Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Monday, June 11, 2012

QOTW: Godwin's Law

One of my favorite logical fallacies is one called "association fallacy."  This is probably because I like associations and analogies myself so much... but some of them just don't work.  The most famous association fallacy is "Godwin's law", which states "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Important note: suicide gankers are not Nazis.

EVE players love them their false associations and so can often make comparisons to Nazis or Hitler in the very first post of an EVE Online forum thread.  And that brings me to the Quote of the Week:
Whether it's Jews or Miners, racism is racism, prejudice towards an 'other' is prejudice.
As much fun as the continuing drama around Hydra Reloaded and the AT have been, the brand new drama around mining ship ganking continuing into June is even more fun.  The Mittani stirred up a lot of folks when he mentioned on Twitter that he was thinking about continuing the bounty on Hulk kills in perpetuity.  This might sound expensive, but as I've mentioned on this blog before the Goons gain a direct financial benefit from every Hulk killed.  The tech bottleneck isn't going to last forever.  I'd be surprised if we didn't see some major changes to T2 production before the year is out, in fact.  As a result, a few more months of Hulk bounties aren't going to break the Goon bank and the tactic might even be profitable.

It's certainly profitable in the rage that it's producing.

A lot of miners seem to have reached the conclusion at some point that as long as they dock up or avoid trouble during Hulkageddon itself, they should be entitled to 11 months of gank-free mining goodness.  Now that this is proving not to be the case, the carebear rage has begun.

Important note: mining is not a civil right.

I'm sorry I had to type that, but that's really what it's starting to sound like out there: like mining is a federally-protected play style and that by interfering with it, Goons and other gankers are violating people's inherent right to play EVE.  The sputtering indignation is rather amusing.  Where it evolves into full-fledged comedy is when the sputtering rage gives voice to people who are obviously professionals in their real lives trying to justify (or bemoan) their habits.  This particular thread -- even if it was a troll -- certainly exemplifies that.

And I've read more than one follow-on thread or post comparing the on-going ganking of miners to the Holocaust.

The words "false association" don't even begin to cover this.

Important note: miners are not a federally-protected endangered species.

It's gotten to the point that at any given moment now, on the top page of the EVE "General Discussion" section, there are four to five threads about this.  Oh, some people put different spins on it: gankers are chasing off new players, or gankers are hurting the game's economy.  One very amusing thread posits that ganking is a "low skill and low risk trade" that "takes place in high-sec", and therefore mining is actually the higher-skill, more dangerous occupation!

I was never that big of a reader of the EVE Online forums.  The signal to noise ratio has dropped below acceptable levels in most of the sections.  Still, I have to admit that I'm getting a big kick out of this particular issue.  We'll have to see if things settle down into a new normal.  One thing that the miners forget about the Goons is that they don't have a particularly long attention span.  I suspect something shiny will distract them in due course.

41 comments:

  1. Gankers aren't nazis, gankers are men who just want to watch the world burn, or alternately, capitalists that realize that 100m for ten hulk kills is an easy way to make isk.

    Heaven forbid, they enjoy hurting other people's progress while staying within the limitations of the game.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Get a covetor. T1. Insurable if thats what you want to do. Also pays for itself a damn sight quicker than a hulk will. Mines close to what a hulk does.

    Oh... did I mention you don't need technetium to build one...?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. All good points there H, since this a game in almost anything can happen, why does all the miners team up, or pay someone to fix there problem?

      They seam to have money, they could try to fight ?

      Delete
    2. I've said this before, elsewhere. Gankers are effectively lightning strikes. There are things that individual miners can do to reduce the chance of the strike hitting them (mine with logi support, fit tank, mine aligned, Dscan etc) but there's nothing that can be done to stop the ganks happening overall.

      Delete
  3. While calling griefers and gankers Nazis is not accurate, it is not a Godwin's law to indicate that both types of behavior are based on superiority complex and desire to cause pain to others. Which is not very far from Nazis ideology and patterns of bahavior. Throw in the wannabee dictators into the mix and we see history repeating itself on a smaller scale. CCP made it possible for eve players to role-play Nazis, so why would we be surprised that this seems to be happenning. Not all Eve players want to be like that, but those who channel their inner Nazi seem to be quite prominent within the game.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Exactly.......the Mittani's Tweet about it even says the OP calls him Hitler or something. The whole thing is so far from what was actually typed. Comparison does not meas "is". HAs everyone forgotten Metaphor ?? Jesus.

      And yes, it's so sad this is the type of thing that winds up eventually discussing what "is" is.

      Delete
    2. Archibald Frederick IIIJune 12, 2012 at 11:13 AM

      "it is not a Godwin's law to indicate that both types of behavior are based on superiority complex and desire to cause pain to others. Which is not very far from Nazis ideology and patterns of bahavior."

      /rant

      That is EXACTLY a Godwin's law. By saying anyone and everyone who displays 'a superiority complex and desire to cause pain to others' shares a characteristic with a nazi and is therefore should be treated as a nazi, you and the forum OP A) undervalue the extremely serious shit the nazis did, like torturing and brutally murdering entire ethnic groups (rl, not pixels), B) fail to differentiate between nazism (which is a fairly specific social and economic set of systems) and all the other forms of collective assholism that one can practice, like Stalinism and whatever -ism applies to the Khmer Rouge, C) make a strong case that every two-bit schoolyard bully or manager on a power trip is just as bad as a nazi (because hey, they also have superiority complexes and enjoy causing pain), which is clearly ludicrous and dilutes the meaning of 'nazi' to the point of meaninglessness, and D) make it harder for the grown-ups in the room to discuss the issue, if there is an issue, and explore possible solutions, because mewling about nazis amuses the gankers, encouraging them to continue, while allowing them to dismiss anyone actually constructively trying to dissuade them from ganking as 'one of those mewling carebears that thinks I'm a nazi. LOL'.

      Nazis were, and are, serious fucking business. There is NOTHING that ANYONE could do in Eve that would make them as bad as nazis, and only a few specific types of social organization that might merit comparison to nazism. The only people who should be identified and penalized as nazis ... are nazis.

      /endrant

      Delete
  4. I'm not a ganker or miner, so I don't have any bias towards either one. That being said, anyone who compares ganking, or griefing (I don't consider it that, but that's what the miners call it), to something as horrible as the holocaust immediately loses any credibility in their argument imo. Let's compare some computer pixels to the murder and torture of millions of people.

    People are so thick sometimes it scares me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Comparisons are comparisons to illustrate a point. You seem HURT as if he said "is".

      Delete
  5. I would LOVE to see miners accept that New Eden is not a safe place and that whining is not the answer. Stop paying CCP in droves like the gankers and griefers did to get what they wanted; call it a Summer of Rage Part Deux. In the sandbox, the creators need the destroyers need the creators. Outside of the sandbox, CCP needs your money. Deny both in one click of the "cancel subscription" button or organize a PVP response, hire mercenaries, whatever - organize and solve the problem or admit you are part of the problem by being such easy Care Bear tear machines.

    ReplyDelete
  6. It is interesting that Goons have only continued the bounties on Hulks and Orcas. Since every other form of isk generation with little effort has been nerfed, makes one wonder when moon goo will get the hammer?

    ReplyDelete
  7. As far as I understand it Goonswarm, and indeed Something Awful, are entirely about entertaining its members by finding or provoking bad internet contributions.

    In other words by Godwinning these guys are effectively pouring blood into the water in the hope it will repel sharks.

    If they had any sense they'd just play Diablo 3 or World of Tanks for a couple of months until the Goons got bored. As it is, I don't think there's any possible strategy, including getting a kickass fleet out to null to invade Deklein, that could have got the Goons more interested than posting badly and angrily.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I'm just thankful that Diablo 3 is out now so I don't have to worry about this metagame bullshit. All I'm doing atm is logging in to do skill changes and a bit of PI ... if things don't get better as far as indusrty/mining etc I'll just cancel my accounts.

    I've never really been into the PvP side of EVE I like the sandbox and the complex nature of the game but all this metagame bullshit is just getting too old. I want to be able to log on mine or run some missions etc without having to spend and hour a day everyday reading the fourms etc.

    So I guess I win .... the only way to win EvE is not to Play lol

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Krixtal IcefluxorJune 12, 2012 at 5:34 AM

      I'm the Main of the Offending Horrible Poster.

      Amen brother !

      Delete
  9. If you review the Hulkageddon stats, Goonswarm did not actually end up paying out all that much, since only a relatively few hardcore gankers ranked up enough kills to collect the Goon bonus. Most of the folks who played bad guy in this year's Hulkageddon only killed a couple of Hulks/Macks each, but the aggregate numbers were larger 'cause a lot more people decided to participate this year.

    So, does it really matter much if Mittens keeps the bounty going? No, not really. Most of the Hulkageddon gankers have gone back to doing whatever they were doing before Hulkageddon - only a few really, really bored noobs are still out ganking mining ships.

    As for the whining in forums, check the names and do a few searches. These are mostly the same folks who have been whining since the first Hulkageddon. Then, check the killboards and you'll find that they are also the same idiots who fit (and lose) untanked Hulks/Macks, with about 5K EHP. Greedy and stupid - they get what they deserve.

    If you want to mine, fit a tank. No big deal. Are you going to get ganked? Maybe, but unlikely. Chances are that a ganker will pass you by for softer targets. After all, why would I bother to kill a tanked Hulk with a Tornado when I can kill an untanked Hulk with a Catalyst?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. true. just a peek at the leaderboards and some investigating shows most of the 'culprits'/'usual suspects' went back to their mains this month

      Delete
  10. The amusing thing is hulks can really be hard to kill.

    Your bait hulk [ http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/04/bait-hulk-emergent-gameplay.html ] for instance without an in system booster would be a hard kill.

    Your bait hulk with some ECM drones out would be an extremely hard kill.

    While i may be responsible for some of the tears the terrible hulk fits play a huge role.

    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13640228
    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13640227

    Those are two kills done at once. Those two ships combined have less hit points than your suggested fit.

    To me it would be like fitting a nightmare with 5 heat sinks and mids full of tracking comps then complaining it got blown up in a mission.

    Hulks don't need a buff, help, or federal protection. They need to get some better fits.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. honestly, my impression of hulkageddon has been two fold:
      (1) that the vast majority of suicide gank victims were either untanked or had shitty fits
      (2) since i was hard pressed to find a single decently tanked killmail on the leaderboards day in day out the troll of "if you tank you'll just bring more pew" seen on the forums is a patent...well...troll.

      and if you're still untanked as a miner you're either a bot or a n00b and i abhor the former. seething rage is more like it. =]

      Delete
  11. I am not a fan of "civil mining rights" myself but I think that this nonsense (OTEC, Hulkageddon, Gankers vs. Miners, etc) DOES hurt eve a lot.

    I know this is a sandbox game, I know that you can die a lot and loose all your possessions. Yet I find it interesting and enraging that both sides think their way is the way this game is or should be played.

    Miners: you work in a harsh environment, get used to it (ie: fit TankHulks:

    Gankers: you do not own anything. Not the player you just blew up not the ship you flew and by the way: you are just playing another people's game you are basically a drone for Mittani.

    I'll help the mining noobs:

    [Hulk, PvE - Tank]
    Damage Control II
    Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
    Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
    Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
    Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
    Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
    Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
    Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's almost exactly the last version of Jester's bait hulk (the only difference being the strip miners), this is going to be the third time it's quoted in this post's comments: http://jestertrek.blogspot.it/2012/04/bait-hulk-emergent-gameplay.html

      Delete
    2. The problem with this bait hulk is the same now as it was the first time it was posted. I'm there to mine, not bait, and this thing is bad at mining. I agree there can be a tradeoff in mining yield versus tank, but the lost productivity is too steep for the EHP gain.

      Delete
    3. you're kidding me...Jester may call it that but to me i've always flown decently tanked hulks since day one. I'd call it the 'smart fit' and have been doing so ever since he posted that fit.

      call it what you like. To me it's making myself and therefore the system less attractive to gankers. that's why i hate bots so much cuz they attract gankers to the low trafficked systems with their shitty fits.

      As for your "cost vs benefits" ratio - those mining upgrades aren't boosting you by more than 20% (give or take 5%) while a good fleet booster can do more to help you than those crappy ass modules on your mining barge.

      Delete
    4. @mordis and @Extra

      It is called TANK for a reason, it is NOT a bait, but a TANK HULK.

      Yes, I does mine badly. But no, chances are you will not be ganked when flying this. And yes, Jester posted something similar but that doesn't mean he's got copyright on it. This fit is pretty close to what you can achieve with this ship.

      Is it perfect? No. Is it necessary? Yes!

      Delete
    5. I'm not kidding so I'll explain. BTW, I've never had a hulk ganked even though I still mine during Hulkaggedon. I can use 2 orcas running 3 T2 mining links (makes all ships permarun a shield booster and hardeners cap stable) plus T2 shield harmonizing and active shielding links for 5 hulks. My "shit fit" hulks use Halada's nullsec tank fit (3 x T2 strips, 1 GistB small booster, 2xGistB hardeners, 1xcap recharger, 2x MLU2, 1xCCC rig, 1xCDFE rig). Each hulk makes 1.4B isk per month. Swapping out a 9% MLU2 for a damage control costs me 720m per month and still allows a catalyst to blow up a hulk. They have already won because I would lose 1.5 hulks per month in lost productivity without them firing a shot. Tanking my hulks like those that can survive a 5 catalyst gank would cost me almost 3B is per month but would almost guarantee I wouldn't lose a hulk to a gank. I could swap 1 hulk out for a scimitar and also lose 20% productivity. Staying in 0.9 and 1.0 space only costs about 10% productivity. As I said, the cost vs benefits ratio is way out of proportion. I feel that sacrificing an MLU for defense should give me 5x the EHP I get now. As it stands now, it's almost better to have no tank and its associated higher cost because even a moderate tank will still lose to a single destroyer.

      Delete
    6. you know, when i screw up my numbers Jester usually keeps silent out of politeness. I however aren't so gregarious. =P

      Jester's bastardized fit:
      3 ice harvester II
      Adaptive Invuln Field II
      Limited Adaptive Invuln I
      Upgraded Thermic Diss Amp I
      Medium Shield Extender II
      Damage Control II
      Micro Aux Power Core II
      2 medium cargo rigs
      --- That's 27628 EHP against guristas dmg

      Your fit? srsly? 8000 cargo means you'd be micromanaging every 3 minutes...and that fits for null sec? damn right it is! you think i'd float around in high sec with 80m isk worth of droppable loot? ROFLMAO. And 720m isk? come off it with the statistics since you're not lowering your greed factor by more than 9% with each Ice Harvester Upgrade module.

      keep talking, it's funn3h

      Delete
    7. You got me! I see you are not a miner with a worthy opinion, you are a troll. And who said anything about ice mining?

      Delete
  12. The goons aren't the major problem in Highsec ganking. Problem is the automatic pay system + the random highsec ganker. Even if goons are attracted by something other shiny i doubt that this payment will be canceled before tech prices falling.

    If all those gankers who claim to be "PvPers" (it isn't that impressive to shoot people who won't fight back) would do real PvP against others with good fights (small scale, large scale and anything in between) they would realize that they could do a lot more pvp if those mineral sources wouldn't be destroyed. Complaining about high prices and still ganking those who can lower them ... well "brains offline" i guess.

    Against some individuals that say you can mine in a BS like the Rohk and get out almost same amount... well yes. on the paper. The greatest benefit of strip miners are there 3 minute cycle time. You can easily mine with 5 Hulks multiboxing but never with a BS you have to unload every 30 seconds.

    Miners have to take some blame too. This is an MMO and mining solo is neither profitable nor safe and will most likely never be. By now any miner should have realized that. Team up together and accompany your hulks with one scimmitar and shield logistic drones. The Scimi can lock 8 Hulks and if the pilot is not at sleep and the hulks are spread out and have there drones assigned they are very hard to gank. Cut your mins through 9 and the scimi pilot gets 1/9 of the pie. All got profit and all stay alive.

    But we will always have those who prefer complaining about something instead of adapting to it. I often complain about afk cloak ;-)
    Some will be addressed by ccp, some not, but no matter how much is done there will always be complains.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Gankers actually *are* chasing off new players. I've been in a n00b corp for a while and have seen it happen several times. Three, four year old pilots can baiting and destroying players barely a month in the game, is not a good new player retention strategy, I assure you.

    The question is, whether those unsubs matter in the big picture. Short term - no, I don't think so, it's not like it's thousands of them. Long term, Eve *might* become a less diverse sandbox, and that would be a pity.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The problem with using this logic is that you're trying to use logic. The gankers generally don't care about things like long time growth of the player base. And who wants to sit down and thing about the meaning of the rather short average player life ( meaning that for every multi-year vet flying around, there's been dozens if not a hundred players that signed up, played for a few months, then said the hell with his and quit )? Or consider the fact that the daily average online playerbase is basically flat, at least until the number of those long term vets hits the point where it drains away faster than replacements who stay active.

      Instead they'll justify what they do as being good for the game, that they're "teaching new players to htfu", and getting their laughs over how funny it is to piss on somebody's half of the sandbox, and how it's not their problem that other sandbox occupant left to go play baseball.

      Delete
  14. Those "important notes" are only meaningful to those who believe them. People play EVE for their own reasons. If someone mines for fun and can no longer do that, they leave. Some whine on the way out. You can say HTFU or GTFO all you want, but we all know it makes EVE a poorer experience when we lose people. Diversity makes the game more fun.

    Instead of fueling the unproductive arguments, it's too bad blogs like this can't seek input and compromise for a solution. The alternative is CCP sees canceled accounts and overreacts with a 50k EHP buff to hulks, or makes this one of the bulletpoints for the "Sanctuary" expansion that eliminates PVP in hisec.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I like mining. i love mining. i absolutely hate with a passion bots and all things that attract bored lazy griefers to kill stupid lazy carebears near me and mine.

      I'm the sort of person who plays this risky game because that never never land of risk free play does NOT attract me one iota.

      I know that many people like me play this game not only because of that reason but also because of the steep learning curve and vast depth to this game that attracts 'explorers' (and we all know Bartle's rule that the only way to attract socializers is to attract achievers is to attract explorers)

      so yeah, your logic = fail.

      Delete
    2. You put words in my mouth. I didn't say people will only play if it is risk free. For those who continue to play, risk is probably a big part of the fun...even for miners like me. When the risk becomes so high that the game is no longer fun, people will leave. I am reminded of people talking about removing Local from nullsec. While wormholers find it acceptable to mash the dscan button while mining, I do not. It would no longer be fun for me. Multiboxing a fleet of mining Rohks is not fun for me. Hisec ganking is always viable, but Hulkageddon heightens it. Some find the additional awareness needed to avoid ganks overwhelms the fun. They log off for the month.

      My only logic was people leave when the game is no longer fun. My opinion was I would like to see people seek a compromise that will keep a wide array of players in the game--for the good of the game (stupid lazy carebears included, bots excluded) instead of defaulting to "HTFU/GTFO."

      Delete
    3. thanks for clarifying. Your initial paragraph made it sound like you were associating "fun" with "carebear rights."

      of course, if mining anywhere required me to multibox Battleships to mine (with the ludicrous micromanaging involved) i'd obviously find that "not fun"...except this is Jester's Trek blog not the trollish forums that bear no resemblance to eve life. Hulkageddon had an effective shelf life of a month and Mittens forgets his voice has influence merely because he rides the crest of the wave of a very short attention span low common denominator 'alliance'...I don't believe i'll ever have to resort to that micromanagement silliness compared to the absolute ease of 1/2hr window where i don't need to touch my ice mining client (that assumes cargo expanders in low of a hulk. best way to AFK mine, at least i used to till Jester sold me on his 'bait' ship)

      besides my above opinion these are the facts:
      ice ore prices have entered bear market; I have yet to see a single tanked barge suicide gank on the leaderboard for hulkageddon; GMs will act on griefing if someone is chased all over and suicide ganked continuously in high sec, regardless of their "HTFU" attitude; Most alliances have a rule of no high sec ganking (because you never know who's alt you've just podded)

      Delete
  15. This is the 2nd Blog that has had this innocuous quote highlighted. I cannot see the issue with using a demonstrable comparison between one subjugated and castigated group and another group.

    This comment was valid.

    I think this dude just really got up under you guy's skin with a TRUTH that you do not like.

    IT really seems more prejudicial on your part, and the Mittani's post about this (that went out as well) bespeaks a desperate paranoia at this point saying the post says he IS Hitler.....and the name is never even mentioned.

    You guys all need to lay off the attitude.

    Just look at the terrible server count numbers now.

    Besides, what WOULD be an adequate or comparable comparison that would be acceptable to you ? Comparing the Mittani to a Saint ?

    It is indeed The Death of Discourse.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I cannot see the issue with using a demonstrable comparison between one subjugated and castigated group and another group."

      That is because you are literally Hitler and your commenting is just exactly like people gassing other people with cyanide in concentration camps.

      Delete
  16. It seems he is only helping active miners. As mineral prices rise, mining is more profitable. Active miners have a better chance of getting out of a gank. The reason actively mining is not worth your time is because other people are passively doing it.

    If anything, hulkageddon makes life hard on strict pvpers, who are paying inflated prices for their ships, but not getting inflated prices for their dropped mods. Carebears should get behind hulkageddon, especially newbies who cant compete with an afk hulk.

    That said, I don't think mittens is doing this because he loves newbies. He is making money, and likely basking in his eglory.

    ReplyDelete
  17. lolz on the "carebearing is high risk"

    to me, after a decade of mmogs (sci-fi ever since i quit UO) the definitions are real simple:
    (1) Griefer = risk-averse PVPer
    (2) Carebear = risk-averse PVEer

    hmmmm...come to think of it i wonder if "bartle's types" (in some iteration) could encompass that concept? never thought of that before. *wanders off to ponder*

    ReplyDelete
  18. oh and if anyone's not paying attention here to the true irony of why the rage is so silly: Isotope prices have peaked and we're entering a bear market. so neener neener neener

    ReplyDelete
  19. Since you brought up the comparison of endangered species any player wishing to have the sort of protection should take a look at the population of tigers in the wild in the face of a significant financial incentive to see them dead. Capitalism can be and often is cruel.

    ReplyDelete
  20. "...mining is actually the higher-skill, more dangerous occupation"

    I'd say engaging in any fight with an armed vessel, when you're NOT armed...which will eventually, invariably happen to every miner, over an over and over...and surviving, ever?! - that is, in fact, the apex of skill.

    I think you underestimate how much of Eve PvP is just random rape of non-combat ships by shit like rifters. Is it fun? Sure. FunNY? Sometimes... Take skill? Eff no.

    ReplyDelete

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