Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Wednesday, March 20, 2013

You have desecrated the spirit of the lamp

There have been a lot of interesting comments about my "War never changes" post from last week.  But I'm most amused at how caught-out some of the HBC/CFC commenters on my blog seem to be about it.  Normally, this is a bunch that never fails to roast me over a slow fire if they think I've said something criminally stupid.  This time, their response is more along the lines of "why should we kill each other and ourselves for your amusement if we don't want to?"

And yeah, I find myself unable to counter that argument too much.  ;-)

Still, I found this anonymous comment really well said (quoted in part):
We came to EVE from our boring theme park games, where nothing really mattered, we came to EVE for the cold and harsh universe, that was so utterly unfair and unkind that it challenged and intrigued us like nothing before.

And yet, after 10 years we finally build our own theme park into EVE.

All those years of crying about CCP making the game easier and the fear that they would mold into one of those dreaded theme parks seem to have been in vain. What has EVE come to when we as players choose for ourselves that a theme park version of EVE is actually more fun than a sandbox version?
Emphasis mine.  And that's really what my post came down to: the "war games" really do nothing but eliminate the consequences of war.  While sure, yes, it's emergent game-play... it might even be fun emergent game-play (that remains to be seen).  But one thing's for sure: it's almost consequence-free game-play.  In his original post, Shadoo himself makes the point that the biggest headache of the war-games isn't going to be ship losses.  It's going to be the logistics of moving destroyed ships back into the war-games area.

Maybe it would be best to just shoot ships until they're in structure, then score them destroyed and make them warp off grid to a "destroyed ships" grid where they can be counted up by the judges before warping back to station for free, complete repairs.  You know... just like the game pieces they are.  That would solve the logistics problem.

Hey!  You!  Get away from that comment button.  I'm being sarcastic.  Really!

As for losing systems during this war game or God forbid, income?  Don't be silly.  That isn't even remotely on the table with this thing (except for the maybe-ten-moons prize).  It's just yet another little time-waster to keep the null-sec sov-bloc grunts busy while waiting for the next thing.

All in all, the whole thing smacks of Daffy Duck saying "Consequences schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich."  Let's hope that CCP responds like the Genie did, shall we?

Thanks for all the comments, everyone!


  1. I agree, CCP please over react destroy moon goo and anything else you like for this hypocrisy.

    1. Destroy is a bit of an overreaction, but yes, let's keep EVE fun-filled *and* risk-filled. Without both of those things we'll be going nowhere. Well, maybe down.

  2. Fake war can only go on for so long before Kirk beams down and destroys your disintegration booth, dooming or blessing you with a real war, full of consequence if not meaning.

    We high-sexer missioneers have fake wars all the time; it's not a terrible way to play. But will the egos of the more piratically inclined be sufficiently stoked, or their members aroused, by gentlemen's agreements? Not for long, I think. Most EVE players, even us carebears, occasionally yearn for a more genuine risk.

    1. Holy shit, you have won the internet. Kirk beams down and destroys your disintegration booth! LOL Well played, sir.

  3. We need a hidden army to come and burn these jokers out. Too bad you can't build supers outside of sov space. KILL ALL THE THINGS!!! Armageddon is the only way

  4. I am pretty new to Eve and I don't really understand so maybe someone can help.

    The big superpowers don't wish to fight because all out war would be to risky to the powerbase? They have formed themselves in to one or two massive blobs of blue in a effort to create stability correct?

    Why should this matter to the run of the mill Eve player?
    Or a better question is, what could a small band of 10-20 players do to those superpowers? I have seen talk of farms and fields but don't understand what that is....but taking 10-20 players out and raiding some farms (moon goo?) sounds like fun to me.

    1. Those are quite a few questions which could become more than one blog entry for Ripard. ;-)

      > They have formed themselves in [...] two massive blobs of blue in a effort to create stability correct?

      Yes. The coalitions are the CFC (Clusterfuck Coalition. The Goons.) and HBC (Honeybadger Coalition. TEST and Pandemic Legion.)

      > Why should this matter to the run of the mill Eve player?

      They control a few resources which are essential for the production of EVERY T2 thing. Which makes them awefully rich and has severe consequences on the price of T2 ships, modules etc. Big effect on the market as a whole.

      > [...] what could a small band of 10-20 players do to those superpowers?

      Right now? Nothing worth mentioning. You might hit a ship or three. Do maybe some damage when you hit an expensive damage that hurts an individual pilot. But we are talking about tens of thousands pilots.

      > [...] farms and fields [...]

      It's not about giving power to small entities. The idea is to make people live in 0.0 space for profit, i.e. the PvE players, often dubbed as carebears by the big powerblocs. And then the powerbloc grunts can come, pillage the farms and burn the fields, so they are kept busy.

      Mort Fiddle wrote an interesting piece about it (Ripard, too probably, but that was the first blog entry that I remembered): http://fiddlersedge.blogspot.de/2013/03/farms-and-fields-metagame.html

    2. "It's not about giving power to small entities. The idea is to make people live in 0.0 space for profit, i.e. the PvE players, often dubbed as carebears by the big powerblocs. And then the powerbloc grunts can come, pillage the farms and burn the fields, so they are kept busy."

      Even I know this won't work. Trying to force soft targets to risk themselves in such a way.
      You want to give the grunts something to do you have them protect the farms and if no one is attacking then you pillage the other farms. I say let small entities raid moons.

  5. One flaw with their plan; risk less fights are a fun diversion but let's face it, at the end of the day it's all about how much pain you inflicted on the other guy. Case in point, what's better 15-20 T1 Battleship kills or a super kill? I have faith in the Goons (that's a scary thought) that they can only take so much do EVE Disneyland before they're out with kerosene and lighters burning the place down.

    1. I wish it were so but the Goons next to PL are the most "real" risk averse group in the game now.

      Long gone are the days when a Goon ever really had to struggle or strive to survive against the griefers, scammers, gankers and wardeccers that are the real tests of an early part of most players EvE life.

      It saddens me to say that to be a Goon nowadays is to play EvE in easy mode, what else can it be when your protected from any real need to play or interact with the game save to rock up and press F1 on command since you get everything the majority of EvE players need to work for by the act of being a Goon.

      Long gone is any real will to rock the boat much less the spirit that would have torched it and laughed while it burned just for the Hell of it.

    2. You're putting way too much stock in Goons.

      If anything, they should be the first ones to go for things to return to normal. That's whay they are fighting tooth and nail against anything that may endanger their position.

      Just look at their "coverage" of CSM elections. Pathetic.

  6. . . . And that right there, is the myth about Eve. It isn't a sandbox. It's always been a theme park, but CCP and the kool aid drinkers who like to believe they're special snowflakes because they play Eve, like to proclaim to the gaming world hat it is a sandbox. Eve is chock full of theme park features, the majority, in fact. It has a few zoo features too, and enough latitude from CCP to install a fair share of emergent gameplay as well. The only sandbox part of the game is how people can figure out ways to fuck other people over, which would get them banned in other games. For a real sandbox, you'd need to go look at something like Little Big Planet, or Minecraft, or in fact just about any game out there that allows true player invented and initiated content by way of modding. Eve isn't doing anything that any one of the hundreds of MMOs, past and present haven't done before, they just have a more loyal customer base that likes to hear about their "awesomeness" more than other MMOs.

    Eve is no different than real life, because real people play the game. Null sec has stabilized into big power locks and a Cold War, because so has the real world where those people live. The wild Wild West didn't work,which is why it didn't last. Chaos doesn't work, nor does lawlessness. People won't and can't work toward a goal in chaos, so chaos will be minimized by participants of that system until they get to a point of stability where they can make progress. Whatever the claims of the null players, the big blue donut didn't want to risk losing their stuff. Test was willing to step up, but Shadoo and the goons knew that a coalition fight could turn ugly and PL as well as the goons could actually star losing thei money moons. The only way for them to get put of a situation where both coalitions could and would bring the fight, for extended periods of time, is to preach the sov grind, which has been the same grind for years, that didn't stop any of the big wars back then. Mind you, big coalitions weren't sitting on the majority of the best isk fountains back then.

    The super friends coalitions have been let out of the box. That's the most efficient way to run null, and there are no game mechanics that will change that, or prevent it from happening again.

    1. Uhm, open-worlded? Free roaming? Non-linear? I don't know your exact definition of sandbox but it doesn't seem to be in common with... well... the more common definitions of sandbox.

  7. One of the keys to EVE is that most people want to feel like they've accomplished something. Creating war games in the Donut flies in the face of that. At least back when I was a nobody grinding rocks in a Gallente backwater, I was turning the minerals into stuff that would be of use to somebody, you know?

    And there's another problem: there ought to be signs in mile-high neon letters at the entry points into sov null, reading: YOU MUST BE THIS RICH TO RIDE THIS RIDE.

    Like Mord Fiddle said, Donut gameplay is pretty much by invitation only, and I've learned the hard way that the invitation can be revoked at any time, for any reason. And if you're on the low rungs of the ladder, it's easy for the Donut to become a financial black hole. You've got to invest in doctrine ships, you've got to pay through the nose to transport your stuff, you bleed ISK to reinsure your ships every time you have to pull up stakes because someone with more political clout wants the shiny stuff your group put the time and money into upgrading to something desirable, until soon enough, you realize that not only has the threshold for "space rich" shot up like a skyrocket, but your net worth has dropped since you entered the Great Game.

    Oh, and speaking of consequences, schmonsequences: the bright future promised to us had me looking forward to flying a command ship, or a Black Ops, or a carrier. The way things are heading, I'm thinking I might have more fun flying a Constellation.

    I doubt I'm the only one, and that's not good for EVE Online.

    1. Dinsdale PirannhaMarch 21, 2013 at 8:40 AM

      You have to understand, in fact you should already know this: All this crap being spouted by the null sec oligarchs is just that: crap.

      Who benefits when there are stable income streams in nullsec?
      Who benefits when high sec income streams are decimated and that income is diverted to null sec?

      Why of course, the small cadre of leaders in null who control all the alliance wallets, and large null sec corp wallets. These are the same people who run the propaganda campaigns against high sec complaining how null needs a bigger chunk of the pie.

      Very soon, T2 production, courtesy of the goon soundwave, will be wiped out of high sec, and become a low sec/null sec only.
      Soon, courtesy of the CSM, we will see high sec mfg hammered by removing mfg slots, and a huge corresponding increase in null sec mfg slots. That will coincide of course with an large increase in mfg slot rental rates by the null sec station owners.

      This whole canard about "farms and fields" is simply a strategy to put even a larger chunk of the ingame income streams under the control of a very small group that runs null sec.

      Ask yourself, at what point does the ISK in your account become meaningless? 1 trillion, 2 trillion, 10 trillion? There is a threshold at which point no player can ever spend it, unless of course, they are converting it into real cash.

      I was hoping that now that the goon Screegs is leaving CCP, maybe they would get someone into the position that has no allegiance to goons and the rest of the null sec cadre, and maybe CCP would actually get serious about going after the real big RMT fish. But I doubt that will happen. CCP has become so overrun with null sec zealots, that the people doing the hiring are only going to hire other people with a similar view of the game.

      Instead, expect just a larger flow of ISK through the null sec power bloc wallets, and even more temptation to siphon some of that off for personal real life gain.

  8. InB4 someone calls you a carebear who advocates letting ships warp off when they get to structure.

  9. The grunts want war....the leadership does not.

    Why? Because the leaders jobs would get more difficult. They would have to actually, ya know...lead.

    But up until this point the leaders have been able to keep the pot from boiling over as they remind the grunts of their wallets and ship hangers. They point all that aggression to feed on heavily one-sided invasions that have very little risk (see PL invasion of solar pets), and now this farce.

    I believe war expands the game with new strategy/tactics/fits and new leaders. The swinging pocket watch will soon lose its attention and the grunts will break from their sleep and overcome the leaders behind the curtain. Then war will break out, and all those leaders still saying war is bad umkay, will be set aside and replaced with leaders who give their followers what they want.

    I cant wait...

    1. I hear rumors that CCP agrees with you, since war attracts new subs and peace & games apparently do not. Boredom in 0.0 has apparently resulted in an unsub trend in null for the first time in the history of the game. Look for upcoming changes to turn this around before everyone heads off to play WoT.

  10. The problem with EVE has always been that the "end game" isn't sov warfare or any of that; the end game is control of the game itself. Hats off to the cabal, they've done that. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that things have settled into a permanent rut. This game is essentially owned and operated by about 100 to 200 individuals. Everyone else is either working directly for them or providing their game content in the form of serfs or targets.

  11. Let me have men about me that are fat;
    Sleek-headed men and such as sleep o' nights:
    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
    He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. - Caesar (Julius Caesar Act I Scene II)

    Such a rich set of Corporations must have attracted the Long Con type of players by now. Those players may be happy just running skimming operations, "lost cargo" schemes, and so on. But they are in there.

  12. This is so LOL, anyways.

    They are also talking full reimbursement for any ships lost in the war games. And, ofc, no podding.

    How much more carebear can it get?

  13. From: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1434564#post1434564

    "Maybe it’s the PvPers want to turn EvE into a Theme-Park MMO, because if all the miners disappear, the only way you’re getting the gear you means is quests…er…PvE. Is that what you want? A nice purple ship with orange guns that have augment slots?"

    Things that make you go hmmm....

  14. I have been thinking and want to blame CCP for not adding content to null-sov. I believe what has happened is the income has exploded among the wallets of folks, and more and more people achieve super carriers and titans.

    So you have the games top ships, POSs, moons, mods and your quite happy in your current space is it offers everything you need to keep getting rich.

    So with all of the major sov blocs in that same setting and mindset, WTF else is there to do, fight for fun?

    This is what the war games are - fighting for the sake of fighting.

    There is not conflict because folks are too moon-drunk and wallet happy. In the efforts to keep what people have, blue status went out like free-bread.

    Why CCP would create a HUGE income stream (other than RMTs), and not at the same time create a new income sink, I don't know. But I believe that lack of balance has really helped cause null-sov as we know it.

    Clearly this does nothing for the "little guy/new blood" concerns with null today also, but without any reason to go get "more assets/resources in sov" there is no real conflict...just skirmish roams and face-rolling little alliances by the big guys who have zero risk doing it.


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