Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Monday, November 26, 2012

Malice toward none

It seems I have to issue a correction regarding my New Eden Open Day 4 post.  My error was understandable but deserves some explanation.  When refering to the XXXMity Malices fielded in their match versus RONIN and Pixies, I described the Malices as being part of the primary DPS of the team.  And if you see three assault frigates on an otherwise DPS-light team, each capable of delivering 165 DPS or more, it's only natural to assume that the Malices were there to deliver some pain.

But of course we all know about assumptions.  The first API-verified killmail for the Malices used in the match has appeared:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15310443

It also appears that the other two Malices were fit essentially identically: DPS free, fit only with short range neuts and NOSes.  I will grant you that this renders part of my opinion of XXXMity's comp wrong.  But what it means is their comp was even more painfully inept than I thought.  I can only ask again: what the hell were they thinking?

When you put together a tournament team, you've got to include DPS.  It's sort of the point to the endeavor: blowing up the other guy's ships.  With the fleet sizes we're looking at here, that means -- at minimum -- you need to put 2000 DPS in the air if you expect to get anywhere.  Anything under a thousand DPS is going to be negated by enemy logi; to break tanks in the face of enemy resistance, you're going to need double that.  The two most common main sources of DPS we're seeing are Sleipnir-Sleipnir-Claymore and either Kronos-Kronos or Vindi-Vindi.  These setups can generate 2000 DPS by themselves so adding an assault frigate or three is just gravy.  Some of the Harpy- or Enyo-heavy teams have approached 3500 DPS.

So when I see Damnation-Oracle-Oracle-Oneiros-Malice-Malice-Malice-Keres, the first thing I do is start adding up DPS.  Armor Oracles put out around 500 effective DPS each.  So I immediately jumped to the conclusion that the Malices must be providing DPS as well since you're certainly not going to get any out of a Damnation, Oneiros, or Keres!

I apologize for my assumption being in error.  But you can hardly blame me for seeing 1000 DPS and looking for more!

So given that these Malices were apparently entirely neut fit, I have to wonder just what the hell their intended role was.  Neut out the enemy logi for the Oracles, certainly.  But then what?  Even the most basic AF comp would have quickly and easily overrun this team, and that's exactly what happened.  Only these AFs were backed up by Sleipnirs, probably the most common tourney DPS ship and a ship that hits frigates like a freakin' hammer.  So if XXXMity didn't practice this comp against that, what did they practice against?  Vindicators?  What were the Malices supposed to do when they were 90% webbed down and covered in light drones?  What was the team supposed to do if they lost one of their two Oracles?  What, in short, was the plan?

So yeah.  I'm sorry for my error, but I think you'll agree that it was at least understandable...  Thank you to everyone who commented on my D4 post pointing out the error!

29 comments:

  1. I suggest you take another look at how much damage those oracles do

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    1. He doesn't need to do that, because his assessment is spot on. 500(ish) DPS is what you get when shooting Minnie T2 resists with your Oracles (high damage ammo, concord implants, overloaded)

      That's only valid assuming your target doesn't actually fit the Sleipnir with defensive mods, or starts moving around or has shield links of his own.

      Delete
  2. Go eft the Oracles, include implants and links. Then you can do a retraction of your retraction. The fact is they would have easily won with the links being on. You have no idea what you are talking about jester. Some people actually know how to fly ships in eve, although very few. There are other ways to win other than sitting at zero and pressing F1. Unfortunately most of what is considered to be elite pvp in eve is a farce.

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  3. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=14npfs&s=6
    There were two of these right?

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  4. Congrats you're still an idiot.

    500dps oracle? Rofl

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    1. Armor Oracle, ROFL. Oneiros, remember? Recalculate.

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    2. The armour oracles weren't fit in the way that you think they were, at least if they were using the fits that I expect (I can't access eve-kill here). Check the fits on eve-kill, and if they really do 500dps I'll be very surprised. Even then though, I'm not sure why you assumed two 500dps ships weren't the primary dps, and three 165dps ships were?!

      I'm not on the team, but I can take a pretty decent guess at the aim of the comp:

      The oracles provide the dps, and are designed to kite. With only a nominal tank, they put out significantly more than the 500dps that you think they do. Their resists are fairly low (at least prior to damnation links), but they should never have taken the brunt of the damage.

      The damnation provides links (you know... ideally!) primarily to keep the malices and oneiros alive. It's the only ship on the team that shouldn't be able to easily evade tackle with skirmish links (I assume he was fit for armour + skirmish), but with those reisists it's not an issue.

      The oneiros provides reps to the malices and to the damnation should the other team decide to primary it. With armour + skirmish links, the malices would have been able to take significant punishment while under reps and the damnation would basically be un-killable unless the logi was killed or damped out. The oneiros can also provide rep to the oracles, but against most teams they're unlikely to take significant damage thanks to their seed with skirmish links.

      The malices serve two roles - they can quickly catch up to and shut down opposing logi (and an early logi kill usually determines the outcome of the match), and can also shut down anything that might be able to catch up with the oracles. If they'd had links, they would have been very hard to kill.

      It's actually a very well thought out comp, and much more inventive than your typical AT cookie cutter setup. The implementation went horribly wrong of course, but I think your assessment of the setup itself is pretty far from the mark.

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    3. While the setup looks good on paper, it probably does not work.

      First off, it doesn't matter if the Damnation is un-killable, no one will be shooting at it. As seen in previous matches as well in previous alliance tournaments, players ignore a Damnation until all the rest of the ships are off the field.

      Second, look how many ships need to be under reps, as well as where those ships need to be. You have 6 ships that will need to be under rep, half of which use short range weapons. The Onieros will need to expose itself in order to reach both the Oracles and Malices. This is bad, since it is extremely obvious to even a newb that the Onieros is the linchpin of the setup.

      Considering that the meta for the tournament is Vindicators and Kronos, both of which have significant buffer, the easiest strategy is to concentrate on the Onieros.

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    4. A comp is only as good as its pilots.

      In this case, the comp was a failure, since the pilots could not execute it properly. They would have probably done far better in a cookie-cutter AT setup.

      Delete
  5. You're underestimating the dps output of their oracles by a factor of two, and I don't think you appreciate quite how potent the neuts on a malice are.

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  6. How much DPS do triple heat sink oracles do?

    Do you even try to think before you start typing?

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    1. Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. With one heat sink, an *armor* Oracle (Oneiros, remember?) does 500 DPS with Scorch, 650 with MF.

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    2. It's a good thing then that these didn't have just 1 heat sink.

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    3. Given that they were literally the team's only DPS, they didn't have much choice, did they? Are you really sitting there arguing that having two DPS ships on your eight man tournament team is smart, and you should refit to make those two ships even more of a linchpin?

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    4. No he's arguing that a large portion of what you wrote was retarded, and that your thought process that lead to assume that the malices were dps ships was retarded

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  7. The whole this is spoken like from the perspective of who the CSM is - big fat rich null sec alliance bosses. Not a word about anything of real benefit to High or Low sec or Wormholes and only very safe empire niceties for Null pushed here really. And some of us could care less about ship rebalancing, it's a snore fest while we end up spending our time on other games instead that actually have expansions with real new content beyond balance fixes.

    I have a suggestion - the one thing that CPP could do to make the game more interesting is to either give up on the null sec stagnation and build a new space that other players actually have a real chance at designed specifically to keep the same null blocks from taking over or spend the time on something that breaks up or off a section of existing null sec from the big blue blob which is killing interest in this game and of which CSM is a symptom and not a cure for.

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  8. you made the key error of assuming some measure of competence on the part of a human being, an act that will leave you embarrassed every time

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  9. You can possibly make an argument that they should have run single heat sink oracles however as we can see on the lossmails
    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15302972
    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15302960
    they were indeed running 3 heat sinks. Assuming they can apply this damage properly that's enough DPS to get by considering the significant nuets. The resists are a touch lacking at that point even with the command ship but still...

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    1. See above. Fitting an Oracle this way is *dumb*. I don't care how much DPS you do if you can't apply any of it because you're getting killed by Harpies practically before the Sleipnirs can even lock you.

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    2. >Gets Sleipnir into structure just as Guardian dies with no damage on any Malices or Oracles
      >Has no links
      >Not applying any DPS

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    3. you know, jester, sometimes people would listen and accept what you say more if you also know when to back down and say you're wrong.

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    4. So are you now going to retract this post again and do another 'LOL DUMB ORACLE FITS' post?

      It really shows how little research you do into your posts. First you call the Malices the primary source of DPS without checking their fits, then you claim the Oracles only do 500 DPS each without checking their fits, what next?

      Nice fact checking.

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    5. One more time: this whole post is predicated on the fact that when I wrote my D4 post, *I didn't have the Malice kill mails available*. So to write the D4 post, I had to make assumptions.

      My assumption was when I looked at an eight man fleet with two Oracles and three Malices, that the Malices were providing the main anti-frigate DPS. I think it was a natural assumption. What are webless Oracles going to do against frigs?

      Who could have guessed the Malices would have no DPS at all? Who could have guessed that the Oracles would be fit with only rigs for resists... i.e. badly?

      I agree I was wrong, but I was wrong only in the sense that I assumed XXXMity was made up of smart people. Hindsight is 20-20 and it's easy to say "Jester is dumb" two days later when you have full information. When I wrote my D4 post a few hours after the match was over, I didn't.

      When I'm flat-out wrong, I say I'm flat-out wrong. There's ample evidence on this blog to prove it: eight posts this year alone that include the phrase "I apologize for the error" or "I regret the error". But this isn't one of those times. If I'm apologizing for anything here, it's apologizing for posting my New Eden Open D4 wrap-up on Sunday instead of waiting a couple of days for the Malice KMs.

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    6. You greatly underestimate Malice Neuts. If you take a look at the Damnation mail, you can see we had a sensor integrity link on there. Without that the Malices had much lower sensor strength then we expected them to, so they got jammed frequently by ECM drones. If they weren't jammed as much they could have easily neuted the tackle off of the Guardian with just one Malice, keeping the Guardian perfectly safe the whole match. From there the whole of the Ronin team would have had no cap and everything would have died in short order to the Oracles. This plan failed because the links weren't on, but saying that the comp has no merit is wrong.

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    7. Maybe you should try to understand why they fit all their ships that way instead of just discarding it as being bad. Tournament fits != TQ fits. I'll give you a hint: neuts are quite good at clearing tackle.

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  10. It wasn't an oneiros but a guardian.

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  11. @Jester - don't waste your time trying to defend yourself. You are not a member of the CSM (yet) after all. Let it go, and move on.

    Besides, it is perfectly acceptable to make mistakes, be an idiot, and damn near anything else you want to do or be, esp. on your own blog.

    Hell, if you had to be always correct and brilliant to write a blog, or post on a forum, there would be no EVE community at all.

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    1. We wouldn't have THIS blog either.

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  12. From the patch notes for Retribution: "The Malice Energy Neutralizer and Vampire bonuses are now properly working"

    hmmmm....

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