Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Friday, April 27, 2012

Week in the Life: Bottleneck

So, over the last few weeks, we've been seeing Technetium do this.

That's five days ago.  Today, the Tech buy price in Jita is over 200,000 per unit.  And "OTEC", the Organization of Technetium Exporting Corporations has apparently gone from "troll" to "reality".  OTEC apparently started as a troll by Mittens to see if he could drive the price of Technetium up in the market.  But then he actually started chatting with the alliances that control this stuff, and after that... Goons gotta Goon.  I've already written about that.

Let's talk actual impact.  How much Technetium actually goes into stuff?

The question came into my head because Wilhelm Arcturus wrote a piece at The Ancient Gaming Noob focusing on this stuff, but in that piece, he said:
I recently saw an estimate that Technetium makes up something like 40% of the sale price of a Hulk.
And that struck me as a really low estimate.  So it set me to wondering, on a value basis, how much Technetium actually goes into a Hulk?  It quickly became one of those questions that, had I known the amount of work that it would take to answer the question, I never would have asked it.  ;-)  But below, you'll find the answer.

I apologize in advance: scary math ahead.  Matter of fact, if you're not into the industry side of EVE, you might want to skip the entire table that's coming up and just rejoin me at the very bottom.  I've only included the table so that the industrialists out there can check my figures.  Ready?  Here we go.


Mineral and PI components
Construction BlocksToxic Metals50 @ 402000
Reactive Metals50 @ 402000
R.A.M. - Starship TechTritanium10 @ 5025020
Pyerite10 @ 4024020
Mexallon10 @ 2012010
Isogen10 @ 74740
Nocxium10 @ 32320
Subtotal Minerals and PI components
Tritanium2,133,214@ 6.05= 12,905,945
Pyerite651,531@ 7.01= 4,567,233
Mexallon61,836@ 51.45= 3,181,463
Isogen18,651@ 93.46= 1,743,123
Nocxium4307@ 945.21= 4,071,019
Zydrine1034@ 1623.59= 1,678,792
Megacyte271@ 3370= 913,270
Morphite72@ 14,706= 1,058,832
Reactive Metals2000@ 315.56= 631,120
Toxic Metals2000@ 176.25= 352,500

T2 Construction Components
Crystalline Carbonide Armor PlateCrystalline Carbonide2600 @ 40= 104,000
Sylramic Fibers2600 @ 10= 26,000
Fusion Reactor UnitCrystalline Carbonide39 @ 8= 312
Fermionic Condensates39 @ 1= 39
Ferrogel39 @ 1= 39
Ion ThrusterCrystalline Carbonide52 @ 12= 624
Ferrogel52 @ 1= 52
Phenolic Composites52 @ 3= 156
Magnetometric Sensor ClusterCrystalline Carbonide195 @ 12= 2340
Hypersynaptic Fibers195 @ 2= 390
Nanotransitors195 @ 1= 195
Oscillator Capacitor UnitCrystalline Carbonide520 @ 24= 12,480
Fullerides520 @ 15= 7800
Nanotransitors520 @ 1= 520
Photon MicroprocessorCrystalline Carbonide2600 @ 12= 31,200
Nanotransitors2600 @ 5= 13,000
Phenolic Composites2600 @ 1= 2600
Pulse Shield EmitterCrystalline Carbonide195 @ 20= 3900
Ferrogel195 @ 1= 195
Sylramic Fibers195 @ 8= 1560
Subtotal T2 Construction Components
Crystalline Carbonide154,856
Sylramic Fibers27,560
Fermionic Condensates39
Phenolic Composites2756
Hypersynaptic Fibers390

T2 Moon Mining Materials
Carbon Polymers154,856/10,000= 15.49@ 50 Hydrocarbons= 775

= 15.49@ 50 Silicates= 775
Crystalline Alloy154,856/10,000= 15.49@ 50 Cadmium= 775

= 15.49@ 50 Cobalt= 775
Sylramic FibersCeramic Powder27,560/6000= 4.59@ 50 Evap Deposits= 230

= 4.59@ 50 Silicates= 230
Hexite27,560/6000= 4.59@ 50 Chromium= 230

= 4.59@ 50 Platinum= 230
Caesarium Cadmide39/200= 0.20@ 50 Cadmium= 10

= 0.20@ 50 Caesium= 10
Dysporite39/200= 0.20@ 50 Dysprosium= 10

= 0.20@ 50 Mercury= 10
Fluxed Condensates39/200= 0.20@ 50 Neodymium= 10

= 0.20@ 50 Thulium= 10
Prometium39/200= 0.20@ 50 Cadmium= 10

= 0.20@ 50 Promethium= 10
FerrogelFerrofluid286/400= 0.72@ 50 Dysprosium= 36

= 0.72@ 50 Hafnium= 36
Hexite286/400= 0.72@ 50 Chromium= 36

= 0.72@ 50 Platinum= 36
Hyperflurite286/400= 0.72@ 50 Promethium= 36

= 0.72@ 50 Vanadium= 36
Prometium286/400= 0.72@ 50 Cadmium= 36

= 0.72@ 50 Promethium= 36
Caesarium Cadmide2756/2200= 1.26@ 50 Cadmium= 63

= 1.26@ 50 Caesium= 63
Silicon Diborite2756/2200= 1.26@ 50 Evap Deposits= 63

= 1.26@ 50 Silicates= 63
Vanadium Hafnite2756/2200= 1.26@ 50 Hafnium= 63

= 1.26@ 50 Vanadium= 63
Dysporite390/750= 0.52@ 50 Dysprosium= 26

= 0.52@ 50 Mercury= 26
Solerium390/750= 0.52@ 50 Evap Deposits= 26

= 0.52@ 50 Silicates= 26
Vanadium Hafnite390/750= 0.52@ 50 Caesium= 26

= 0.52@ 50 Chromium= 26
NanotransistorsNeo Mercurite13,715/1500= 9.15@ 50 Mercury= 458

= 9.15@ 50 Neodymium= 458
Platinum Technite13,715/1500= 9.15@ 50 Platinum= 458

= 9.15@ 50 Technetium= 458
Sulfuric Acid13,715/1500= 9.15@ 50 Atmo Gases= 458

= 9.15@ 50 Evap Deposits= 458
FulleridesCarbon Polymers7800/3000= 2.60@ 50 Hydrocarbons= 130

= 2.60@ 50 Silicates= 130
Platinum Technite7800/3000= 2.60@ 50 Platinum= 130

= 2.60@ 50 Technetium= 130
Total T2 Moon Mining Materials
Atmospheric Gasses458@ 176.26= 80,728
Cadmium894@ 2457.66= 2,197,148
Caesium99@ 2107.81= 208,673
Chromium292@ 2235.06= 652,637
Cobalt775@ 666.27= 516,359
Dysprosium72@ 8901.31= 640,894
Evaporite Deposits777@ 834.79= 648,632
Hafnium99@ 2453.71= 242,918
Hydrocarbons905@ 202.52= 183,281
Mercury494@ 3905.25= 1,929,194
Neodymium468@ 15,128.39= 7,080,086
Platinum854@ 3035.65= 2,592,446
Promethium82@ 3620.12= 296,850
Silicates1224@ 1080.81= 1,322,912
Technetium588@ 201,007= 118,192,116
Thulium10@ 3015.08= 30,151
Vanadium99@ 2891.77= 286,286

Total Materials and Value Proportions
Raw materialValueProportion
Technetium118,192,116       70.3%
EVERYTHING ELSE       8,023,0434.8%


On a raw material value basis, Technetium makes up 70% of a Hulk.

And I suspect if I ran the numbers for most other Tech 2 ships and modules, the answer would be the same.  And it's only going to go up if "OTEC" decides to restrict the supply of Tech.  By the way, don't get the impression that it costs 170 million to build a Hulk.  It does not.  I haven't included the invention process, which is expensive.  One of these days, I need to write a blog post about that.  But yeah, in terms of the actual materials that go into a Hulk, Tech is 70%.

Kinda puts an interesting spin on the biggest Tech-holder in the game trying to blow up a lot of Hulks, doesn't it?

Still think Goons aren't looking to grief them some high-sec players?


  1. It's a pretty entertaining troll, isn't it :)

  2. "Still think Goons aren't looking to grief them some high-sec players? "


    The two elements are not mutually exclusive. Hulkaggeddon both entertains Goons with tears and makes them rich.

    But before Hulkaggeddon was even a gleam in Helicity's eye Goons were doing Jihads against high sec miners. They had no technetium at that point.

    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

  3. So basically, they're not only trolling/griefing miners, but they're making craptons of money off of it by being the only way for them to get replacements.
    I think Mittens has proven by now that banning him is not only completely useless, but it also leads to profit. Lots and lots of profit.

  4. Rather glad I have no problem flying T1 ships, T1 fitted. It may not be the most "optimal" fit, but dangit, it's CHEAP.

    Makes me wonder how expensive people will be willing to go if fitting a ship started doubling or tripling for T2 gear.

    1. Krixtal IcefluxorApril 28, 2012 at 9:27 AM

      All we hear about is how everyone has 'too much ISK' in-game. Doubling or tripling prices makes no difference. Won't stop me from flying.

  5. Well, sure, it is 70% when you leave out dealer markup, the extended warranty, and that special undercoat that keeps your hulk from rusting in the winter....

    1. Minmatar don't use that undercoat

    2. And you see what comes of it! Rust everywhere!

  6. Funny the first thing I noticed was how many crystalline carbonide armor plates go into that thing. I thing we need to start using something besides crystalline carbonide to make those armor plates, as they don't seem to be very protective :).


  7. Excellent!
    I hope Goons drive the price up to 200 hundred MILLION.

    This crappy technetium bottle neck needs to die ASAP.
    Just more useless and ridiculously easy gankable future "ring mining" barges won´t help one bit with this retarded game mechanic.

    As a bleeding heart carebear I for one applaud those stinking Goons.

    HA! Bloody brilliant. :D

  8. Made a post a while back about calculating invention costs. Someone had hit my blog looking for that very topic. I didn't use a hulk as my example though.


  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

  10. I think it's still just a troll, just a successful one. People panicked and bought up Tc.

    I'm 100% sure that "OTEC" can't regulate Tc production. Even if they agree to do so, they would all lie and smuggle TC. The real OPEC can control oil as counting oil tankers on the sea is easier than counting jump freighters. Especially if they are on neutral alts. Without restricting production the price cannot elevate.

    The alternative is that Tc rise is from increased demand and The Mittani just try to act like he is causing it to inflate his fame. Please note it's elevating constantly, long before he announced anything.

    1. Really? Opec controls oil price? I want what your smoking.
      They've been trying to get the price under control for over 18 months, despite their best efforts its been going up and up and up.

    2. Krixtal IcefluxorApril 28, 2012 at 9:30 AM

      Goons own almost every single Technetium providing moon. THAT has been the issue for YEARS. Where have you been ?

    3. Yes, and we've always been at war with eurasia.

    4. Opec does control oil prices to a large extent. If they flooded the market with increased production, the market price would eventually drop when there are 100's of millions of barrel of oil sitting there on the market and can not be used due to no more refinary capacity. The price for oil would drop at that point. But until that happens, prices won't drop, and we have not hit the point where production exceeds refinary capacity...

    5. WoW.
      He's been in WoW.
      Aren't you paying attention?

  11. wooops. yeah, never mind me. nothing to see here. *waits to delete dumbass statement about alchemy and tech* doh

  12. question remains...why is tech so expensive? am i partially correct about alchemy? damn work getting in the way. bbiab

  13. Amusing, but we already knew that Tech moons were the biggest cash cow in Eve - orders of magnitude easier and more profitable to milk for ISK than Incursions and L4 missions *combined*. How else can you afford to build, and lose, fleets of Titans?

    Fortunately, as one of my fellow Anon posters noted, T1 ships and modules need no Tech moon products. If this means that everyone just starts using more T1 ships and mods, rather than rushing to get into T2 ships and mods, this works for me.

    The Mittani is actually doing CCP a great favor. T2 has gotten too cheap - when every 3-month old noob in the game can afford to fit and fly with T2, what's the point of T1 anyways?

    And, after Sreegs and Co. discover that a number of the Goons have been supplying ISK to RMT sellers, they will hold the record for the most negative wallets in Eve history. That should also take care of the "too much ISK in Eve" problem, as well.

    1. Krixtal IcefluxorApril 28, 2012 at 9:31 AM

      Then you will be mowed down by those that ARE flying T2...i.e, Goons.

    2. well, yes, but you forget about insurance covering T1 but not T2. that's a meaningful isk sink. And, excuse me, but i rather like the idea of 3 month old n00bs being able to fly ships they can train too without staring poverty in the face. You pvpers always talk about "never fly a ship you can't afford to lose"

    3. Mowed down by a Goon flying a T2? lol...

      I've killed so many T2 ships, using cheap-fit T1 ships, that it always makes me laugh when someone assumes that T2 = win.

      And, yes, this includes a barrelful of Goons. The Goons have been recruiting so many untalented (aka cannon fodder) players that the average quality of their pilots has been dropping precipitously.

      Once upon a time, it was a proud thing to kill a Goon 'cause you knew you were up against someone worth killing. Now, not so much. A lot of them really belong in high sec running missions....

    4. MinorFreak has a point. As it stands now, T1 is redundant, when everyone is expected to fly and fit T2.

      This is good news for starting industrialists, that until now needed to wait until they get into T2 manufacturing to start seeing any real cash flow.

  14. It's my understanding that Hulkageddon was always (loosely) driven by profit. In short, then the price of Hulks dropped far enough, Hulkageddon would happen and drive the prices back up.

    I haven't checked the historical numbers on this though.

    1. This was more true in the past when you could insure your ganking ship and get the loot in addition to the payout.

  15. I guess the trend in the future would go to tier1 fits in the majority for people. but also a good way to remove a lot of ISK for circulation as prices go up. see what CCP does.

    1. If you look up the definition of "tier" is basically means a layer or level or rank. Tier 1 battlecruisers are entry level or lowest rank and only require BC trained to level 1 to fly them. Like wise a tier 2 BC is a step up from tier 1 costs a little more and should in theory be a better ship and requires BC trained to level 2. Tier 3 BCs are the same only a little beter. We currently also have 3 tiers of Battleships and 3 tiers of tech 1 frigs.

      Technology level 2 or Tech 2 is, as the name would imply, a totally different technology. It uses different materials and different methodology to build and is significantly more powerful with multiple bonuses. It requires the tech 1 racial skill trained to 5 as well as the tech 2 ship skill. Examples are assault frigs or marauders or what ever.

      Since tech 2 is abbreviated T2 and tier 3 has been abbreviated T3 as well as tech 3 strategic cruisers being labeled T3 also it seems some people get confused. Tier 3 battlecruisers are tech level 1. They are made with normal minerals found in asteroids and require no moon minerals. They are also priced accordingly. Tech 3 cruisers are significantly more expensive and significantly more powerful than tier 3 tech 1 BCs.

      Jester if you have not done a blog on this topic could you please do so, so that people can just hyper link the explanation instead of having to spell this out in comments every time?

    2. It's worth pointing out that CCP are doing away with 'tiers' of ships come Inferno - all ships in the same class (brutix and myrmidon, for example) will have roughly equal strengths in the role they are designed to fill.

      It's never too late to learn new things of course, just not worth re-planning your training queue over.

  16. It doesn't remove isk from circulation, it just gives it to the people with Tech

  17. Funny thing is, Goons can just get people to pay them cash for Tech moons. This circumvents RMT. Pay me x amount of dollars a month, and you can take the tech out of the moon.

  18. Why not see it from another perspective! Mitanni, with OTEC will do what he couldnt do when he was a chairman of CSM!

    He will make the price rise so high and make so many people cry about the cartel that CCP will not be able to ignore it anymore and will be forced to change moongoo, not in the next 6 months but maybe in a month or 2!

    In the end, we will be in debt to Mitanni and thanking him again for abusing so much of something that it will finally be fixed. And no, I'm not a goons lover!

  19. In the long term this will not beneift EVE. Its player base is way too old now, its not attracting new players and while the bittervets moan about it the supply of new players will dry up.

    Jester any chance on an update on the user numbers, like that wonder curve blog?

  20. A couple of things.
    First, inventing hulk bpc's isn't that expensive. All in cost including decryptors, datacores and covetor bpc's bought on the market is about 25mm per copy (the calculation is the cost of the inputs divided by the percentage chance to succeed in the invention, and adjusted for the number of copies you get given the decryptor). With materials costs of 170mm and the bpc at 25mm, there is plenty of manufacturing profit in building hulks.

    Second, CCP can always play with alchemy to ease up the tech shortage, just as it did with dysprosium back in the day

    1. To further the happiness of Dust514, CCP will announce the next expansion: EVE Moon Rising
      This will introduce moon interaction replacing POS moon mining.

      This will make everyone happy.

    2. i think anonymous might be a psychic

  21. By the way, don't get the impression that it costs 170 million to build a Hulk. It does not. I haven't included the invention process, which is expensive. One of these days, I need to write a blog post about that.

    bitch please, everyone knows that if you do it yourself, its free. So if you want a hulk mine the ores, buy a bpo, invent the bpc and you have a free hulk sans the tech, which yu will have to buy, unless youre a techmoon holder, then its a completely free hulk.

    1. Covetor BPO is not free and if you are looking just to make one for yourself you are much better off buying BPCs. Anything that you mine yourself has value. Now you can buy the minerals or mine the ore and refine the minerals but either way those minerals have value. You could sell them or run missions and buy them. If you wanted to be smart about it you could figure out which way you could make isk fastest and do more of that to buy the stuff you need or want. It's not very efficient to do everything yourself.

      Now it may be fun to build yourself a hulk on your own from start to finish but the time you spent doing so does not make it free. After all with all the pretend things in the virtual universe of Eve your time is the only real and quantifiable thing.

    2. @OP: Opportunity cost. Go google it.

  22. There is one point everyone seems to be missing. Covetors mine about 20% less than Hulks. With all of the mineral changes from drone compounds and meta 0 loot disappearing if you add a 20% base reduction in mining ships yield then the price of everything goes up.

    So increasing the cost of T2 to the point of unaffordability affects everything indirectly and not just T2 items.

  23. At the dev meetup last nights, Soundwave mentioned that they were planning on adding an alchemy recipe for tech later in the year, so this won't last for more about six months. still could be a painful six months...

    1. yes, look how well alchemy has worked for the previous bottleneck :P

  24. By the way in russian and bulgarian otec means father. Not sure if it is coincidence. just saying

  25. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Technetium says that it's the suppliers that have driven the price up and has nothing to do with it's intrinsic value.

    http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1214702 That thread's OP had some very good points on the bottleneck and what to do about it (including suggesting alchemy)

    hmmmm...so doing a bit of homework i realize alchemy was for substituting the "R64" rarity moon goo, and technetium is "R32" of which includes mercury, hafnium and caesium. Put another way, the group that platinum technite belongs to includes Vanadium Hafnite, Solerium, and Caesarium Cadmide whose market history are more tepid than Platinum Technite.
    Obviously, looking at Jester's data none of these materials are worth anywhere near platinum technite...I just don't understand why only technetium moons are so valuable? I mean, what about mercury, hafnium and caesium moon distribution and rarity compared to technetium - aren't they just as 'rare' in new eden?
    Is this all about cartels being better at moon monopoly in Gurista space?

    highest buyer & volume
    atmospheric gases 180
    evaporite deposits 650
    hydrocarbons 202
    silicates 1101
    cobalt 666
    scandium 760-1550 (spike)
    titanium 1171
    tungsten 559
    cadmium 2462 (growth)
    vanadium 2892 (long term plateau)
    chromium 2235 (bell curve low)
    platinum 3423 (stable)
    caesium 2112 (bumpy)
    technetium 202,041 (wtf)
    hafnium 2453 (stable)
    mercury 3910 (stable)
    promethium 3654 (stable)
    dysprosium 7500 (stable)
    neodymium 15700 (stable)
    thulium 3020 (slow growth)

    why's it so disproportional? I have a really hard time beleiving it's merely supplier cartels alone because where's the caesium, hafnium and mercury cartels? mercury is also an ingredient in nanotransistors.

    Maybe ring mining will remove the bottlenecks and balance the situation, but maybe we do need alchemy for another class of reaction?
    Hafnium and Mercury are used in 3 alchemy reactions...can we add Caesium (r32) and Chromium (r16) to a new "unrefined platinum technite" alchemy result? As you can see from the above table both moon goos aren't exactly in their prime.

    1. The wiki is wrong. Tech prices have everything to do with demand for them, and (almost) nothing to do with supply.

      The basic problem with tech is that too many T2 components use it. What this means is that other types of moon goo have almost no uses outside of those which involve technetium. This creates a "bottleneck" where if you have the tech to build whatever you need, getting everything else is easy, as there are a surplus of suppliers. Moongoo is produced at close to zero cost, and demand is constrained by the bottleneck, so prices of non-tech moongoo plumet, while tech basically gains all of the value of T2 components/ships.

    2. It isn't just supply. When CCP "rebalanced" moon minerals and T2 recipes a few years ago they messed up. They made Tech the bottleneck in T2 production. Industry types (including goons) warned them that they were making a mistake, and were about to make a regional R32 more valuable than any of the R64s, but CCP did it anyway. With the new recipies, more tech was needed than actually exists in the universe, and unlike R64s, R32s couldn't be made through alchemy.

  26. i wonder if mittens is only doing that for griefing and money...
    cause 1) sure he likes griefing 2) i'm pretty sure goons don't care about money at the point they are...

    all these alliances ceo who accepted the deal agreed on something else before : that technium was bad.
    and last time ccp talked about they said they were okay with the current situation, but would rethink about it if price change.
    you know what ? price has changed.
    in fact, if the dark character who is mittens want tears, i'm pretty sure the guy behing the keyboard is trying to pressure again ccp to make them nerf technium and/or put comet mining on the top of the to do list...

    1. Well, it seems, if u want CCP to see things your way, u have to have an impact on the game (Jita riots anyone?).

      Maybe mittens didn't remove that CSM hat entirely. He found a way to influence CCP's decision making throu in game means. His passion for the game combined with his darkish soul and the goons behind him might be the thing EVE needs to focus CCP on the issues that needs attention.
      And since real life market and economy "simulation" is one of the founding pillars that EVE rests on, market manipulation can be an effective way to get things done by CCP.

      Or he just knows what is coming, and want's to get the most money out of his tech moons till he can!:)

  27. Mittani is a piece of shit. In real life he was disbarred by the state of Maryland for ethics reasons. The Goons are nothing but fat neckbearded social drop outs. Look up their You Tube videos of their "Goonfest" gatherings and count the fat rolls.

    The minute CCP sells Eve to EA Mittens and Goons are gone, a real company will not tolerate this sort of behaviour.

  28. Hey, Jester! I'm actually a goon myself and this was an interesting read; particularly your numerical analysis snip. We have a long history of being trolls since long before we started being terrible at Eve Online, so I imagine it's difficult to take anything I say with any remote seriousness. In the off chance you actually put worth to these words, hopefully it will serve to get you to keep writing.