Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Thursday, June 14, 2012

Hunters and pray

The discussion in my post the other day about the upcoming war-dec changes has been quite interesting!  Needless to say, I'm being called all sorts of names.  But I wouldn't be me if that wasn't happening, so I'm OK with it.  Matter of fact, I have to admit that I threw a few lines and phrases into the blog with the intent of stirring the pot a little.  One doesn't refer to Jade Constantine as a "folk hero" unless one wishes to tweak The Mittani's nose.  ;-)

That said, I got accused by Goons all the way up to Mittens himself of lying when I said Goons had been whining about the Jade Constantine mutual "foreverwar".  That was a ridiculous enough accusation that I just contented myself to point right back at the very threads Jade had started on the EVE-O forums and on FHC as evidence.

At that point, the Goon narrative changed to "OK, well, we weren't whining.  We were pointing out that Jade was exploiting a badly-designed game mechanic."  I guess I hardly need to explain why Goons of all people complaining about someone exploiting badly-designed game mechanics is a weaponized level of irony that could flatten whole cities.  Then Goons adjusted their tack slightly to "Jade was exploiting a badly-designed game mechanic, and we were looking forward to it!"  And that's where the narrative seems to be right now.

Now keep in mind, what Jade did was new in only one way: he made The Star Fraction's war with the Goons mutual.  In that way, he invoked the badly thought-out mutual war and surrender mechanics on the aggressor side of the equation.  I certainly recognize that there were dozens of corps getting themselves involved in dozens of war-decs that they previously weren't involved in.  But to my knowledge, Jade chaining himself to the Goon war-dec was the new tactic here and that's what I wrote about.  That, in fact, was why I called the post "Total war": it invoked the 20th century change in warfare around refocusing your entire economy toward belligerence.

"Dog-piling" (as it's started to be called) into a non-mutual war still leaves the aggressor in the driver's seat: they can end the war any time they like without surrendering, or any time the number of allies on the defender's side becomes too much.  All the aggressor has to do is stop paying the bill, and the war ends on their terms.  However, a mutual war-dec takes the aggressor out of the driver's seat.  In a curious way, it puts the defender in the position of power in the war.  The aggressor can no longer end the war whenever they like.  I like that... but the in-game mechanics still need a lot of work.

Anyway, the drama is still sweeping back and forth from the EVE-O forums to Failheap to the blogs and back.  I thought it would be interesting to focus on the takes of four other bloggers that have written about this lately.

I'm not sure how to describe the "sides" on this debate, so I'll just say on one "side" of this is an almost rabid post by Poetic Stanziel.  Poetic, for reference, is not war-dec'ed by the Goons at this time.  Poetic starts by using a rather Goon-like expression to indicate that anyone who believes that the changes CCP is making are a response to the Goon/Jade situation is dumb.  That, I do in fact agree with.(1)  The rest of the post is an interesting contradiction, though.  It first argues that anyone who draws a war-dec on themselves deserves the consequences of that, essentially arguing that unfairness is a building block of EVE.(2)

But then the post seems to argue that the ally system should be fair to professional EVE merc corps as well.  For them, I have to honestly say that I don't have a lot of pity.  As I've said on this blog before, if someone competes with you, beat them by being better... not by complaining you're being competed with.  Too many corps jumping into as defenders in war-decs?  Get hired by proving to be better than they are and by proving you have a track record of success during war-decs.  This ain't the first time CCP has thrown a giant monkey wrench into this or that corp's means of making ISK.  Hell, it isn't even the first time they've done it this year.

On the other "side" of the fence is an almost equally rabid post by Mord Fiddle over at Fiddler's Edge.  For reference, Mord is not war-dec'ed by the Goons at this time.  Mord's take lately is that Mittens is still smarting over being removed from the CSM and is lashing out at anyone that he perceives as a personal enemy.  I find it hard to argue with that, either.  But Mord does slip too far over into the conspiracy side of things.  Still this post and a post he wrote a few days ago about Mittens himself are well worth your time.

In the middle is this well-written post by Mabrick of Mabrick's Mumblings.(3)  For reference, Mabrick is war-dec'ed by the Goons at this time.  Mabrick does a really terrific job -- probably better than the job that I did -- of laying down the major benefit to the ally system.  It makes declaring war on someone an inherently risky act with consequences.  One of the perceived down-sides of the war-dec system that I referenced above is the perception that the aggressor has all of the power in the relationship.  In-war allies were intended to put at least some power in the hands of the defender.

Happily, the numbers for bringing in war allies are now out.  I was a little bit concerned to learn that bringing in additional allies will increase the cost on an exponential scale.  Being an aggressor multiple times only increases cost on a geometric scale, after all.  But the first ally is still free and the second, third, and fourth only cost 10,  20, and 40 million, respectively.  These are quite reasonable costs -- they could even be increased a bit in my view -- so I'm feeling better about the changes myself.  And Mabrick makes a good argument in his post for supporting the changes as well.

Finally, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the take of Yuki 0nna at The White Rose Conventicle.  For reference, White Rose was war-dec'ed by the Goons.  I say "was" because Yuki 0nna has shut down WRC and has left EVE entirely.  So now nobody gets to read Yuki's take on it.  But I think Yuki's take on it is clear enough despite that.  Now granted, I wasn't Yuki's biggest fan... but WRC didn't deserve that.

Let's hope that nobody involved kills themselves, shall we?

EDIT (15/Jun/2012): The original version of this piece reported that Mord Fiddle's corp had been war-dec'ed by Goonswarm.  This was incorrect, and I regret the error.

(1) For the record, the Rolodex jab I made in my own post was, again, intended to tweak the collective Goon nose a little.
(2) I'll have more to say about this on Monday.
(3) It finally convinced me to pull the trigger and add him to my Must Read Blogs list.  You'll find him over there on the right.


  1. Well played, sir! Well played, indeed.

  2. On the last bit, I am not sure I can muster as much sympathy as you for the demise of WRC. Attempting to take a pacifist line in-game was interesting, it just did not align very well with their behavior in the meta game sphere of things.

    At best, an ongoing editorial line of "Goons are literally Nazis" wasn't the best plan for a group that otherwise wanted to avoid conflict.

  3. In my humblest of opinions, THIS is the situation that is going to make or break EVE. The number of folks fleeing the game at this point is astonishing.

    Pretending like he cares for the well-being of mercenaries is quite the sideshow for the Mittani. What a convenient way to bring it up to CCP and claim the whole thing has nothing to do with his idiotic tactics.

    On Forum someone called him the mercenaries' "Angel ex machina". Shoulda been Wizard ex machina, rather.

    To end, your last sentence is a true gem.

    1. I agree that this situation has a lot to say about the future of EVE. Expect a long post about that on Monday.

  4. Sure, the geometric price for allies is reasonable, as is the hiring of mercs to fight for you against a larger, older corp of griefers - but only if you have a fat wallet.

    Some of us, who just started playing, aren't so well-heeled with ISK. We cannot afford to hire an experienced merc corp, and cannot afford to pay off the aggressor to leave us alone. We tried both approaches, with no success - they all wanted more ISK than we make in game.

    Our only defense was asking about a half-dozen other small corps in the area to join us as allies, to bolster our numbers and help force the aggressor to eventually go away. Now, we won't be able to afford to do that either.

    And GMs don't consider this to be grief play, although it forces us to quit playing until the aggressor gets bored and goes to pick on someone else.

    The only "real" answer we got from a GM was to buy PLEX from CCP and sell them in game for ISK, so that we can afford to buy allies and hire mercs.

    WTF? And you guys really wonder why new subscriber numbers are not going up?

    1. CCP has made it clear with this ruling that EVE is not a game that a new player can just start a corp in any more. If you're a new player, you better go out and join an established, experienced corp, not start one of your own.

    2. CCP has taken a definite stance here against the small Guy and better be prepared to be reaped for what they sowed.

    3. "If you're a new player, you better go out and join an established, experienced corp, not start one of your own."

      That's not necessarily a bad thing though. In fact, I'd argue it to be a good thing. The probability of a new player staying in the longer term (multiple years) increase significantly if he/she is swiftly initiated into an existing group of people and shown the ropes. A newbie from Reddit joining TEST is going to have a very different NPE than one that just picked up the game and has no idea what to do with him/herself; the former is going to contribute instantly to a community, whereas the latter might quickly end up quitting after getting his 1 man corp annihilated.
      I'm in the latter group, but I never got to the point of quitting because I discovered the community through podcasts. I dipped my toe into all the waters that I heard about and decided what I'd like to do, then I went and found an established group- and it was fun! Then, when things started going slow, I found another group doing something else while retaining my past social connections and experience.

      New players are an awesome resource to be harnessed by established entities; they'll run their own show whenever they get the experience, contacts, funds, and desire to do so. Give them a goal and resources and they will strike down the heavens.

      The entities that accept new players into their ranks prove time and time again that they can stand above the rest, if nothing but because raw brute :numbers:. Every ship counts, efficiency and spies be damned. A fleet of a couple hundred assorted tech 1 frigates can go a lot more damage than people think, and with a good FC at the helm (who was once a new player too) even the lowliest new player can contribute.

      Creating and maintaining a corporation is a huge task with consequences that most new players just can't handle.

      EVE is about the bigger picture; you are but one pilot in a universe of many. That is why it is un-sharded; that is why it is sandbox; and that is why you should be joining existing communities (entities) rather than creating the 10,000th 1-man corp.

    4. In other words, you want to wall off huge sections of the sandbox that involve small groups, and drive everyone into cultural uniformity. Then they can goose step along in a game that has ever dwindling individualism and diversity.

      That's obviously where the game is heading, through a combination of game design and human nature. Count me out though. I have even less inclination to join an in game political party, than I do a RL one.

    5. Well, thanks for the honest replies.

      None of us are really interested in being a non-entity in someone else's 1000+ member corp. We get enough of that in our real-life jobs. This just has no appeal for a bunch of gamers who were attracted to Eve by the promise of being able to build something fun on our own.

      If this is truly the direction in which Eve Online is going, then it isn't really much of a "sandbox" universe, is it?

      I guess we'll all be signing off as soon as our current subscriptions run out. Our 22 subscriptions may not mean much to CCP, but I suspect we will not be the last group to leave.

      Good luck and thanks for the good reads, Jester.

    6. Sorry to hear it. :-/ I'll do the obligatory "Can I have your stuff?", though. ;-)

      I hated to put it in such stark terms, but EVE has never been particularly newbie-friendly, whether "newbie" is new player, new corp, new alliance, or new tactic. In particular, though, EVE players absolutely delight in torment players who are "worse" at the game than they are.

    7. Guys, why do you think you need to go into a 1000+ member corp, there are plenty of small flexible corps you could join, hell...

      if you really want to keep your corp up then those corps you banded together with, make yourself an alliance.

      Little guys can still do stuff, you just have to fight smart and be social. Having established ISK is a huge benefit, starting up on your own is difficult to impossible.... This is no different from real life, you need charisma and social interaction and a bank loan, get yourself a benefactor, treat your corp like a business and it will succeed... But if all you want is a way to escape NPC corp tax shelter, well that's not what its for!

      Starting and Running a corp should be tough, if it was easy it wouldn't be EVE.

      If you are wardeced, be smart, fight smart... Move, deny them the fun engagements, make them a tedium.... Log in at a different time, move location, base in a different constellation and don't log off their, change your local view so you can see targets in local and on overview, have local seperated.... Adapt, Survive, Engage, Exploit, Socialise and band together, smile when you lure them into a trap and slaughter them.

      I've been in alliances that have been under constant declaration do you think that stops us going through hisec?

      I also have an alt corp without an alliance, I've been wardec'd twice in my memory, both times they got nothing... they went away in 1-2 weeks, I still operated, I just moved regions for a few weeks, and when they did hunt me down I hopped in my cov ops, used an insta undock and moved again. Don't make yourself a target, don't give them fun, they won't last long!

      Bend the game to your will, but you can't change the rules, just like you can't change the rules in poker, you can only get better at it, if you don't want to play the game as it comes, but yeah if you want to change it to what suits you, then as Jester says, Can I has your stuff please?

    8. What? Why should you not be able to start your own corp as a new member?
      I did exactly that 1 years and 2 months ago. And our corp of 3 people did very well for a whole year.
      Have we been wardecced? Sure! That was so much fun (even if we died horribly) that afterwards we started wardeccing too. And Ninjalooting and all the fun stuff.
      Then we moved to 0.0 where we also operated for some time as a 3 amn corp.
      Ok we joined a bigger corp / alliance now, but still, our own corp was a success. If we had deciced to join Faction War or do some pirating in lowsec it would still be existant. Only in 0.0 it is not a viable option to start your own small startup corp.

    9. I just want to make sure you are clear, joining an Alliance doesn't dissolve your corp. You can have a small corp in a big alliance, and so long as you find one that works for what you want to do, it gives you more options.

    10. Why do people think that 'an established corp' means a 1000 man corp (btw, there are very few of those). I can say that I interact with most of the active people in my corp/alliance on a (nearly) daily basis. It's pretty easy to get into the 'leadership' and become well known, all you have to do is get on TS3, and offer something to the corp.

      Maybe I have a skewed view of what it's like to live in highsec. I was either in an npc corp (for like 2 weeks) or in e-uni. I thought we had to deal with a lot of wardecs, but you could always leave the corp.

      Are wardecs in highsec really that much of a problem for the average person?

    11. @Jester; "Can I have your stuff?"

      Sure, why not? If I leave, I will not be coming back. There are too many other games to try. And there is no way to cash out of Eve, right?

      BTW, the rest of the corp feels pretty much the same way. Our subscriptions run out in just over a month, so, we'll arrange to send what's left to your Ripard Teg character.

    12. Jester you could have my stuffZ but unfortunely with the new UI I can't find it :P

  5. "..argues that anyone who draws a war-dec on themselves deserves the consequences of that, essentially arguing that unfairness is a building block of EVE."

    Well his argument seems to be that it is fair to expect in-game repercussions to your meta-gaming but it is not fair to then use your meta-gaming to deal with them.

  6. I think this latest Tempest in a Teacup is showing that Eve's rage level beginning to build steam and CCP's next faux paus is liable to be the straw that breaks the Camels' Back and break out into a riot. Appropriate since the anniversery of the Jita riots is upcomming.

  7. I'm a member of Goonswarm. Last night out of sheer boredom I took a Thorax all the way from VFK to Jita 4-4 undock and sat there for 45mins waiting to suicide into somebody. There weren't even any orphans sitting out there. I finally docked up and went to bed an hour later than I had wanted to.

    So no, we don't have enough wartargets. Hopefully tonight I can die gloriously and get podded back home.

    1. Or maybe you could have gone through null and hunted there instead of 'gloriously' suicide ganking in hughsec.

  8. I looked through a couple of the referenced threads and found one post that could be construed as whining and second somewhat so.

    That is what you've got?

    Oh wait, I know they deleted them all...sure....

    Thanks, now I know to take you alot less seriously.

  9. Wouldn't it be easier to allow the original aggressor in a mutual war add his own allies into the war? As soon as the war becomes mutual, both parties should be allowed to add as many allies as they want and both parties can surrender, ending the war. Am I missing something?

    1. Uh... I like that idea, maybe on a one to one base, so for each alli after the first the defender brings, the aggressor can bring one to or something. Lets escalate that wars! :D
      But instead of looking Corp vs. Corp, member numbers should count. So the defender has always the chance of hiring mercs up to the number of the aggressor. If he overshoots, the aggressor can now hire mercs himself etc.

  10. Were you trying to invite a blog-banter just by throwing down with an inciting post?

  11. "I was a little bit concerned to learn that bringing in additional allies will increase the cost on an exponential scale. Being an aggressor multiple times only increases cost on a geometric scale, after all. "

    Exponential and geometric are basically the same thing, just on different domains. You meant to contrast geometric and arithmetic, or exponential and linear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth

    "That said, I got accused by Goons all the way up to Mittens himself of lying when I said Goons had been whining about the Jade Constantine mutual "foreverwar". That was a ridiculous enough accusation that I just contented myself to point right back at the very threads Jade had started on the EVE-O forums and on FHC as evidence."

    Back in the day, you would have responded to ridiculous accusations by pointing to specific facts and statements, not just linking a threadnaught and claiming the correct facts were within. Sad.

    1. You're right, back in the day I would have done point-by-point refutations of spergy crap. More recently, I decided I have better things to do.

    2. But you still have time to regurgitate tons of spergy crap coming from JC and his ilk? A fairly basic level of decency would imply that if you take the time to accuse people of lying and/or whining, then you automatically must have the time to supply actual specific quotes backing up that accusation.

      It's your life, man, but if you fight the goons by copying their tactics, seems like even if you win the battle, they won the war. Unless emulating them was your goal all along?

  12. "Hunters and pray" ? Or did you mean "prey"? Not always sure about your clever plays on words.

    The hullaballoo raised over WRC's supposedly Goon-inspired departure is hilarious. "Didn't deserve that" meaning what? To be war-decced by another corp in EVE? Suffering unfriendly Goon comments on his blog? Cry me a river. That's the game and the metagame. Engage in either and you'll get targeted eventually. Been there myself...both with a war dec from Goons back when I was leading Hellcats and learning to ignore their stupid comments on my blog while honoring the ones that tried to make an intelligent point or counterpoint (which they actually sometimes did).

    Yuki made his choice and for all we know what fueled it might have nothing whatsoever to do with Goons. Real life has this way of demanding its due and sometimes people just need a convenient reason to roll up the carpets and GTFO of EVE.

    Damn your blog, Jester. One of those guilty EVE pleasures I just can't give up.

    1. <3 Mynxee. Sorry to keep you dragged into this.

      The title is definitely a play on words. You're either a hunter or you pray. Get it? ;-)

      Yeah, I treat Goon comments the same way you do. Thoughtful ones, I'll respond to. Spergy ones, I publish and ignore.

      What Yuki didn't deserve was to be hounded out of the game. On the one paw, he was always pretty brittle. On the other paw, though, I feel like there should be SOME limits on or consequences for the ability for huge massive alliances to permanently war-dec little ones.

    2. +rep for the dog reference, hee hee! I'm choosing to stay engaged. It is hard to want to step away from such a passionate, opinionated, and well-spoken community even though I don't care all that much about EVE itself anymore. Sadly there is nothing even close to this kind of community among artists...we're all too self absorbed in doing our own thing, I guess.

      I'll allow that there should be reasonable counters in place for all game mechanics, whether those lie in game mechanics, tactics, social rallying, or relevant metagame actions (like opining on a blog). Considering that list of possibilities plus staying true to EVE's nature, it's no wonder it is so difficult for CCP devs to balance things. I don't think balance is their full responsibility, though. I think its up to players to exercise their brains and find the balancing counters in many if not most situations in EVE both in-game and in the metagame.

      But at the end of the day, Yuki had choices for how to respond. Leaving the game was one of them and that's what he chose...some might say he took the easy way out. So be it.

  13. Jester i observe the trend in your posting,
    You are usually very friendly to the entities you dont have to deal it face to face, but when someone move into your neighborhood(be it PL,Garmon in past and GS right now ) you change your approach towards them to the absolute hilarious bitterness and you dont hold back even to the most obvious lies and accusation , dont you think that it kinda hurts your credibility ?


    1. Hm, interesting idea. After thinking about it, though, I don't think so. I don't think I've ever been particularly favorable toward PL or Garmon, for instance. My position on Goons is extremely volatile and based on their actions, not where they live. Are GS moving into the neighborhood?

    2. While I also feel that the tone of Jesters posts has change to one which is more "bitter" for want of a better description, I do not believe it is limited to just people or corporations.

      I would suspect the man is under some stress in some area of life. :P

      Time to bring in some Garth and let off some steam eh Jester? :D

    3. Anon -

      And to which Goonswarm corporation do you belong?

  14. I think it's laughable that "war isn't supposed to be fair", but somehow being able to add allies after declaring the war mutual isn't fair and must be made fair. CCP Soundwave is talking out both sides of his mouths on both his faces.

    If you start a war, you reap the consequences. If the consequence of starting a war against someone you don't like is that you end up fighting everyone who doesn't like you, that's the fate you chose.

    The new wardec mechanics do nothing to encourage smaller corporations to change their policy of "turtle up and stop logging in." The progression of fees is exponential, since geometric progression displays exponential growth (i.e.: wardec fees are 10 x 2^N), it's just that geometric progression involves a sequence of numbers (10, 20, 40, 80, 160), rather than a continuum.

    Thus if 100 x 50-member alliances want to ally together to fight a 5000 member alliance, they would be paying in the order of 2.53 x 10^31 ISK per fortnight.

    1. The reason CCP made the changes is not in any way motivated by fairness. They don't care whether wars are "fair" or not.

      The reason they're making these changes is they want people to declare war. They fear (justifiably) that when players realise that any war declaration can lead to their corp being locked into a forever war against the entirety of EVE at zero cost to the opposition, and with no way for the aggressor to end it, no-one will ever declare wars.

      And that doesn't fit with CCPs design goals.

    2. Realizing you screwed up by pissed off too many people and getting stuck in a forever war against the entirety of eve sounds like a feature, not a bug. Consequences to in-game actions and all that.

    3. The contraposition of feature and bug in your argument is the fallacy of the false dilemma, or exhaustive hypotheses. Please read up on this fallacy and try again. Or, one could describe it as a straw man fallacy, it fails in many ways.

    4. @Anonymous

      If the players in question had pissed off all of eve, I might agree with you. However, in fact the majority of corp joining wars as allies currently have never heard of either the defenders or the attackers. They're doing it because it's an easy way to get more war targets at no cost. That is not the intended design.

  15. Mord Fiddle is NOT Wardec-ed unless he joined a war as an ally.
    We have not wardec-ed him. Also, he moderates out all of my posts because they disagree with his point of view. So he's even worse about silencing people than Goonswarm could be perceived to be doing.

    1. Powers -

      The only comment of yours I have moderated out was a rather vulgar personal insult that contributed nothing to the discussion at hand.

      You may troll on the forums and in Twitter. At "Fiddlers Edge" there is a slightly higher standard of intellectual discourse.

      I am grieved that you feel silenced by my refusal to post your insult on my blog and intimidated by my one-person corporation. Alas, if Mittens had not undertaken to intimidate Eve bloggers, we should not have come to this unpleasant turn.

      As soon as Mittens ends his targeting of Eve bloggers I shall happily stand down. Then puppies and unicorns shall frolic and gambol happily in the meadows of New Eden, and Goons shall once again be safe from my righteous anger.

    2. Mord moderates post, and not just for vulgarity. Disagree with him and your posts disappear.

  16. Really? Mord Fiddle 75 man (9000 man and Tech riches backed) deathsquad hunting you through EvE is there?

  17. What I found humorous about the responses on the different threads were the majority of Goons were happy with the change trying to say that it took them years to get enough friends so everyone should have to spend that kind of effort to fight them. Even more ludicrous was the idea that merc corps are better off after these changes.

    Let me think about that, spend money getting help from friends or spend money on a merc corp that may or may not actually help. Mercs would be a last ditch option after I see how things could be handled with friends. Plus the fee is so steep after about 6 allies there's no way I'd hire a small merc corp, 100members or not at all please.

    This whole situation is laughable. Soundwave once again demonstrates he's out of touch with the majority of people paying the bills and I have to wonder how much longer he's gonna be able to keep his attitude. I have a feeling when DUST fails to result in expected returns and Eve ends up being the main source of revenue the idea of how to lure in more subscribers will take precedence and buffoonish replies to the community will get you sent to the corner for a time out while the PR machine kicks into gear to get subscriptions up.

    I just can't see how DUST is going to pull in people outside of the Eve universe in any significant number. Planetside 2, Battlefield 3, Modern warfare 13, WoT, and a few other shooters have or will be more interesting then a tie in with Eve. Especially when the Dev's themselves tell us they don't want fair fights. No FPS player is gonna stick around long when they keep getting orbital bombarded back to the stone age since the side they are supporting is completely outmatched in space.

    The only reason I'm even interested in Eve at this point was the blog about changes to ships. Whoever is on ship design is showing a lot more forethought than Soundwave and his crew.

  18. Powers is correct. The Goons have not wardec-ed my one-man corporation. As Mittens has chosen to use the wardec system as a means of targeting and intimidating Eve bloggers, I have used the same system to take the fight to Mittens on behalf of bloggers throughout New Eden. Even Poetic Stanziel. (You're welcome, Stan).

    Terms under which Mittens may surrender to the Eve blogosphere (as represented by me)are outlined on my website (www.fiddlersedge.blogspot.com) in the post titled "Victory Conditions".

    Rabid? Hardly. "The Presumption of Safety Reconsidered" was on the strident side for me, but I take intimidation of the journalists (even those writing about internet spaceships) seriously. Poetic Stanziel, on the other hand, has been in a positively apoplectic rage on the wardec change subject. The tones of the two posts are hardly comparable.

    Your own comments on the post in question describe it as 'well written'. With that in mind, I take exception to your calling the post 'rabid' in order to create a false equivalency between it and Stan's digital tirade.

    1. Hm, I can live with "strident", I guess. But it was a bit relative, too. "Rabid" for Poetic is "foaming at the mouth and maiming passers-by" whereas "rabid" for you is "used a swear word, then blushed." ;-)

      Good writing and... ahem... strident writing are not mutually incompatible.

    2. Mord's article is crap. The number of kills that are "piling up" just aren't there (eve-kill.net). Also, I like how this has become a war on out of game critics when everyone is "in game". Also, does Jade Constantine have a blog?

      And I don't see anything indicating that Goons are upset with the "forever war" with lots of allies on the opposing side. I know everyone says, "There are plenty of posts of Goons whining," problem is I can't find them.

      I know, the claim is that there were deleted by Goons. Well how about a screen capture? Oh didn't think of that? Sure.

    3. Does anyone really have the time to go around screenshoting goon posts on gaming forums just on the off chance they might have a second thought and delete them ?

      I mean really, how bizzarely obsessional would somebody have to be to do that.

  19. I think the problem is that the wardec system will never work for a small party.

    Goons vs Star Fraction is a great example of why the war dec system currently in place works. It allows for smaller entities to fight against bigger ones and defend against enemies instead of having to dock up and log out.

    However take a small 10 person corp wardeccing another 10 man corp. That 10 man corp can be wardecced by the whole of eve looking for easy kills, much like the goons did. The defending corp just has to make the war neutral and the aggressive corp is constantly under wardec by 500 players or so.

    The only fair system would be allowing to balance numbers. If a 50 man corp is wardecced by a 100 man corp, the 50 man corp is allowed to bring in a corp with up to 50 members for free (or two alliances with 25 members and so on). After this number is hit then you have to pay to accept allies. The merc corps would still have a market and it'd be fair for pretty much everyone.

  20. Jester, i must admit that you provide in this blog a series of "view points" for both sides of the drama.

    What you fail to put in perspective though is the reaction of CCP. The main reason people always put in the table to revisit and redesign the war-dec system was because everyone knew it was a "pay to grief" mechanic. It didn't take any variables into the equation.

    When CCP soniclover showed some of the improvements in Fanfest, he directly said that most of the new features were not to "remove the pay-to-grief" ability of wardecs, just to change the variables so the aggresor could find itself in a predicamente againt a competent victim.

    The Goons-SF drama was exactly that, a targeted corp who found a way to use the mechanic of "pay-to-grief" back onto the aggresor something which was not possible before.

    CCP realizing this was "unfair" for the aggresor, without even remotely thinking of the victim of the war, is what astonishes me. CCP took favoritism for a type of behavior, which is something i don't recall they did before. Regardless if this benefit goonswarm or not, CCP just plain told the customers, we will reward those with a budget an ability to grief more than those who can outsmart their enemies.

    1. As an anonymous poster noted above, the problem is that while it might be amusing that it is Goons that have ended up locked in a forever war with Star Fraction, the same result could happen to smaller corporations/alliances that do declare wars. If this risk becomes large enough then no wars will be declared. Thus, a broken system.

      For Goons if anything this system has nothing but features not bugs. Goons live in null sec. Goons don't depend on hi sec...at least not for their mains. Their alts that do logistics and what not in empire are almost surely in NPC corps or in corps unaffiliated with Goons.

      A Goon can live in 0.0 for weeks if not months on end. Personal logistics might be a bit of a pain, but not that much, IMO. Have you ever looked at the market in VFK? It is pretty impressive.

  21. Let's hope that nobody involved kills themselves, shall we?

    Welp ... they can Pod themselves, and still stay within the game's "magic circle".

    As for Poetic ... anything he says is said through the brain filter of his E-Uni butthurt. If he seems to contradict himself, it is simply his way of finding some new means to ineffectually attack Kelduum's corp.

  22. What I find most disturbing, though not unexpected, is the number of players who are just saying 'bugger this' and just stop logging on. Regardless of the how, its yet another example of something CCP have monumentally screwed up, and their efforts to 'fix' it are making it worse.

    I've been watching the PCU count for some time and I don't see any patch bounce what so ever, in fact to my obviously ignorant eye, it looks to me like its getting worse (and yes I can read a graph)

    1. 40 of our corp members have quit playing, since Inferno was released. No rage - they just biomassed their toons and unsubbed their accounts.

      When asked "Why?" by our membership director, they generally stated that they don't like where CCP is taking the game.

      It sure looks like CCP Soundwave wants to turn high sec into a target-rich environment for the bored null sec players. Unfortunately for him, it also seems that the "targets" are not being given much incentive to keep on playing.

  23. I thought it could get better after the last post I read about this, but I'm glad I was wrong!

    This is a fantastic piece! And yes, you are right when you say that you don't have time to respond to 'sperg-warfare' that these Goons are so used to putting out. Goons as we all commonly know can't deal with what they dish out. And hilarious whining aside on their part, I honestly thought the ~largest alliance~ in Eve would do something right to redeem themselves.

    And finally, I would like to say Soundwave said something he is going to regret for a long time now,'Eve isn't fair'. This to me is something that is going to get thrown around a lot in the coming weeks/months. What is the right kind of 'fair'?

    Also,good bit on Mabrick. I actually see him in-game a lot because he is in the same system. He doesn't let this get him down which is really good on him.

    Keep writing Jester, I've just put a link of your blog on my bio as well. Cheers!

  24. It is Risk vs Reward. If you are the Goons you should know if you start a war because people slagged you off. You really should be smart enough to know that everyone in EVE that hates you will pile on.

    Personally I don't see the difference between a 9000 member alliance Wardecing a 10 to 100 member corp and the 9000 member corp being attacked by allies of a lot of small corps.

    CCP just saved Goonswarm, intentionally or not. Goonswarm members are always saying how it doesn't effect them as they are a null sec alliance but there are always so many in Hi-sec.

    Also on a different subject, I feel the new CCP forum rules are closer to CCCP.


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