Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Saturday, July 7, 2012

Kill of the Week: Learn what works

I thought it'd be fun to take this week's KOTW from the Alliance Tournament, specifically from this fight between The Veyr Collective and Capital Punishment.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13916297

Just because you're right at the fitting limit for a ship doesn't mean that you've made the right choices.  I've said this before: if you're inexperienced fitting a ship, find examples of the ship as flown by pilots that you respect on eve-kill.net and other kill-boards.  Learn what they did.  Learn what works.  Learn what doesn't work.  This Vargur compromises in all the wrong places because the person that built the ship didn't apply this simple rule.

Worried about cap in a pair of tanking battleships?  Here's a thought: Large Energy Transfers.  Transfer cap back and forth.  That reduces the need for the Heavy Cap Booster.  Removing that and replacing it with a Medium Cap Booster clears a ton of grid.  That allows you to strip the rigs for a stronger defense, or possibly upgrade the guns.  A pair of Vargurs in close cooperation can use paired medium smart-bombs to clear drones.  That clears additional grid for a heavy neut to replace the two mediums.  Do all of this and alternately, that clears enough CPU to keep the 650mm guns, but possibly trade a TE for an additional Gyro (adding 100 DPS).

The thought here was clearly to try to run the Ancillary Shield Booster using native capacitor.  There's nothing wrong with that idea in theory.  I think Vargurs are going to be very important once the 12-man matches start for defensively-minded teams like Veyr's.  There's nothing inherently wrong with that, either.  But you have to play to the ship's strengths, and this fit does not.  Don't try to do everything with one ship... learn a little cooperation.

That's what the Alliance Tournament is all about.

12 comments:

  1. Jester, perhaps you should check out a Vargur's Sensor Strength and then realise why relying on BOTH Vargurs not being jammed in order to cap transfer is a good idea.

    Also, I suspect the X-L ASB was powered by Navy Cap Boosters, with the Heavy Cap Booster there in order to allow for sustained MWDing whilst smartbombing drones. You can downgrade to a Medium Cap Booster, but you still don't gain enough grid for 800mm ACs/a Heavy Neut. Personally, I would have dropped the Semiconductor Rig for another ACR in order to squeeze on 800mms for better projection + DPS, but their fit is valid.

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    Replies
    1. Projected ECCM casters work wonders, and most teams will rely on ECM drones to jam Vargurs in any case. Thus, the smart bombs. Again, cooperation among the team.

      A Vargur-based team will not do well against a heavy ECM team, of course, but the heavy ECM team likely won't have enough DPS to break the Vargurs, either.

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    2. Relying on external ECCM from your frigate hulls is a terrible idea just to keep a cap chain going from a ship which doesn't need it. You're now hoping the enemy team doesn't have any dedicated anti-frigate teams OR an ECM heavy team. They don't even need dedicated anti-tackle - a webbed frigate is easy prey for a Tier3 BC which will volley through their tank with ease.

      A Heavy ECM team will jam out the Vargurs and if they had the fit you suggested, the Vargurs would not be able to cap transfer each other and would cap out fast and therefore die.

      Not mention that if the Vargurs are cap transferring each other, they are effectively giving up their individual mobility in order keep their tanks up, thus allowing the enemy team full rein of positioning if they can put keep one Vargur tackled.

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    3. Sule, he is talking about Projected Eccm between both Vargurs, and for the idea behind what he is talking about look at the match w/ two rattlesnakes.


      [Vargur, New Setup 1]
      Damage Control II
      Gyrostabilizer II
      Gyrostabilizer II
      Tracking Enhancer II
      Tracking Enhancer II

      Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
      Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
      Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
      Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
      Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
      X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

      800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
      Large Energy Transfer Array II
      800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
      Medium YF-12a Smartbomb
      800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
      800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L

      Large Ancillary Current Router II
      [empty rig slot]

      a basic idea.

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    4. Please don't tell me you're actually foolish enough to suggest putting remote ECCM on each Vargur...

      /facepalm

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    5. Projected Eccm is an well accepted module, though I hadn't noticed I fit two on that fit which wouldn't be that great.

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    6. Projected ECCM is a completely valid module - I should know, we use it almost constantly in our Armour HAC gangs. But it's a silly module to use in this case - I'll explain why.

      1) When the match starts, ALL locks get broken (friendly and hostile).
      2) Vargurs lock each other up to put P-ECCM onto each other.
      3) Enemy Griffin/Rook starts to lock your Vargurs up.
      4) Griffins/Rooks have better scan res than your Vargurs, so they lock first and their jam goes off BEFORE the Vargurs can ECCM each other.
      5) Vargurs are not ECCM'd up and hence are perma-jammed by a single racial Jammer by a Rook.
      6) Since they are perma-jammed, they can NEVER put P-ECCM onto each other to try to STOP themselves being perma-jammed.
      7) Congrats, 2 Jammers have now rendered 64% of your team (by points anyway) useless.

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    7. As I sort of mentioned above I wouldn't use two P Eccm, the fit was intended to have an Eccm+P Eccm, I agree that solely P Eccm wouldn't work, but in terms of two vargurs+frigs the Eccm+P Eccm is the way to go.

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  2. Very interesting to see the above discussion between to experienced players :)

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    Replies
    1. No, it's pretty dumb actually. Jester is wrong, again.
      I'm starting to doubt more and more of his opinions and input...

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    2. If you guys think Dsan doesn't like me today, tune in tomorrow.

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    3. First Raiden. then ~A~. I think we all know who has shown poor judgment.

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