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I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Tuesday, October 16, 2012

Kill one profession, create another?

Just a quickie.

During World War II, it was an occasional practice for snipers -- particularly German snipers -- to wound their first or second target rather than killing him outright.  The idea was to set his buddies scattering... only to be drawn back to the victim by his pleas for help since he's not dead.  Follow-on victims attempting to assist the wounded man were killed, but the wounded man would create more potential victims.  And if the sniper was in danger of being taken out, his last act before attempting escape would be to finish off the wounded man.

This came to mind as I was chatting with one of my alliance's most successful suicide-gankers, who says he's going to give up the profession once Retribution drops.  He's in the profession for the profit, and the profit is about to disappear (almost literally).  How suicide-ganking works today is that the ganker fires and destroys the target ship (or doesn't).  If the ship is destroyed a wreck is created.  The ganker's alt in a convenient hauler then loots the wreck, drawing a thief flag for the ganker's corp.  But of course since a corp member is in on the gank, the danger is zero.  Nobody's going to shoot the hauler.  The hauler tries to loot the ganker ship wreck for the same reason, then warps off.

But in Retribution, looting a wreck that isn't yours is about to become a Suspect-level offense.  Anyone can shoot at Suspects.  Which means that there's going to be an interesting kill-mail farm to be had in not only shooting suicide-gankers on gates, but shooting the haulers they use to try to loot their prizes as well.  Shooting Suspects is not an offense, except to the person being shot but if he's in a hauler, who cares?  Ergo, you're likely to see a lot of Sebo'ed Tornadoes sitting on gates ready to gank anyone who tries to loot suicide-gank wrecks.  And anyone who tries to loot those wrecks.  And anyone who tries to loot those.  And so on.  Repeat until all the wrecks are looted.

And even if you don't get them, someone else probably will because they're carrying around the Suspect flag...

We may therefore see the death of that profession, but the (temporary) birth of another.  It may be temporary because even Goons will stop suicide-ganking if they can't figure out how to make a profit at it.  Stabbed Deep Space Transports with heavy shield tanks to do the looting, perhaps?  We'll see.

Have fun sniping!


  1. Can't the ganker drop a jetcan before/during the attack and then transfer the loot from the wreck to the jetcan before (or after) he's floating in a pod (depending on when Concord shows up)? The ganker sets the can blue, then warps off and the hauler alt can just loot the ganker's blue jetcan, without getting a Suspect flag.

    Or, another alt can make the blue jetcan and do the transfer from the wreck, if the ganker can't drop a jetcan or can't stay around long enough to make the transfer. The alt will get a Suspect flag, but the hauler will be safe.

  2. What you've neglected to mention is that these changes bring about an entirely new profession to collect those precious hisec tears.

    1. Drop jetcan
    2. Have alt in hauler pick up jetcan, draw suspect flag
    3. Wait for someone to shoot at flagged alt
    4. Redock flagged alt and grab pimped-out l33t combat ship, rape face of pilot who agressed
    5. ???
    6. Profit

  3. Suicide gankers will have to be smarter, and strike in quieter system where they can loot the field and escape.

  4. Looting by a player does not flag the entire corp, so one player/alt can loot the wreck, transfer to a jetcan, and another corp member/alt can safely pick it up.

  5. If I understood this, it will also kill ninja salvaging. So we are loosing two professions on this one.

    1. Ninja *looters* will be Suspects, yes. Ninja *salvagers* are still safe. That said, I don't think this is going to stop ninja looting, either. They are essentially Suspect to the missioner as it is. It might stop ninja looting when there are multiple people in a mission, but that's about all.

  6. There's a pretty obvious way to get away with the loot in the new system. It does involve considerably more risk if anything goes wrong, though.

  7. The way around this has already been figured out. The person looting flips the wreck into a can of their own. That can, can be looted by the same corp. So only the first looter will get the suspect flag.

  8. Looting with orca ?
    It's hard to kill, so one guy can't do it alone, if the loot is on the corp hangar no one can loot it, so if you kill it it's lost, and it can be fitted with MWD and 2 warp core allowing a quick warpout.
    May works no ?

  9. I think that when the hauler loot the wreck, gains a suspect flag and is killed, his wreck will be blue and free for all not giving any suspect flag to who loots it. Like what happens today with criminal wrecks. There would not be an infinite loop.

    What you need is 2 alt haulers. The suicide one and the second who grabs the loot from the first one. And also pray to the loot fairy! If you are fast, jet can it from the suicide hauler and pick it with second hauler in same fleet.

  10. Good, it's about bloody time. This is a great fix for what has been an unrealistic, broken mechanic that everyone simply adopted too.

    You should rarely die for a situation totally outside of your control, and regardless of how well planned your operation is, you can still be insta-popped by a decent force before you can even realize it. Even if you ran around with a small army of support, it wouldn't matter because they can't actually do anything to stop them.

    Now at least they'll be able to prevent them from gaining anything and possibly even allow for the recovery of any drops. Still a loss, but less-so and far less attractive.

    The cool side though, is the ganking aspect is still possible and I doubt this will change much. What will change however is giving a dedicated force a counter to it.

    1. I don't agree that being suicide ganked in highsec is totally outside of your control. My freighter has never been ganked because I use a scout. When I see a suicide gank squad ahead, I don't jump into it.

  11. Have an orca stand by.

    An alt in a noobship loots the wreck by directly dropping the contents into an orca corp bay.

    Noobship gets suspect flag. Orca gets loot.

  12. Couldn't you just have the neutral hauler in fleet, so it gets ownership of the wreck? Or am I missing something?

  13. I find it mildly amusing that gankers are worried about ... being ganked, and potentially having to make some of the same decisions that any lowsec hauler has to make.

    Apart from looting into a friendly nearby orca, for the record; the consensus around my crowd (both carebear and pirate) is that cloaky thin walled haulers are superior to deep space transport. I know there was a recent gank of a viator, but cloak, get in range; align, drop cloak, loot, warp to safe, recloak, hand off loot to friendly (untagged ship).

    This is how I accessed my customs office in lowsec while there were pirates in local.

    A competent looter should be visible for a second or less. Sure there is a chance for a competent pirate to gank you, but its carebearish to expect perfect safety.

  14. Another solution : warp orca to the wreck. Get past the wreck for 2km or so. Align a station in the opposite direction (supposed there is a station) loot everything at once or the fastest possible and initiate warp !

    1. If I'm looking to shoot some folks, I'm gonna lock up anything that even thinks about approaching a wreck. They get pointed the instant the flag goes up. So you'd better hope you're perfectly aligned and already at speed.

      'cause if it's an Orca I've got pointed, everyone in system will warp in to shoot at a Suspect Orca. I'll make sure they do by announcing what I've got pointed in Local.

    2. There is a good reason why you don't see gankers using Orca's to loot wrecks: Because it is an utterly stupid thing to do.

      The Orca's main advantage as a transport ship is the invisible corp hanger. Gankers don't bother with shooting them because they can't tell if there is anything inside worth popping, even for the tears.

      An Orca which is scooping up loot from a gank is a different story. Other gankers are going to know that the Orca probably scooped up something good, which now makes it a valid target.

      Sure, nothing will drop from the Orca's corp hanger, but it will still be worth popping the Orca and its scooped loot just for the KM and tears.

      Orca's are also expensive, big, slow and can be easily bumped to prevent them from getting to warp. A T1 hauler is far superior for scooping up the loot from a gank.

  15. there is this small little hint in the dev blog about crime watch:
    "but we are adding one additional rule: If I can legally attack the owner of a container, then I can legally take from the container."

    So if you are a suspect an drop a can, i assume everyone could take from that can as he can legally attack you. If your hauler is quick he can take from who ever has loaded that stuff to a can.

    On the other hand, wrecks don't bump you, flying full aligned through wan craping it an warping of is possible, but nor risk free of cause.

  16. Is he looting with an orca? Any self-respecting ganker uses a fast, agile cloaky ship as warp in, scan ship (if needed), and hauler.

    A helios can mwd to the loot, salvage as he aligns and loot as soon as the salvage cycle is done.

    0 risk.

    And as any good ganker would know you have to loot fast even now, cleaning the wrecks and calling concord to a nearby station in the minimum time possible is essential for a successful psychological warfare. (Also to keep your alts anonymous as they scout the system.)

    1. You don't know anything about ganking, do you?

      A Helios can't loot squat, with a cargohold of only 175m3, and you don't bother with salvaging the wrecks.

      As for "loot fast", looting consists of warping your hauler to the wreck from 150km or so away, clicking Loot All, and then warping off to station. You can't loot any faster than that. You don't pick and choose through the wreck.

      Finally, keeping alts anonymous is not important. You just biomass them occasionally, and create new ones. CCP only says that recycling toons to shed sec status penalties is not allowed - recycling a scout/hauler alt with a 0 sec status is perfectly ok.

  17. 1)Gankers destroy their target, drawing a criminal flag
    2)According to the new crimewatch, everyone can not only shoot them, but also loot cans/wrecks with 0 repercussions, as was pointed out above by Chanina.

    So no, the guy looting a ganked wreck shouldn't be taking any sort of flag. There just may be other vultures trying to loot the can first.


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