Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Monday, July 2, 2012

Quote of the Week: Meta irony^4

I got a kick out of this week's Quote of the Week, which comes from CCP Sreegs:
Telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system.
Uhhh... Sreegs?  Remember a couple of weeks back, when I mentioned that Goons complaining about other EVE players exploiting game mechanics was a weaponized level of irony that could flatten whole cites?

Yeah.  That.  ;-)

Semi-seriously, one of the reasons The Mittani struggled in the role of being CSM Chairman was because he felt he couldn't be both a good Chairman and "a good Goon" which of course means "really good at making other people feel really bad."  So this is a lovely time to point out again that CCP Sreegs is himself a former Goon.  As a result, reading something from CCP Sreegs begging EVE players -- EVE players! -- not to exploit broken game mechanics produced a charming level of meta irony that had me smiling the rest of the day after I read it.

I kind of wonder if Sreegs has the same struggle.

Anyway, the fact that he was essentially addressing this plea to -- you know -- Goons made it that much more delicious.  I can only imagine the level of humor that this is producing on the Goon forums themselves.  Anyone want to copy a few choice examples into the comments?

Just to be clear, we've got about four levels of meta here:
  1. It was Goons that exploited the FW mechanics.
  2. It was a former Goon that had to punish them for it.
  3. It was the same former Goon that then begged current Goons to stop; and,
  4. then begged them to -- rather than be Goons -- to instead tell him about the next thing they're going to exploit before they exploit it.
tl;dr: "Hey Goons?  *smack!*  Please stop being Goons.  Love, CCP Sreegs."

I'll just leave you alone now to think about that one.  There's some aspirin in the bathroom.


  1. I get the irony, but what is really upsetting, is that there was a need to address them specifically at all. They may not have used names but anyone with a brain knows who that arrow was shot at.

  2. Its sad to see you join the goon conspiracy. The main thing is that Sreegs gets paid by CCP and most of his plans propably rely on working there for awhile. That might be a little stronger then the goons can compete with.

    Sure goons offer tech, forums, kneckbeards for Sreegs to snuggle in, but having to leave iceland would be pretty sad as well though.

  3. And I quote Mittens from a Ten Ton Hammer post of his: [The EVE-Born - http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/spymaster/75]

    “In practice, this (IE Goons being community-born players) means that Goons... ...can be outright bastards to everyone else in the EVE... ...and get away with it. The game’s normal culture of honor doesn’t apply…”

    HONOR DOES NOT APPLY... there he said, it right there... and some people still wonder at Goons bein Goons... Aspirin wunt TOUCH that headache.

  4. There is indeed a delicious similarity between this situation and the situation where you were whining about goons supposedly complaining about others' exploiting some weeks back--but it's the opposite of what you think it is:

    1. When you were challenged to actually provide a concrete link to a goon complaining, you linked to a threadnaught then said you couldn't be bothered to actually link exact quotes because you were too busy to do so--but not too busy to write tons of posts about the issue, of course. Ironic and highly fail evasion on your part, there.

    2. When challenged to define which part of the situation here was actually an exploit, Sreeg gave a definition which was previously not an exploit, as his definition exactly fit the ship insurance trick that worked when mineral prices were lower. When asked to elaborate further on how this current situation was "obviously" an exploit when he was unable to give a noncontradictory explanation, he said he was too tired and would have meetings about it in the morning. I've yet to see a coherent explanation as to why anyone should have viewed this as an exploit and not just a boneheaded CCP system--other than of course the commonsense explanation that anything that makes that level of ISK will obviously be deemed an exploit and reversed.

    With his tongue in his cheek, Sreegs than asked the goons to report it as an exploit first next time, even though it was obvious to one and all that CCP was in fact alerted months prior that their system was bogus, and it was only though the goons using the bug that CCP was impelled to take action. I.e., Sreegs isn't begging the goons to stop being goons, he's telling them the sequence of actions to follow so that he can allow them to keep a few trillion isk the next time they find a loophole like this. This evasion, while still pretty obvious, managed to fool you and most other players, apparently.

    So yes, the delicious comparison is that Sreegs is providing you with an example of how to pull the wool over people's eyes, which you obviously need as your prevarications are blatantly obvious; but that instead of learning from his misdirection you're fooled by it.

    1. You Goons spin so much I'm amazed you can stand let alone walk a straight line.

    2. I'm not in the CFC--not that my identity is relevant in a logical debate, only facts and logic--but if it were relevant, I posted under the name on my driver's license and you posted anonymously. o_O

    3. I'm not the original anon, but I'm going to respond anyway; your identity is relevant if it colours your opinion on the subject being debated. If you are in the CFC then that's going to affect how you view this issue since it can be viewed as a clash between goon culture and CCP/EVE culture.

      As for your original point, Sreegs didn't want to be put on the spot and pony up an opinion on what does/doesn't constitute an exploit that could later on come back to bite him - if he says "X is an exploit because Blah but Y is not an exploit because Blee" in specific details he risks encouraging exploits in the future if a bug starts affecting Y or if bad coding makes Y exploitable. That's basically pretty sensible.

      Fortunately, I'm not Sreegs and don't have my professional reputation on the line, so I can make a simple demarcation between the two situations: The FW exploit was an exploit because it involved market engineering to SPECIFICALLY affect a CCP algorithm, with no regard whatsoever to any players affected. The Goons involved were deliberately looking for items and implants that were of no interest to players in order to raise their value in the CCP algorithm. In comparison, the insurance exploit is made viable because of market effects aimed at other players that incidentally affect the CCP algorithm that sets insurance payout.

      Sreegs did say that in future they might need to look at self destruct insurance payouts and they might become an exploit if so; I'm guessing that would be if something similar happened with players manipulating the component prices specifically to raise the insurance value with no interest in their effects on players, however that's not happened yet (and as it requires manipulating the entire mineral market, even suggesting it is verging on tinfoil-hat country).

    4. Anything affecting a CCP algorithm is an exploit? I'm sorry, but under that definition you can't even log in to EVE without exploiting. Every line of code is an algorithm ~_~ I don't really see a point in continuing this line of discussion, you could keep refining your definition and I could keep poking holes in it, but since you don't work for CCP we wouldn't even have the hope of accomplishing anything.

      "If you are in the CFC then that's going to affect how you view this issue since it can be viewed as a clash between goon culture and CCP/EVE culture."

      Logic is logic, and assuming that reasonable discussion is impossible between people in different cultures is just racism/xenophobia hiding under a cloak of respectability.

    5. Reasonable discussion is certainly possible between people in different cultures. However, the world isn't black and white. It's just as unreasonable to suppose that people are not going to have their views and instincts at the very least influenced by the culture they come from.

      I know (I've seen it) that members of the CfC who view themselves as more adult are in serious denial about how grieferly and childish their Goon overlords are.

  5. You're mis-quoting Mittens and making a terrible point off the back of it.

    He never said anything about it being difficult being a Goon & leading the CSM, he said it was difficult to *lead GSF* & chair the CSM (and even then, you're overplaying the "difficulty").

    Goon != member of GSF, and Sreegs isn't the latter, and certainly not the leader.

    You're either
    a) Ignorant and shouldn't post or
    b) Willfully biased (and shouldn't post)

    There's no "irony" in any statement made here at all, except what you think you can whip up for page views.


    1. With re: Mittens, see TurAmarth's post above.

      Sreeg's difficulty is in:
      a) telling Goons not to do something that he himself probably would have done a couple of years ago; and,
      b) telling Goons not to do things that MAKE them Goons.

      A couple of years ago, it was GMs telling Sreegs to tell his people to stop putting POS mods in the form of a swastika. Now it's Sreegs having to write those very same dev-blogs. Did he handle it appropriately? Sure. Is there irony in the fact that it was him that had to do it? Hell yes!

      Anyone who doesn't see that is being deliberately obtuse.

    2. So ... like basically whenever anyone moves into a position that effectively manages their former position?

      It's not irony. I suggest you learn the use of the word.

      It's also not really interesting, except for being more "CCP/goons" in the same paragraph that is showing an obvious trend on your blog.

    3. It was interesting enough for you to post on it... mr. obtuse.

    4. Assuming that posting on something proves it to be interesting presupposes that the only reason to post about things is for amusement, i.e., presupposes that the person doesn't care about anything other than his own amusement. Amusingly, this presupposition says much more about you than it does about the intended target of your insult.

    5. Normally I would agree with you 100%. However the comment in question used the "also your blog sucks" argument as a blanket statement to render Jester's point/response moot. While disagreeing with someone is fine (there is a comments section for reasons other than trolls) I find it funny when someone is so willing to abandon their argument and fall back on the logical crutches of derision.

  6. I don't think sreegs was begging anyone. What he did do is clarify that its not cool to abuse the crap out of an exploit before you decide to report it.

    But he/ccp were very careful to avoid using the negative and inflammatory A-word.

  7. In my eyes Screegs didn't do allot of begging, from what I see him do he does alot of banning though.

    He took away all the money and stuff the goons where so proud of and at a certain time wasn't even sure he would give back all the minerals and stuff the goons used to create their LP with.

    The fluttering hearts that gave the "hardcore" goons where priceless to read. They got of light, and they know it.

  8. When do we get to see Darth's take on all this? Hint: It shouldve happened many many posts ago!

  9. I find it gratifying that Screegs is sticking to being a CCP dev looking out for the good of the entire game, rather than being a Goon.


Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.