Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Sunday, January 27, 2013

Kill of the Week: Overly aggressive

Let's start with a few house-keeping chores, then jump straight into the situation that prompted a themittani.com writer to write this little bit of massive irony:
Nearly ten percent of EVE players logged in were in Asakai, most of them fighting the CFC.
Shall we?

First, an honorable mention.  This Tengu was very nearly KOTW.  I was gonna call the post "Kill of the Week: Venture top damage" because I figured that would never happen again.  This kill makes me smile on all sorts of levels.  The Tengu fit is almost silly bad, for one thing.  Medium Ancillary Shield Booster?  Really?  It's a five-gun, meta 100MN AB non-faction bag of fail.  Then to top that off, it gets killed by a fleet made up of a majority stake of Ventures and Reapers, with just enough mining barges and haulers to elevate that theme fleet to the realm of the epic.  That's just glorious right there.  So congrats to Talocan United!  Nice little kill and until Friday or so was gonna be KOTW.

Then I was put onto these kills, which are the actual KOTWs:
http://evefusion.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9003
http://evefusion.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9033

No, your eyes aren't deceiving you.  That's two identical Bhaalgorns, both stupid expensive, both dying in low-sec on consecutive evenings to very similar FusionDOT gangs.  I chatted with one of the pilots involved with both kills, who was kind enough to share some of the details.  In the first death, the pilot involved realized he was being chased, logged out, but then logged back in in a position where the Fusion gang could tackle him.  The Bhaal burned off the gate apparently intent on neuting or webbing off tacklers and getting in a kill or two before warping off, but it didn't work.  Straightforward gank.  The Fusion gang asked the Bhaal pilot if he was angry and he replied, "no, just overconfident."  Good on him!  He clearly wanted to fight, and I can tell you that doesn't happen often.

The second night, similar story.  The Fusion fleet scout spotted the same guy in a nearby system again with a Bhaal on scan.  A chase ensued.  First to catch the Bhaal was a Cynabal and a Falcon.  Apparently confident that he could neut or web the Cynabal off him even under Falcon jams, the Bhaal burned off the gate instead of burning back.  However, the Bhaal's attempt to push the Cynabal off him failed and the two ships managed to slow down the Bhaal for the Fusion gang to again land on him and kill him.  Props to SuperstarBiH!  Tackling a Bhaalgorn in a Cynabal is a very risky proposition.  A max-skilled Bhaal pilot with overheated Fed Navy Webs can apply those webs to 36km... coincidentally the same range a Cynabal with a Republic Fleet point can keep the Bhaal pinned.  If those three neuts land, the Cynabal is capped out in a single cycle.  So that must have been some very good flying on SuperstarBiH's part even with jams on his side.  Well done!

Great kills, FusionDOT!  I'm -- as usual -- insanely jealous.  ;-)  And that brings us to the main event...

Number of dead super-caps this week: 12

Of course, the big news this week was the massive super-cap battle in Asakai where no fewer than nine super-caps were lost: three CFC titans, five CFC super-carriers, and one Pandemic Legion Nyx.  EVE News 24 has great coverage of this one, including three videos.  Unsurprisingly, themittani.com also has the story.  Equally unsurprisingly, theirs tries to spin the story in the least damaging way possible, and it's the source of the quote above.  Both versions cover the basic facts but for reference, I'll summarize my understanding of them here.  If my facts are mixed up, please let me know in comments!

Gallente Militia had reinforced a small Caldari Militia POS orbiting a Cobalt moon.  The Goon FC, Dabigredboat (DBRB), apparently decided to use a sub-cap fleet to hot-drop the GalFed fleet and kill what they could, then pull back.  The Goon fleet gathered around the Titan belonging to one of DBRB's alts.  Unfortunately, as sometimes happens, DBRB hit the "jump" option in the right-click menu instead of the "bridge" option and the GalFed fleet was presented with a Leviathan in their midst!  GalFed had suspected that a Goon hot-drop may be in the offing, though, so they had many dual-point hictors at the ready.  These immediately pounced on the Lev.  DBRB immediately called on the prepared Goon fleet to assist and a temporary Titan bridge network was set up to accomplish that.

By that time, GalFed had called in Pandemic Legion to assist in killing the tackled Titan, having warned them in advance that the Goons might be coming after them.  DBRB, seeing this -- he was in the tackled Titan, after all -- changed the nature of the op from "rescue me" to "kill PL super-cap fleet!"  This aggressive move brought in what was probably a good size fraction of the CFC's capital fleet of supers, dreads, and carriers.  For a while, CFC had local superiority, including enough DPS to both down the PL Nyx and reportedly for DBRB's Lev to jump out, get repairs, and jump back in with some of the CFC reinforcements.  That might be misinformation, but I heard it from a lot of people: DBRB's Lev got out, then came back in.

Meanwhile though, PL wasn't taking this escalation lying down and they called in everyone who was willing to "come kill Goons!"  And that, it turns out, was a lot of people that included a 50+ strong Black Legion dread fleet heavy on high damage Moroses and a TEST fleet more than 500 strong.  CFC rapidly lost local superiority and after that, CFC supers started dying at a rate of one every thirty minutes or so for about four hours thanks to the 10% TiDi that the system operated under for the rest of the night.  By the last couple of hours, the CFC orders were pretty clearly "GTFO if you can."  In the end in addition to the eight supers, 40+ dreads and 20+ carriers couldn't.


Final tally of losses on the CFC side is going to be something like 800 billion ISK... or put another way, the output of 12 tech moons for more than a year, if my math is accurate.  Even if you're the CFC, that has to hurt a little bit.

Is this going to have an impact on CFC/HBC relations, or even kick off the anticipated war?  Not a chance.  This was one of those random situations that completely escalated out of control of both sides.  Both sides are going to look at it, think "what the hell just happened there?!" and go on with their lives.  But in the meantime, DBRB is out of the capital FC business and Goons -- Goons! -- just became a bit more risk averse.

Right.  Other super losses this week?  That started with this Nyx, who I guess was taking pretty screen-caps of his ship.  Because word around the campfire was that he kept logging in, decloaking, cloaking, moving around a bit, logging back out, logging back in, et cetera.  This was sufficient for the PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS fleet to probe down his safe-spot, land in time to watch him cloak up in it, then warp in a sub-cap fleet to spread out, eventually successfully decloaking him.  Nice work!  Dead Nyx.

Next up, this Nyx snuffed out by Snuff Box.  I don't know how this one was caught but to me the interesting thing about this kill isn't the catching so much as the keeping.  That part was done with the some of the increasingly well-regarded neut Legions.  I really must make that a FOTW here before too long.  Congrats to Snuff Box!

Last was this low-sec Nyx, this one killed by a combined GalFed / Pandemic Legion fleet.  Word was that he was sitting outside a POS shield doing... something.  That "something" was quickly changed to dying when a (for PL) small super-carrier fleet landed on him.  Gallente and Minmatar Militias provided the tackle, proving that Asakai isn't the only system in which PL will accept sub-cap support help from FW pilots.

EDIT (28/Jan/2013): There's more detail on this kill in the comments below.  Look for the comment by Markius.  Thanks for the information!

All in all a pretty busy week!  But not a record.  That still stands at 14 in a single week, or two per day.  Also, as I was writing this post, I realized that I forgot to do a KOTW post for last week!  Oversight on my part.  Here's the money bit:

Number of dead super-caps last week: 2

But it's really short.  Just this Nyx dead to a Rooks and Kings hot-drop.  R&K gotta R&K.  The most entertaining thing about the kill-mail are the lows.  I have no idea what the thought process was here, but a dumb person and his super-carrier are soon parted.  Which also describes the other Nyx that died last week... helping a handful of sub-caps gate-camp!?  WTF?  TEST took care of that, putting enough bubbles around it to choke the system.  ;-)  Here's the video.  It's pretty amusing until the pilot taking it got himself killed.  Needless to say, the gate was soon no longer camped...

Lots of overly aggressive pilots this week and last!  I like it!

43 comments:

  1. "First, an honorable mention. This Tengu was very nearly KOTW. I was gonna call the post "Kill of the Week: Venture top damage" because I figured that would never happen again. This kill makes me smile on all sorts of levels. The Tengu fit is almost silly bad, for one thing. Medium Ancillary Shield Booster? Really? It's a five-gun, meta 100MN AB non-faction bag of fail. Then to top that off, it gets killed by a fleet made up of a majority stake of Ventures and Reapers, with just enough mining barges and haulers to elevate that theme fleet to the realm of the epic. That's just glorious right there. So congrats to Talocan United! "

    So ganks are PVP again?

    That you even HAVE a Kill of the Week segment while supporting the removal of non-consensual PVP typifies the casual hypocrisy of those who would kill EVE so that they never die.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They're only PVP when Ripard feels like it. When it's not, they're rape and slavery.

      Delete
    2. You're either misreading Jester or misrepresenting him. He's not "supporting the removal of non-consensual pvp." He's pointing out that the balance between poor and clueless new people trying to make isk and knowledgeable well-equipped veterans is in a strange place in the "safe" part of Eve. High Sec is not giving players higher security.

      He actually concludes "I still don't know [what to do about this]."

      Delete
    3. You really don't know what a "gank" is, do you, Alek?

      A gank is when you take one or more combat ships and pop an unarmed hauler or mining ship, in high sec.

      A gank is *not* a combat-fit (albeit poorly fit) T3 being taken down by a bunch of haulers, mining and noob ships, in null sec.

      This is called a "fail" (and, so are you, Alek).

      Delete
    4. This wasn't a gank, stupid.

      Delete
    5. There is a huge difference between a new/poor player getting ganked by suiciding "elite pvper" and an expensive ship (Tengu) with a possibly incompetent pilot being caught in a wormhole and legitimately killed. This is a legitimate kill in the area of the game where KILLS are expected and backed up by an appropriate risk/reward ratio. The game client even cautions the potentially inexperienced players before entering low/null sec or wormholes.

      I am a big amazed by the fact that a member of elected body with aspirations to become a "stakeholder" in game design cannot grasp this concept.

      Delete
    6. At what point does several industrials killing a Tengu remotely feel like a gank to you, Alek?

      Delete
    7. Really Alekseyev? That took no time at all for you to Jump down Jester's throat on his own blog and insert words into his mouth.

      Vote = lost.

      Delete
  2. So themittani.com is biased and EN24 is fair? Be careful when you imply things like that Jester. It's fine to hate on goons once in awhile, but don't let it blind you like it has riverini. It's cost him a large portion of his readership, not to mention the last CSM election. Not everything is a secret goon scheme. I'd like to see you elected to CSM8 due to your views on the issues, not because you appeal to the crowd that treats goons like Hitler treated Jews.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Go read my Limited applicability post from earlier this month. THIS TIME, themittani.com was biased, yes. Know where the "Asakai Aftermath" story is published? The NEWS section. Know where it isn't published? The FEATURES (opinion) section.

      Go reread it with that in mind.

      Delete
    2. The Nyx in Kamela was helping the Minmatar militia corp Lazy worms awox a POS belonging to Minmatar Militia corp guardians of eden.

      Minmatar Militia joined forces with Shadow cartel and got it pointed we then jumped in dreads but the cyno had been bumped 40km of the Nyx, Most of our caps then jumped out without siege But I decided Fuck it my Nag was insured and sieged.

      We then heard PL was on the way so I turned off my Armour repper and tried to get enough cap to jump out after siege ended, As PL came in my siege ended and I jumped out in structure the Nyx then went down with the extra damage from PL.

      Delete
    3. themittani.com is not a "secret" Goon scheme, but it *is* a Goon scheme.

      They are mostly objective on non-Goon general issues, but they are unabashedly biased when reporting on Goon activities. In this particular case, themittani.com article was nothing but spin control. CFC got spanked, badly, and are attempting to blame the situation on a combination of mistakes by DBRB, server lag (yeah, right - because it only affected the Goons), and "everyone against the Goons" (yeah, right, that old song again).

      Fact is, Goons can't operate worth a damn in low sec, nor in high sec, for that matter. In low, they have been repeatedly spanked. "Titans should never be committed to lowsec", says the CFC skyteam - they are right, because (a) CFC's titan pilots aren't that good (hit the wrong button?) and (b) the CFC FCs don't really know how to manage them, outside of blob warfare. A PL supercap fleet will defeat a CFC supercap fleet, every time, unless outnumbered 3-to-1. In high, Burn Jita was nothing more than a fizzle - fun while it lasted, but with no lasting effect. Same as the touted Gallente Ice Interdiction.

      To the Goons and TheMittani: stay in your null space and be happy as the true carebears which you've become.

      Delete
    4. LOL... awesome! That's some good flying.

      Delete
    5. Maybe you and I have different ideas of spin, because I read the article and I'm not seeing it. Fair reporting (including an accounting of losses) and input from all sides? That sounds like news to me. Of course, as part of the bloc I might be blind to it, so would you care to point out the spin to me?

      Delete
    6. My "good flying" comment is to Markius, BTW.

      @mynnna, I'm taking the anonymous commentor's side on this one. Examples of spin:

      "...PL had basically contacted every single other group in New Eden..."
      "...Once the titans were ordered out, the CFC forces knew the battle was lost..."
      "...This fight could appropriately be called Everyone vs. CFC..."
      "...Pilots from all over, who would not in a million years go into null, steamed as fast as they could to Asakai..."
      "...As the CFC skyteam put it, lowsec has the worst hardware of the cluster; huge fleet fights should never be held there..."
      "...Undoubtedly there will be ships returned to pilots that died of a server error..."
      "...In the end, I think Elise sums up the whole fight from both sides quite well..."

      Whether these quotes are true or not, they are opinion, not facts or news.

      In addition, the two reaction sections are written very poorly from a journalism stand-point. There are no direct quotes from the CFC side and as noted from the quote above includes unsourced opinion. Example: "When all is said and done, they all emphasized their continued support of Boat, saying that he is a good fleet commander and will remain a coalition level FC." Who said that? Based on what? What did Boat say about THIS fight? What did Mittens say about this fight? We don't know. That's bad journalism.

      The anonymous comment is right. This piece is opinion and spin. It includes news, but is not news. It should have been edited and sanitized pretty thoroughly before being posted to themittani.com's news section and it wasn't.

      Delete
    7. Fair enough. Unintentional spin, I think, but still spin.

      Delete
    8. [quote]PL had basically contacted every single other group in New Eden[/quote]

      Who do I complain to, I am not on PL's mailing list?!

      Delete
    9. Hi! I'm the reporter that wrote said article you're referencing.
      I conducted two interviews for this. One with Elise Randolph, Second with Rydis and a few others from the Skyteam. It was late for all of them, most of them had been drinking, so it was agreed that everything would be background and nothing attributed to an individual. I'll talk to Elise and ask if he minds if the interview is published, if so, I will upload the raw data to the comments on themittani.com article.

      After the fight wound down, I think it was 2am my time (US central) that I volunteered to write the article. My deadline to get this to the editors was 8am my time. Some of that was me running to the store to get caffeine and some food. I reached out to 4 different people for interviews, DBRB, Elo Knight, Elise Randolph and Rydis. The first two did not respond.
      Elise was done via chat in Eve and if he agrees I will post the raw interview in the comments section of themittani.com website. Rydis brought along four other members of the sky team with her and we talked on GSF mumble. Sadly, my word processor choked after the interview and I had to do most of it from memory. Not that it mattered, as I said, nothing would be attributed to any one person, no direct quotes.

      I just double-checked the NYT. They are still not footnoting their articles. This is news, not an academic paper. Some of this article is first hand reporting, as I was flying a carrier in that fight and some interviews with Elise and the CFC Skyteam.

      When writing this, I made a dead set effort to include the opposing viewpoint as much as possible. There was no spin on this article. What I said happened, happened. CFC forces got stomped on by the rest of the cluster and we lost.

      For the past several months, yours has been one of the sites that I have read daily. With your horrible rape analogy, and then this, I'm beginning to wonder if this is even worth my time any more.

      Delete
    10. "PL had basically contacted every single other group in New Eden"

      Yeah, we didn't get the message either. Maybe we were all out to lunch at the time....

      Delete
    11. @Alizabeth - Whine much? You sure make a lot of excuses.

      Learn how to write the facts, and just the facts, or don't bother writing anything else - at least, don't try to call it news reporting. Maybe a personal blog is more your speed.

      And, don't blame Jester for your lack of journalistic skills.

      Delete
    12. @Alizabeth - you need to quote your sources. If you don't, you are failing as a credible journalist. If said source doesn't want to be identified, then you need to say so in the article.

      You don't need footnotes to do those things.

      Delete
  3. Link to the Nyx "doing something" gives an eve-kill "server error" (LOL?)

    Not to whiteknight anybody, but I've been in a fleet as logi squad commander and in the right-click menu the 'Align To' and 'Warp Squad To' buttons are veerrrryyyy close to each other. Haven't made that key mis-click yet but came close many times. When the game's mechanics make it so easy to make a mistake, truly a meta mistake more than a strategic or tactical one, I find it hard to place blame. CCP should really hire a few UI experts. Nevertheless a proper sense of schadenfreude compels me to laugh at DBRB's fat fingered titan jump.

    That 2x loser Bhaalgorn... yeah he clearly wanted to fight. The question is, did he want a fight before or AFTER he realized that gang was chasing him?

    ReplyDelete
  4. Responding to other comments... Riverini's hatred of the Goon is the reason why he has so many followers. I doubt it has cost him any. The reasons he didn't get elected to the CSM have more to do with his barely understandable English and nothing more.

    Also, congrats for Godwin in 1.

    I hope you've got a thick skin, Jester, the swiftboaters will be out in force now that you've declared! The memes are already coalescing. A careful and discerning reader will discount the bases for these attacks, but your average EVE player who thinks the CSM is relevant will be unable to do so.

    ReplyDelete
  5. You sure make tackling a battleship with falcon support sound heroic :)

    I agree that it was great piloting of the Cynabal pilot to keep the Bhaal pointed without getting too close to be neuted out! (And I envy him that he got such a shiny kill)

    But calling it risky for the cynabal to try to tackle the bhaal in that situation is going a bit too far considering that he has a Falcon that even with only 3 Multispec jams gets around 50% chance to jam the bhaal once every 20 seconds.

    Even when he gets unlucky with jam's its unlikely that he would get killed with the speed difference between the webbed cynabal and the mwd'ing bhaal being less then 300m/s

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Bhaal pilot, if he's playing properly, has a sensor strength of 32 here. With overheated multispecs, the Falcon has a 33% jam chance, 25% if he doesn't overheat. It only goes up to 50% chance if the Falcon has overheated racials and that's only if the Falcon is also otherwise flying perfectly.

      Even with the Falcon there, this was probably a tricky tackle. The Bhaal could have easily gotten away after killing the Cynabal.

      Delete
    2. That math looks a lot like you're only counting a single jammer. Assuming 6 jammers with a 25% chance to jam per would be
      (1-(1-.25)^6) = 82% chance of being jammed

      It only goes up assuming the Falcon pilot has a few seconds of lock before the Bhaal and thus has time to stagger the jams.

      Delete
  6. One interesting thing about the lo sec incident that popped out was that apparently the local Dustserver died too.
    I'm curious if it was a coincidence or not? I'm sure a few DEVs are going to be pouring over this one's logs

    Another question popps up: whats it going to be like when TiDi hits & Dust bunnies request orbital strikes? It'd be funny too see a bunch of Infantry outrun a laser streaking towards the ground :)
    ~DarthNefarius


    ReplyDelete
  7. i still can't get over the Bhaalgorn pilot's killboard. He had several Bhaalgorn and Ashimmu losses before and they are AWFUL; as in dual tanked, 100mm plate, wrong type of ECCM, all T1 mods, etc. and, he has almost no PVP experience.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I can certainly argue with his choice of ship for developing PvP experience, but not his intentions! Those I approve of heartily.

      But just maybe he should start out with something a little less shiny. Or at least bring the shiny ship to Syndicate. ;-)

      Delete
    2. Agree with Jester about the Bhaal pilot's intentions.

      You can fault his fits, but not the fact that he is clearly enjoying the game and making it fun for others by engaging, rather than running away, making excuses and/or getting mad.

      As for his choice of ships, fly what you can afford to lose. Obviously, he likes to fly shinies and has no problem losing them.

      Delete
  8. The only way for a news site to be considered objective is if it's never partial. The mittani.com does sometimes include completely unbiased articles from non-Goon sources and to its credit flags reports of Goon internal material with "warning: this is propaganda" messages but very often it's also used as a propaganda tool or even a metagaming tool. For most people it's one of the least trustworthy sources in Eve. In fact it's less trustworthy than EN24 which when it's not reporting about the CFC is a decent source of news.

    There's also a circlejerk effect. Most Goons share common perspectives on Eve and also frequently share them with each other. So you hear day after day how high sec needs Goons from multiple different sources. Then you see one source, eg Jester, dissent and think he's some kind of crazy maverick extremist. In fact he's far more in tune with most Eve players than most Goon writers are.

    Finally a Godwin. Really? From someone who is supposed to be a member of the Something Awful community? Pubbieswarm indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  9. A little backstory on the Tengu. The pilot was trying to multibox with a couple of Tengus, two Scimis and a Drake in the Talocan wormhole. They however managed to kill his scanner and closed the wormhole, leaving him stranded. After a few days they let him go in exchange for one additional killmail (to my knowledge, they already killed two Tengus and a Drake on this point). And Talocan decided to make this killmail as hilarious as possible. The ship was not piloted when it was killed.

    And what about this 33bil Paladin? http://zkillboard.com/detail/28003625/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for the info. Interesting! I wonder if the fleet in question could have done the job had the ship been piloted. ;-)

      And yeah, I thought about the Paladin, but I've done so many mission-runner ganks as KOTW that I felt like doing something else.

      Delete
  10. Black Legion just happened to be moving 50 dreads at the time? You really believe this was just mere coincidence?

    And, no one in the CFC knew that dread fleet was chugging around? What happened to the great Goon spymaster?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mittens was probably drunk, as usual.

      Delete
  11. Why is the tengu fit bad? Not quite getting it.

    ReplyDelete
  12. So much for the Goon bravado about being able to take on anyone and everyone in EVE.

    Looks like this also puts an end to any chance that the Goons will start a war with TEST. After all, "everyone" would side with TEST and the Goons will just get spanked, as they did in Asakai by GalFed (how embarassing, btw).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, at least CFC is living up to its name.

      Delete
  13. Try 6 tengus, a scimitar and a drake as escape-route-watcher/prober/off-grid booster. The tengus with this fit have a small sig, and move fast making them very hard to catch. The podded pilot had sensor strength implants. The accomplishment was finding them, combat scanning them, cutting them off from home, herding them into our home and then rapidly locking the door behind them.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Godwin`s Law [x]
    time needed: 70 min

    ReplyDelete
  15. Just to comment DBRB was not going to bridge a sub cap fleet in. He was only bridging in 2 bombers to get better eyes in system and a carrier fleet of 10 Archons was supposed to jump in at the same time and try to get things kicked off. There never was a subcap fleet until shit hit the fan.

    I was one of the first capitals jumping in.

    ReplyDelete
  16. For the record, I think that complaining about the server problems is totally unjustified and plain wrong.

    Prior to TiDi and the ongoing work by CCP's server team, a battle like this would have never been remotely possible. Given that this was an unscheduled battle and given the number of participants, it is simply amazing that the server didn't just crash and kick everyone off. Under these circumstances, lag and some disconnects can easily be forgiven.

    So, please give big kudos to CCP, for building an awesome system which actually made this impromptu battle possible. There is no other MMO which can compete with EVE Online in this regard.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Thanks for the comment Jester :) Yeah Everyone needs a Nyx kill to keep those bitter vet blues away

    ReplyDelete