Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Friday, August 10, 2012

Friction war

Couple of quick notes about my IQ test post from earlier today.

First, I've had a number of people accuse me of screwing up their money-maker.  Please.  ;-)  It's going to be quite a while before CCP addresses this issue, even assuming that they wish to do so.  More on that in a second.  But even if they wanted to address this issue today, how do they do it?  That requires time, thought, game design, and programming, things that won't happen overnight.  It took weeks to correct obvious, glaring problems with high-sec incursions even when CCP knew those problems existed.  Then it took weeks to re-fix them when the first fix didn't work properly.

So yeah, don't worry: your money-maker is safe.

And that assumes that CCP even considers it a money-maker.  Remember, Loyalty Points are an ISK sink, not a faucet.  Those that understand this mechanic can move on to the next paragraph.  Faucets in EVE generate ISK "out of nowhere".  Sinks return that ISK "to nowhere".  When you are paid bounty on a rat, that is a faucet because the ISK wasn't in the wallet of another player.  It's just ISK generated by the game.  LP are a sink because virtually every item bought with LP also requires a substantial ISK payout.  This ISK doesn't go into another player's wallet.  It just vanishes.

CCP in general and Dr. EyjoG in particular have been bemoaning the fact that there is too much ISK in the game for quite some time which is why you're seeing an increasing number of sinks in the game.  The recent addition of the need to purchase data-cores for ISK is a good example.  So I find it very easy to believe that CCP understands how this "LP faucet" works and they want this in play for a while to remove a substantial amount of ISK from the EVE economy.

So that's another reason your money-maker is probably safe.

Even if CCP turned this particular money-maker off tomorrow, though, no need to fret: another equally good money-maker will be along soon.  FW LP is not the first such "gloriously irrational" game design choice resulting in untold player riches and it definitely won't be the last.

Second, I've heard some interesting comments about how this side or that will obviously just "prevent" this sort of farming.  There are two sides, right?  Let's go to commenter and faction warrior Simyaldee, who sums up my response admirably:
Plex Farmers are plexing these systems practically non stop throughout the day. This means that us ACTUAL FW players can't defensive plex anymore because we have no idea how deep the plexing is. Its gotten so bad, people are setting up their own alt corps in opposing militias to bust the bunkers, because its easier (and more profitable) to just replex the system and bust the bunker than it is to actively defend the system.
In other words, if you can't beat them, join them.  It turns out that players in all four factions like ISK and most aren't role-players.  If they can't make ISK with one faction, setting up an Incursus alt is so simple and requires so little time and commitment that there's absolutely no reason not to have one per faction if you're at all inclined to do so.  As one side of any of the four approaches higher tiers, just slip into that faction's alt and farm yourself up some LP, then cash out when that side decides to push to tier 5 for an hour or two.  Easy.  Good comment, Simyaldee!

And thanks to everyone else who's commented on that post so far!


  1. Just about ready to send my alt who was going to do recon in the wormhole out in an incursus and join the fun. it's all good and long live this kind of "goofs" as they keep us all entertained and playing the game so maybe they aren't goofs at all. Thanks for all the posts Jester

  2. Well, true, they aren't particularly quick to correct these kind of features. But when they do get to said features their work involve grabbing the largest sledgehammer they can get their hands on and break said feature to oblivion for a very, very long time.

    So, FW warriors, whether you are this this for the fights or for the quick income, enjoy the time you have, because once they decide to do something about it (and eventually they will) you will be completely screwed as certain as there is day and night.

    1. Breaking plexes would benefit everyone currently in FW who has the ability to see more than 6 months in the future. There is a reason that certain figures in FW are looking for plexes to be severely nerfed.

    2. You have the illusion that CCP will solve the abusive farming without touching the rest of the feature.

      I fully expect them to completely break everything that is good in the FW right now while only mildly dealing with the farming.

      They are simply terrible at implementing solutions for specific problems that don't adversely affect dozens of other things.

    3. No, if they break plexes completely, people stand to make more money. If they break FW completely, the same applies even more.

      Sure I enjoy FW for the fights, but if I'm sitting on 2 million LP when theres no real way to farm more of it, I'm looking at 30-40 Billion ISK.

  3. So, it sounds like this is lucrative enough that you can pay for your FW alt account huh. No wonder we use the same words plex = PLEX.

    1. One FW alt has already paid for all 3 of my accounts through the end of next year. :)

  4. When talking about ISK faucets/sinks I think the best analsys
    was done by CSM Two Step last March:

    which was compiled from CCP Diagoras tweets ( John where are you? has the Icelandic loch ness monster swallowed U up?)
    One thing that was concerning to me is that FW's Tier 4&5 50&75% ISK reductions per item looked to lower the lp ISK sink from 6 trillion over time.
    I didn't though until last week find out that like you said that Datacores now are a NPC buy order & a FW LP store ISK sink. Besides the increased tax are there any more new sinks?

    I'd love to see what two steps' website above would look like with stats for June or July ( I suspect Incursions dropped to 2 trillion & bounties jumped up to ~37 trillion ) which brought about the deflation stated in an editied note on the CSM minutes.


  5. Sweet I got mentioned in a Jester post, my life is complete.

    But seriously...that is an interesting thought Jester, I had never thought about it before as being an ISK Sink.

    However the main problem for FW people is that the vast swarm of 1 day old alts effects our PvP and gameplay as well as our income. Because we cannot dock in systems, the neutral alts prevent EVERYONE from being able take and hold systems (it does not help that their is no insentive LP or otherwise to D-Plex, the reason for which is ironically enough to prevent farming). And also, the Tier Warzone control system means that to boost to the higher tiers the ACTUAL militia organizes LP dumps to upgrade systems.

    And then when that happens is the ARMY of 1 day alts cash in ALL their LP and then sell it off, dropping prices for the ACTUAL militias that busted the bunkers, and at least tried to defend the systems from both the ACTUAL opposing militia and from chasing off 1 day alts.

    The System is supposed to reward PvP, and encourage small scale warfare, unfortunately the system as it is now, as everybody knows, encourages the 1day plex alts, and PvE. Although if you want to PvP 1on1 in small stuff? say Dessies and down or even Cruisers and down if its a good day. This is an excellent theater for it, its just that a LOT of the stuff that you might fight is a 1day alt with a full stab of lows.

    And as I said in the last reply, CCP's solution to this by changing the entire rat system, is over complicated, and most liekly going to be a detriment to PvP, which is what they are supposed to encourage.

  6. The LP system is so easily gamed and exploited, as it stands. It is simple enough to push up to tier 4/5, and cash out - and this is even without the factions actively cooperating (which is coming soon to a FW near you).

    Now that alliances can play FW, too, expect to see everyone with alts on both sides, cooperating to alternately switch to Caldari FW alts, push up Caldari to tier 5, cash out, switch to Gallente FW alts, push Gallente to tier 5, cash out... wash and repeat. Same for Minmatar/Amarr. Soon, everyone will be playing FW, but not for PVP, just to milk the LP.

    Creating new semi-AFK farming opportunities seems to be what the current CCP design team does best. First, Incursions, now FW. Makes me laugh.

  7. Clarification on the creating Alts thing to take bunkers...it's being done for the simple reason that about 35+ systems (in the Minmatar/Amarr war zone, I can't speak for Caldari/Gallente) have been plexed well beyond 100% (some have suggested its has high as 300-500% contested). In other words it's effectively un-defensive plexable. Now Amarr strategy seems to suggest getting as many systems plexed beyond 100% necessary to pull T5 control and roll around in LP generating plexes until a CTA is sounded and all vulnerable systems are steamrolled in one night followed by a push for T5 warzone control with plenty of LP buffer.

    In the good old fashioned EVE pass time of inflicting as much misery on other people as possible, Minmatar militia Bunker busts with Alts under thr Amarr banner and holds on to a critical # of systems and create as much buffer as possible.

    Congratulations to CCP, they've injected enough hatred and animosity into the old time FW players/corps/alliances to last a good while.

    Ps, the "Plex systems well beyond 100%" tactic is getting some flak in the assembly hall. Self interest has me hoping it's addressed to cap vulnerability at 100% with no further LP payout, but I'll be happy if it caps at 100% regardless.

    1. It's maxed out at 200% contested.

      Also don't start blaming that for why your systems have gone vulnerable. Someone in our corp managed to bring a system from 0 to 100% contested by himself. Minmatar haven't dplexed when they had the chance and now they're bitching about how bad they've fucked up.

    2. Wherein the above post is blame assigned?

  8. Amarr will not hit T5 anytime soon as there are not enough systems vulnerable to do it with.

    1. So how did NULLI screw up?

    2. They had enough systems+systems vulnerable to cap to reach T4 max and ended up only capping enough systems to hit 67% at all systems maxed out (T4 in other words).

      Whether or not that was the planned goal all along, or :effort:, I'd imagine only Nulli leadership would be able to answer.


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