Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Thursday, March 7, 2013

I don't have to outrun the bear

First, I want to apologize to those of you that have no interest in the CSM election.  All this political stuff will be wrapping up when the election ends on 17 April and win or lose, things for me will go back to normal around here.

That said, it's possible to use the election as a springboard for interesting, more general EVE topics.  I've spent parts of the last week or ten days in cloaky alts watching New Order ganks on mining barges, exhumers, and Orcas.  Unsurprisingly, there are not only some gaps in their attack patterns that you can exploit, there are more general strategies that will make you less of a soft target for ganking and low-level harassment in general.

The most egregious problem with mining in general and ice-mining in particular is how unengaging it is.  Trust me, if I do get to Iceland it's something that's going to come up -- I don't care if CCP already knows.  ;-)  Very ironically, this was only made worse by the large cargo increase in the Retriever and Mackinaw.  But the simple fact is that every part of the market demands ice in enormous quantities.  That isn't going to change.  So while I'm sympathetic to the rage that AFK mining produces, I also understand why AFK mining happens.  How else is it supposed to get done?  To use an analogy, it'd be great if someone were to invent the transporter because UPS and Fedex and the mail service having to haul packages around is dumb and wasteful of resources and boring.  But until someone gets around to inventing the transporter, someone has to haul the mail.

Often after such ganks, the gank targets are told they should tank their ships more.  After observing the Order at work, I can tell you that advice isn't going to do you much good.  If you tank your ship more, the Order will just bring more Catalysts.  Last Friday night, I saw them use seven Catalysts on one Mack.  So that's (mostly) out.  A reasonable amount of tank, sure.  But don't bother overdoing it.  You can't win the game on that basis so there's no point even trying.

Having been in mining ops myself, I can tell you the only bearable way to do it is to make it a social activity, and that's what I recommend here.  Even more so, though, you can not only make mining a social activity but use the social element of EVE to make yourself an unappealing target.  As the punchline to the old joke goes, "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you."  The Order gains strength from numbers, so you have to do the same.

Of course, the most direct way to do that is with a corp cooperative op.  And over time, I think that's the best solution both for the miners and for the game.  But of course known mining corps draw high-sec war-decs so often it's not advantageous to "corp up" if you also can't attract experienced PvPers.  You're just trading one set of attackers for another.  Still, there's nothing saying you can't cooperate with other miners despite not being in the same corp.

The simplest way to make yourself a hard target and deflect gankers onto the other guy is with cooperative tactics.  As long as you can find people you trust and can share the overall output of a mining op, there's no reason why you can't (and shouldn't) support your mining op with a few support ships.  The best first ship to add is a Scythe.  Use the double Large repper version I posted a few weeks ago.  Its thin tank is not much of a disadvantage in a high-sec mining situation and it reps more than a thousand DPS before overheating on a exhumer with decent resists.  Most Catalysts don't have a lot of alpha so this will help a lot.  The Scythe can pre-lock up to eight mining ships.

Speaking of tank, if you're worried about ganking, have your mining ships tank against kinetic damage, then thermal.  That's the type of damage the Catalysts are going to be doing and they can't tune their damage away from it.  Use active resists, and overheat them.  That adds another 300 DPS to the resistance of an exhumer being repped by a Scythe.

Even more than a Scythe or two, though, just make yourself completely unattractive to a gank fleet with this specialized ship:

[Scorpion, Defensive]
Damage Control II
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I

Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Auto Targeting System II

Large Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Valkyrie II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5


One of the biggest holes in the Order's attack pattern is that it takes them several seconds to set up a gank.  While their warp-ins generally allow them to land within a few thousand meters of their targets, they have to close to between 1100 and 1800 meters to apply their tactics successfully, and they have to do it on standard propulsion.  This gives you some response time.  That response time is more than enough for this defensive Scorpion to lock up the entire gank fleet and make it clear you won't brook any nonsense.  They'll see you yellow-boxing them.

A full suite of green jammers are one of the two beating hearts of this ship.  With those jammers overheated, even a casual Caldari battleship pilot will have better than an 80% chance of jamming a Catalyst.  Place those jammers from F1 to F6, then pre-overheat them and just leave them overheated for the entire duration of the mining op.  When a gank fleet lands, lock them all up.  That will only take you six or seven seconds, less time then they need to set up their gank.  Once you have the entire gank fleet locked up, if you want to be particularly aggressive make sure your safety is set to green and then just start hitting F-keys.  The safety will prevent you from CONCORDing yourself: you won't attempt jams until the gank fleet goes to work making them legal targets.(1)

The second beating heart of the ship are those neuts.  Pre-overheat all of those, too.  Once the gank begins, keep an eye out for targets that you don't jam successfully.  Those targets get two neuts each.  That will instantly completely cap out a Catalyst rendering it no threat at all until CONCORD gets around to killing it.  A gank ship that can't fire guns isn't going to be ganking anyone.  The fifth neut can be placed on any legal target you like.  It won't instantly cap out a Catalyst like two neuts will, but it will turn that Catalyst into an inert brick after six or seven volleys, cutting its total damage output significantly.

In this way, this single Scorpion is guaranteed to stop three gankers, and is likely to stop seven.  Once combat starts, you can only keep these tactics up for about a minute before you run out of cap, but that's 30 seconds longer than a gank fleet can keep them up!  You only have to stay alive long enough for CONCORD to kill the whole squad.

The Auto Targeting system allows you to lock up ten targets, the Sebos are there to cut your lock time.  You can cut that further by equipping another support ship in your fleet somewhere with a Remote Sensor Booster or two.  Tank is armor, made nice and thick with T2 plates.  Those cut your speed but you have no reason to care about that.  ;-)  The Catalysts might decide to go after you.  If they do, fine: it takes a hell of a lot of them to gank you, you'll have half or more of them jammed or neuted, and if worst comes to worst, a Scorpion is much cheaper than a Mackinaw.  Launch your drones and either jam another Catalyst or put some DPS on one of them.  Valkyries do a number on Catalysts; you may kill that one before CONCORD can.

Most likely result, though: a gank fleet that sees a mining op protected by a Scorpion, particularly an alert Scorp pilot that locks up the gank fleet as soon as they land, is going to decide that maybe the next belt or ice field over is a good place to try instead.  Whatever they decide, you win.

More tips:
  • The Scorp can use its Valks to clear rats.  That means you can more mining drones if you want and you're mining ore.  If you carry damage drones instead, assist them to the Scorp pilot.  As he starts attacking legal targets, your drones will help him.
  • Remember that if a gank fleet can't kill you, they might decide to harass you with bumping.  There are a few ways around this.  One good way is to park your fleet in the midst of what you're mining.  This works particularly well in dense ice fields.  Ships that are nestled up to a solid object like a large ice cube are surprisingly resistant to bumping.
  • Beware Brutixes!  Sooner or later, the Order is going to upgrade, particularly if group mining becomes more of a thing.  They're already using one of them occasionally to supplement their DPS on harder targets.  The best solution to an incoming Brutix gank is probably just to warp off.
  • Have your expensive stuff stay aligned.  That includes the Scorpion if you use one, and your Orca.  Most belts and ice fields are laid out in such a way that it's an easy matter to align to an object off in the distance for a while, then as your range increases from the fleet you're supporting, just align to something else in the opposite direction.
  • Use your directional scanner, set to ten million kilometers or so.  Just give a couple of people this job, watching the d-scanner.  If a bunch of Catalysts appear, they can wake up the rest of the fleet a good 15-20 seconds before a gank fleet arrives.  That's plenty of time to align the whole fleet.  If the number of Catalysts is excessive, you can warp off as they land.
  • If Scorpions defending mining ops do become a thing, the Order might respond with a suicide Griffin.  This is fairly unlikely to succeed -- Scorps are resistant to jamming -- but you can make it nearly impossible by sacrificing one jammer for an ECCM.  If you have an Orca in your group, the Scorp can make this choice on the fly, refitting if needed from the Orca.
  • Don't bunch up!  Every mining ship should stay at least 5000 meters from every other mining ship.  Don't trade Catalyst ganks for smart-bomb ganks.  Scorps can't jam those, though five heavy neuts on a smart-bombing battleship will shut those smart-bombs down real real fast.
All in all, the purpose to these tactics is to make mining more social and to make your group an unattractive target.  You don't have to outrun the bear.  As a side effect, though, it does reduce the number of people in the group that have to be alert every second.  Put a Scorp and a Scythe in your group and you know who has to stay awake?  Just the Scorp and the Scythe.  Between those two ships, they can hold off a pretty sizable gank squad without anyone else having to be there at all.  It's not something I recommend, of course... but it's an option.

Oh, and when the op is over, remember that the ice take gets split between the members of the whole fleet, and that includes your Scorp and Scythe pilots.

Stay safe out there.  ;-)


(1) True pros will set up an overview tab that only shows legal targets -- criminals and suspects -- then work from that overview.  You do that with the overview filter.  Just create a new overview setting, then set it to filter out everything except criminals and suspects.

96 comments:

  1. Out of curiosity were most of the NWO gankers -10's & flashy already when they entered the belts?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In my observations, about 2/3 to 3/4 of any given gank group I watched were -5 or less.

      Delete
    2. Why didn't you shoot them?

      Delete
    3. Anon: He didn't shoot them because it wasn't his job to do the miners' fighting for them. So far, most miners feel that other people should handle all of their problems for them. Miner entitlement syndrome.

      All this posted advice assumes that miners will group up, pilot proper PvP ships and defend themselves.

      This doesn't happen.

      What they actually do is attempt tear tanking ( very amusing ), or they attempt petition tanking, which requires a CSM response.


      If they try to use your recommendations, Jester ... then we will have won and gotten what we were after in the first place.

      Delete
    4. As for our options ... welp, it doesn't take long to train into a cormorant or a thrasher ... nice ECM ya got there ... snort.

      We have been pondering Vexor fleets for improved DPS, but we could be using Minmatar or Caldari as well ... or even Amarr.


      Our scout has been scanning your scorpion ... A t1 cruiser fleet is incoming. Hope this helps, have a nice day.

      Delete
    5. Oh, and there is an even cheaper option than all of the above.

      Pay the 10m ISK. Put support for James 315 in you bio.

      Permit Tank is the best tank!

      Delete
    6. @Agent Track - a Proc is cheaper than the 10M ISK.

      Delete
  2. Have you ever sat in a scorpion and deflected a gank attempt before, Ripard?

    ReplyDelete
  3. How come Valkyries and not Warriors?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Valks do more effective damage to destroyer-size targets, particularly if those destroyers are nerfing themselves because they're not using prop mods.

      Delete
    2. Damn. I'd have gone for the explosive hole they weren't filling. Back to the drawing board!

      Delete
    3. Valks also do explosive damage. All Minmatar drones do.

      Delete
    4. Valks do much less damage than Hammerheads, esp. when your target isn't moving around much.

      And, why would a gank dessie fit prop mods?

      Delete
  4. I have almost never mined at all, but who is going to do this over watch? I assume it's going to be someone in the mining fleet with two accounts. Profit off of mining in hi sec is really low though I am not familiar with the profitability of ice mining. If you do not have someone with two accounts willing to run these defense ships, who are you going to be able to pay as part of the fleet to do this? This has always seemed part of the problem with defense fleets for mining operations. I understand that you may have no choice, or a choice between mining and not mining.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You've hit it exactly: you have a choice between no ice at all because you're scared of being ganked, and somewhat less ice because you're mining into the teeth of potential gank fleets.

      That said, since your mining ships don't have to worry about tank *as much* since they're protected, you might be able to wedge on another mining laser upgrade or rig to increase output to make up for the missing mining ship.

      The net though, is better some ice than none.

      Delete
    2. Actually, you have the choice of doing sth else in Eve (with more profits than mining) if you are actually at the keyboard at all...

      It's not either mine or not. There is quite a bit else in Eve to do. The big lure of mining ice in highsec is that you don't have to be at your keyboard. If you actually HAD to be at the keyboard (at least sbd).. whats the point? Could just as well run missions...

      Delete
    3. If you're at the keyboard mashing D-scan you are far better off doing something else such as mission running.

      If you want me flying a scorpion in a mining op, mashing D-scan and being ready to lock up gankers the moment they appear on grid, you better be paying better than level 4 missions in my Tengu.

      Here is a simpler way to become more gank-resistant: mine in AB fitted Skiffs, keep the Skiff moving. The catalyst can't keep up with the Skiff for the purpose of closing range and reducing traversal to 0.

      Delete
  5. Dinsdale PirannhaMarch 7, 2013 at 1:06 PM

    Ripard, the more you type about this asshat and his tactics, the more I realize you are not a good candidate for high sec. What you just described is awful. They will simply bring out Brutixes and chew through a double-plated Scorp in seconds. Money is not an object to them. They are being backed by goons. One asshat candidate from goons has handed them at least 4.4 billion, and that is one guy. They sociopaths are being sponsored to grief. This is all it is. They will lose 500M in ships to take out a 160M Scorpion, and just giggle.

    Economics is not a factor in their thought process.
    And you should know that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow, if only I had thought of counter-tactics for that and put them in the original blog post?

      Oh wait, I DID. :P Did you not READ where I specifically mention Brutixes and how to respond to them?

      Also, do you have proof of direct Goon backing? If so, please send it to me. Thanks! I recognize that individual Goons are backing the Order, but that's not the same thing.

      As for the Brutixes themselves, while I agree with you in part, I can't see it happening wholesale. There are dozens of characters to train into them, the logistics problem, and the problem of moving them around. Mass numbers of crim-flagged Brutixes moving around might even draw Rote Kapelle into high-sec space to kill them en masse. ;-) Heaven knows I certainly would. Tracking Order pilots as they moved around high-sec was EASY.

      As long as there are easier targets, I believe the default position of the Order would be to move on to them.

      Delete
    2. "As for the Brutixes themselves, while I agree with you in part, I can't see it happening wholesale."

      Why not? The Goons used them. Even Mittens recommends them in his newbee guide:

      http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?39504-Goonswarm-Shrugged-The-Gallente-Ice-Interdiction

      Delete
    3. I only receive my work direction from one of my company's managers. Therefore I'm not actually working for the company.

      Love your logic.

      Delete
    4. Dinsdale PirannhaMarch 7, 2013 at 9:18 PM

      Ripard, when the financial director of goons sends them 4.4 billion, and he is also the defacto goon candidate for the CSM, that IS the goons backing them.

      And yes, I did read your comments about Brutixes: Move away. And the first time the sociopaths clue in there is a Scorpion on the field, out come the Brutixes. Money is not an object. They blow up the Scorp, then reship to Catalysts at some friendly Orca and they are off to the races.

      So basically, the only way to avoid these assholes is to move away as soon as they show up. These guys love the "challenge" if you can call it, of circumventing any defense against them.And it is oh so easy for them to do it.

      Delete
    5. @ Mara

      Let's test yours then: I am a consultant for LG. If I use my paycheck to place a hit on a North Korean, does that mean LG is backing the assassination of North Koreans?

      Love your logic.

      Delete
  6. Hmmmm
    1.)Good Ideas
    2.)Solid Tactics
    3.)A "Pre-set" Plan anyone can follow

    Yep, none of it will happen...the killings will continue.

    As a "former" miner in Highsec now merrily killing Carriers in 0.0 I can easily see the thought process lending itself to that extra ship and profit vs this. Lead a horse to water and all that...

    But you have my support Ripard.

    ReplyDelete
  7. There is a fundamental problem with your ideas: to use them, you must be not AFK. Now, if you are already ready to be at the keyboard, you could run L4s for 4x higher ISK/hour. The point of mining is doing it while AFK.

    Other problems: Scythe can be ganked by a single Catalyst. The Scorpion can be taken out by suicide Griffin supporting the Catas. Also, if the logi is not in the same corp as the miner, he goes suspect by repping - and die.

    Also, typical anti-ganker mistake is attacking too soon. You mentioned green safety but if the ganker is below -5, you can attack him anywhere. If he is not performing crime, Concord will not come. A miner with zero PvP experience WILL make a mistake and fire on Catas before they go flashy, getting into limited engagement and die. Wannabe heroes end up badly: https://zkillboard.com/detail/28259710/ + http://zkillboard.com/detail/28259715/ might even be idiot of the week. While I'm the last man who shall use the term "PvP experience" but here I use it very restrictively: simply the ability to perform your planned action under pressure within a few seconds. That needs some practice, something a miner doesn't have. He WILL fail a few times, just like the newbie gankers fail few times. But losing a 4M T1 cata hurts less than losing a Scorpion, a Scimitar or an Orca. On the top of that, in highsec everyone has expensive implants. Without practice, overview with celestials, that pod will die.

    Let me tell you the ultimate way of gank protection: don't mine where the New Order is. The main fleet cover a few systems only. While there are solo gankers elsewhere, but a DCII handle those.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. sometimes I even wonder if you try any of things you say on a test server or in eve itself?

      "in highsec everyone has expensive implants. Without practice, overview with celestials, that pod will die."
      Callout, show me a nonbias statistic of how many characters have implants in the game and where they are at? Otherwise, that is an assumption that can be wrong or correct.

      "A miner with zero PvP experience WILL make a mistake and fire on Catas before they go flashy, getting into limited engagement and die."
      That is if they acttually use their drones. Please explain the green safety alittle more, I do not understand your logic.

      "The Scorpion can be taken out by suicide Griffin supporting the Catas."
      Coming from the guy who only flown logi in actual combat. Bro Do you even ECM?

      Delete
    2. That is one of the few times Gevlon is correct.

      Your whole premise is BS. You either mine AFK or you don't. If you don't want to be AFK, there are better things to do anyway than sitting in a bunch of miners doing (for the most part) NOTHING.

      Delete
    3. Many might agree with you, Anon1343, but not all. When I min e, I don't AFK. When I run or participate in corp mining ops, I'm not AFK and neither are the other members.

      Remember this: there are more than a few EvE players who enjoy non-AFK mining. Just becuae you don't, doesn't mean it's true for everyone.

      Delete
    4. Gev & Anon1:43... I call Bullshit.

      "f you don't want to be AFK, there are better things to do anyway than sitting in a bunch of miners doing (for the most part) NOTHING." Bullshit. Just because YOU would rather be doing anything else is a personal opinion and reflects ONLY your subjective perspective... that you are unable to 'see' anyone else's perspective, or at the very least accept that there ARE other perspectives... just goes to show how little you actually know.

      And I speak from DIRECT experience. While I personally dislike mining as an occupation (though the Venture has eased that feeling somewhat) I personally know of a large group of guys who mine in Fleet, on Comms and as actively as ANY PvP gang. AND I am good friends with a few guys who have played the solo miner game for YEARS.

      They spam Dscan, they chat up a storm bout EvE Bozos and Internet Boobs, they call in DPS support (me and others) for rats and they have long term practice in GTFOing when needed and rarely lose a mining ship... and this is years of experience in Hisec, Losec, Nullsec and Negsec.

      So unless YOU are an experienced miner, which both of you say you are not, then STFU.

      Everything you say about mining in Eve has as much to do with the realities of Mining in EvE as your personal take on how your menstrual cycle makes you 'feel'...

      And before you both 'doth protest too much'...

      Yes there are many AFK miners in EvE.. and it is my belief (no data here just OPINION based on minimal experience) that most are bots though some are guys who are seriously causal players and have factored in their gank losses (have met a few of them, weird types TBH but it takes all kinds to make a 'verse...).. which most can make up easily as they build their own ships and make more than you can gank unless you wanna risk a harassment ban.

      Sorry Ripard... I just hate people who go off like experts and in doing so show just how little they actually really know...

      Have a Nice Day! =]

      Delete
    5. The dual large shield transporter Scythe will move at 800m/s (900m/s with an overdrive injector).
      The tripple medium Shield transporter scythe will move at 2131m/s.

      Both have enough cap left for 25 seconds of overheated repping.
      Both will orbit the Scorpion within neut range.

      Even if you *did* get a warpin (hint: no cloaked ship moves fast enough to get ahead of either of those) you'd need a mwd on your Cata to keep up with the AB scythe.
      No chance a Cata catches the MWD Scythe.

      You'd need primary tackle on you scout and a perch just offgrid only to land *some* damage. Even then, the scorp will just suck him dry...

      So: All in all a pretty good tactic (i thought about using a heavily plated bhaalgorn with 8 heavy neuts for whoring on concord-kills a month ago)

      But protection is *much* easier: Get those two alts in noobships. Suicide one within the belt. Let CONCORD do the protection - they neut and jam better than any Scorp.
      If CONCORD despawns watch d-scan closely and suicide the other if catas pop up - CONCORD should be there to greet them. If you respawn CONCORD right away, the gankers will just lure them away immediately.

      Delete
    6. You got it @Tur.
      There are many different ways to have fun in this game and not everyone enjoys the PvP or PvE part, they just enjoy mining. And mining in a big social bunch is lot of fun. It's more socializing than a fun roam as you don't have to look out for new targets and listen to FC command.

      You can just enjoy working together. And some news for those intelligent people telling mining is less effective than missioning. you know what? Maybe you are right, but maybe missioning with 5+ Characters is just awful and mining stays more relaxed with rising character numbers. In the end it is all about having fun and chatting with friends while mining is fun if you have the right people.

      Jester might be wrong about one thing or another and I don't know how much first hand experience he collected but the new order is a bunch of cowards who pick the easy targets first. if those tried out they may change to higher targets but until then a good organized field has more pros then cons. And if there are 10+ new order guys running around in local it is good time to switching system.

      After all some basic eve law gets in: If someone wants you dead, you will die one way or the other. You just can make it harder for them.

      Like the brave james 0815 (oh it was 315 right?) who is hiding in his closing and reforming corporation to avoid consequences of his famous / infamous actions.

      Delete
    7. Nice post TurAmarth. For some reason people think miners don't make isk and are AFK all the time. They couldn't be more wrong.

      Delete
    8. Tur is a single miner. Any of his stories about himself are just anecdotes which provide only a single datapoint; that's pretty much useless for describing a general trend.

      The New Order, by contrast, interacts with a large pool of hisec miners on a daily basis. And what do they find? A few awake and polite miners, but mostly AFKers, bots and the braindead. Tur falls in this last category.

      While Jester's description of techniques to foil a gank is interesting, it doesn't really fit with the general playstyle of the hisec miner.

      Delete
    9. I'd rather sit in a defensive BS doing the social game ( just as Jester suspects is good incentive ) than doing L4s alone.

      But, then again, I may not be representative of the average EVE account owner.

      Delete
    10. Just saw this and have to respond... even though Anon8:12 will prolly never see it... for the record: I am not a miner you tard, read my blog... heck read my comment above... I personally HATE mining. All of my stories are about OTHERS mining... lots of others. PLUS I believe a majority of miners are bots and AFK'er... which agrees with your findings.

      As for braindead? LOL you idiot I live in a C6 wormhole. YOU attack defenseless players in HISEC so you are safe safe safe... Come into my world one day braindeadboy.. and find out what EvE is REALLY all about... =]

      Delete
  8. Scorpions, scythes, jams, neuts, drones, red overviews... The sheer scale of wrongness in this article makes my head hurt. There is only one way to properly, safely, and honorably mine in New Order territory. It is also the easiest and simplest:

    - purchase mining permits for only 10 million a year per mining ship.
    - pledge allegiance and support in your bio to the New Order and The Supreme Protector Of Hisec, James 315
    - follow the Halaima Code of Conduct by always being at your keyboard while mining, respecting all forms of emergent gameplay, and not being a dick in general. See the full code here: http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html

    The ONLY way. Isn't this so much more simple, cheaper and more reasonable?

    James 315 for CSM8

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wouldn't, by definition, a counter to an emergent form of gameplay be itself an emergent form of gameplay? Are you not therefore bound by your own code to respect its in game application?

      Delete
    2. Well, no.

      I'll neither protect my AFK mining, nor pledge allegiance to sbd. who is blackmailing me.

      I'll simply continue to (AFK) mine in Exhumers. If that stops being profitable due to ganks, I'll AFK-mine in T1 barges.

      If - quite unlikely - that stops being profitable, I'd stop playing Eve while watching TV.

      Delete
    3. This is EVE! If you want to just roll over and let the biggest dog around get belly scratching rights you might as well go home. Fight because it's fun. This war is emergent gameplay

      Delete
    4. This. Rolling over to extortion is certainly an option. I'm specifying that it's not the only one. Miners can (and in my opinion, should) have a little fun with this learning experience. If it doesn't work, you're out maybe 120 mil for a Scorp and fittings. Cheaper by half than a Mack or a Hulk.

      Delete
  9. That really isn't that helpful.

    If I wanted to be present during ice mining... adding a Scythe/Scorpion might be something. But i DONT and you actually DID notice why. What is the purpose of adding one guy to 8 AFK miners, who actually has to pay (pretty close) attention to the situation... Sure, its only 1 person in 9 who has to pay attention.... but it is not worth it.

    If I don't want to watch TV, i don't mine. I do other stuff that is both more profitable and more fun.

    Basically, if the ganking would become to much of a sink (profitability wise), I'd stop mining before hopping into a Scythe to sit on grid - useless for weeks until it would actually matter. That watchdog role is even more boring than being present during mining, in some ways. More realistically, use cheaper ships for mining (obvs.)

    You might have a different perspective - following them around - but being ganked happens RARELY. Now, it happens often enough that it is a dangerous sink for profits, but that is due to the income / cost difference for the advanced barges. But compared to your playtime, its pretty rare. I won't take precautions that are quite a lot of effort, for sth. that happens only every few months (to me).

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    1. Your perspective that ganking is rare is kinda off-topic. You should know that the reason for this blog entry is the New Order, which only operates in a limited area (atm.) Within those systems I doubt ganking is slow, they're boasting--sorry, *posting* about it all the time.
      -Bantara

      Delete
    2. Yes, this is an Order-specific post, though the Order's "boundaries" are expanding all the time. Within those boundaries, ganks are happening many, many times per day. I personally observed dozens of ganks, including one Orca.

      Delete
    3. That's the entire reason why Ripard specifically mentioned mining as a social event. Mining ATK is much less painful when you have 8 other guys to talk to about how you liked the old strip miners better, and how the barge changes are the best thing ever but you miss Hulkageddon's price spikes because you're a savvy industrialist that stockpiles his minerals to sell when the prices spike.

      The people in most danger are the ones that solo mine or, Tibus Heth forbid, multi-box. This is pretty much true in any area of space. And TBH they are doing it wrong.
      EVE is a social game after all.

      Delete
  10. WORST comes to WORST. Sheesh, is your editor sleeping on the job? :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Someone remind me to fire that guy.

      Delete
  11. Haha I like how your idea requires miners to do something they're already not willing to do: be at the fucking keyboard.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Technically, only two out of ten or so players have to be at the keyboard. All of the miners can be AFK if they want as long as the Scorp/Scythe pilots aren't. ;-)

      Delete
    2. Sure, every Scorp and Scythe pilot just loves hanging around high sec mining belts. More fun than gate camping or POS bashing.

      Delete
  12. The mind of the highsec miner is a marvel of minimalistic efficiency. They can be absolutely predictable in doing whatever they believe gives them the maximum profit for the minimum effort. When the reality of a bumping Agent or an in-system gank fleet impinges on their imaginary, EULA protected existence, they will respond with a low or even no effort reaction.

    I truly believe that they rely on the defense nature has provided to many types of prey thoughout history. That is, the hope that the big cat(alyst) will eat the next gazelle over and not them. Even when the very good solution that Steel H. outlines is suggested to them repeatedly, they cannot accept a solution with an actual cost.

    Without debating the actual effectiveness of your proposed tactics I will submit that the actual situation will be similar to G.K. Chesterton's comments about Christianity. "It won't be tried and found wanting, it will be found difficult, and therefore, not tried".

    Bing Bangboom
    Agent of the New Order of Highsec
    Belligerent Undesirable

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    Replies
    1. Mining gankers and bumpers are simply relying on the offense nature has provided other bacteria: numbers. A finite number of weenies in a less finite number of cheap ships with a very finite lack of imagination means they do their thing, whatever we want to call it, with what they believe gives them the maximum payoff for the minimum effort.

      Delete
  13. Quite possibly your most "wrong" post ever, Jester (even worse than the Signature post). Perhaps you should stop posting about topics with which you have no in-game experience. At least, wait until *after* the CSM elections are over.

    Go try your Scorp/Scythe idea in NO space, and then let us know how it works out.

    ReplyDelete
  14. The only way to "beat" a ganker is to fly something that is not cost-effective to gank. For mining ships, this would be the Procurer.

    Thanks to excess market supply, Procs are dirt cheap, and you only need to buy a single mining/ice turret to do the same mining as a Retriever (2 turrets) or Covetor (3 turrets). So, it doesn't take much mining to cover the fitted cost of a Proc.

    And, with its BC-like tank, you can't kill a Proc with a solo Catalyst. Every Proc kill is a net loss for a ganker.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No, the Order is burning down many Retrievers per day, using up to four Catalysts to do it. Using something cheap is not a defense.

      That said, there's certainly nothing wrong with using a Procurer as you say. They're also quicker to align and easier to protect from bumping in the midst of a belt or ice field.

      Delete
    2. Jester, I said Procurer, not Retriever.

      Retrievers are not cheap. The market supply of cheap Retrievers is long gone and the price is now well above manufacturing cost.

      A Proc, on the other hand, costs between 20-35% of the price of a Retriever, and that's assuming you don't have access to any of the large stocks at the old 2M ISK per unit price.

      And, you can't burn a Proc with only four Cats. An untanked Proc already has almost 30K EHP. With cheap T1 or low meta modules (DC, shield extenders, invuls) and cheap T1 shield resist rigs, the tank goes up to nearly 60K EHP.

      60K EHP on a T1 mining barge, with T1 fittings.

      Do the math.

      How many of your T2 fit Cats is it going to take to gank my T1 fit Proc? How much ISK did you just spend to kill my sub-10M ISK ship? You aren't going to get jack in salvage or module drops from my wreck. And, do you know how little mining I actually need to do to pay to replace my ship?

      Delete
    3. Sell that Procurer pilot an expensive billion ISK mining implant, and mark him with bad standings for special treatment.

      We can get the ISK efficiency up to positive status with a pod kill, if we know that miner has a valuable pod.

      Delete
    4. @Agent Trask - miners who fly Procs (and Retrievers) don't fit expensive mining implants.

      Miners who can afford billion ISK implants typically fly (and lose) Macks or Hulks. These are the guys who are interested in squeezing every extra percent of mining efficiency from each cycle.

      Besides, miners can also use jump clones, without implants, if mining in NO space.

      Delete
  15. I say let CONCORD do the work for you:
    1) Set up the Mining Op
    2) Waltz out your own noob ship fit suicide alt and impotently fire on an innocent in the belt
    3) Concord will respond and then *linger* in the belt (much to the ire of the real gankers)
    4) Keep an eye on your CONCORD protectors. If they get called away the gankers are probably setting you up and it might be time to warp off
    5) Hell, leave a friendly noob suicide alt right in the belt and habitually call CONCORD in every so often
    6) Noob ships are cheap, cheap, cheap but CONCORD still hates’em when they misbehave

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Karbox DelacroixMarch 7, 2013 at 5:22 PM

      I have heard conflicting reports about whether this is considered an exploit. I could try to use logic and reason to argue a point, but this is CCP so who knows.

      Delete
    2. This ^ Anon 3:10pm has it exactly right.

      Noob alt w/ noob ship = concordokken!
      What's that? a fleet of 10 noobship alts comes in to light up the belt with Concord BS prior to setting up an AFK mining festival of lights and lazors?

      The Mining gankers won't enjoy that much...

      Delete
    3. @ Karbox,

      The NO frequently make us of this same tactic on stations, customs offices etc to pull Concord out of belts, afaik nobody's banned any of them for it yet. Seems reasonable to assume the same would extend to the miners as well. The only rule that I think is in place is that you're not allowed to create a gank alt, burn their sec status out and then biomass and recreate them to evade sec status penalties, which would presumably apply to your concord-bait alt as well - this would effectively be a permanent job for that character slot.

      That said, bear in mind the NO do reposition concord frequently - your alt might have its work cut out keeping Concord in one spot if the NO want it somewhere else.

      Delete
    4. This assumes that miners will actually do something, anon. Or that they will even notice when CONCORD is drawn off by the New order.

      New Order scouts have even nuzzled targets with an obvious bump stabber, and the targets just sat there while cats were vectored in.

      If someone is that oblivious, then all the good advice in the world wont help him.

      Delete
  16. This post proves that highsec is currently too safe...well done destroying your last two posts with the third in the series?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How does this prove that hisec is currently too safe?

      Delete
    2. I'll let Jester explain it with one of his replies to another comment: "Technically, only two out of ten or so players have to be at the keyboard. All of the miners can be AFK if they want as long as the Scorp/Scythe pilots aren't. "

      Quote from Jester's initial post: "You do not solve this problem by nuking that portion of the sandbox and rendering it a barren radioactive wasteland."

      I.e., Jester claims that highsec is currently so safe that the vast majority of a mining op could, and therefore plausibly SHOULD, mine afk(For a relatively common definition of 'should'). he also claims making highsec easier to gank in will turn it into a "barren radioactive wasteland", as part of his point about newbie friendliness(which I think is a bit of smokescreen, if a newbie spreads skillpoints around it will take them months to get into a retriever, and will no longer be a newbie. If someone uses a focused skillplan putting every single skillpoint in mining, quickly ending up in a retriever but without any of the tanking/fitting skills, they've made a series of dangerous choices and have chosen their fate). To me, these statements contradict each other. A highsec filled with afk players is already a barren wasteland to me.

      However, there's still something missing, an unspoken assumption that defines what "too safe" means which I neglected to include in my earlier comment: "If hisec is so safe that the majority of players in it can safely afk for 30 minutes while their ship continues to play for them, then it is too safe". I'm not sure if jester agrees with this assumption or not. If he doesn't, then he actually hasn't proven what I said he did. If he does, then he has. This to me is the real heart of the disagreement over this topic--some people think afk'ing while in space in EVE should result in a high probability of getting podded, no matter where you are or what ship you're in; and some don't. (afking being part of a larger category of behaviors including not really paying any attention to the game window, or botting, falling somewhere in between those two extremes. There are a number of reasons to choose a 30 minute afk as an exemplar of this range, commonality and specificity being the two most obvious) These elaborate arguments about the issue, where the participants explore all kinds of extended ramifications but never clarify the foundation of their beliefs, will never settle anything. Where do you stand on this basic question Mara? How about you Jester?

      (e.g. 30 minute productive afk time plus making a few ships be able to protect X number of afk ships is a sufficient condition allowing some unnamed person (the wiz), to run a 150 ship mining fleet solo without even using isboxer, which he has been doing and posting on youtube, to give a practical example of why those 2 conditions were chosen and illustrated. The wiz has been using Jester's suggestions of tier 3 BC(although he uses nagas, not nadoes, iirc) and ECM scorps protecting a massive fleet of effectively afk ships for quite some time now, so my response to jester is not a theoretical one, but a practical observation of what happens when people actually use the ideas he's adopted as his own) In my mind, a future where all ice mining is done by 4 people in highsec, one for each type of ice, each running 250 accounts solo, is the barren radioactive wasteland that we should fear--and CCP has already implemented the nerfs and buffs to make that future a probable one. Averting that future may be a radical change to highsec, but it's merely reverting the radical mistakes that CCP has already made.

      Delete
    3. Please do remember to mention the part where I said I DON'T RECOMMEND YOU LEAVE EIGHT SHIPS OUT OF TEN AFK, because I did. ;-) As for the rest of your post, it's quite interesting that you brought up the "can you hang out undocked for a long length of time?" as a measuring stick, because I used the same measuring stick in my post on the subject (appearing shortly on a blog near you).

      Delete
    4. "If someone uses a focused skillplan putting every single skillpoint in mining, quickly ending up in a retriever but without any of the tanking/fitting skills, they've made a series of dangerous choices and have chosen their fate)."

      Gotta disagree with you there Rammstein - I can very easily see a newbie doing what you're talking about without being aware they're making any choices at all, certainly without choosing their fate. It's pretty simple:
      Newbie starts out on indy career agent, gets given a freebie Venture
      Newbie starts mining in Venture and is overcome by "Oh wow I am mining giant asteroids in my SPACESHIP!" as EVE is wont to provoke among newbies
      Newbie asks in Rookie Help what mining ship they should train for after their Venture
      Rookie Help answers with the Retriever, because with the removal of the mining cruisers it is the next ship to train for
      Newbie looks at retriever item info, sees a list of needed skills (none of which include any tanking ones whatsoever) and starts training them
      A few days (weeks?) later newbie has finished training and mined enough to buy a Retriever, strip miners, mining upgrades and maybe some civvy shield boosters etc.
      Newbie is now mining in a retriever without the skills to tank it because they have no idea it's useful or necessary to have those skills for mining.

      I've spent enough time in Rookie Help to know that "What's my mining ship after the Venture"/"Retriever" is a very common exchange there; it seems reasonable to me that if the rookie in that exchange enjoys mining enough to stick with it they are likely to train specifically the required piloting skills.

      Delete
    5. @Hivemind: "I can very easily see a newbie doing what you're talking about without being aware they're making any choices at all, certainly without choosing their fate."

      One doesn't have to be aware that one is choosing one's fate, to be choosing one's fate. It is preferable, though.

      @Jester: "Please do remember to mention the part where I said I DON'T RECOMMEND YOU LEAVE EIGHT SHIPS OUT OF TEN AFK, because I did. "

      My post was an answer to Mara's question "How does this prove that highsec is currently too safe?" The question of whether highsec is too safe or not does not depend on the specifics of your recommendations, but on an examination of all possible options under the game rules, and the subsequent comparison of those options and their consequences to previously made definitions of desirable safety. The relevant part of your post is then not your recommendations, but your analysis of certain of these possible options and their consequences. If I were to mention every single thing you've ever mentioned "because I did", as you've asked, instead of only mentioning things you've written that are relevant to my argument, then I would have to quote every single thing you've ever written every time I reply to you, which would comprise millions of words and not fit in this comment box. As this is impossible, I must, regretfully, deny your request.

      Delete
  17. This is becoming really funny to me. The more I read about this New Order and James 315 the more absurd and comical they get. Not knowing much about them (except hearing a podcast interview ) this is really enlightening. So let me see if I got this straight, previously I thought the New Order was just another high sec griefer group that engaged in a variety of war decs, ganking haulers and occasionally miners, and baiting mission runners into a fight. But from the looks of it all these guys do is just gank miners? Really? That's the amazing style of play they do, shooting ships with no guns and talking smack about it? Wow, how brave of them.

    Now that's fine and all, they can play how they want, but the smack talk about it is hilarious and where it becomes really funny for me is for a bunch of guys who never seem to leave hi sec, they sure do claim to hate hi sec. The best part is how they cry about the same people without guns that they shoot and extort are the ones who are apparently ruin the game for the rest of us. The New Oder is like a bunch of adults who hang out at an elementary school play ground extorting kids for their lunch money and beating them up, all the while crying to the city to shut the playground down because allowing the children to play on it is destroying the YMCA they never go to.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. You've got it all, except the part that they "claim ownership" over a small area of high-sec where they ply this trade. But yeah, other than that you have it surrounded. They log in these alts, they get into Catalysts and they wait in station until an alt IDs a target and gets a warp-to. Then a bunch of them undock, warp to the target, gank it, gank the pod if they can, go back to station, get a new Catalyst, rinse, repeat. I assume that sometimes they sit in pods out in space instead, with Catalysts stored in an Orca, but I haven't physically observed that part myself. Yet. When I do, I'm gonna try to get a bunch of pod-kills, partially for fun, partially to see if THEY are AFK.

      Lots of these alts have a couple hundred mining barge, exhumer, and pod kills in a month, with a very occasional Orca or Venture thrown in. Based on this activity and the number of kills, Goblin recently bragged on his blog that he's a "better PvPer" than most of Rote Kapelle. You can imagine the amusement on Rote comms.

      Delete
    2. Karbox DelacroixMarch 7, 2013 at 5:31 PM

      You forgot the part where they clear the belt of Concord. That is an important part of ice-ganking.

      Delete
    3. Thanks jester for tipping me off to read Goblins blog the laughs just keep on coming. I'm defiantly passing that one on coms tomorrow for the group giggles too. But man reading that, it almost felt like a Poe. I mean he can't believe all that crap… can he?

      I also enjoy how he decries miners for having it so easy making isk. Apparently he thinks they have it too easy, just warping to a belt pushing button and getting so much isk. Then he brags about how much isk he makes in hi sec. Isk he makes just warping to belt pushing button and getting isk. It'll make your head hurt if you take that seriously.

      Delete
    4. The NO gank and bump miners. Minerbumping.com. Yes, that's what they do. Insofar as their targets are actually grown men, I don't think you can really fairly compare them to innocent children. But sure: the NO is the de facto government of the belts. As such, they levy a very, very small tax on the innocent children there. And the funny thing is, most of the children won't pay it -- because, like most children, they are ignorant and/or irrational.

      What is the point of this? At one level, roleplaying, to enforce the New Halaima Code. At another, performance art. At another, a wonderful experiment in sandbox-fu. At another, to extract delicious salty tears. And finally it's a fascinating social experiment, seeing how many grown men refuse to act rationally when faced with superior force. In this sense, miners are not like children, who are much more sensible.

      As for the NO not leaving highsec: certainly their gank alts don't, because that is where the New Halaima Code applies. Also, there is no point in attempting to gank miners in lowsec, because there are no miners there. (Hmm. That needs fixed.) My impression is that many of the NO gankers have mains that are not in highsec, but that's pretty hard to tell for sure.

      Delete
    5. Even more amusing: They claim that they want to push people out of high sec and into low / null. But most of the high sec griefers would never dare to jump into a low sec or null sec system because the PVP isn't zero risk -they might actually have to fight someone who can fight back...

      As for the playground analogy: It's more like a bunch of bullies beating up special needs kids -it's very pathetic. I think my W space alliance needs to make a trip to high sec for some miner protection ops...

      Delete
    6. Jester: We don't use Orcas.

      We just blow them up.

      Delete
    7. John Kimbler:

      I agree that miners are the special needs kids of New Eden.

      Anyone who AFKs with that much ISK in his ship and his pod very seriously has a special need to be blown up, as well as being a self-made retard.

      Delete
    8. @John you do understand that most of these gankers are alts of null sec players. And not just the CFC and HBC, I've seen alts from MEN. along with nulli. When the CFC was camping MEN. in NPC Venal, I logged in my ganking alt and rolled with the guys camping me in.

      Delete
  18. Seriously they just need to run a better macro. These days it's easy enough to check the local. Check each pilots standing and dock. You can even leave a alt sentry that will tell the rest when it's ok to go back to mining. Pretty much like a hive mind where all macros communicate with each other.

    ReplyDelete
  19. So you are suggesting to use 8 alts and a main account for the Scorpion to make high-sec mining profitable?

    No player will do this level of work just to mine lower end stuff.....

    I'm not against ganking miners, but the proposal you are explaining here does not make sense from a isk vs time vs effort perspective. If i was mining arkonor it might, alas that happens in a place where one must not be AFK to begin with.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Jeez a lot of these flaming comments are weird. I don't see why if you are in a mining fleet having 1 or 2 in 10 people at the keyboard is hard. Get everyone basic scorp skills, take turns, everyone can be afk on 80% or 90% of ops.

    I strongly encourage you, Jester, to try and hunt and kill new order members, many have the sec status to make it possible. Put a running total on the blog for our amusement. THAT would be emergent gameplay.

    Infact that sounds fun...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The miners I know can't fly scorpions (on no char they own). So taking turns isn't such an obvious solution as you make it sound.

      Delete
    2. I actually tried that one day when I was in hisec and felt like a bit of a change, it's actually fairly hard - the gank character itself usually only undocks when they have a warpin on a miner via a scout alt, they go from the undock straight to a far-offgrid instawarp bookmark and from there to their warpin and gank target. Whoring on Concord KMs is easy of course, just wait for them in the belts, but actually killing them before they can gank is rather less so.

      For people who constantly complain that hisec is too safe and needs to be made less dangerous, they certainly go out of their way to avoid risk wherever they can.

      Delete
    3. After reading this one I'm thinking the same thing... ;P

      Delete
    4. Not risk aversion, Hivemind. We do what we need to do to get the job done.

      Our ships were written off as gone the second we undock with the intent of getting CONCORDOKKEN.

      Once in a while, a skilled player does nuke one of our cats on the way out ( Once in a blue moon, a player actually pods a knight in the belt after a gank, and gets a couple million ISK worth of cheap gank implants ).

      This isn't enough to prevent the gank, however.

      Delete
  21. Plan B: Minimal tank, max yield, no defense ships and accept a gank every now and then. The profit is Much greater in the long run. This especially true if you mine in an out of the way system.

    ReplyDelete
  22. They're reasonably good ideas, don't get me wrong, but I think you're missing part of the New Order mentality. They operate on several levels, but one of those levels is as a tear-farming organisation; a majority of the posts on James 315's blog are tears and a lot of the content there is submissions from random NO gankers. This is relevant in the context of defending mining ops because a defended mining op is far more likely to produce tears in response to a successful gank than an undefended one, which may in fact be entirely AFK. Defenders will offer some protection when the NO don't have enough members active to overcome those defences, but when they do they're liable to attract more gankers. The group happy to throw away 4 catalysts for a lone AFK retriever won't hesitate to throw a couple more away to gank a scythe who's at keyboard and may well be willing to add in an extra 8 catalysts whose job it is just to occupy the Scorp's target slots. For that matter Catalyst DPS is normally 350+, so 3 more catas will beat out a scythe's reps on an exhumer.

    The single best solution to the New Order showing up where you mine is to mine somewhere else - their range isn't increasing a whole lot, they're usually focusing on a few systems at a time which they move periodically. There are always plenty more icebelts out there that they aren't ganking in. Obviously if everyone does this they can follow, but surprisingly enough it's a lot easier for a miner in good sec standing to relocate a single mining ship than it is for a small army of gankers, many of whom have KOS sec levels, and their baggage train of replacement catalysts, fittings, scout alts etc. Want to burn the New Order out? Make them have to relocate every couple of days because all the targets have moved to other systems by then.

    ReplyDelete
  23. I'll second Ambro comment. In fact, I'm thinking of moving a few sniper corms to some of the NO systems...

    ReplyDelete
  24. Heres the issue with this idea: it requires the miners to actually be next to their keyboard and pay attention or actually have friends that are willing to guard them and we all know that for highsec miners this isn't possible, they want to "play" alone without any type of interaction with the rest of EVE.

    As someone that sets up the warpin for the ganks let me share information about my difficult trade:
    I press 1 button, called keep at range 5m - then sit and wait, sometimes for over 10 minutes until the gank squad shows up explosions happen.
    10 minutes?isn't that allot of time?yes it is, even more when the warpin ship is actually a high profile combat ship, am I telling you that plenty of miners get ganked by having a combat ship like a thorax parked on top of them for over 10 minutes?yes, sometimes I even call them out in local by asking if they're here or I just tell the miners in local that whoever I'm parked next to is about to be ganked, it doesn't matter because they are not here - they can't react.

    In regards to EWAR - there are already 'vultures' that try interrupting ganks with EWAR, we have a counter to it: more catalysts, if the situation dictates we can drop over 10 catalysts on a single miner to counter losing ships to jams/neuts, even then good luck finding a scorpion pilot to babysit miners in highsec.
    Theres only one way to avoid a gank - the minerbumping.com has a map of where we gank, stay out of these systems or buy a permit.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Jester, one point you left out is that that your corp should put NO at -5. They show up orange in local. Also you might consider writing up a guide to finding and killing hisec targets based upon their low security status. That to me seems what CCP intended players to do. Hunt them down, kill their ships, rinse, repeat until NO finds something else to do.

    ReplyDelete
  26. I haven't posted on a blog before, hence the anon, but this hits very close to home. I am an miner/industrializt by trade. I mine roids and ice most of the time that I am online. I don't like the assumption that all miners are AFK, I certainly don't.
    I fit for survival. Before the exhumer buff, my standard hulk survived an 8 Thrasher gank attempt - it was aligning but they caught it. My Orca survived a 20+ thrasher gank attempt - any half decent pilot can catch an orca. The tactics above would work, but the effort isn't worth it. It is a better call to go in a fleet and use the available bonuses. With those bonuses and a good tank, you can survive most gank attempts. Now, they can bring out the brutixs, but this is EVE. I expect to lose a mining ship occasionally. I avoid most ganks by fitting appropriately, staying aware of my surroundings, and using a fleet. The miner that attempts to fit one more mining upgrade at the expense of a DC is asking to get ganked.
    Thanks for the info Ripard. I plan on flying over to NO space and see if I can get some free kills :).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is the way it should be and I hope to hear about more NWO gankers getting jammed/shot up ( I wouldn't doubt they enjoy the excitment too )
      Hope to hear about fake 'AFK' retriever bait ships too coordinating with fleet bonuses to counter NWO

      Delete
    2. Yeah, just because a decent chunk of a group does one thing, doesn't mean omg, the entire bunch of them are lazy asses. Someone's doing a good propaganda job out there on that, painting every single miner as afking all the time. There are also plenty of miners who do sit at the keyboard, and are chatting on voice or in text, checking markets, etc. while keeping an eye on overview.

      I also get up occasionally while mining to get a drink or something, but I also do that during missions, say once I'm down to frigates, and am just letting my drones do their thing.

      I wonder how many of these 'elite' PVPers who rail against afk mining spend their time sitting in fleets in null watching porn for hours while waiting for their fights, or go 'bio' in the middle of a fleet? But that's all right, because they're PVPers.

      Delete
  27. "As he starts attacking legal targets, your drones will help him. "

    This is the way it should be.
    Fact is, that drones do NOT engage in cases where a Limited Engagement would be created and is not yet.

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    Replies
    1. Interesting! Not even if the target is crim-flagged? Have you confirmed this?

      Delete
  28. Ways to counter the New Order

    * Fit a tank, make the person next to you an easier target.
    * If there's player wrecks in belt, then there's gankers about, pay attention.
    * If they show up in local, engage with them but don't be a gobshite, if you are you'll attract attention to yourself, attract enough and your tank won't matter.
    * Buy a permit, @ 10M p/a it's cheap and only takes an hour or so of mining to pay off.
    * Always fit a DCII to your Orca, it doubles your EHP, cargo expanders eat into your EHP, 1 is acceptable, if you have 2 you're asking for an explosion.
    * Damage Control II, fit it, love it.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Another option is to just not be there once they start landing.

    Everybody in the fleet webs everyone else, resulting in a top speed of 11.4m/s and a fully aligned speed of 8.55m/s. Align to a POS or BM (where you'll immediately bounce to another and so on to wait out your 60s timer before docking), and mine away. If you start near the rock, it takes around 20 minutes to drift too far from the rock to continue mining (without Orca range boosts). At that point you just align to another bookmark in the other direction.

    When a gank fleet starts landing on grid, the FC presses the fleet-warp button, and everybody zips off. For added safety, once you do this, assume each BM you warped to has been burned and don't reuse it.

    [Mackinaw, Web Tank]

    Mining Laser Upgrade II
    Mining Laser Upgrade II
    Mining Laser Upgrade II

    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
    'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

    Modulated Strip Miner II
    Modulated Strip Miner II

    Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
    [Empty Rig slot] <In case you like Ice.


    Another option is to shoot the Catalysts down. Attack BCs or RSEBO supported battleships according to your preference. But not being there when someone tries to shoot you works a bit better.

    That said, as Gevlon pointed out, all of this requires someone in the mining fleet to not be AFK. That's why there's the focus on tank, because that's the only protection available to the AFK miner. And for that, I say, if NO is bringing more Catalysts, upgrade your tank to a Procurer/Skiff.

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