Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Friday, May 11, 2012

Victory conditions

This is one of those posts I write from time to time that means nothing at all.  Really.  This post doesn't mean anything.  It certainly has nothing to do with EVE Online.

In the game Civilization, starting from Civilization IV, there are five recognized standard victory conditions.(1)

Conquest: this is where your civ pretty much conquers the other players or NPCs on the map.  You know you're heading toward a Conquest victory when you can smite another player without breaking a sweat too much, such as when your tanks roll toward enemy cities guarded by musketmen.  In EVE, this is like when you notice that Tenal has been conquered and you don't remember when the invasion of Tenal started.

Cultural: this is where your civ's culture becomes so pervasive that it's impossible to tell what the other civ's cultures were.  You know you're heading toward a Cultural victory when you are producing more Great Artists than you have major cities, and when you keep discovering your civ has picked up new (rebelling) cities that you don't remember having a couple of turns ago.  In EVE, this is where you notice that pretty much every alliance is becoming misogynistic, casually uses and accepts homophobic slurs without thinking about it, or says "qq more, noob, lol" when you point out this or that change to the game is having unintended side effects.

Diplomatic: this is a new one starting with Civ4, and is where your civ can get even your enemies to go along with your plans.  You know you're heading toward a Diplomatic victory when your civ builds the United Nations wonder and you think you've got a good shot at getting your leader elected as Secretary General.  In EVE, this is like when your alliance leader can sit down even with alliance leaders that he despises (and who despise him in turn) and yet can get them to price fix technetium or gank exhumers just to grief all those high-sec pubbies.

Domination: this is another relatively new one, and is usually gained through economic means.  You know you're heading toward a Domination victory when there are very few oceans that your transports can't go safely, you're producing more Great Spies than you know what to do with, and you've actually started building executives en masse.  In EVE, this is a bit like noticing that all of a sudden, Rapiers cost 225 million ISK and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, and nobody wants you to fly a Rapier anyway because the fleet just needs more Maelstroms and more Drakes.

Space Race: this victory happens when your civ produces a wonder of the world that is so impressive and far-reaching that the other civs are forced into surrender because there's no way to produce a more impressive wonder.  You know you're heading toward a Space Race victory when your economy is so strong and far-reaching that there are very few things in the game you can't afford to do.  In EVE, this is a bit like casually arranging an in-game event that's so all-encompassing that there are very few players that aren't impacted by it.  Such an event would be hard to top--

Hey, you.  In the back.  Stop thinking that.  I said this post had nothing to do with EVE.  Those were just examples.  Yeah.  Examples.

(1) And if you haven't played at least one of the Civ games since Civ4, stop reading this and go play one of them for a few hours, at least.  These games are so well done and so influential, there's hardly a video game out there right now that doesn't owe some fragment of its DNA to Civilization.  EVE owes whole chromosomes to Civ.


  1. Something absolutely unrelated to EVE:

    Civ5 sucks hard.

    1. i want some of whatever you're smoking.

      it's either really good, or really, -REALLY- bad.

    2. sorry Sjonnar, buy Klingon Admiral is right, The game is very unballenced, with the optimal stratagey to just pump out as many cities as possible!

  2. Comparing eve online with Civilization is not working. Simply because one has to end while the other has NOT to end ;).

    Things might get unfair in eve (some ships might be way overpriced or some modules) but this is a good thing from my point of view. This means the universe is player controlled. And where are humans involved, there are unbalances :).

  3. You lied, that footnote is related to eve >:|

  4. Best analogy related post I have seen in a while! But Civ II is still my favorite.

  5. Replies
    1. BoB won Eve too. That was very permanent.

  6. A Cultural Victory would be, say, pubbies calling pubbies pubbies, as an insult, uncomprehending of its meaning; the widespread use of ~tildes~, z0r chains, fofofos, 'what', :cripes: :psyduck: :commissar: :frogout: etc.

    EVE, like all MMOs, has been a misogynistic hellhole for years and that has nothing to do with Goonswarm.

    1. While true that there's been a thread of misogyny for years, it's wrong to say that it has nothing to do with Goonswarm. Goonswarm is the single most dominant player entity at the moment in terms of how people think about EVE, and as such they have power to set the tone.

      The tone they (and you) are choosing to set is ugly and unpleasant. Saying "but it's always been like this" is no excuse.

    2. "A Cultural Victory would be, say, pubbies calling pubbies pubbies, as an insult, uncomprehending of its meaning" So your saying you've only had a cultural victory over TEST then.

      But yes, most online games are misogynistic hellholes regardless of how's "wining" them.

    3. Ok, Gotta ask. What's your definition of a pubbie, in the most concrete and objective terms you can find? Seriously.

    4. well thats pretty simple isnt it? a pubbie is a player of a game who is not an SA member.

    5. Well that's funny, doesn't "pubbies calling pubbies pubbies" apply to 3/4 of CFC? And for that matter, half of GSF itself?

    6. "uncomprehending of its meaning"

      Might want to look up the word cripes there, Mittens. It's a perfectly common British slang word. Pratchett for example uses it a lot.

      As for "pubbies" I've been in several guilds that used it, dating back to before SA was a site. It just means people who aren't in our guild (presumably with an etymology of "members of the public"). I concede though that in Eve most people use it in a way influenced by Eve Goons.

  7. ...so the Goons have won Eve.

    Does that mean that they'll move on and play something else?

    If only....

    The most disturbing part of all of that, I think, is the cultural victory. That's the one that will REALLY drive other people away. With all their military victories and so forth, eventually other people would organize to stand up to them. But, when the entire game is filled with the racist, misogynistic, homophobic, childish comments, then people who aren't like that are going to realize that it's not the right place for them (to the cries of "good riddance, pubbie!" from the ugly remainder).

    1. ...so the Goons have won Eve.

      Does that mean that they'll move on and play something else?

      One... more... turn...

  8. The Civvie games are great! Also as much as the gewns are annoying you have to give the devil its due. The question is, is this just a happy gewn accident, or was this plan all along?

    Even better questions are. Those of us not gewns, how should we feel about all of this, and what should we do about it?

  9. Nice way of looking at it. End game is where you don't have to *play* to win?

  10. This is a really good post. I approve of it 100%.

  11. Let's be fair here, we use rapiers for cloaky black ops and topgoon hotdrop gangs.

  12. Goon culture is predicated on being funny. Sometimes what is funny is pushing peoples' buttons. There is no more inherent misogyny or homophobia in GoonSwarm or the CFC than in any other large nullsec alliance - I'd argue less, actually.

    We've grown up a bit now. Goonswarm 2006 was mostly 19-year-old straight guys - they're graduating college, having learned a lot. We've always had women with us, often in very high ranking positions [see the recent cultural revolution propaganda].

    Mittens was willing to run the risk of alienating his most valuable FC over misogyny. ("Stop fucking making sandwich jokes, DBRB." We have many openly gay members - yours truly included. A few years ago, when I think you were part of LAWN, things were probably worse. As people grow older and more mature they realize some shit isn't funny - or, if it is funny, that it isn't worth it. As an alliance, most of us have reached that point now. It is a shame that people aspire to be 2007-era goons, but that's less about homophobia and misogyny - rampant in EVE long before we played - and more about memes and terminology.

    Yeah, Mittens still says 'faggot' occasionally and that's embarrassing, but he also spends half his time at Reykjavik in gay bars, is practically a socialist, and reacts as viscerally as anyone would to baseless accusations of homophobia.

    As it stands it's difficult enough to police the largest alliance in the game, but much easier to make blanket accusations about the membership. Deadtear and our other forum mods would ban anyone would said "lol noob qq" or whatever. Judging Goons by their posting on EVE-O? We only go there to make people mad and post badly.

    Griefers? Sure. Jerks, even. Insensitive. Homophobes and misogynists? A lot of us paid our ten bucks to get away from those people. There are a few, like in every large group. But don't tar us with that brush, man. You're better than that.

    If you're interested in the actual cultural and political views of goons, you should check out the first page of D&D. We're basically all a bunch of queer ultraliberals: http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=46

    Anyways, things are better, regardless of the impossibility of trying to enforce uniform cultural tolerance on an 8000 man gang of griefers. It's not easy, but we're better than most EVE players out there. Goons aren't the dangerous cultural force in this game. Speaking as a gay dude (ugh I hate to do this), they're the most chill and accepting group I've been with in any online game.

    1. On the other hand, TFR and gunchart.jpg

    2. I read your post and the sum of your argument appears to be "Im not racist/homophob/sexist because I have black/gay/women friends".

      Sorry but that's a logical fallacy and I think you know it. Goons are hateful people to anyone not a goon and troll or not, racist, homophobic sexist slurs reflect poorly not just on goons but on EVE as a whole. The "its only a game" argument is also a logical fallacy, because while it might be just a game the words you say and the deeds you do are real, even if the environment you say and do them in is virtual.
      At the end of the day you are the "hat" that you wear and the world in which you wear that "hat" is largely not relevant. Deny it if it makes you feel better but as they say, character is what you are in the dark.

    3. Oh... Mittens reacts badly when accused of being a homophove, so that means he's not one. I see.

      I guess that means that all the people who say they aren't really racist aren't racist, either. Huh.

    4. 'The "its only a game" argument is also a logical fallacy, because while it might be just a game the words you say and the deeds you do are real'

      so every time i scam someone i'm madoff, when i kill someone's hulk, i'm a vandal, and when i pod them i'm a murderer? sure, i'll own that. i'm a monster and i'm going straight to hell. thank you for your (worthless, retarded) opinion.

      'game = real life because real people play it' is the biggest logical fallacy of all. get bent.

    5. I hear that counter-argument a lot when I say what I did and it hold no more weight with me now as it did the first time I heard it.

      Jester made a post a few months ago, in it he asked if given the opportunity, would you run someone on a bike off the road. Im quite sure that most of us would be appalled by the very thought. Yet at the same time Im also sure that there are a few who secretly would. Sociopath who genuinely feel no emotion for such acts.

      Does this mean I am accusing you of being such a person? No. However I am trying to point out that in an environment like EVE that not only tolerates but encourages such random acts of terror and violence is the perfect place for such a sociopath to hide.

      I am often amazed and sometimes concerned by the lengths people who chose the role of villain in EVE will go to in order to justify their villainy. A quick stroll around the EVE forums is all you will need to find posters claiming that "carebears" are not actually people, that miners are just sheep or cattle for the PVPer or "piwate" to hunt down and eat.

      Even you right now are trying to dismiss me as having a "worthless" and "retarded" opinion. Do you really believe that? Do all my words make as much sense as the ramblings of someone on the short bus? Is there really no value or worth to what I have to say?
      Or would it just make you feel better not to have to hear what I have to say.

      Does playing the villain in a video game make you a villain in reality? of-course not, that's not what Im trying to say here and such a statement would be ridiculous.
      Games and play are where we learn our values and morals, someone who cheats at soccer is quickly recognised as someone not worth playing with. We quickly learn how far we can push the rules as well. Someone who fakes or exaggerates an injury on the soccer feild might be considered a crafty player, but perhaps not a very honourable one.
      Likewise games like EVE let us explore our inner mind and give us anonymous faces to try out different "hats".

      The point I am trying to make is that if you routinely find yourself wearing the villains "hat" in a game like EVE where you chose and mould your own "hat" then that probably says something bad about the inner workings of your mind. Exactly what it says I don't know and will not guess at but it does say something.

  13. Replies
    1. No point nerfing goons, they are already terribad

  14. sooo....goons are just playing the "one more turn" aftereffect?

  15. Krixtal IcefluxorMay 11, 2012 at 5:17 PM

    Believe ME. The cultural victory has started.

    From my experience this morning, the Devs and CCP are utterly in their pocket.

    Too bad I can never undock again. But they care not about $750 a year from a player either. It's all about propagating their new Goon Paradigm.

    Now they just need to change the ads to get rid of the word Sandbox and they can avoid libel.

    1. What happened this morning?

      Also, remember that "sandbox" has a couple of meanings.

      (1) An enclosed area filled with sand where children may engage in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play.

      (2) A place for cats to urinate and defecate.

      It's pretty clear which kind of sandbox the Goons would like EVE to be....

    2. Soooo...Let's see how many people are in CFC right now. Goonswarm is 8903 members, TEST is 6989, FA 2747, RAZOR 2732, FCON 2074 and maybe 4-5 thousands more member in other smaller CFC alliances. Let's say that half of them are alts, then it's about 13 thousands accounts. That makes what, 5 million USD per year for CCP ?

      Ok, let's say it's just about main Goonswarm corp Goonwaffe. 3874 members. And if half of these are alts then it's about 350 thousands USD per year.

      Oh I see, your 750$ per year is more important because you're a beautiful human being as opposed to some ruthless neanderthals who just kicked your butt because you forgot that EVE Online is the game about consequences of your actions.

      PS: Right now more new goons are joining because of Burn Jita and everything else Goonswarm does and brags about on its forums. Your tears are not really significant but they may result in 1 or 2 more. And if Ministry of Love story hits the media then for everyone like you leaving there will be 2 goons, 3 CFC members and 10 others joining. Guess what CCP wants more, your money or theirs ?

    3. An enclosed area filled with sand for cats to urinate and defecate on children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play.

  16. Krixtal IcefluxorMay 11, 2012 at 5:21 PM

    BTW, this morning I had petitioned, not the Goon Dec against me or the loss of my tower or any of that replacable stuff. I opened a dialogue about WHAT CCP feels like doing.

    Since I may plan on returning after 5 or 6 months to see where things are at, I can't risk passing on what was told to me.

    But I can be comfortable saying that you guys would not like AT ALL what came out of the GMs and Devs about this.

    We are already in the End Game and we have lost. The ONLY thing CCP will indeed listen to at this point is cancelled subscriptions. If that.

    It's really bad folks.

    1. So goons wardecced you and popped a POS. That sucks, but it's not outside the realm of Eve. But I'm not sure I understand where the petition comes into this.

      Can you / will you elaborate on this?

    2. While I'm predisposed to be favorable to you (I don't like the way the Goons are taking the game, and I don't like the way they comport themselves), I have to admit that something that not only isn't substantiated, but that you can't tell us details about, is not something that I'm going to take too seriously.

      Even if you are telling the truth, you're more likely a troll. Apologies if you aren't, but try to step back and see what it looks like. If you want us to even look into it (and find out if it's as dire as you claim), you're going to have to say *what* the GMs and Devs said.

    3. You're a tool and everything you post is literally childish cries for attention. You mouthed off to someone bigger. They smacked you for it. Learn to live with it our get out. This isn't wow and no one is going to protect you. This game would be better without you because you simply do not GET eve.

    4. So let me get this right, you petitioned to talk about the direction of the game, heard TERRIBLE THINGS THAT ARE AWFUL and are still planning on coming back to "see where things are at" anyway?

      They must have said some truly *AWFUL* things if it made you say "I'm kind of sort of quitting but I'll probably come back later"!

      I mean, that's just downright silly, but I guess anything is better than trying to explain to people that play Eve Online why it's a bad thing that GM's/Devs couldn't give a toss that you and your possessions are not 100% safe anywhere in the game.

    5. Krixtal IcefluxorMay 12, 2012 at 4:42 AM

      Also, it's amazing how the 'anonymous' ones up above are the ones who absolutely know nothing. Nothing at all.

      Post with your mains.

    6. Krixtal IcefluxorMay 12, 2012 at 4:45 AM

      Final thought.

      In summary, CCP's solutions to me have all involved just getting in Lockstep with the Mittan's Program(me).


    7. That's very vague. Hard to get excited about how bad things are if that's all you're going to give us.

      "The Mittani's Program" is also something that means different things in nearly everybody's mind.

    8. That's why Krixtal's opinions are so worthless. He's doing whatever he can to try to be all EVE IS DYING THIS IS TERRIBLE when his only problem is that people can do things to him regardless of where he bases out of in-game, which is of course not only not a problem to most of the game, but a major draw of it.

  17. Nerf players, their all reaching power when they combine together is affecting other players.

    Oh wait this is mother fucking EVE.
    Cary on.

  18. First thing I ever read about Eve was pretty much this: "The Mittani says hi"

    That said, I feel reading about Eve is more entertaining than actually playing. I wonder if this will ever change?

    1. I don't think any game in existence could live up to how wonderful Eve sounds in its better stories.

    2. Maybe you are doing it wrong. I have more fun playing than reading.

    3. You are reading the wrong stories than ;-)

  19. Krixtal IcefluxorMay 12, 2012 at 4:40 AM

    Petitioned that now that I am on the Goons List, I pretty much have 5 toons that can never undock again. 2 years and 2 months down the toilet.

    Wardecs, swardecs, I've been through 'em, both good and bad (they never undock). That is not the issue.

    No offer from CCP of name changes, nothing. Whatever on that point.

    I withdrew from the Alliance to draw attention away, and that is exactly what happened. Within 2 hours Goonswarm had wardecced Bison - Ammatar Thunder individually.

    No other Corp from my now former alliance had been bothered or seen a goon at all since the entire thing started. They are focused on me and me only...personally.

    Although the EULA says no player shall grief another out of the game, that is indeed what has happened. It's in print (which is fine, nothing wrong there, yawn) and then executed(very wrong).

    CCP's ONLY 'solution' is to join a Corp that goes after the Goons exclusively and that I should be glad there is a sandbox that offers that particular 'opportunity'.

    I ask, why I should utterly alter my playstyle and what I do ingame, restructure literally everything, to satisfy a foul-mouthed e-peen sucking dweeb ?

    1. It sucks -- but the truth is that the Goons are out there, and you have to deal with it.

      That's why you shouldn't post as your main. Just as you'd fly a cloaky ship, use a scout, or use the cloak-plus-MWD trick to fly through lowsec, you have to view the forums as hostile territory where you need to be strategic. Yes, it's lame not to post as your main, but that's the world we've got.

      It'd be nice if CCP did "something" about it, but it's very difficult to imagine what they could do the side effects of which wouldn't be worse than what they were curing. I don't think they're trying to implement the Goon Agenda-- they're just trying to preserve the sandbox. When they get into interfering with what's going on in the sandbox in favor of one corporation or individual (you) over another (the Goons), then where does it end?

      It'd be nice if it were possible somehow for player corps to "protect" highsec, but the game mechanics don't allow for that. That'd be something I'd like to see the CSM look into. But looking to CCP for a solution-- well, that's just not the kind of game this is.

      So, in the mean time, no, none of my characters are named Ezr Vinh, and I'm not going to speak out against Goons on the forums in my main characters' names-- any more than I'm going to fly a Mammoth through lowsec.

    2. By that token, Krixtal, why should any Goon (or any ganker for that matter) utterly alter their playstyle and restructure literally everything jut to satisfy a whiny pissant that wants to change the game he plays to suit him directly?

    3. Krixtal IcefluxorMay 13, 2012 at 5:14 AM

      Again with the Goon anonymity above. Talk about viral. Anyway.

      I guess we shall see the reaction, when more people who fork over $800 a year stop doing so.

    4. I bet Jester just did this for the lulz. At the cost of making mittens more smug. Then again maybe he needs some more, his gaping knee wound must have cost a lot of smug.

      In other news, not sure if care enough to have an opinion.

      That said, goons are pretty good for eve in general and they are at their best when trying to destroy our game.

    5. the game is better off without you

  20. Only non-reply thing I have to add to this: Goons haven't won the Apocrypha expansion; as far as wormholes are concerned, they don't even play the game.

  21. I made a totally EVE-related post based off of this. http://kantlavar.blogspot.com/2012/05/flawless-victory-well.html

  22. Out of an 8000 man alliance, A handful of guys decided to show up and reinforce your POS. Then 19 came back 1 day and 17 hours later(max stront) to kill it.
    I believe you've only been ganked once, if that.
    I can only find record of one gank:

    As long as you fade away into the shadows, I'm sure you'll be left alone.

  23. Sir, perhaps a little off base, but There is a shift I see which one might ask how it fits into this "who's winnning" that I would like to hear your take on. I see now that there is a totally PVE carebear empire alliance, and also Eve University in the top ten biggest Alliances in the game. In my time paying attention to such things I've never seen such a shift of power and organization away from the 0.0 alliances. What could this mean for the game and the power blocks?


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