Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Saturday, May 19, 2012

Farmville

I've been continuing to keep an eye on the current situation with the incursion nerf.  Things are happening fast over there.  As I've said a few times, when I need a quick injection of ISK for a project(1), I often turn to incursions myself.  As a result, I spent much of Wednesday and Thursday in shield Assault and HQ fleets.  As it turns out, this provided me a really good close-up look at how the community is handling the Sansha influence nerf that I wrote about a couple of weeks ago.

In a word, it's awful.  Completely awful.

Just to recap (skip the next two paras if you know this stuff or remember it from two weeks ago): when an incursion launches in a new system (state: Established), an influence bar is created which measures the impact being had on capsuleer damage and resists.  As I said in the post two weeks ago, these two numbers are very important.  Higher Sansha influence greatly increases the chances of ships dying even while under lots and lots of reps.  Higher Sansha influence also greatly reduces player DPS.  The result of this is two-fold: there tend to be more Sansha ships on the field for longer (further increasing the stress on the Logistics pilots) and sites take longer (reducing player income).

In the past, players could very rapidly reduce the Sansha influence bar to zero and didn't have any difficulty keeping it there.  This would essentially negate these two penalties.  Any (incorrect) stories you've heard about "risk-free ISK" from incursions stems from that.

It's very clear now that CCP nerfed Sansha influence, making it rise much more quickly.  This has created a vicious circle:
  • Sansha influence in an incursed constellation rises; thus,
  • higher Sansha influence makes it harder to run Vanguards; thus,
  • fewer players run Vanguards; thus,
  • the Sansha influence remains very high; thus,
  • any more difficult sites are much more dangerous or are just flat-out impossible; thus,
  • Sansha influence in an incursed constellation rises.
I've heard from people who are letting their accounts lapse until CCP addresses this.  The good news is that the GMs, at least, seem open to adjusting it.  I had a good conversation with DaiseyCutter and some of the other incursion community leadership.  They remain cautiously positive that CCP is listening to their concerns.  Of course, GMs are not devs and there's no telling what the devs think about this yet.  And of course, incursion-runners letting their accounts lapse just adds to the vicious circle.

Those players that are trying to stick with it are left with the consequences: fewer players running Vanguard sites means that the Sansha influence does not drop.  As I said a couple of weeks ago, just to keep the influence from rising... just to keep it stable, you need at least roughly four or five Vanguard fleets and one Assault fleet running.  An additional Assault fleet plus one HQ fleet will then let you drop the Sansha influence about 5-6% per hour.  That means it takes between 16 and 20 hours of continuous incursion-running by about 150 people to bring the influence to 0%.

The current communities can't do it.

As I said, I spent much of Wednesday and Thursday in incursion fleets all day both days.  For most of that time, the influence hovered in the 65-85% range.  In that range, the most difficult HQ site takes an hour to run.  An entire hour.  And in that time, the 40 people involved make about 30 million ISK.  Any LP rewards and a portion of that ISK are consumed by the simply massive amount of ammunition that's expended to complete the site.  I'm sure there are plenty of you out there gloating about this as you read it.  But you simply have to admit that there's no way CCP intended the sites to be this difficult or to take this amount of time.

And then the clock resets the next day and you have to start over again.

The fleets struggle all day to bring the influence down, and most days, they fail.  I saw long stretches that the influence never dropped below 80%.  And I personally witnessed at least a dozen ships destroyed over those two days.  God help you if your Logistics pilots start to panic, because if they do, that panic is contagious.  In one particularly awful site, the panic spread across much of the Logistics wing resulting in four Logi ships, a Nightmare, and a Vindicator being destroyed.

Anyone want to continue to say that incursions are risk-free ISK?  If so, I invite you to bring a Vindicator into one of the sites.  See for yourself.  No, I don't invite you.  I dare you.

But as I said a couple of weeks ago, if you do, you're going to have to link up with the incursion communities to do it.  The idea of independently running incursions is dead dead dead, at least for now.  As I write this, there are two high-sec incursions.  The shield and armor fleets have united to take on the one in Minmatar space (more on that in a second).  It's influence has been yo-yo'ing all day.  The other is in Amarr space and the influence hasn't moved from 100%... nor will it.

For now, uniting the communities is an experiment that's being run.  The shield and armor communities no longer have the numbers or the ability to drive down Sansha influence separately in two high-sec incursions.  As a result, they're being forced into an uneasy partnership and are attacking one high-sec incursion at a time.  On Thursday and Friday, the shield community struggled continuously for 30 hours to bring Sansha influence in the "first" Amarr incursion to 100% and held it there for a few minutes, long enough to spawn the mom.  Then they nearly immediately formed a fleet to kill the mom while the influence was high enough to make that a doable proposition.

And then the entire shield community moved to Minmatar space where the armor community was struggling to get the Sansha influence there out of the high 80s.

For the moment, this seems to be how things are going to go.  It's not going to matter for a while how many high-sec incursions there are at any given time.  Whether it's one or three, for the time being, all of the incursion runners are going to stick with one and ignore the others.  They don't have much other choice.  The caravan of the heavens is still out there, but now there's only one.

You might ask how much I made over my two days of incursion running, and it's a totally fair question.  The answer is 438 million ISK, minus the cost of my ammunition, which ran about 25 million, plus a few lost T2 drones and some repairs and paste for my Logi ship.  So just over 400 million in two days... over 14 hours of incursion running.  Put another way, I made about 28 million ISK/hour that I put into it.  And people wonder why players are giving this income method up.


(1) I finally got around to buying myself a Black Ops battleship this week.  Redeemer, if you're curious.

74 comments:

  1. I would like to point out that you've failed to include your LP points from those 14 hours. As I remember it, HQ sites give out more LP than isk.

    Also there is no requirement for people to use faction ammo in Incursions. It was previously used to reduce the time it took to complete a vanguard site from say 10min down to 8 or 9min (not real numbers, but my point is it provided a material benefit of 10-20%). However, because of how long it now takes to complete a site, the benefits from Faction ammo are no longer material.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I didn't, and rightly so, because LP are an ISK sink, not a faucet.

      Delete
    2. They are an isk sink at an aggregate game level, but are an income source for an individual player/group of players, hence they are an incentive to run Incursions. Your post is about income for incursion players and how income is now too low to incentivise many players to run incursions.

      Delete
    3. Should I remove gas and salvage from my income because it's not a isk faucet?

      The isk/hour in w-space would be low if I did.

      If we remove LP and salvage from Level 4 missions, that 28mil/hour/account is pretty good.

      Delete
  2. In a way, this is emergent play, which is good. I still think a built-in feedback system for the influence bar is the best alternative.

    It is no fun if it only takes half an hour after DT to bring it to zero. It is no fun if after an entire day the community could not bring it down 80%.

    The devs will be hard pressed to find a fixed server-side value for the sansha rise of influence that works well on any situation that arises.

    ReplyDelete
  3. So, you're arguing for it to go back to the way it was? (You don't really say, other than the tone.) When it WAS risk-free? No experienced incursion groups lost ships before the changes, and made ISK hand over fist.

    Maybe the Sansha Influence needs some slight tweaks ... but it sounds like you want it back to the way of old ... so you can afford more of those Redeemers with far less time and effort.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. The way it was? No. You've read my stuff for a while, so you should have a good idea how I feel about this. If you don't, go read this to remind yourself:

      http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/01/caravan-of-heavens.html

      I think some adjustments to the high-sec incursions were absolutely necessary. But in my opinion, these were the wrong ones and they were taken a bit too far.

      Delete
    2. Oh, and to be fair to myself, the moment I closed escrow on the Redeemer, it instantly became my 5th most expensive ship and my 3nd most expensive PvP ship (behind my triage carrier and my Machariel).

      In short, it was a major purchase that I've been planning for for many months. The incursion money was needed because the one I bought was a bit more expensive than I planned for due to some mods already on it.

      Delete
    3. I think this is a case of :CCP: being :CCP: again. The pendulum swings one way, then it swings the other, and the famous "One Tool for All Situations" mind-set. Need a wall knocked down? Sledgehammer. Need a nail driven in? Sledgehammer. Need to screw in a phillips-head screw? Sledgehammer!
      Apparently there's no way to translate "moderation" to Icelandic? :-/

      And this gives me a pretty :easymode: entry idea.

      Delete
  4. Yep, some adjustment back needs to happen, it seems.

    Mind, not to where it was before (where it was indeed low-risk high-ISK, overall).

    ReplyDelete
  5. From your account, it sounds like Incursions are now running like they were originally designed to run, ie. everyone gangs up together to fight off each Incursion. The time frame and difficulty to complete an Incursion sounds about right, too, if you go back and read the old dev posts.

    Contrary to deluded beliefs, they were never meant to be farmed for ISK.

    Two thumbs up for CCP - looks like they actually tweaked something right.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. If CCP didn't intend for this to be farmed a bit, then incursions would go into a withdrawing state the moment the mom is spawned. That'd start a 24-hour countdown and the farming would end at the end of that countdown.

      You'll note that CCP did NOT do that. Therefore, these are NOT RIFT-style events and CCP didn't intend them to be.

      CCP clearly intended this to be an additional PvE feature that would draw more bears into a more social EVE experience. And that's a smart way to handle it. EVE players that are drawn into a social experience stay subscribed longer.

      Delete
    2. "Farmed a bit" sounds like "being a little bit pregnant".

      Yes, CCP intended Incursions to be a large-scale social PVE experience.

      No, CCP did not intend for the same few groups to run around high sec blitzing the Incursions, just to farm ISK, and limiting who can join the fleet to only those with the "right" ships and "right" fits.

      If successfully running Incursions now requires grabbing everyone in the area with a ship to help out, vet or noob, regardless of specific ship/fit, then it is working as intended.

      Delete
    3. Karbox DelacroixMay 20, 2012 at 8:16 AM

      You are just making that up. The fact is that if CCP had intended incursions to be that way, then they would have made them that way. They made them hard so that people had to have tanks to survive. They made them contestable so that the group that did the most DPS get the payout. Both of these facts require the right ships and the right fits. If Incursions were not meant to be farmed, then they would have the incursion withdraw much sooner after the Mothership spwans. They did not do this, so claiming that they did not want people to farm it is ridiculous.

      Delete
  6. Incursions were fun for me because they were a nice way to add more challenge to PVE but with a decent reward for assuming that risk. I fly logi and keeping people up on some of the waves was the busiest I've been, to include PVP.

    I'll be honest in that I can make a lot more ISK running missions, I blitzed and didn't salvage anyway, than I can on incursions in the current state.

    Why go through the hassle of incursions if the pay out is so small? They were fun, a great way to meet new people, and the payoff was worth the time setting it all up.

    Incursions were just about the only PVE in the game that required working with others. They were better than a lot of other games at bringing the community together and it added a whole new aspect to Eve which I truly enjoyed.

    All I can say is I think it's pretty sad the pvp/null community is so jealous they'd cut their nose of to spite their face. Incursion runners won't jump on the PVP bandwagon if incursions go away, they'll just leave. However given time incursion runners would have tried out PVP and might have even liked it enough to move to null.

    It's amazing to me how the PVP crowd bitches about anyone choosing to do something other than pvp to the extent they would rather have subs drop instead of making sure the game has plenty of content to attract and keep PVE players. Eventually PVE people will try other options, they just want to make sure they have something to go back to if the PVP goes bad.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You're post is full of contradictions.

      1. Obviously you don't truly care about working with others and bringing the community together if you need a substantial payout to do so.

      2. You suggest the Incursion community will just quit instead of moving elsewhere. While certainly true for some players where do you think Incursion runners came from in the first place? Did they just pop into existence when the Incursion Expansion was released? They will certainly move back to missions/null havens if they find Incursions unworthy of their time.

      3. It wasn't just the PVP crowd "bitching" about Incursion payouts; it was everyone BUT the Incursion runners. With that in mind if what Jester is reporting is true then the nerf was taken much too far.

      Delete
    2. 1. It's not my job to bring the community together, that's what CCP is around for. I'll be part of a community where I have fun, if the content is frustrating or I feel it's not worth my time then I'll do something else.

      2. Going back to missions after trying incursions is somewhat depressing. Incursions were a lot of fun, provided some challenge, and were a great way to pay for some PVP ships. Null havens were nerfed, hard, so I doubt many go back to them. More than likely the result is going to be people decide to try other games that provide a fun, community experience without all the penalties of Eve.

      3. The only complaining I personally saw was by people who think PVP is the only thing that should be done in Eve and they'd nerf every other option if they could. Most of the PVE crowd I participate in, the majority didn't run incursions, had no complaints at all about the way incursions worked.


      So I stick by my first statements. This looks like a classic case of the squeaky wheel getting the oil.

      Reducing income only reduces options and people that use high sec to generate income to PVP with are finding it harder and harder to generate enough ISK to go out and play. They ain't moving out to null to make more money either. They'll just go to other games where PVP is easier to find and no where near as difficult to fund.

      Delete
  7. At 30-40 mil an hour, helping dudes replace their ships a couple of times a week will knock that down even further. It's just not worth it anymore. At least the thinned herd of incursion runners has resulted in lower PLEX prices for everybody. Oh wait....

    ReplyDelete
  8. Tell me I'm not the only one who started laughing at the idea of incursion-runners panicking and losing all their ships to Incursionrats.

    I personally think this is awesome. Get some goddamn Fleets out there, rather than these specialized gangs that are set up by the math of the thing.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Just an observation: the last days I've had some business around Bagodan (Domain), which apparently was the location of the Second Amarr incursion, and while there were many people in the system, Sansha influence never seemed to waver from 100% in all the time I was there. Judging from comments in the Incursion channel, fleets just never got critical mass. Only late Friday more experienced Incursion runners showed up in the Incursion channel and spoke of the arrival of a shield fleet "soon", now that that fleet was done clearing out the Other incursion.

    I don't know what to make of that - use your own judgement.

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    Replies
    1. Don't make anything of it. "Soon" will be when the Minmatar one is closed out.

      Delete
  10. This is good. EVE needs less risk averse douchebags.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Influence needs to drop much slower per site (in high sec) , but regenerate slower. That way it takes even more grinding to get to zero but any progress remains instead of it going back to the 100% mark.

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  12. I've tried incursions sporadically since it was introduced. Generally speaking the isk/hour was never worth it for me over a L4 Mach, or worst case, a Tengu (I still don't see why it's so highly rated, the dps is about half that of a decently skilled/fitted Mach). Incursion vanguards have about the same death-by/thousand-paper cuts feel that L4s do, except they're on comms listening to hurf bluff from other people I don't care about. This is from a Logi perspective mind you, I'll be damned if I'm going to put a multibillion isk ship at the mercy of Incursion General pubs from BTL, etc.

    I can't begin to comprehend why people run incursions for isk when there's other options available that payout more isk/hour (this is the metric we're cocerned with, right?). I ran a few HQ sites just to say I've done it. The added non-isk value of fleeting up with a bunch of people to get bored out of my mind doesn't add anything for me.

    I realize I'm borderline ranting at this point. A community built around a death by hours and paper cuts just astounds me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Another moron who thinks Incursions are only about farming ISK....

      Delete
    2. If they weren't why the mass exodous when the isk/hr dropped? 30m/hr is still respectable income.

      Delete
    3. Try and comprehend the that people may run them because it is a social activity that you can jump in for an hour or two per week(end). Lots of players that like EVE don't have more time than that.

      Hence, no time to join other social activities as WH space cause the lack of commitment they can bring..would you have some dude that only logs in once a weekend or a few hours per week (and then irregular at that?). Other social activity as group PvP might not be their thing.. L4s are just plain boring and can be done solo.

      Delete
  13. Incursions are Sansha attacks on the Empire. They are MEANT to be a serious threat requesting the combined Empire forces. All incursion runners working on one site is just common sense. The pure fact that before the nerf they could run more than one proved that it was too easy.

    Secondly, forcing the people to unite is great to allow new players in. If the site is easy, FC would say "What?! A not fully faction fitted Nightmare? With you we could kill 1% faster and you would take 2% loot. Piss off n00b!" If the site is hard, if the loss of ships is present, then every non-retarded player will be accepted.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually with the nerfs it has made it even harder for new players to get into fleets as more and more vg fleets that still run won't even consider t1 bses anymore since the difference in completion times between them went from 1 minute prenerf to 3+ minutes post nerf.

      Delete
    2. Karbox DelacroixMay 20, 2012 at 8:39 AM

      "The pure fact that before the nerf they could run more than one proved that it was too easy."

      Meh. If we are going to think "inside the game" then one could equally argue that since CONCORD, with its universe famous insta-popping guns failed to show up and drive out Sansha, then the threat wasn't that serious, therefore given that there were multiple Incursions, multiple fronts, it made sense to have different fleets focus on different theaters of war.

      Delete
    3. If incursions were meant to have all incursion runners at one site, then there wouldn't be 1-3 simultaneous HS incursions (plus the low + null ones).

      The fact that they are more tedious and frankly, more dangerous, makes it even harder for a new player to participate. It takes an excellent FC, trusted logi pilots and well fit DPS ships to make the whole endeavor worth anyones time. There is no role for new players in this new version of the sansha invasion.

      Pre-nerf, most complaining about incursions were directed at top vanguard fleets pounding out 140+mil/hr for months and months with ease. The changes CCP made have not only crushed vanguards but have affected assault and HQ sites, that arguably were not imbalanced (or not nearly so).

      Incursions take a lot more effort and coordination than mission running, I think it is reasonable that they pay more. The communities they have created are good for the health of New Eden, and provided many players with new content to enjoy. The issue was imbalance of risk/reward. Now running incursions is tedious, pays poorly, and puts people at risk of losing expensive ships for a poor reward. As people lose the will to try and keep their incursion running communities alive, all the work CCP put into this new, social aspect of PVE will go unused and unappreciated. It would be like removing WH's and pretending apocrypha never happened, or making PI so expensive and tedious that Tyrannis never happened.

      I hope they revise the nerf and take a more balanced approach so people are still motivated to run the incursions.

      Delete
    4. With the risk of losing ships when some are poorly fitted, there is even more motivation for FCs to be picky about who they accept.

      If Staging systems would require a 5-strong fleet of T2-fitted battlecruisers and logistics ships to complete, we would have a starting point for teaching people how to fit their ships properly. As it stands, Staging encounters are merely interesting blips on the radar for solo T3 cruisers.

      Delete
  14. This blog is perfect Jester, it is like the precise Bizzaro version of my opinion of these changes.

    Everything you describe as 'awful' sounds fantastic! Anything you think might be 'good' sounds horrible.

    ReplyDelete
  15. 28M/h now, I'm sure once the communities learn how to combine their efforts effectively it'll be back to 50M/h(ish). That's about right for high-sec IMO.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Incursions should never of paid out anything other than lp and bpc drops to begin with.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I only say people should take a ride in a couple of Incursions themselves before saying they are now the way they were originally designed to be.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. I've been through more than a couple and, yes, they were (a) too easy, and (b) all run by the same douche bag FCs, who did not want to let anyone join fleet, unless they were flying specific ships/fits.

      Needless to say, noobs were *never* invited, because they could not contribute enough DPS (and, ofc, they can't fly logis) to make it worth splitting the rewards with them.

      As for risk, there wasn't any. The fleet would not engage until we had at least the minimum number of ships guaranteed to kill it, without suffering losses.

      By far the easiest ISK I've made in the game thus far.

      Like Jester said - need some ISK, join an Incursion or two, and a few hours later, go buy a shiny new black ops BS. Not too shabby.

      Delete
    2. HQ's and AS's, ran them all the time with too few because couldn't get the numbers. Just stacked heavy on logi and slogged through hoping to flesh out the fleet later. They also allowed under powered ships in because any dps is better than no dps.

      The problem was always VGs. Shiny ship fleets that blitzed the crap out of them and pulled in heavy bank. Under powered ships couldn't get in on it because the shiny fleets would follow low end fleets around and out dps them in the site keeping them from making any money. Which pushed the low end ships into AS and HQ sites. So the issue was that Incursions were reversed in payout. The low end VGs payed out more than HQ's and AS's combined for a similar investment in time.

      What everyone who ran incursions regularly figured would happen with the nerf, because it only made sense, is that the difficulty would be slightly tweaked to reflect modern practices with them, VGs would have their payout adjusted downward, and possibly ASs and HQs would have it slightly tweaked upwards.

      Instead what happened is the difficulty was made staggeringly harder, but payouts stayed the same. So VGs which even the people who ran them thought were too good of payout are still the top earner. And the shiny ship fleets from VGs did not do well in HQs and ASs. I was in a few when the nerf was first announced before the particulars were published. I saw multi billion isk ship after ship burn because they were not ready for the broadcast and targeting calling discipline required by them. And their time to completion on each site was about the same.

      Also, I'm really glad you think 14 hours is only a "few" hours. Back when I lived in Null on a heavy day of Sanctums I did a billion a day in that similar 14 hour time span. Hell, Jester's posted proof of anom running Titans in Null that pay for themselves in a month, yet still people keep pointing at incursions and saying "Nerf it, it's too much isk!". Incursions were never that much isk save for VGs.

      But hey, instead of fixing that problem lets nerf the entire system to oblivion.

      Delete
    3. "... lets nerf the entire system to oblivion."

      I'd agree with this. There are too many ISK faucets in the game. Losing a 1B ISK ship doesn't mean much, when you can replace it within 1-2 days.

      Delete
    4. Anon1250 and Anon1230: did you actually read my post, or did you just jump to the comments? Never mind. What you wrote makes it clear which one you did.

      Delete
  18. as a whiney little carebear, I never cease to be amazed at the the nerf hammer od CCP, and the joy that nullsec folk seem to express when it hits carebears...the interesting thing is I'm wondering what is happening to the nullbears that where either flying hisec incursions as themselves (or using an alt) to support their life of PVP and such in nullsec.
    And before you bolt me to the flame cross ask how true this is. I'm aware of one null corp that used hisec incursions (abet a 90% corp tax rate) to buy 5 titans.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Wow jester it seems like all of the anti incursion trolls left the bridge to come visit you over a nice cup of tea today....


    Nice blog. Tdf & btl had a discussion on comms (which was recorded and sent to ccp) to which to reply was given so don't get your hopes up. I've already unsubbed two of my accounts because I can't afford it anymore. Hope you find a new isk niche like me :)

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    1. Carmelos is right. I used to run incursions in TDF fleets and on a good day in a non-shiny ship I could make 100 mil an hour. But there were bad days where I made nowhere near that, and overall I averaged maybe 1 bil a week profit. Since the nerf I have found an income replacement activity that makes me about 100 mil an hour, in highsec, with even less risk than incursions.

      BUT... it's a completely solo activity and it's boring as hell. Not unsubbed yet but I'm thinking about it. Call me spoiled, but I won't even log on and play if I can't earn 100 mil an hour.

      For all the "PVP everywhere and always 100% of the time" crowd, if it comes down to forcing everyone to play that game, 100,000 people playing 3 accounts each (for a rough average of 3-350,000 accounts) will nosedive. Look at the fracking numbers and how many people live in highsec. Nothing anyone does or says will cconvert the vast majority of eve players to sign up for the hardcore PVP paradise that so many of the vociferous minority demand. They'll simply go elsewhere. If the game is not fun, people will not play. And PVP purists will never be able to dictate what constitutes "fun" for the other 75% of the player base.

      Delete
  20. CCP will start to have a problem when it is more fun to work overtime for extra money to buy PLEX than run PvE in Eve-O.

    Also, there is no part of high-sec that is not risk free. The risk comes from players. I cannot think of real risk in EVE that does not come from players.

    Losses against rats is pretty much always bad luck or stupidity.

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    Replies
    1. The moment I'm required to pay money for PLEX to afford to be able to PvP will be the moment I permanently unsub from EVE and sell all my characters on eBay.

      Delete
  21. Tech, ABC's, High-End Complexes, Ratting, Truesec, Capital Production, etc. with protection in the form of Blob?

    Sounds a lot like highsec owait....this isnt a discussion of PvPers hating Carebears. Its Rich carebears bitching about poorer carebears having any comparable means of income (if you want to call even old incursions comparable to anything above....like tech).

    ReplyDelete
  22. So reading through the comments and I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of people want incursions to be made as worthless as CCP's only other stab at group PVE, lvl 5 missions.

    Thanks guys. Always nice to have something that re-enforces the idea that the Eve playerbase is it's own worst enemy. Down with a vibrant fully fleshed out game.

    ReplyDelete
  23. It slowly dawns on me that perhaps EVE isn't for me. Im tired of other people I've never met, never played with and probably never will telling me how Im supposed to play my game. Im tired of all the hate and bile that bubbles and wells between players. Im tired of the paranoia that runs so deep. Im tired of people who think its ok to be jerks because its only a game. Im tired of being promised a better game that never seems to come. Im tired of goons and the hate they breed and love.

    Perhaps Im wearing rose coloured glasses but it doesn't seem like that long ago that it was still fun, now its just a grind. I want to play EVE but every time I go to I find myself playing Tribes, Tanks or Diablo instead.

    Im putting my accounts on life support, perhaps I'll come around soon or something good will change. One things for sure though, Id rather quit than go back to L4's.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you feel like the game is a grind, stop grinding. That's what I like about eve. My 'level' doesn't depend on how much I grind. If I feel like grinding, I grind, if I don't (most of the time) I fly around aimlessly wasting time.

      Delete
    2. So for what it's worth, the incursion in Minmatar space is current at 0% Sansha influence. Someone is making it work out OK.

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    3. Its not that it feels like its a grind as in highly repetitive, far from it, I just have no motivation to play. I no longer garner enjoyment from the game. I feel like I have anyone to "play" with. Just 39ish other people together in the same fleet, little talking, little laughing, just...

      So... yeah.

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    4. Khalia. Its because people petitioned GM's to lower it dumbass

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    5. @Kel: It's not the game,it's the forums. If I had read what I read now on the forums when I started on '06 I would have quit the game. Thankfully, I got two blissful years under my belt before I got exposed to the hateful and whiny mindset typified by the average GD poster.

      Even now (10 accounts later) I feel that just knowing what the vocal minority thinks and how they influence the game will be what eventually makes me leave the game.

      If I want stupidity and hate I can just read the news

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    6. Khalia: yeah, it was petitioned lower. A couple of hours before it was at 0%, it was at 100%. The GMs are pretty clearly on the player's side on this.

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    7. Oh, that's cool. At least CCP isn't ignoring the issue.

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    8. No, that's NOT cool and I am a former incursion runner who thinks the nerf went too far. Watch what they DO, not what they SAY. Remember that? CCP taking action because of whiners is not good. Just as it wasn't good when anti-incursion trolls squeaked enough and got their grease.

      It would have been better for this group of incursion runners to STOP RUNNING THE DAMN THING rather than whine about the sansha influence. In the long run it would have had a bigger impact on CCPs eventual response. The way this went down is deeply troubling on many levels.

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  24. @Kel Hound: Sounds like you"d enjoy some very passive isk income, leaving you to do, well, pretty much whatever you want.

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  25. So, what did all these people who are threatening to unsub do before incursions? Grind in some other fashion, see an isk waterfall, think "hey, I can pay for all my subs now!", start doing so with no contingency plan for anything that seems to good to be true?

    If the value that one derives from running incursions is not primarily for isk...what's the problem? Presumably one who had already accepted the isk/hour value they could achieve from incursions vs other activities (if higher) and determined the non-isk value added from incursion running (social experience, etc), should still be interested and continue run incursions with the reduction in isk/hour value and increased "challenge".

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  26. Wait a second. You earned one month worth of gametime (=1 Plex) by just playing for 2 days. Jeez. Yes. Incursions are broken.

    Wtf get real guys, ISK aren't free and incursions were broken BEFORE the nerf, not afterward.

    Now you complain you need to actually WORK to get incursions profitable? Well - welcome - nothing is for free.

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    Replies
    1. As people occasionally like to remind me, had I spent those 14 hours working at McDonald's, I would have made enough money to buy three PLEXes and lunch for both days.

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    2. Karbox DelacroixMay 21, 2012 at 4:35 AM

      Meh. You could buy a plex after mining ABC ores for two days. Clearly mining is broken.

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    3. In wh life, with the right set of sites. I could've made that isk in half the time. If you know what you're doing in a wh it's nearly risk free.

      Does that mean wh life should be nerfed? Nah bro, isk/hour ratio doesn't really matter much. What matters that for a lot of people it'd fund their pvp fleets to go out and die more.

      Having isk to pvp with is essential, but no matter how much isk you have it's much less likely that you'll be able to beat the blob.

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    4. but would it be as fun? wai...

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    5. Meh. It's not that there aren't other -easy- ways to make isk in this game. You just have to think outside the box and mess around.

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  27. My biggest concern with the "new" incursions is that they are boring, at least the VG sites. NCO were a rush because you were trying to do them as fast as possible. OTA were a challenge as you tried to manage incoming damage. NMC were annoying. Now NCO are like NMC.

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  28. @Teut

    1 PLEX for 2 days play is terrible. One of my chars is only a few months old but can make from 100-300m in a couple hours (doing PvE not trading). Pretending that 500m for 14 hours play is good - laughable.

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    Replies
    1. Correct. I'm certainly not rushing out to do more incursions, that's for sure. The purpose to doing them Wed/Thurs was to see how the nerf was going and chat with the people trying to stick with it.

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  29. I was a casual Incursion Logi runner pre-nerf. I met my current corp that way. The CEO and Directors would take turns FC'ing the runs and NOOBS were always encouraged to participate with us for the experience. Even if we ran "oversized" or with non-standard ships, we had fun. The social aspect was strong and we kept a decent pace and gave new players some experience.

    I've also run in incursion fleets where new players were scorned and if your ship wasn't shiny enough, you were laughed at on comms. I've even bailed on a fleet where the FC was a real prick.

    Post nerf, it's no longer done. Keeping new players alive has been more of a challenge and now it feels more of a grind than running missions. Regretfully, we no longer run them as a group.

    I certainly could have milked the Incursion teat much more than I did, I preferred using it as a casual source of income and socializing. Post-nerf incursions have no draw for me whatsoever.

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  30. Logistics don't panic without reason in an incursion. It's of course when they see the situation turn into something unsustainable. That could be due to a break in the cap chain, a bad tank fit, or a poor FC call. Next to FC'n it's easily the most stressful role in incursions. Based on what you've written though, it sounds like no incursion shield fleet should run without max seige boosting.

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  31. Making them hard enough to kill sounds like a great first step. Personally I have no problems with lethal PVE aspects of this game. I think PVE in EVE can be made more lethal and everyone wins.

    As long as you make it worth while.

    Part of the problem faced by this game and really all MMOs in my opinion is that players are very resourceful. Give them time and they will figure out a way to skin any cat no matter how big or how tough the cat might be.

    The way I see it is that there are only really 2 ways to 'solve' this problem. More variation in the types of threats encountered in Incursions and a sliding scale of lethality and payoff on top of that. Make it harder for the Incursion fleets to skin the Incursion 'cat' but make it more rewarding.

    Furthermore, areas effected by Incursions should be like LS. **No Concord** under the assumption that the freaking INVASION has driven off Concord and severely weakened the Factional authorities. Concording folks in Incursion effected areas is like arresting pickpockets in Bastogne during the Battle of the Buldge. Shouldn't Concord and the FP have better things to do?

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    Replies
    1. Take the "safety" of Concord out of the picture and you'd never have any incursion fleets. The pirates would just pile in for the shinies and be done with it. Look how many LS incursions get completed compared to HS.

      I agree with your other points though, PVE in Eve needs better design to make increased risk have increased reward. Lvl 5's in high sec would be a good start. I'd also like to see some missions with variable difficulties that you can select. Sorta like Blockade but you can tell the corp you'll take on the BS blockaded instead of the BC.

      PVE in Eve needs help and considering how many people live in high sec and participate in missions it would only make sense that the better the PVE the more subscribers Eve could have.

      Delete
  32. Once again a complaint about making ISK without a link to the Making ISK guide on Evelopedia :P

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  33. Gotta like the latest Incursion nerf: in Orshed there are no sites & GM's are telling us they can't do anything for 12 hours (until after downtime)

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