are pit stops during races/competitions, where real vehicles can go and get their stuff fixed up, WHILE in competition.

    So real life > Star trek? God I hope not!

    1. Been doing some thinking about this lately, and I have to come down on the NO! to mid-combat/tactical refitting. I recognize that this is emergant gameplay but what I feel it comes down to is an exploit.

      My reasoning is this. De-coupling/unlatching all of the power connections, sensors, ammunition feeds, damage control runs, etc... then rmoving the turret/bay and exchanging it for something else and then plugging everything back in in the middle of a fight. Hoping no-one notices at puts some sort of munition or laser into the vacated hole doing damage that bypasses shield, and armor blasting directly into structure.

      Damage control and emergency repair during battle is one thing, Refit is a yard job and should be kept there


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