Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Tuesday, June 12, 2012

Total war

And now for a short history lesson, where Jester Makes History Fun.  Are you seated comfortably?  Then I'll begin.  Don't worry, this is a short one.

When the 20th century opened, there were six major powers in Europe: the British Empire, the French Republic, the German Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, and the Russian Empire.  Associated with them were a smattering of smaller powers such as Italy, Serbia, Bulgaria, Belgium, and Romania.  Warfare as a means of gaining territory or resources was slowly going out of style.  It was considered much more civilized to engage in strategic alliances to prevent such things.

Still, in an obvious contradiction, all six major powers were more or less completely confident in their ability to simultaneously fight off several of the others if need be.  In an even more glorious obvious contradiction, virtually all of them also had territorial or resource ambitions at the expense of the others.  This caused each of the six major powers to establish interlocking alliances with several of the others in order to balance alliances established by perceived threatening powers.  Each alliance had conditions under which they would automatically go war to "defend" their allies.  And several of them were itching to do so thanks to those territorial or resource ambitions.

Needless to say, this combination of factors was not stable.  It was inevitable that sooner or later, some excuse would cause many or all of those interlocking alliances to come into play.  Austro-Hungary invaded Serbia, which caused Germany to invade Belgium which caused France to attack Germany which caused Britain and Russia to defend France and the Ottoman Empire to defend Germany.  Before long, between all these powers and their colonies, pretty much the entire world was at war.

And all of them were pretty sure they were in the right, and all of them were pretty sure they were going to win.

Jade Constantine is a very polarizing figure in EVE.  Depending on who you ask, he is a folk hero... or the worst thing ever to happen to the CSM and to New Eden... or both.  Regardless, he's never exactly been shy about voicing his opinion or shaking up the community.  And to make a long story short, he's doing so again.

Around 7 June or so, Jade's alliance, The Star Fraction, got itself war-dec'ed by Goonswarm.  Now this kind of war-dec happens a lot and Goons of course have started their "Ministry of Love" to foster just this sort of thing.  Jade was an obvious target of the Ministry; we all know what high respect The Mittani holds for Jade.  A lot of corps would laugh off such a war-dec.

Jade decided to have a little fun with it instead.  Taking advantage of the new ally system, he first declared the war mutual (thereby chaining himself to the Goon war-dec), then he asked for allies.

Lots of allies.

In fact, he asked pretty much everyone in EVE that wasn't a Goon to be his ally.

I encourage you to go out and read the posts, because Jade makes his case far better than I could.  I myself found it quite amusing.  The ally system was built for this exact circumstance: allow a lesser-powered entity to defend itself against a more powerful aggressor.  This is what those that have been asking for balance in war-decs have been asking for for years: a means to defend themselves when they are not as strong as the corp war-dec'ing them.  If a 9000-man alliance declares war on a 100-man alliance, what is the smaller entity supposed to do other than recruit thousands of allies of their own?  Try to fight on their own?  Ha.

What CCP clearly didn't plan on was someone literally chaining themselves to such a war-dec and then selling the ability to shoot the aggressor as a service!(1)  A couple of people had this idea before Jade, but Jade was the first person to put it into actual practice, and to get results with it.  Hundreds -- maybe even thousands -- of EVE players moved to ally themselves with The Star Fraction lured by the promise of Goon kill reports and the ability to laugh at the Goons en masse.  Initially, Jade was open to Goon surrender... for five billion ISK per ally he recruited.  Once it was clear how successful this was going to be, though, Jade declared that the mutual war and the free ally membership for anyone who wanted in on it would go on... forever.

In the first 48 hours of this unexpectedly massive "foreverwar", the Goons started losing ships at a hysterical rate.  Suddenly realizing that they had a tiger by the tail and finding that they couldn't cast off the mutual war chains linking them to The Star Fraction without using the new surrender mechanics, the Goons did something rather un-Goon-like.  They panicked.  Some, in fact, would say that they whined.  In a game that historically has consequences -- most of them bad -- they tried to make the case that this was a consequence that CCP did not intend.  Consequences are bad, right?

Did CCP really intend for all of New Eden to be able to come to the aid of an aggressed corp?  Particularly an aggressed corp that seemed to welcome the attention of the war by making it mutual?  Particularly forever?  In short, did CCP intend to let anyone who wanted to be able to shoot any Goon they wanted to, all across New Eden?  You don't mean that, CCP?  Do you?  Right?

Turns out, the answer is "no".  CCP has blinked, they've blinked big-time, and they blinked fast.  In the feature-set for the upcoming Inferno 1.1 release are these notes:
  • Ally contracts have fixed length of two weeks
  • Allies can not be part of mutual wars – defender cannot hire allies into mutual wars and existing ally contracts are cancelled (with a 24 hour grace period)
The mutual war-dec had only been active for about three days and these two changes neuter it.  As always, when CCP gets out the nerf-bat, they don't mess around.  It's easily arguable that CCP has taken the attempt to balance the war-dec mechanic and thrown it right back over in favor of the aggressor.  The number of mutual wars is now likely to decline to roughly one in all of New Eden (RvB).  And making the victim re-sign all his allies every two weeks definitely puts the aggressors back in the driver's seat.  The lofty position of a 9000-member alliance war-dec'ing a 100-member alliance -- and to get out of that war whenever they want to -- seemed to have been re-secured.

This is doubly ironic when you consider this started on the same day that Mittens said he was thinking about offering bounties for Hulk kills in perpetuity.

Needless to say, the drama storm is just getting started on this one.  Did CCP cave to the Goons?  Did Mittens pull out his vaunted CCP Rolodex and start making phone calls?  That's certainly what a lot of people seem to believe.  Most of the CSM is engaged, the thread is up to 21 pages already, and it's growing at about a post every two minutes.  And that's before all the other controversial things in the Inferno 1.1 feature list.  Everyone buckle up!

EDIT (13/Jun/2012): It's worth noting that Yuki of White Rose Conventicle, another of the Goon's permanent war targets, has left EVE and taken the WRC blog down as a result of the Goon war-dec.  Now granted, I wasn't exactly Yuki's biggest fan... but he didn't deserve that.


(1) Yes, I know that Jade was "selling" this service for free, but you get my point.

103 comments:

  1. I'm a bit confused. If everyone wants to fight goons together, why doesn't everyone just join an alliance and then have that alliance wardec goons, and go live in null and fight goons there too? Isn't that simpler and better than some weird infinite 'ally' mechanic that is obviously an oversight by CCP, judged on any objective scale? Isn't that the lesson we're supposed to draw from your WWI example?

    "If a 9000-man alliance declares war on a 100-man alliance, what is the smaller entity supposed to do other than recruit thousands of allies of their own?"

    They are just as free to recruit allies now as they were before the revert. Allies in the traditional meaning of members of your alliance, not allies in the newfangled and inferior meaning of selling free wardecs. It really is an unfortunate double-loading of that wordstem by CCP, although no one else seems to mind.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Goon effort involved in war-dec'ing 100 person alliance: click ze butan.

      100 person alliance effort involved in doing what you say: months of negotiations, greenmail, drama, and pain.

      The balance is just very slightly off. The interlocking alliances of World War I were quite literally a century in the making.

      Delete
    2. The CFC exists because people at the top continually put in months of negotiations, greenmail, drama, and pain.

      It's a level playfield, everybody else is just behind the times.

      Delete
    3. "The balance is just very slightly off. The interlocking alliances of World War I were quite literally a century in the making."

      Well, luckily for all concerned, goonswarm built a 9000 man alliance in much less than a century, so I don't think it would be imbalanced to ask their opponents to do something similar to what they did to fight them effectively, instead of just selling free wardecs to one and all. In fact, I would call that the very definition of balance. You hoped to make a valid point by comparing clicking the wardec button to building an alliance of thousands, but in fact that comparison is in fact the fatal flaw in the unlimited allies scenario introduced in inferno. That scenario lets an alliance of 100 fight an alliance of 9000, whose size and power was established through years, not months, of negotiations, greenmail, drama, and pain, merely by clicking one button to solicit allies. You are indeed hoist by your own petard.

      The situation isn't anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be, however. In actual fact, building an alliance of 9000 from scratch seems a much more difficult task than merely getting these thousands of people who are supposedly itching to get in a fair fight with Goons to just get off their arse and all join a countervailing alliance.

      I don't want to be taken the wrong way, I'm not in a large alliance, and I think that if EVE were to polarize into mainly 2-3 large alliances with 15000 players each, that would be horrible for the game. I think that the fact that this is not the case speaks highly for the way in which CCP has balanced the game. What I do take issue with, is people who simultaneously argue that A. Joining or forming a very large alliance is incredibly difficult and annoying(for everyone not in GF), and B. Joining or forming a very large alliance takes absolutely zero effort(this only applies to GF).

      Delete
    4. Most of the "allies" of Jade don't want to fight Goons.

      They just want to fight in highsec where no one can drop a titan on them.

      Delete
    5. I'm more confused. Why does ANYONE need to wardec a nullsec alliance? It's not like our VFK home sector is all that hidden. Want to fight Goons, grab 500 friends and hop to it.

      That's where these "goonspiracies" fall apart -- Goons are a nullsec alliance. Open PVP is normal to us. These retarded wardecs are only interesting in a, "hey, we can go screw up entitled highsec carebears" sorta way. It's not like we hang out in highsec other than to gank people (which we do on alts).

      Delete
  2. I will tell you what the problem is, it's another case of "entity X is no longer on state Y, thus will no longer be allowed to do W" type of rule.

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  3. Awww. Kinda disappointed really. I'd have loved to see the goons would've coped with a wide array of forces against them.

    Esp if it came to asset (and sales) denial in high sec. It ended way to soon to really have shaken up the landscape.

    Could have been really really interesting from a we write the stories/sandbox perspective. Darn. Only just found out about it too :(

    ReplyDelete
  4. I think this says it all....

    "I think the biggest issue here is that we're trying to solve different issues. I'm trying to bring the merc trade back into EVE and you're trying to add some measure of fairness into wars, which Isn't really a design philosophy in EVE."

    "Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE and the war dec system wasn't built for that either. I understand that it's annoying when a big alliance war decs you, but that's hardly new to EVE. Big alliances get annoyed with bigger coalitions outnumber them and so on. That's a fact of life in EVE and we're not likely to change that direction anytime soon. The other thing is that war dec prices are determined by the value you get from them. If you want to go to war with someone, a higher number of potential targets should be more expensive. If you're a smaller alliance, this makes you a less attractive target, unless you've made someone angry in which case you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created."

    "Letting attackers add allies conflicts with the notion that attacking someone is risky. If you decide you want to go to war with someone, the consequence is that he could punch harder than you anticipated. If this is just about stacking up allies, the power of that choice fades away a little bit."

    CCP Soundwave

    ...and when we are all Goon pets in the CCP Game GOON EMPIRE there will be no conflict.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Honestly, Jester, I am surprised to find you swept up in goon-mania and fueling this kind of hysteria. I mean the idea that Goonswarm was trembling in such fear of Jade's test-the-system experiment that they needed CCP to bail them out by changing the entire wardec system to cater to their plight is fairly laughable.

      Surely you know how much Goonswarm (and the Mittani in particular) would LOVE everyone to believe they have this level of illuminati-esque control over the game developers compared to the likelihood of that power actually existing.

      You wouldn't possibly be asking questions in your final paragraph that you know full well will provoke the kind of drama you are "predicting" will result from this change? Would you? Right?

      I'm sorry to disappoint the both the Great Goon Overlord and the White Knight Constantine, but the problems with unlimited ally stacking were presented to CCP before this situation ever developed. It happens to be one example of why the mechanic was problematic, and should be addressed regardless of whether it helps or hinders one particular alliance (9000 strong or otherwise).

      One thing I think we can both agree on - the changes proposed for Inferno 1.1 by no means leaves the war dec system in a state of completion. This situation demands iterative attention if the goal is a set of war mechanics that allow for a true marketplace where security can be bought and sold for a *real* price.

      Delete
    2. Thanks for the response, Hans! Can you point me to a CSM post indicating that this issue had been communicated to CCP? Thanks!

      Delete
    3. Sure, no problem. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1323006#post1323006

      Aleks also linked Soniclover to a further discussion on the internal forums where multiple CSM's contributed feedback detailing why the initially proposed war dec mechanics directly undermine the stated goal of opening up a "mercenary marketplace".

      Delete
    4. "The Goons did something rather un-Goon-like. They panicked. Some, in fact, would say that they whined. In a game that historically has consequences — most of them bad — they tried to make the case that this was a consequence that CCP did not intend. Consequences are bad, right?"

      As the guy who runs the Goonswarm wars in highsec, Gotta agree with Hans here. You guys are blowing a few player (individual goon) requested wardecs out of proportion. Jade saved one guy who was paying directors about 500mil/week for a wardec. Jade is disliked by pretty much everyone on the west side of the map.

      I would love a citation about us crying that the wardec was unfair.

      Delete
    5. Why is the ally mechanic problematic Hans? In low sec and null sec defenders can always try to bring allies to the table to help. Why is this problematic for high-sec? High-sec war decs are the only case in EVE where an aggressor can choose who can fight back so it is just a heaven for griefers.

      Why would it be problematic to make high-sec wars more like null/low sec ones? Due to the changes even Noir Posted about them billing 0.0 rates for offensive war-decs (see: http://noirmercs.com/content.php?191-Inferno-Pricing-and-Services-Update ). So even they agree that the ally system is a change to make high-sec wars more like null. Why is this so problematic?

      Delete
    6. pro reply Jester!

      I'd like to see that letter too!

      Delete
    7. Ha ha ha! You are so cruel Jester! Keep the b*stards honest :)

      Delete
    8. I can't, but I posted exactly this problem to CCP well before Inferno was even released. CCP was planning on fixing this stuff before the Inferno release as well. I really expected better from you, this post was *terrible*.

      Delete
    9. One big topic was the new ‘ally’ system that was introduced for wars in Inferno. TLDR – it’s pretty broken and doesn’t pass the common sense test in practice on many levels. Top three things – putting a cap on the number of ‘ally’ slots, an upper limit cap on war dec costs and establishing a firm expectation on what ‘mercenaries’ in empire are capable of so that the “mercenary marketplace” can flourish. Changes on this are inbound on all of this and will be tweaked until both sides are happy.

      http://www.evenews24.com/2012/06/12/council-of-stellar-management-7-spring-summit-review-part-ii/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+eveonlinenews24+%28Eve+News24%29

      Would be interesting to see Hans' detailed minutes later on but I suspect this is what he is alluding to?

      Delete
    10. @Powers - In your own words.

      "Goonswarm has been planning the unlimited forever wars since before Inferno came out. Unfortunately CCP has broken it for us. Our goal was to have everyone in empire wardecced to us in some form or fashion. Jade just broke it for us :(. Now we can't be at war with everyone. I said in her thread there would be no way to demoralize us or win. Jade actually won. The goons committed to highsec warfare were about the size of a medium (player count) highsec merc corps. This is a shame really. Jade once again has ruined everyone's fun. Small gang was once again within our grasp, and she had to shit all over it."

      Comment located here: http://mabricksmumblings.blogspot.com/2012/06/d-day-plus-four-war-rules-change.html#comment-form

      (Sorry to post a link to my blog in yours Jester, but this needs reference to be taken as fact and not troll.)

      Delete
  5. Even though the conspiracy theories are (as is usual for conspiracy theories) implausible, one can't help but notice just how fast things got fixed when it was the Goons whining that the rules of the game were making things unfair for them, rather than lots of other people whining about the Goons.

    Whether this particular exploit (if we can call it that) was so much worse than the others that it required so fast nerfing, or whether it's just a simple case of the squeaky wheel getting the grease (the Goons are going to be noticed even if CCP isn't trying to help them), once again the Goons win part of the meta-meta-game.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Sad really that Wardecageddon didn't last as long as Hulkageddon. I would literally pay to see the faces of those huge alliance leaders.

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  7. "In the first 48 hours of this unexpectedly massive "foreverwar", the Goons started losing ships at a hysterical rate. Suddenly realizing that they had a tiger by the tail and finding that they couldn't cast off the mutual war chains linking them to The Star Fraction without using the new surrender mechanics, the Goons did something rather un-Goon-like. They panicked. Some, in fact, would say that they whined. In a game that historically has consequences -- most of them bad -- they tried to make the case that this was a consequence that CCP did not intend. Consequences are bad, right?"

    This for me would be the best part of the blog.

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  8. i was under the false impression both sides had to agree in order for a war to be "mutual" (aka free. at least i hope the RvB is free)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You were not. your impression is about right but there is no extra "yes i want this war mutual too" button.

      If you declare war on an enemy you pay your fee. if he decides "ok I like this war" he clicks "mutual" and it is mutual since both want that fight.
      That are the consequences of wardecing someone. He can always decide to drag you in an endless war and push you towards the cliff.

      Delete
  9. awww. I was just beginning to like being the defender for once!

    ReplyDelete
  10. It has nothing to do with Goonswarm. Many highsec war dec groups have been talking about this issue with Alekseyev Karrde since Inferno and he's been actively talking to CCP about these issues assuring us they were well aware of the issues and were going to make modifications. With the upcoming summit there was really no reason for us to begin starting tons of threadnaughts about things we KNEW were going to be fixed.

    Next, after the CSM summit, he let us know that CCP was really receptive and we could expect many of these changes over the next few weeks or so. This has nothing to do with the sudden threadnaught or Goonswarm and everything to do with the CSM working as intended.

    There are still TONS of things broken with the war dec system that haven't been posted on the forums. Why? Becuase theres no point since we know they're going to be fixed and theres no point in creating drama or whinefests.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Efforts to prevent and later fix the intellectual abortion that is an unlimited ally system to power the "mercenary market" (when it is in fact killing said mercenary business) have been going on since https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1323006#post1323006

    This entire situation has nothing to do with Jade Constantine and nothing to do with Goonswarm. If you believe that, you're either uninformed, fucking retarded, or willfully drama baiting.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh, yet another witty and clueless response by the loser Alekseyev Karrde.

      Hasn't this clown been thrown off the CSM yet? Well... I suppose even the utter morons of Eve need to be properly represented... lol.

      Delete
    2. You would take Constantine over Alek?

      Good lord, eve is fucked.

      Delete
  12. I'd actually argue we had the massive allies thing going first but it was Jade that took it mutual, which is pretty awesome! I thought about that but honestly, I just wanted it over.

    Issler

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  13. Imagine a world where CCP doesn't revert the inferno changes:

    In the short term, goons are trapped in a war with hundreds of allies. Eventually they infiltrate the executor corp, or buy their way out, or pass sov to a new alliance somehow. As a new steady state of affairs, the goons completely stop issuing wardecs, stay in null completely, and form hundreds of high sec alt corps and do ten times as much high sec griefing as they used to.

    The other alliances realize that any wardec runs the risk of the other side pulling a goontrap on them, and they all start declaring war only with griefing alt corps as well. In the end, the only wardecs that still occur are with the same small highsec wardec corps that already issue the majority of wardecs, as if they get mutualtrapped they can just dissolve their corp with no fuss whatsoever--and with the alt corps of the larger alliances, modeled in structure after the small disposable wardec corps already in existence.

    Faced with this analysis, perhaps even presented to them by goonswarm, is it any wonder that CCP nerfed the ally system as they did?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or they could have just pressed the "Zhee surrender!" button...

      funny how most people dismiss this idea from their head. Surrender IS an option. And remember we are still arguing about pixel spaceships we RENT for 15$ a month from CCP...

      Delete
    2. OR

      After getting/buying/infiltrating their way out, the goons and other nul sec alliances decide that hisec alliances/corps aren't worth the war dec hassle and either continue to gank and grief as normal, or use alts to form small hisec corps to grief with.

      Suddenly, nul sec happens in nul. Y'know, the way it was meant to be played?

      And as for CCP Soundwave's notion that "you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created." seems like his way of saying that griefing bloggers because their opinions is just fine. It looks like its not just Mittens that hasn't learned about the consequences of in game actions on the outside world.

      I wonder if CCP brass can use a similar hammer on their own staff that apparently feel that using in-game mechanics (war deccing a blogger until they shut down) to affect out of game issues is considered acceptable game play.

      If the ally system has a time limit, then perhaps alliances should as well.

      Delete
    3. That is probaply the kind of answer i would expect from a game device.
      Interestingly CCP Soundwave takes a more philosophical stance.

      Quote Soundwave:

      ... you're trying to add some measure of fairness into wars, which Isn't really a design philosophy in EVE."

      "Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE ....."

      The keywords are "balance" and "fairness" ..... and thats why the controversy about a small war.dec issue makes my mind spin on a topic that has no practical implication for my own eve-account. :)

      Delete
  14. It's too bad that this got changed. Was enjoying the epic trail of goon tears. Guess you don't need a fancy CSM title next to your name to influence CCP.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Goons. Dishing it out but can't take it. No real news there. Probably put in an exploit petition since the other ships had guns and weren't in hulks.

    ReplyDelete
  16. @Jester - Surprised that you didn't comment on CCP Goliath's attempt to censor the forum thread on the ally changes.

    Seems he is a bit overly touchy about any accusations of possible collusions of Team Super Friends and Goonswarm. He even locked the thread for a while, just because he couldn't delete the posts fast enough.

    Sounds pretty fishy to me. Besides, everyone knows that CCP SoniClover is a Goon and a "super friend" of Mittens.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Stupid CCCP... they cave in to the goons

    For once their d!ck is in the guillotine and of course they cry. Now CCP goes down like a fairy from heaven and does THIS... crappy sh!t

    ReplyDelete
  18. It's a pity that this experiment will end soon. I understand the point of fighting a "mutual" war without allies but there still seems to be the problem of "balance" in wardecs. Even those who want to fight high sec wars won't wardec goons too often since it is damn expansive.

    When Germans rush through Belgium that is like 9000 vs 100 but in EVE there is an "all mighty" Concord who sanctions wars. The wardec cost formula should really take the balance in count. Or just as easy as "the biggest player in this war defines the cost" so if ther is a fight 300 vs 500 it doesn't matter who attacks the cost will be those for fighting 500.

    But it remains a shame that the big guys are "protected" by the huge cost that come with them to declare war on them. I'm not a fan of "moar tears" and all those high sec war decers but they should be able to do there fun against all not only the small ones. (the small ones have i hard enough to live in this blob warfare environment)

    ReplyDelete
  19. "the Goons did something rather un-Goon-like. They panicked. Some, in fact, would say that they whined."

    Can you link a single such instance? Apparently it's loud enough to blog about so I hope it's a good few, even.

    "they tried to make the case that this was a consequence that CCP did not intend"

    Where?

    "Turns out, the answer is "no". CCP has blinked"

    You've twisted the words to make it seem like they're reacting a situation that doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because no one has whined about the allies against GSF.

    "The mutual war-dec had only been active for about three days and these two changes neuter it"

    Actually, allies dog-piling onto GSF wars has been happening since Inferno hit, which is a little over 20 days behind us now. Jade is assigning claim to his own measures, and you're just eating his shit without thinking.

    "The lofty position of a 9000-member alliance war-dec'ing a 100-member alliance -- and to get out of that war whenever they want to -- seemed to have been re-secured"

    You're not wrong, but the issue isn't what is costs for GSF to wardec someone, because they're going to do that anyway. This is a change to stop people dogpiling onto EVERY war in the neocom, which is exactly what is happening to EVERY war, not just ones against GSF. My corp managed to pull in 25 allies to "fight" a 15man corp that wardecced us, for no cost. That was completely stupid.

    "Did Mittens pull out his vaunted CCP Rolodex and start making phone calls? That's certainly what a lot of people seem to believe"

    No, there is literally one person making that claim. There's one person parrotting it onto a blog without thinking, however.

    "the thread is up to 21 pages already, and it's growing at about a post every two minutes"

    It's telling that there are literally (go count) about 4 people (including an NPC corp alt) who actually speak against this change -- but by god are those 4 people noisy, and it's 80% Jade.

    Basically Jester you've picked up on the endless whine and tinfoiling of Jade and you've made it seem like the playerbase at large are rising up against Goon bias, which is exactly what Jade wants people to infer.

    Well done on being so naive to his intentions you made this post.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you're reading something into the post that's decidedly not there. I think one of the earlier comments hit it on the head: people rushed in to kill Goons in a relatively low-risk environment. An anti-Goon sentiment definitely exists in the EVE player base. If you want to read an anti-Goon sentiment into what I wrote, though, feel free. But you're seeing something that isn't there.

      I described the Goons as panicking and whining. And I stand by that. You need go no further than the original thread I posted to see it: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1456632&#post1456632 . Sure, panic and whining isn't the official Goon policy on this. But it's there nonetheless.

      Delete
    2. Khan. Khan. Khan.

      [sarcasm]

      Ripard, of course, needs proof when Hans refutes the ridiculous claims in this post, stating that this issue was in the pipe to be fixed well before any of this Jade Constantine/tinfoil-hattery shitstorm hit. Ripard needs links and comments from CCP and CSM to verify ... otherwise, without such proof, Ripard must be correct in his assertions.

      But for you to ask Ripard for proof and links of his pie-in-the-sky claims? This is not how this works, Khan. Ripard doesn't supply the proof. He's dead-on-right until definitively proven otherwise.

      [/sarcasm]

      Delete
  20. The sad part is everything wrong with the Inferno changes were pointed out to CCP when they where on the test server. CCP didn't listen again. Most arrogant developers ever.

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  21. A dumb post, and uninformed. Honda Accord and White Rose Conventicle did the same thing - giving out free wardecs on GSFS - for weeks before Star Fraction did (we only recently got around to deccing them).

    GSF enjoys having as much of hisec red as possible. I expended no political effort, nor do I give a shit, about this change - a context your post lacked which puts his bleating in a most hilarious light.

    If I could push a button and have everyone in hisec at war with GSF, I would do so in half a heartbeat. If you use two brain cells, you would know this is true. Jade claims repeatedly that there are "GOON TEARS ZOMG" about the Inferno changes, but never produced any evidence of these.

    In sum, Jade is dumb, and you are dumb for listening to him. Try to contact sources next time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Proving once again that I can go from being a Goon fan-boy to being dumb and uninformed at the drop of a hat. ;-)

      Delete
    2. GSF enjoys having as much of hisec red as possible. I expended no political effort, nor do I give a shit, about this change - a context your post lacked which puts his bleating in a most hilarious light.

      Really?

      Suppose a mechanic were introduced-- I proposed one over on Mabrick's blog-- that would make it so that everybody could gank Goonswarm (and some others) in highsec without fear of reprisal from CONCORD.

      Are you telling me that GSF would be happy with this?

      Personally, I think it would be for the best. Right now, the CONCORD mechanics actually favor suicide gankers, given that they've accepted that what they're doing is suicide. Even if somebody else sees a bunch of GSF catalysts showing up in a system with a mining fleet, there's nothing they can do about it other than run and hide. If they gank a hulk, CONCORD kills them. But, defenders of the mining fleet can't pre-emptively destroy the attackers, or those defenders will be punished by CONCORD.

      What I proposed was that there be some sort of "corporation security status". It would be based on how many members of the corp had done things that would lower their sec status in high and lowsec in the last (say) few months. (Without option for repair; we're interested in PvP here, not people willing to grind so that they can take advantage of the CONCORD shield to suicide gank.) If a corp has a low corporation security status, then CONCORD will not protect them. They can still fly in highsec based on their own security status, but anybody can attack them without fear of reprisal from CONCORD, and without fear of loss of their own security status. This would allow people who wanted to protect mining fleets against gankers to have a fighting chance. It doesn't completely hand things over to them, for the same reason that protecting mining fleets in null is difficult-- it's easy to kill a hulk. But at least it would mean that the gankers wouldn't fly through highsec with impunity, and would give those who wanted to defend against the gankers a fighting chance. It would also make a lot more sense given what CONCORD is supposed to be doing.

      I'm guessing, however, that a lot of folks in GSF (who love being able to be the bullies with CONCORD watching their back until they decide to pull the triger) would whine a lot about how unfair this change is.

      Delete
    3. Yes, it's called "fact checking". When you do it with a graph and do you homework, your work is solid.

      When you swallow down Jade Constantine's idiocy without realizing that Honda and WRC had been doing the same thing for weeks, and that the only novelty of this situation is that Jade vomited up a bunch of lies putting him in the center of a drama in a bad eve-o thread, you become dumb and uninformed.

      Delete
    4. Careful there Jester, next thing you know you will be declared public enemy #1 with price on your head. Mittens doesn't forgive or forget about bloggers who declare openly what they think about his asshattery. It would be a shame if this blog will suffer the same fate.

      Delete
    5. "If you use two brain cells..."

      Well, I guess that's all Mittens has left after all of the alcohol he has consumed.

      Delete
    6. "If I could push a button and have everyone in hisec at war with GSF, I would do so in half a heartbeat. "

      You should open the CCP rolodex and ask them to implement this change.

      Delete
    7. "Mittens doesn't forgive or forget"...

      LOL, Mittens didn't even remember what he did at Fanfest, until he saw the videos. What a fool.

      Delete
  22. On top of excoriating you for a foolish, unresearched, and laughable blog, I now challenge you to back up the following paragraph with, well, anything at all, or issue a retraction acknowledging your lack of basic fact-checking:

    "In the first 48 hours of this unexpectedly massive "foreverwar", the Goons started losing ships at a hysterical rate. Suddenly realizing that they had a tiger by the tail and finding that they couldn't cast off the mutual war chains linking them to The Star Fraction without using the new surrender mechanics, the Goons did something rather un-Goon-like. They panicked. Some, in fact, would say that they whined. In a game that historically has consequences -- most of them bad -- they tried to make the case that this was a consequence that CCP did not intend. Consequences are bad, right?"

    Show me this 'panic' about hisec, show me these tears. Oh wait, they only exist inside of Jade Constantine's posts, which you slurped down without a second thought.

    You got caught with your blogger pants down on this one.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dam dude.

      Sounds like he hit a nerve... Seriously, of all the things wrong in Eve - *THIS* one got fixed in 3 days?

      Man, I am no lover of conspiracies but holy shit that nerf bat was swinging quick!

      My opinions about GS/Goons/GF/Goonwaffe/whatever have changed a lot in the last 4 years - got a couple friends in goons now. Kind of enjoyed watching Hulkaforevergeddon and Burn Jita. But this seriously smacks of favoritism...

      But wardec'ing people who blog about you (out of game), then the mechanic gets changed when it goes against you?

      Jesus, I wish Eve University could have gotten war-decs' changed so fast...

      Delete
    2. Then ask CCP to change it back to what it was. And come and play in high sec for a while... :)

      Delete
    3. The only one who routinely goes around with his pants down is Mittens.

      Guess it makes it easier to take a piss, after drinking yourself stupid in public, eh?

      Delete
    4. Check the thread I linked to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1456632&#post1456632

      There's ample evidence of Goon whining. If you want to control the narrative on this, start with your own people.

      So far as I can see, the only difference between Jade and the other foreverwar targets is that Jade is apparently successfully fighting back, and is not disappearing from the game and taking his opinions into the abyss with him. Unlike -- say -- White Rose.

      Let's hope that some of these people aren't off killing themselves IRL, shall we?

      Delete
    5. "Sounds like he hit a nerve... Seriously, of all the things wrong in Eve - *THIS* one got fixed in 3 days?"

      HOLY FUCK!! It didn't get fixed in three days.

      Dogpiling has been happening for three weeks, since day one that Inferno was released. (And apparently some people in the CSM knew it was going to happen before Inferno was released and informed CCP of what was going to be the result of the current ally system.)

      So no, this did not get fixed in three days. CCP and CSM have been discussing it for three weeks.

      Delete
    6. Is that three "whole" weeks? As opposed to most fixes in Eve, which take three years (or more)?

      Dogpiling has only been happening to one aggressor. There isn't much doubt who raised the flag, started the whining, and pushed for the fast fix.

      And, for the record, CSM didn't inform CCP of squat before Inferno was released. They fully endorsed the original wardec changes and were remarkably silent in the forum discussion thread, linked from CCP SoniClover's original devblog on the Inferno changes to the wardec mechanics, where the ramifications of the new mechanics were brought up, discussed, and subsequently entirely ignored by SoniClover.

      Delete
    7. Give it up Mittani.

      People warned about defenders locking attackers into a war when Inferno was still in beta. Even going as far as providing an example of the 'dog-pile' scenario. CCP dismissed such scenarios as 'edge cases' then and even said it was a risk attackers would have to consider.

      A few days after Goons and TEST become the victim of many entities joining in on the war (a result of sharing how you think they should be playing in the sand box - again, your fault) and flat out embarrassing you guys, just days after... CCP announces the 1.1 patch.

      The entire things wreaks of favoritism. It really looks like CCP is bailing you guys out. Don't be mad at all of us, be angry at CCP for bringing the patch out at all.

      Also CCP presenting 1.1 patch as a so called fix for the merc market place is pretty weak. Even if that is the true intent, it will not fix it at all.

      Anyways, good luck with your space empire and better luck next time. You lose.

      P.S. - I really can't be bother to do through the process of registering at this website to tag my name to this post. Does it even matter?

      Delete
    8. "I now challenge you to back up the following paragraph with, well, anything at all, or issue a retraction acknowledging your lack of basic fact-checking"

      Wow, Mittani tears. Who'd have thought?

      Delete
  23. Goons whining about being vulnerable in HS is hilarious (need more links).

    However, it clearly shows that inferno 1.0 wasn't balanced and you forgot to mentioned that the new patch will allow smaller corp to wardec big corp by capping war fees to 500mil.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ''Goons whining about being vulnerable in HS is hilarious (need more links).''
      That's the point, there are no links. It's made up. We were giddy with excitement at the prospect.

      Delete
    2. See the EVE-O thread I linked to. At least until the Goons in question are ordered to delete their posts there.

      Delete
    3. You keep saying, "just read the EVE-O thread", instead of providing actual references to specific statements. This is because you're hoping no one reads the 30 page thread and sees that your depiction of it is contrary to reality. The goons in it aren't whining, they're making fun of everyone else, as usual.

      The only thing I can't figure out is whether this is intentional propaganda on your part, or whether this just hit an emotional blind spot of yours. It's definitely well below your usual standards.

      Delete
    4. I read that thread (mostly), and the posts from Goons can be summed up with two statements.
      1) It's retarded to have a game mechanic that lets everyone who wants to pile into any mutual war to do so for free and forever.
      2) We still like it.
      In contrast, in the thread Jester linked, Jade Constantine has approximately 106 posts. Out of 589 Total posts. So 18% of the posts in a thread are by the guy who hates this change and Goons are the ones "whining"? Really? Joker, you are off your meds. I suppose you deserve whatever happens to you.

      Delete
    5. I read a good amount of that thread and I didn't see any of this 'panic'. This blog post reeks of tinfoil hattery which is pretty disappointing coming from you.

      Delete
  24. Several things bear mentioning.

    The Goonwar against Jade Constantine was intended by the Goons as a forever war. The goal was to either drive him from Eve Online altogether or to shut him up through in game griefing and intimidation. First they would wear down and destroy his highsec alliance through constant harassment. Subsequently they planned to isolate him in game by maintaining the Goon wardec on him and any Eve player corporation or alliance that would have him.

    This is not game-play. This is harassment.

    The same sort of harassment was applied to White Rose Conventicle who has since left game and shut down her blog. She was targeted for speaking out against The Mittani on her blog during the CSM election and the Alliance Panel debacle.

    Mabrick of Mabricks Mumblings and his four person corporation is likewise under a Goon wardec for having the temerity to give his opinions about The Mittani in an out-of-game blog.

    Again, the goal in all these cases is not to acquire isk or territory, good fights or any other usual in-game reward, but to leverage Goonswarm's large membership and vast wealth to harass and bully targeted individuals.

    As of this writing, the Jade's allies 'dogpiling' Goonswarm do not come close to matching Goonswarm's numbers. In fact, most of them have no presence in nullsec and are not a territorial threat to Goonswarm.

    What they have done is remove the presumption of safety from highsec for Goonswarm.

    Given The Mittani's recent Ten Ton Hammer screed on that vey subject, it is ironic that Jade Constantine is forcing the Goons to live out the Mittani's highsec vision; but from the point of view of the hunted rather than the hunter. Seems the Goons war on highsec assumed they'd be able to leverage the very presumption of safety Mitten's so recently decried.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Mabrick of Mabricks Mumblings and his four person corporation is likewise under a Goon wardec for having the temerity to give his opinions about The Mittani in an out-of-game blog."

      If you're discussing the game in a blog, it is NOT an out-of-game blog. You've made yourself part of the meta-game, and you bear responsibility for what you say and do and must accept the consequences.

      Delete
    2. Poetic you have a point which I'll gladly accept but I think even you'll agree that Deccing people out of the game becuase you don't like what they say seems a bit.. excessive..

      Not only that but its damaging to the community of bloggers of which you are a part. And I think its hurting both the game and the image of the game at a time when CCP can ill afford either in my opinion.

      I enjoy reading quite a few Eve Blogs, yours and Jerster's more than the others, and would hate to see folks like you guys stop blogging becuase some jerk-stick with a 9000 dood corp as his back takes 'offense' to what you say.

      Delete
    3. Mord, Mord, Mord....how much stupid can be packed into one comment is amazing....

      Regarding harassment...sorry buddy better read the EULA and ToS, not in there. As long as it is in game "griefing" it is not harassment and CCP will do nothing.

      The same sort of harassment was applied to White Rose Conventicle who has since left game and shut down her blog.

      Not harassment, at least not according to the EULA and ToS.

      Mabrick of Mabricks Mumblings and his four person corporation is likewise under a Goon wardec for having the temerity to give his opinions about The Mittani in an out-of-game blog.

      As Poetic Stanziel noted, if it is discussing the game it is part of the metagame, and thus fair game.

      Again, the goal in all these cases is not to acquire isk or territory, good fights or any other usual in-game reward, but to leverage Goonswarm's large membership and vast wealth to harass and bully targeted individuals.

      Welcome to New Eden, now HTFU.

      As of this writing, the Jade's allies 'dogpiling' Goonswarm do not come close to matching Goonswarm's numbers. In fact, most of them have no presence in nullsec and are not a territorial threat to Goonswarm.

      This is precisely why Goons don't really care and haven't complained en-masse (unless we go for the tinfoil hat theory they deleted the mass whining).

      What they have done is remove the presumption of safety from highsec for Goonswarm.

      Yeah, and I see very little whining. Oh yes, I know, they deleted all the whine posts.

      Given The Mittani's recent Ten Ton Hammer screed on that vey subject, it is ironic that Jade Constantine is forcing the Goons to live out the Mittani's highsec vision; but from the point of view of the hunted rather than the hunter. Seems the Goons war on highsec assumed they'd be able to leverage the very presumption of safety Mitten's so recently decried.

      Right...now tell us again how the Solar/Legion of Death war was nothing but a slap fight....

      Goons don't give a crap how many war targets they have in hi sec. Most spend 99% of their time in Null anyways.

      And no, I'm not in GSF, but I do spend 99% of my game time in null sec. Hi sec is too damn boring. When I am there it is for personal logistics.

      Poetic you have a point which I'll gladly accept but I think even you'll agree that Deccing people out of the game becuase you don't like what they say seems a bit.. excessive..

      Join a NPC corp. Can't dec those. Move to null sec far away from Goons, or low sec. There are still God forsaken places in New Eden where one can reside where most will likely ignore you. For example, find an alliance in Stain and move there. Hard to reach, back end of nowhere where you can run missions, rat, run reactions, etc.

      Or sell your character and buy a new one. That one is a bit extreme, but is an option.

      As for shutting down a blog...Christ what kind of wimp do you have to be to do that? Hell, I'd be proud that someone/Alliance are that annoyed with me that they felt they had to hunt me all over New Eden.

      Delete
  25. Jade never could come up with a reason that Goonswarm had for being afraid of them. Leastwise, if they had found a reason for Goonswarm to be afraid of their alliance of 1-man "ally" corps they could never muster the strength to share it with their own thread.

    Personally, I'm shocked that you actually took Jade's threads on face value and somersaulted over the dozens of posts by GSF member in that very thread egging them on. War with Empire space has been a goal for as long back as I can think of while being a member of the GSF so it would be rather poor puppetry to pull the strings on our supposed pet CCP devs to have a change made to the wardec system that would prevent us from reaching that Ragnarok esq state of foreverwar.

    Also, your statement that "In the first 48 hours of this unexpectedly massive "foreverwar", the Goons started losing ships at a hysterical rate. Suddenly realizing that they had a tiger by the tail and finding that they couldn't cast off the mutual war chains linking them to The Star Fraction without using the new surrender mechanics, the Goons did something rather un-Goon-like. They panicked." earns you what such prize journalism deserves

    [citation needed]

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "... and somersaulted over the dozens of posts by GSF member..."

      Goons routinely troll the forums, and provide very little valid feedback or contribution, relative to the sheer amount of spam and flames. Most of us now filter out or block any posts by the GSF, because it is mostly noise.

      In light of this fact, it is difficult to take *any* forum response by a Goon seriously and it really does hurt their credibility. Something Mittens might want to take a look at someday.

      Delete
    2. "In light of this fact, it is difficult to take *any* forum response by a Goon seriously and it really does hurt their credibility. Something Mittens might want to take a look at someday."

      Right, because he's soooo unhappy with the current situation where he and he alone is seen as the voice of the goons. Rofl, you really did hit the crack pipe hard today didn't you?

      Delete
    3. You *are* talking about the drunken moron who managed to get himself kicked off the CSM, right? The one who made cracks about RL suicide at Fanfest, and even admits that he was so drunk that he didn't remember making those statements the next day?

      You take this guy seriously? Damn. Who is the one hitting the crack pipe here?

      Delete
    4. Well, clearly it's you tripping the white fantastic, as I never said anything about whether I take him seriously or not, and you have hallucinated that I did. Stop on by and I'll haldol you back down to earth, y'hear? :)

      Delete
  26. Yes Jester, it has nothing to do with any allies signing on to help also being locked into a foreverwar on the whims of the defender as well (that they can't exit either), does it?

    Did you actually even look into what the arguments were before publishing this peace, or just blindly (or willingly) jump onto Jade's drama train?

    ReplyDelete
  27. 2 weeks is too short.

    make it 4 weeks....some one wardecks you you get to ally up and hurt em for 4 weeks.

    2 weeks is nothing and not even worth setting up allies.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Generally Im rather impartial when it comes to Goons, but in this case I cant help but think that CCP finally had a way to seed widespread change in EVE and they blew it. I do not see why the balance of power had to rest so heavily with the aggressors. While the response to this wardec was obviously well beyond the scope that CCP envisioned, lets not discredit the Goons ability to make enemies shall we. Its not like every war-dec would devolve into this massive of a conflict, as fun as that would be.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Let's assume CCP indeed implement the proposed changes (as it does appear to be the case). What prevent Jade Constantine to keep selling a free wardec against goons?

    I mean, this goon<->SF wardec is already mutual. All he would need to do is to create an alt corp, make it join SF (thus inheriting the wardec), leave SF, then keep joining and leaving any number of privateer-like alliances (either for free or not).

    Of course, each would be tracked as a different wardec by the game, but it is not like those alliances care who else are on their side. They just want the targets. Also, this is only possible because it was the goons who declared it, thus it was up to Jade to make it mutual.

    ReplyDelete
  30. The problem here is one of timing. Players have been asking for these changes to the allies system for literally months, ever since the first Dev blog about it after fanfest. CCP SoniClover was told this would happen to the Merc market, and dismissed it. He was told that an attacker could get trapped into a war with a defender getting unlimited allies and dismissed that with the argument that going into war should have "risks". So this has been known to be a problem since day 1, and wasn't considered one by CCP... until it happens to the Goons. It all just smells too bad for most people.

    Interestingly for those that didn't follow the original thread on these changes this whole "you pay for targets" argument that Soundwave used, well that is a line CCP SoniClover used in the original thread, but he didn't come up with it either. After weeks of people asking why CCP wanted to go with a war pricing system based on member size, with no response from SoniClover, some other players started to give that answer in post. Then after they floated it, bam, Soniclover comes into say "your paying for targets". It really looked like CCP had a system in mind, that they couldn't openly justify to the players (I.E. to shield large alliances from nuisance wars) and used the first player derived excuse that fit..

    But here's the thing, I'm not wearing the tinfoil. I don't think bat-phones where used, and the CSM is not being controlled by Mittens. Bias does not have to be a "conspiracy", but I think there is bias. CCP has repeatedly shown that they have an inability to view their game from anything outside of large 0.0 alliances. That's just how they view all game mechanics. Taken with the other CCP trait of being fanboys to whomever the cool kids on the 0.0 block is (just happens to be Goons now) and you get messes like this. IT's not a "conspiracy" that CCP views most things from the point of view of Goons (or anyone else), it's just 0.0 fanboyness.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "So this has been known to be a problem since day 1, and wasn't considered one by CCP... until it happens to the Goons"

      See, the thing is, you're eating the shit that is the pre-text in Jade's posts.

      Goons/TEST didn't whine about this. At all. No where. In fact, they WELCOMED the incoming wardecs.

      It was also an "issue" for GSF from literally day one as the allies piled on in the other wars GSF had outgoing.

      It's Jade who is telling Goonswarm that they had a problem with it, not the other way around. It's batshit insane, is what it is.

      The reason the change was reneged is because the dogpiling happened not only to GSF, but to every single person who started a war, large or small. Mercs were out of a job totally because the same 20-30 corps just joined EVERY war possible. Literally, this is what happened.

      You can take your "bias" and go try work out what it really means, because this change is a change AGAINST what GSF would want if they could have their way.

      Delete
    2. You seem to have misunderstood my post. By "day1" I was referring to the original Dev Blog about the proposed war changes months ago. People had been telling CCP (SoniClover) that the defender pile on was bound to happen to attackers since just after fanfest. So I'm not "eating the shit" from Jade, I frankly don't care for the fellow and don't buy all his crap. In the original pre-launch discussions about this CCP was of the opinion that if defenders piled on, tough. Take that into consideration before you declare war. Thats why it's "smells bad" when suddenly CCP goes back on that right after this mess starts.

      Like I said, I do not believe in the "Goon conspiracy". I do believe CCP views the game through the lens of large 0.0 blocks, and that happens to currently line up with the Goons more times than not since that's just how they view the game

      Delete
  31. Oh, I would also like to point out that we can in fact have both a strong merc market, and the Jade system of defenders helping against certain enemies. Just put the damn treaty system in game CCP! Get in over your head in a war, hire the mercs (only allow say 1 or two defenders to join after a war or price scaling). Want to protect your small group from goons, sign a treaty before hand saying you all will help and what the specifics of that help are.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Hey Mittens.. You mad,brah?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No, he's just plastered, as usual.

      Delete
  33. Since CCP is turning the ally rules on thier head so completely I'm sure that CCP is giving current mutual War DEC's the option of quitting the war with no costs on the date of the rule change?

    ReplyDelete
  34. I think that the bigger issue is the perception that CCP is catering to the Goons. True or not, far too many of the changes to the game, in the last couple of releases & updates, seem to be ones which were either proposed by The Mittani, or appear to benefit only the larger alliances, of which the Goons are the most visible and vocal.

    Someone else pointed out that one of the CCP devs was actively censoring forum posts which suggested a conspiracy, while vehemently denying such a conspiracy existed. Well, as we all know, this isn't exactly the best way to convince anyone of your innocence.

    Do the CCP devs really want to crash and burn their own game? No, I rather doubt it. They would be putting themselves out of a job, after all.

    Is there some favoritism going on, however? Yes, it would appear so, as self-destructive as this might eventually seem.

    Some of the CCP senior staff simply appear to have gotten caught up in the metagame and have lost objectivity, and this doesn't bode well for the company and the game. After all, tailoring your product to a small minority of your customer base really isn't a smart business plan.

    ReplyDelete
  35. CCP moves real quick when their pet GOON's get a bitch slap do they not? Bias is Bias is Bias any way ya slice it.

    When CCP takes their balls out of the collective 0.0 purse i may one day think about giving them money again.

    The actions of the Goons at large are quite a thing to behold most of the time. They sure as hell get things done. I am also quite sure they have a great time doing what they do.

    What i will not pay to experience is CCP running this game like cunts. Perhaps having design leads in bed with the largest alliance in the game a bad thing?

    Clearly the people running CCP are fine with loosing subs because they can not separate the EVE church from the EVE state. CCP needs to police their people internally in a big way and start strapping people to chairs and doing the sledgehammer meets soft body parts incentive program to keep your employee's noses clean.

    The smell of this way rotten from a very long way out. And btw folks.... their are no such things as coincidences.

    ReplyDelete
  36. I'm disappointed Jester, this is certainly not up to your usual standards.

    The Goonies are cowards and hypocrites, and it will be their own actions which kill them off for good - attributing a quasi-fictional and quite honestly sensationalist story to Jade Constatine of all people smacks of bad journalism. I've been actively involved in the highsec war vs goons, and I'm yet to see the 'hysterical' rates of ship loss that your article suggests.

    Perhaps if we all organised into a cohesive group for once and invaded Deklein, we could deal some real damage and maybe take some of their precious technetium holdings. I know 'ANTI-GOON-ALLIANCE' recruitment threads pop up three-a-penny in CAOD, but how hard can it be to rally against a group of asinine morons who are out to wreck our game?

    Until then, it's just idiotic (and plain wrong) to say that this mutual wardec system (apparently now fixed) has affected one of the largest and most powerful entities in New Eden in any meaningful way.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Every time someone says something bad about Goons there is always accusation of bad journalism and such. Jester has a right to voice his opinion about things and he is not a journalist that you can cower into submission by lame accusations, you Nazi-wannabee pricks.

      Delete
    2. I really couldn't give a damn about the Goons, they're a bunch of nerd lowlifes who want to ruin EVE.

      Jester has every right to voice his opinions, this is his blog (and a damn good one)!

      What concerns me is when it appears that his opinions have been based on untruths, because then it becomes problematic and in this case, plain wrong.

      I read this blog for a good, balanced view on the state of EVE Online and it's certainly provided (bar this article).

      Delete
  37. Goon ship losses at a hysterical rate? Got km's to back up that claim eh Jester? Didn't think so. Just another on the long list of uncorroborated and unverified "facts" in this blog. It's a shame as usually you put the effort in.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Well they lost a 9 Billion ISK jump freighter laden with moon minerals on the first day of the war ... Jade's dogpile is winning by a 10 to 1 margin. It is quite hysterical.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Last nite saw the war board. Goons with 40 kills honda accord with 340. Goons loss 17 bill to 1 bill of honda. Yeah there is numbers just look it up.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Damn you to hell Jester! Now i've had to extend my lunchbreak to digest all these tears...

    YOU DA MAN :-)

    ReplyDelete
  41. I'm a member of Goonswarm. I literally didn't know about this entire situation until I read this blog. That is how little this wardec situation affected our members - we didn't even know it was going on.

    There were no posts on the goon forums about this, no in-game warnings, no chatter in mumble. Want to know why? Because we live in 0.0. Only a tiny fraction of our players spend any significant time in high-sec. I know that it sounds arrogant to say that this situation was beneath our notice, but it really didn't affect the alliance in any way, shape or form.

    So to hear reports that somehow Goonswarm was whining about these wardecs, that we were complaining to Devs, and that they were crippling our operations - all over a wardec dog-pile that was a complete non issue is absolutely preposterous.

    If anyone has followed the goals of Goonswarm, you know that we would love to shoot as many high-sec dwellers as possible. It is beyond absurd for other players to assume that we would lobby for a change that limits the amount of reds. Yes, Goonswarm has a lot of influence. Yes, we are a large and powerful alliance. However, I want to make it clear that in no way, shape or form did anyone in the alliance other than a couple members give one iota of thought about this entire issue.

    I know that was a lot of words that didn't say much, but this drummed up controversy really boggles my mind.

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    1. If you really didn't know what has been going on until now, then you are a moron, not a Goon.

      More probably, you are just a liar. Don't claim to be a Goon, when you are obviously not one of us.

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  42. "Careful there Jester, next thing you know you will be declared public enemy #1 with price on your head. Mittens doesn't forgive or forget about bloggers who declare openly what they think about his asshattery."

    At this point I am fairly certain that this is exactly what Jester intends. I'm also certain that the Mittani knows that this is what Jester intends. He's not exactly being subtle about it, after all.

    Of course, Jester knows that Mittens knows, but also knows it doesn't matter. The Ministry of Love can't let blog posts like this stand without looking very, very weak, and weakness (real or perceived) is Goon poison.

    What I am less sure about is why Jester is doing this. I mean, I get that he's very goal oriented, and that after deciding not to run for this year's CSM he's probably looking around for goals a little more concrete than "influence CCP for the benefit of the game". But what is it that he actually intends to do once he has obtained the lofty status of Goon Enemy Numero Uno? And yes, there is absolutely, positively, a plan.

    Because I'm just a pirate, I think in terms of ships. And, yeah, I'd love to see a Rote Cappelle v Goons dustup. But Jester isn't me, and he's going to have come up with something far more devious. Mittens isn't stupid (despite what people like to say while the think they can get away with it), and he's probably spent a fair bit of time wondering what it is.

    Me? I'm just reaching for the popcorn.

    But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a pirate.

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  43. @Taurean Eltanin

    Lols ... Rote Kapelle vs Goonswarm would be a hilarious kicking for goonswarm and Mittani knows it. There is literally nothing that Mittani can do to hurt Rote that doesn't involve getting CCP to bend over the table some more and make NPC outposts conquerable and capable of locking people out.

    Mittani is only interested in wardeccing tiny corps and alliances that cannot be a threat to him - thats the gameplan.

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  44. the ottoman empire was in no way a major power on the world stage at the dawn of the 20th. Their army was a joke, and the fact they actually managed to foil both british and russian forces for even as long as they did was miraculous.

    But seriously, they had around 10 percent the industrial strength of britain.

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  45. It's a lot easier to jump to wild speculation and ignore fact then it is to actually use your brain.

    Jade publicized what he was doing. HE put it in CCP's face that he was going to use the new wardec system to dogpile a war with no cost. HE claimed to be doing the TESTING, and showed CCP exactly how the mechanic could be used in a way that CCP didn't intend. HE is respeoncible for the changes coming in 1.1, as is everyone else that used the wardec system int he exact same way.

    Yet, you guys blame someone else. Jade did the exact same thing that the goon who exploited the faction warfare mechanic the other day did, to generate trillions of isk. Now a bunch of poeple are all "it's all goons fault!" That's pretty funny.

    And here you people are, talking about the self absorded Mittani, while behaiving EXACTLY LIKE HIM. Bunch of morons you guys turned out to be.

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