Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Wednesday, September 19, 2012

Fearless

Daaaaaammmmmn.  You have to hand it to CCP Fozzie, don't you?

First he -- with his very first dev-blog! -- firmly places both hands on the third rail of EVE economics, technetium.  Now whether you think that response was strong or weak, you have to admit that he handled it fearlessly and deftly.

And now yesterday, in the midst of what was supposed to be a post about cruiser rebalancing, has managed to casually and unintentionally announce that the two most popular EVE PvP ships of all time are both being massively nerfed.

In short, after ticking off pretty much the entire north and west of EVE null-sec, as an encore Fozzie is now ticking off pretty much every PvPer in EVE.  Way to make a name for yourself there, Fozzie.  ;-)

Needless to say, a lot of EVE players have jumped straight to "Let's just take off and nuke the site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  And Fozzie is dealing with it as best he can.(1)  How things will play out, I don't know, but I do have some thoughts about this series of forum posts that I'll publish a little later today in two posts.  Just wanted to let all of you know that I acknowledge that it's happening and I want to give it a little more thought before I bang out a post myself.


(1) One thing he said is going to make a rather hysterical QOTW on Monday.

33 comments:

  1. Getting upset because everyone's favourite ship it getting nerf is just shortsighted. There's a reason they're your favourite ships, and there's a reason they're everybody elses too.

    Personally I think he's doing exactly what's required. In this scenario (battlecruisers) it makes much mores sense to directly nerf the outliers than buff everything else up like they did with the frigs.

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    1. I think you speak too soon.

      Based on the recent changes to the frigs, and the proposed changes to the cruisers, I expect we'll be seeing the BCs, as a class, also getting a serious buff, in order to ensure that they are still better than the new PVP cruisers.

      Fozzie seemed to indicate that the Cane and Drake will get revisited again, when the overall BC changes are made. Likely, any nerfs made, with regards to accommodating the proposed missile changes, will get effectively reversed by the BC changes.

      And, despite Fozzie's stated concern about introducing power creep, he and Ytterbium have been mostly proposing to buff ships across the board.

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  2. Frankly I have heard plenty of PvP'ers say they welcome to changes to Hurricanes and Drakes (& Tengus). On both my alliance forums as on the Molden Heath community forums the majority of responses so far are either positive or 'can totally see why'.

    So I very much doubt "is now ticking off pretty much every PvPer in EVE" holds true.

    And I heard tons of PvP'ers hail the cruiser changes as the second coming of Christ.

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  3. Am a less than 6 month player, just got battlecruiser V. I've been in a C1 wormhole almost exclusively in probing ships and hurricane and now training for a T3 cruiser. Am ok with the hurricane and drake nerf because they were so obviously superior it made it difficult to chose to fly anything else and this will force me to explore other ships. The biggest concern though is everything is now about cruisers especially with T3 and there is no real progression for those who like battlecruisers, only possibly the Sleipner can stand on it's own as a ship to train for, and the T3 Cruisers are far easier and usually superior to get to faster and with cloaks, more versatile.

    In summary this relative noob thinks the changes are good because it makes me get in other ships, the concern is lake of progression in battlecruisers and everyone going to cruisers.

    The other concern I have is lack of progression in nullsec (thank goodness for wormholes right now) as only two mega gigantic allies control it all. Please some new content in the game CCP.

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  4. heh. one knows that i one DOESN'T hear it first from Jester's Trek blog it's got to be big news. lol

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  5. Looking forward to your take on the podcast you did last week.
    Time frame on a response?

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    1. Tomorrow (Friday), hopefully. Been busy with this ship rebalance stuff, and I'm not done yet...

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  6. If I were to choose a QOTW from what Fozz said, it'd definately be this:
    "If it feels like CCP nerfs you a lot that's just a sign that you're doing it right and getting good at staying on top of the best trends so pat yourself on the back."

    I mean, WTF?!

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    1. "If it feels like CCP nerfs you a lot that's just a sign that you're doing it right and getting good at staying on top of the best trends so pat yourself on the back."

      While tongue in cheek, it's pretty much a solid statement. A lot of players are hit by nerfs exactly when they target OP content, because a lot of players are min-maxers riding the wave. What is WTF about it?

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  7. Clueless, not fearless.

    This does not just apply to CCP Fozzie and CCP Ytterbium, but to the Eve players who have been supporting this so-called tiericide rebalancing nonsense, which is actually just a homogenizing of the entire game.

    As long as CCP piddled with frigs and didn't touch everyone's favorite ships, it looked good on paper. But, as predicted in an earlier Jester comment, the shit hit the fan as soon as they started dicking with the ships that veteran players actually do fly.

    Keep in mind, too, that every time CCP has made a major change to the caps & super caps, much rage ensued. And, that was from just the relatively few players who can fly those ships. Let's see what happens when *all* of the BCs get "rebalanced".

    And, as also predicted, CCP Fozzie is homogenizing the weapon systems, as well. Read his OP carefully, and behind the changes to such things as the TEs and TDs, you'll see the goal of making missiles work more like guns. Effectively dumbing them down, so that, as clearly stated by CCP Fozzie, "missiles will act in a way that is more intuitive to newer players."

    CCP's goal here is *not* balance. The goal is to make the game much easier for the DUST players, whom CCP expects to convert into a new Eve player base - incidentally, one which is willing to P2W - thus replacing the existing flat-lined, sub-only no-P2W player base.

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    1. i think that's the quote of the year.

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    2. So homogenization is when CCP balances things so that players want to fly a wide variety of ships with a wide variety of weapon systems, instead of 90% of players flying one of three or four fits of a few ships? (autocannon shield-tanked Hurricanes, PVE fit Tengu, blah blah fit of Drakes)

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    3. @Anon0542 - Nope, homogenizing is when there is no effective difference between flying one ship or another ship, in the same class, regardless of weapons or fit, in any particular situation.

      In other words, using a Drake or Hurricane or Harbinger or Myrmidon, with missiles, guns, or drones, shield or armor tanked, should pretty much be equivalent, for PVP and PVE - with no ship having any particular advantage over any other.

      While this is the simplest way for inexperienced devs to balance the game, it also effectively nerfs the sandbox. Soon, there will be only one standard/optimal fit for each ship, and one standard/optimal way to fly/use it.

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    4. That's the comment of the week.

      Delete
  8. Hurricanes and Drakes - everyone is pissed because "everyone knows" that they are *the* superior battlecruisers. This is demonstrated by their use as doctrine ships and that every elite PvP flies them. That is, by itself, enough to prove that they needed to be rebalanced so that the other battlecruisers would be used in more reasonable numbers. Is this just not obvious?

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  9. I think it's time for a fozzie fanpage!

    Just to think drakes and canes are most used bc's and hm's 7 out of 11 most used med weapon systems... And canes can still do what they're doing now - just not together with other things they can do now at the same time...

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  10. I like Missile disrupton, i dislike its on TiDi's.

    That makes a TiDi a "Must fit" module for pvp, cause u are just weaker when u dont got one.

    A missile Disrutpor would be better imho.

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    1. I've never heard of the Time Dilation (TiDi) module. Must be something new and elite.

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    2. congratz for finding a typo i wrote in the middle of my night timezone \o/

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  11. I think that the problem is the same one which Jester has with the nerf to boosting. Specifically, the fact that players spend months/years skilling up a toon, only to have that effort nuked by callous "balancing" changes.

    For frigs, it doesn't take much time to skill up, so no big deal. But, once you get to the BC level, you are talking about months to get the ship, weapons and ancillary support skills all trained up in order to optimally fly any specific ship.

    One of my corpmates just finished up a rather focused skill plan for the Drake. Needless to say, he isn't too happy about the proposed changes and plans to quit playing if they actually go through. To quote him, "I'm not spending more months SP training for another ship, just to have CCP kick me in the balls again."

    But, I don't think that CCP Fozzie, and most of the other devs, really understand or sympathize with this issue. They are just given their SP, and don't need to actually put in the RL time to skill up.

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    1. Tell your friend that HAM drakes get a significant buff and even the ordinary HM Drake (while having less dmg and range), will get more versatility (free choice of dmg type, tracking computers/enchancers now working with missiles, useful T2 missiles).

      He won't have wasted his SP, he'll just have to adapt and fly a pretty well balanced and fun ship. Actually, i predict that HAM Drakes will be quite popular.

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  12. Don't forget it's not just drakes & canes being blasted into orbit- but our favourite moneymaker the Tengu-an 85 page threadnought so far & counting. Oh dear oh dear oh dear! Lots of very unhappy vets AND new players! Nothing like your livlihood being taken anway with no viable other option! & kinda sucks if you've only ever trained Caldari- well-remember the hybrid nerf? Dock up your drakes & tengus for the next 5 years. 425 canes with neuts? Oh NAUGHTY us! What WERE we thinking?

    Fozzie-you were showing promise-but talk about landing youeself in it mate!

    Unhappy null sec noob trainer :(


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    1. Yeh, if BCs aren't supposed to be fitting full racks of the biggest guns in their size, WHAT IS?

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    2. Drake and Tengu will still be viable. They might be a well balanced ship, they might be average, they might still be slightly above average. No way to tell right now (and really depends on the actual ship balancing yet to come). They most certainly won't be useless.

      Of course, if you are the type of player always hunting/panting for the currently rumoured best ship out there, you will have to reskill for whatever will come out on top (hopefully not by the same margin as the Drake did).

      HTFU, it's not as if it is nerfed into uselessness. I still see myself flying both Drake and Tengu.

      Delete
  13. Oh, yeah, CCP is on a roll....

    Our corp lost a good number of newer players after the wardec changes came out, and we got grief-dec'ced by a larger, higher-SP corp looking for easy KMs. Funny how getting your shiny new T1 frig popped, by a cloaky T2 recon or T3 cruiser, every time you step out of station tends to put you off on playing the game.

    Now, about 1/3 of our corp is planning to quit - mostly because they trained to fly Canes or Drakes for PVP, and, like the man above said, they aren't interested in putting in another 6 months to train up something else.

    Fail, fail, fail.

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    1. If the pilots arent shit, and have trained support skills during these 6months.
      Its a matter of a few days, lets say 4-5d (non re-mapped training) to get into a new BC. And around 10-15 to get access to the other t2 medium sized guns.

      Im not happy about the nerf to neither the drake,tengu nor hurricane.
      Tell "your pilots" to HTFU and give them a set of +3's.

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    2. @Hosi - you forgot the gun support skills. That is a lot of training for Drake pilots to switch from missiles to guns.

      But, in any case, what's the point of training another 2-3 weeks to get into another BC at this point? CCP already has plans to "rebalance" them, as well, within the next year.

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    3. Sure, switching from missile support skills to gunnery is a small pain. But to get decent, or in other words livable gunnery support skills, is not that many days, Since you can live with having them at lvl 4. Atleast so you can do fair dps from the guns.

      And to be frank, once they are done with missileskills, are they just gonna stop training? I don't think so.

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  14. The game will weather this storm as it did when Drone bandwidth introducted as a "buff" (to address lag) actually nerfed Gallente. hmm Drake say hello three heavy drones and a myrmidon - welcome to level play.

    And why shouldn't TD impact missiles to some degree. Each of the other ewar are not adverse for weapon type. And no, this "everybody will now fit TD" is nonsense. EWAR users will continue to use their prefer ewar.

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    1. Time to dust off the curse and Faction TD's. When this change was first propsed I trained all skills effecting TD to 5.

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  15. I have to say all the selfish whining is pretty expected really.
    The drake and tengu were clearly, demonstrably, op. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see this.

    The drakes will not be nerfed into oblivion because of this. HAMs actually got a buff.

    As for Tengu, they will STILL be the only tech3 cruiser everyone uses in wormholes. They will just kill things four fifths as quickly.

    Very good changes from a "health of the game in the longterm" point of view.

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  16. "Fury: Increase damage, increase the severity of penalties to explosion radius and velocity"

    It seems like until we know how heavy fury missiles are being changed we can't say much about the over all change? They could (if the increase is from current levels) end up doing more to large targets.

    I've seen a lot of reaction so far but without the specific details it seems like unjustified rage.

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  17. I see the change to heavy missiles as the much bigger nerf, Hurricanes will get by with 220's instead of 425 ACs just fine. The HML nerf is much bigger, and also I think it's bigger to PVE players than to PVP... either way, I don't think it will be a death knell for the Drake and Tengu, instead I hope it'l just bring some of the more seldom seen BCs back into play.

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