Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Wednesday, April 3, 2013

CSM doesn't matter (so we want all the seats)

This is just a quickie, but it made me laugh.  I'm going to try not to be sarcastic, but it'll be hard.  ;-)

The latest Goonswarm Federation CEO Update (reproduced here at EN24 and here at TMC(1)) includes a section on the CSM election.  I reproduce the relevant part in full.  If you've read it (including the Weaselior section), you can skip past this.
When writing on my website I aim to be equitable and restrained when commenting on the CSM, but on GOONFLEET DOT COM I can state the obvious: CSM7 has been either (charitably) a damp squib or (uncharitably) a goddamned joke – and not even a suicide joke. I'm not sure what a year of arguing with Trebor and Issler Dainze does to a man, but the short history of CSM7 seems to be summed up as 'Seleene and Trebor conspire to steal the chairmanship from Two Step in the first week of their term, succeed, and then nothing much gets done as the whole group has been poisoned with betrayal right out of the gates'. Of course, everyone involved publicly claims that the initial Chairmanship Conspiracy had no impact on CSM7 and that they're all just the best of friends, so perhaps I'm just completely wrong about both politics and psychology.

While CSM7 backers are vehemently claiming that a lack of candidates running for CSM8 is absolutely not an indication of broad disinterest in the institution (My favorite rationalization is that due to 'education' suddenly everyone realizes that the CSM is 'real work' and that thus fewer people applied to become a candidate, heh), the reality is that we can expect to see less than 30 candidates on the actual ballot for CSM8.

It is in our best interest to ensure that we vote in an organized fashion, even if it seems that CCP is shuffling the institution off towards irrelevancy. I personally believe that CCP only responded to CSM6 because of my media connections, which is one of the reasons I put so much effort into My Dumb Website™ rather than running for CSM8. That said, the most ideal setup is for us to both have influence in the media space as well as have voices on the Council, so we're running two candidates this year, Mynnna and Kaleb, as well as several CFC candidates. Because this is a STV election, our ballot will be a cross-nullsec roster of 14 names per ballot, because for some reason CCP went with STV even after we warned them that this would allow nullsec to completely rig/sweep the CSM.

Inside baseball aside, the STV change means that by working together with other entities it is possible to entirely lock out the CSM for null candidates only. Whatever you may think of the purpose of the CSM in the modern environment, making earnest eve-o pubbies lose their shit about the CSM for an entire year is well worth our most strenuous efforts. Here's a bit from Weaselior about the stakes:
Because CSM 7 wasn't great - while we should be raising the profile of Mynnna and Kaleb when we can - we can get the most excitement by focusing on how outraged highsec will be if we dominate the council.  Think of Frying Doom's signature calling CSM 6 (the last time we went all-out to dominate) a war crime, and extrapolate from there when we get even more of it.  Thanks to STV, every vote counts.  Each vote actually weakens highsec candidates by boosting 0.0's unstoppable juggernaut.  CSM 7 being somewhat of a failure has depressed the highsec vote: thanks to STV we get a baseline of our "proper" number of seats based on our proportion of votes - and if we do it right (and highsec, predictably, does it wrong) we go up from there.  There will be a torrent of rageposting if we snag over half the seats (easily doable), both guaranteed seats, then appoint 0.0 reps to every important position on the CSM.  And that's even if CSM 8 never does a damn thing.
I don't give a shit about the CSM, tl;dr me: When the election begins you will be given a list of 14 names to put onto your ballot in a priority order. Put the names in, mash button, and if enough of us do so in an organized way we'll get to enjoy an entire year of hisec pubbies crying about a total lack of CSM representation.
Essentially, this entire section of the GSF CEO Update can be summarized as "The CSM doesn't matter in the slightest (so we want to utterly control it)."  It really does make me laugh.  Anyone with the critical thinking skills of a gnat is going to immediately see through the implication that the CSM doesn't matter.  But it doesn't really matter because the rank-and-file Goon will do what he or she is told while cheering their candidates on.  Reliable intel says that null-sec diplomacy is working to ensure the top ten candidates on all null-sec ballots are the same, just in different orders depending on the exact bloc you're a member of.

The good news here is the null-sec candidates that do nothing on the CSM won't be going to Iceland because CCP gets to pick and choose who's in the room in Reyk.  Therefore, I'm sure that it's the null-sec candidates intention for "CSM 8 to never do a damn thing."  Uh huh, sure of it.  Was that a gnat I just heard?

A couple of other points here made me smile.  First, Mittens takes another large step into the public of how he felt about Seleene being elected by CSM7 as Chair.  Now "Seleene and Trebor conspired to steal the chairmanship from Two step."  It was a conspiracy, and not just any conspiracy, but a Chairmanship Conspiracy.  Pretty sure even Two step isn't taking it that personally...

Second, make no mistake here: Weaselior's expectation-setting aside, if the null-sec blocs don't take at least half the seats, they have to regard their campaign detailed above as a complete failure.  My best guess is that we're going to see something like 75000 votes, of which about 70000 will go to winning candidates.  The CFC and HBC alone control something like 50000 characters just in their main alliances.  Certainly a lot of those are alts, but they're likely reasonably well-balanced by HBC and CFC accounts with characters in neutral alliances.  Despite what's above, they don't have the votes to control everything but they certainly have the votes to take half the CSM8 seats without straining themselves too hard.  Eight or more is what they're aiming for.

And since CSM8 will elect its own officers internally, with seven or eight seats, the null-sec blocs will indeed be in a position to pick all four officers and will likely hold both "permanent seats" in Iceland as well.

Anyone still want to argue with me about how I did my endorsements, and how most of the non-bloc candidates are doing theirs?

CSM8 election should be starting any time now.  Expect a voting link as soon as I know what it is myself, please remember to vote with all of your accounts, please ask your friends to do the same, and thanks for your support!

(1) Very ironically, the EN24 version is prettier, easier to read, and is not paginated to increase site page views.


  1. My 5 accounts will all be voting non-bloc candidates. Congrats on leading the pack in endorsements BTW. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/csm8-pre-election-results-and-final-ballot/

    1. Thanks very much! It was quite a shock, I don't mind saying!

    2. Likewise, my 10 accounts will be voting for non-bloc candidates as well; before I merge them down to a more sensible 6 accounts.

    3. Lol! You and I think the same. I have been meaning to merge my 11 accounts down to 5 or 6 but I am waiting until after I use them all to vote for jester and the remaining non-bloc candidates.

    4. My six will vote non bloc as well.

  2. Congratz on geting 500 more endorsements then the second most endorsed candidate
    lol I sort of doubt that's traslate to you get 3x the votes of Mynna did in the real election like you did in the pre-election so take nuthing for granted & campaign your butt off

    1. As I said on the other post, thank you! That was quite a shock! Obviously, I'm thrilled and humbled by the show of support.

  3. "Essentially, this entire section of the GSF CEO Update can be summarized as "The CSM doesn't matter in the slightest (so we want to utterly control it)." It really does make me laugh. Anyone with the critical thinking skills of a gnat is going to immediately see through the implication that the CSM doesn't matter."

    Your objection is semantical and not useful.

    Let's be realistic: Every single time mittens talks about something, he says "This doesn't really matter, but we're goons, so let's win anyway, in a fun 'dont give two shits' way", and if you don't, I'll kick your ass to the curb no foolin'. It's not meaningful to analyze this with critical thinking skills, gnatlike or otherwise. This is some kind of weird gooncode that they're always using: Burn Jita: highsec pubbies don't matter, but let's all go @#$@# with them anyway. Sov grinding campaign in nullsec: Sov grinding is meaningless shit, we're goons so let's do it and win anyway! (and if you don't you'll be kicked from the CFC) CSM8: CSM doesn't matter, let's get all the seats! Or we're failures. etc.

    It all looks exactly the same to me. It's goonlogic(tm) propaganda, but it's self-aware meta-propaganda, making fun of itself while simultaneously following through on every promise. To analyze it without looking at it through this weird meta perspective is to doom yourself to be neither right or wrong, but simply outside the curve. It's goons being goons. Grr goons.

    1. If that were truly true and Goons were being truly Goony, all the Goons would vote for LOL-worthy candidates, not real ones. They'd send the most amazing mouth-breather they could find to Iceland.

    2. Nope. They will send people that will make the pubbies scream.

      If James315 had stayed in, he would have won on the crest of a goon-slide.

    3. You've completely missed the point, unfortunately.

      "If that were truly true and Goons were being truly Goony, all the Goons would vote for LOL-worthy candidates, not real ones. "

      ? Are you stuck in 2006? If you want to define "Goony" in a meaningful way, it should be based upon what the Goons are ACTUALLY LIKE-which is why I based my definition by analyzing their behavior in a number of different examples from the past few years. You've defined "truly Goony" in a way which means that the Goons are themselves NOT Goony. Even if we grant this mind-bendingly strange proposition, your response is still nonsensical, because 'I' am certainly not using language in that way, which makes your response to me fallacious equivocation. So to be perfectly clear and avoid equivocation, I'll restate my point without using any such terms:

      I am saying that speaking whimsically but with a well-defined goal is actually completely typical of the Goons over the past few years, as seen by their statements and actions in various nullsec wars, burn Jita, ice interdiction, etc. Thus, this is not an instance of GSF leadership trying to pull an unusual fast one on the rank and file, or anyone, but just them using their normal meta-propaganda techniques like they always do. Contradiction in a logical argument is a flaw. Intentional contradiction in a rap song or a Shakespeare sonnet is a prominent feature of those genres. GSF meta-propaganda is much more like a rap song than a logical argument. You have to put a little effort into figuring out the message that is being conveyed, or you'll miss the point and find the contradiction quite amusing, as you have and do. Perhaps that's fine, you seem to enjoy being amused by it. It seems, however, that if you want to oppose them, you should at least put enough effort in to understand what they're actually saying.

    4. One has only to turn on a TV in America and wait five minutes for an entitled, right-wing hater to appear and begin espousing conspiracy theories concerning The Plot to Wipe Out GOP and Their Familes, and Their Families' Guns, and Gay-Marry Us All.

      It may be stoopidcrazy, but it works--therefore Mittani uses it. Of *course* it's a conspiracy. The tactic may not survive three seconds of rational thought, but as an emotional rallying cry, it'll motivate Gooners well enough.

    5. Pubbies scream? Trask, your own fearless leader has largely abandoned the official forums. Note the lack of a Jita Park post for his campaign. Or his preference for tmdc for his latest grand pulpit lecture. Does anybody that actually matters within the game take any note of what is said there or even visit. (other than to check out a developer blog or patch update). The same shitposters that made a wasteland of COAD, moved to GD poisoning it with same vitrol. Count the names, (you may have to remove shoes and socks) - but its roughly the same 20 posters ad nauseum unable to move on from the cyclic of pirate vs industralist.

      from an old horror show to this new one: in the forum, no one can hear you scream.

      As for a null dominated CSM. Predicted, and STV has next to bugger all to do with it. Spread 50,000 votes across 14 candidates manually is well within the organisation of the blocs. The only difference is that CCP now spreads them automatically.

      What is amusing is the ongoing ignore to WH and lo-sec. but I guess a player like you Trask or Mittans, blinded to anything else; has dismissed them as irrelevant. I wonder what they think about that?

    6. Rammstein has it.

      Back before there were Goons, when Something Awful was just getting off the ground, the tag line was "ha ha, only serious."

      More than 10 years later, that still describes Goons to a T.

      If you want to read it another way, Mittens is saying that CSM7 is "worthless" because the Goons aren't guiding it (this is a fairly common refrain on the EVE boards). Once it's been properly packed and directed, it may achieve the ~glory~ that CSM6 did. If Mittens and the senior Goons thought that CSM was intrinsically worthless, mynnna/corestwo wouldnt be running.

    7. Wow, if I had an award to give Rammstein, I would. I hadn't thought of Goonspeak in the way he describes, but it really helps to explain some of the odder rhetorical techniques that they use in their propaganda. A+ would read again.

  4. Ripard for CSM Chair? Yes, please.

    1. No thank you.

    2. "Ripard for secretary!" and I will be sold.

  5. I was meaning to ask now, i understand how the system works in general and the concept of STV, but i don't understand how it will be determined at which point a vote would be wasted and should go to the next candidate on the list. Is it an arbitrary number or is it more of a formula where as long as the guy you voted for is in the top 14, the vote gets passed on? But then does it mean that as the votes trickle in for different "slabs", some votes (/portions of votes) will be passed down, then back up as needed ?

    1. In the general sense:

      Votes that a candidate "needs" stay with the candidate. The process runs in rounds. Each round, the system determines how many votes are "needed". Candidates at the top then sacrifice any votes over what they "need" to the candidates lower on their endorsement chains.

      After THAT process is done, the system then checks to see if 14 people have the necessary needed votes yet. If not, the system throws out the candidate with the lowest vote total and the process starts all over again with a new round. During the next round, all of those person's votes fall to their #2, #3, #4, or whatever choices.

  6. lets start with a little zen for masses.

    "if someone types on the internet, and no reads it, have they posted". (aka tree falls in the forest). the reader can draw their own conclusion, but my answer is no.

    [quote]and if enough of us do so in an organized way we'll get to enjoy an entire year of hisec pubbies crying about a total lack of CSM representation[/quote]

    Linking these rather opposing rationales is, about 20% of the game population bothers with the Eve-O forums. So discounting null alliance players or Eve-Uni. How many players are even aware of the CSM or The Mittani? Not a lot of hot rage left over in the cold light of statisics.

    And I will close this with: that humble pie last year must have really left a lingering bitter taste in his mouth.

  7. This comment has been removed by the author.

  8. Congrats on absolutely crushing the pre-election- looking forward to seeing you on CSM8!


  9. Dinsdale PirannhaApril 3, 2013 at 8:55 PM

    This is all truly funny, in such a sad sad way. I get a 90 ban on the forums for inferring that HBC Dolan handed the null sec cartels the CSM, yet this is precisely what the null sec cartels and you are saying. I am pretty sure they will end up with 10 of the 14 seats. Not all of those 14 are running as null sec candidates, or blatant sociopaths like Monk, but I am pretty confident that there will be a couple supposedly non-null-sec zealots who will reveal their true colours after this farce is finished. Whatever devastation that is wrought on high sec with Odyssey will be nothing like what the Dec and summer 2014 releases will do.

    People accuse me of wearing tin foil, then you post what the null sec zealots themselves think, and it is just as horrible as anything I have envisioned.

    Oh, and yes, you are on my very short list of people to vote for. While I don't believe you are a friend of high sec, I don't believe you want to burn it to the ground either. I can only hope you make it, and CCP listens to some reason when faced with the rising chorus of "kill high sec".

    But in the end, high sec income will be turned into a wasteland in the next 3 releases, since the null sec zealots already placed inside the CCP dev and game design groups will work closely with the RMT lords in the null sec cartels to ensure that null sec gains an even larger piece of the Eve economic pie.

    1. I think the true risk does not lie in Hisec being nerfed into oblivion, or burned to the ground. The CSM cannot force CCP into anything. The best they can do is raise support from the playerbase to push issues.

      The real risk is that CCP will come to view the CSM as what it is when filled with self-interested candidates- utterly pointless. It will most definitely alienate anyone outside the voting blocs, that small percentage that were aware of it and weren't disillusioned already. Worst case scenario? CCP ends the CSM program, citing that it is no longer providing sufficient value to justify the costs- and they wouldn't be wrong.

      At the very least, I don't see the STV system coming back next year. It is solely responsible for the next CSM sizing up to be a complete farce. I actually feel sorry for you Jester, as it looks like you may be a part of it.

      I will be voting your way and encouraging all my EVE friends to do the same, but I do not relish the thought of inflicting a room full of idiots snickering about how they metagamed their way into a free holiday in Iceland on you.

  10. Jester, you don't really understand what the goons are about.

    They know the CSM is useless.

    But because highsec pubbies think it is important, they want to take it away from them and break it.

    This is about pubbie tears.

    1. I thought it was about getting the players a voice in CCP? If its about that, i suppose , in the end, we can have no more CSM.
      If the idea is to destroy eve, then go to it.

      I like playing the game. I think this is a little childish.

    2. The not-caring/tears is how the leadership will sell it to rank and file goons, of course, and eager goons will repeat that stance.

    3. If "high sec pubbies" think it's so important, why don't they vote? They are, in general, one of the most oblivious demographics in the game--even to the extent that, as you have probably experienced firsthand, a great many of them don't even know the rules of the game they're just barely playing. Why would they care about CSM? There's no evidence from any prior elections that they do, just the same 20 or so people on the EVE boards who don't know what a sandbox is.

      If there's anything the Goons want to take and break, it's Wright-STV. They know exactly why CCP implemented it, they don't like it, and they want to send a message to CCP that they'll bend and stretch and distort it until FPTP looks good again. Also, they really want a Goon in the chairman's seat again. If they have to pack the council to make that happen then that's what they'll do.

    4. Agent Trask, Let me educate you a bit son, you've drank some poisonous Kool-Aide..

      The Reason the Goons want the CSM so bad is not for the simple reason of "Pubbie Tears"....its power and control. To say anything else would be misleading at best and dishonest at worst.

      If the CSM was as useless as you say, we wouldn't have a list of who to vote for and in what order of which there is NO dissension between the candidates which BTW Mittens can stuff up his ass...I'm voting for Ripard.

      Goons ARE an important feature of this game, but after watching Mittens Meta-Game as of late, he doesn't deserve the support for him or his Ilk. If you want to talk about "known-knowns" lets talk about why there is a stagnant 0.0 situation now...its not for some far-reaching strategic goal....its because of RMT and the desire to keep that train a-going for as long as possible.

      Mittens strategy in a nutshell - Give Bread and Circuses, never log on and explain your actions, ignore, beat or humiliate any opposition with support of button-mashing blind followers via ingame or website, let TEST implode b/c they are doing nothing either....collect Money.

      Rommel and Guderian this guy isn't.

      At the end of the day, most EVE players are typical Voters...voting with what looks pretty rather than what should be done to fix problems.

  11. allow me to coin the phrase now: didn't want that seat anyway.


  12. I find it safest to assume everything Mittens says (now or at any other time) is agitprop.

  13. The worst thing that you could do to the Goons is give them what they want, complete control. Give them what they really want, a fight.

  14. Malcanis is of the Initiative. (HBC alliance) and present on the HBC/CFC ballot Poetic found (http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.hu/2013/04/the-nullsec-bloc-ballot.html)

    Do you still endorse him? (http://jestertrek.blogspot.hu/2013/03/my-endorsements-for-csm8.html)

    My 11 votes go for non-block candidates too!

  15. On a CSM related front, good news. Fon Revedhort has been disqualified . https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2832691#post2832691

  16. "they have to regard their campaign detailed above as a complete failure."
    Nope. This is one big giant experiment/dice roll. As with all things we do, it is a comedy quest gimmick. I would know, it's my project.


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