Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Wednesday, May 15, 2013

Fit of the Week: All neut Armageddon

I've done Armageddons twice before, but this time I want to do something topical and specialized.  Rote Kapelle has been getting bitched at by Clockwork Pineapple and I've been getting bitched at in my recent Gnosis post about our occasional use of triage carriers.  I'll say here what I've said in that argument: Rote gangs are typically so small (nearly always 20 or less, and often less than a dozen) that every single pilot has to provide maximum results.  That applies whether the pilot is doing special teams, DPS, or logistics.  If we're putting 15 guys in space and we want to armor brawl, we simply cannot afford three Guardians.  That's 20% of our DPS gone, which for us is usually the difference between being able to scrape together a chance at winning a fight and saying home.

That usually means one guy, often dual-boxing a Damnation or something, sitting at home in a triage carrier waiting to jump in if we get a major fight.

Where I'm getting bitched at is the impression that triage carriers constitute a somehow unfair or unbeatable advantage even if your gang has small numbers itself.  And that idea is so silly it really deserves a direct response.  Unlike a large fleet of supers, to which the only counter is more supers, small groups of capital ships are relatively easy kills even with relatively small groups of sub-caps.  Sure, it's easy to say "Jester, you idiot, a triage Archon can easily tank 17000 DPS for the five minutes it's going to be in triage.  That's like 40 armor HACs.  Are you calling that a small gang?" and on paper if you take on a triage carrier's tank directly, that's absolutely true.

But who says you have to take the tank on directly?  That's where something like this comes in:

[Armageddon, All neut]
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit I
Co-Processor II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


It's sorely tempting to believe that only Bhaalgorns are capable of neut tactics, but it's incredibly untrue.  The large sov-holding alliances like neut Tempests and use them to devastating effect in large groups against capital ships of all kinds.  But I like the "Geddon."  It's cheap, versatile, and devastating in this fitting.

The core of the ship are a full rack of heavy neuts and a pair of heavy cap boosters.  Step one, put those eight neuts on the triage carrier of your choice, cycled individually every three seconds until all eight are running.  Step two, have the rest of your gang continue to apply DPS pressure against whatever the carrier is repping.  Capital remote reppers are incredibly cap-intensive.  If you have spare DPS, put a bit on the carrier too so that it has to both self-rep and keep its gang alive.  In less than two minutes, the triage carrier's cap will be bone dry.

And that gives you three minutes to kill the thing while it doesn't have the cap to run any of its self-reppers.  It won't tank 17000 DPS.  It won't tank any DPS at all.  And if the triage pilot is dumb enough to have active hardeners fit, you'll cut through him that much faster.  During this three minutes, any other enemy repair ships on the field are irrelevant: under triage, the carrier can't accept any help.

So your big challenge is keeping your neut Geddon alive.  This is actually not too difficult owing to a strong tank with 30000 armor HP before any fleet or command ship bonuses.  Under a Damnation, this Geddon fit has about 188k EHP and fantastic resists for a T1 ship to everything except kinetic damage and very decent resists against that (71%).  So once the enemy triage carrier goes down, make killing blaster boats a priority but chances are you were going to do that anyway.

A neut Geddon is also quite effective at breaking other types of enemy logistics.  For instance, a single Geddon will snap a three Guardian cap chain in five or six cycles depending on the skills of the enemy pilots, a little over one minute.  And even the Geddon's current neut range is pretty good for this kind of work, at 25km.  But we'll get to that in a second.

Finally, even with a full neut fitting, the Geddon provides some damage.  I haven't included it in the fit above, but feel free to load a full set of Gardes for about 300 DPS, or you can go with a full set of heavies or a mix of Hammerheads and Warriors, or Hammerheads and EC drones.  Still, for this kind of ship, best to go with the highest DPS you can and then just make sure your insurance is up to date.  ;-)

And by the way, everything this ship does to carriers, it does even more to dreadnoughts.  For instance, if an enemy Moros with a single self-rep doesn't shut down its guns, it will be capped out in about two minutes... with dual cap boosters running full time.  If it hasn't fit dual cap boosters, it will be cap dry significantly faster.

When Odyssey drops, the Geddon is getting a working over that is going to decimate its current role as an Amarr gunship.  Still, for the neut role, that's not a tragedy at all.  The upcoming changes include bonuses to neut range (to about 38km), drone damage (to about 450 DPS with a single set of Gardes), drone bay size (which is being expanded tremendously), and cap (which is also being increased tremendously).  With a nice increase in CPU, there's even an excellent chance you'll be able to fit a Drone Damage Amplifier to this fit starting with Odyssey.  The only downside is the loss of a single high slot, which is going to make a single neut Geddon a lot more twitchy proposition when facing a triage carrier: it's going to take the ship about 2.5 minutes to cap out its target, which means you'll need comparably more DPS (or a second neut ship) to kill it.  Geddons are also going to be more expensive to construct come Odyssey, which is why the ship is being speculated on so heavily right now.

It's tempting to look at a triage carrier as an unfair escalation requiring a capital response of your own.  And if there are two or three of them, sure that might be the case.  But for a single carrier or a small group of dreads, a neut ship can be a great response.  It's not a ship or a fitting that you need very often, but when the occasion calls for it you'll find it a very handy response.(1)  So enough with the bitching, OK?  ;-)

Happy neuting!


All Fits of the Week are intended as general guidelines only.  You may not have the skills needed for this exact fit.  If you do not, feel free to adjust the fit to suit to meet your skills, including using meta 3 guns and "best named" defenses and e-war.  Ships can also be adjusted to use faction or dead-space modules depending on the budget of the pilot flying it.  Each FOTW is intended as a general guide to introduce you to concepts that will help you fit and to fly that particular type of ship more aggressively and well.


(1) P.S. Virtually the same fitting makes an excellent "all smart bomb" fitting, by the way.  I leave the changes as an exercise for the student, but you should find them very rapidly.

16 comments:

  1. Wait, somebody called you out for deploying a single triage carrier rather than cheering because you gave them such a fat target?

    But I have always been on the side with the neuts, so that colors my view no doubt.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Sadly after the new patch geddon will not be a cheap throw away ship anymore :( But, five heavy neut drones maybe?

    ReplyDelete
  3. I too take double-plated battleships on roaming gangs

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Keep in mind that most armor BSs just use the 10-second MWD-align trick.

      Delete
  4. Yes have purshased roughly 100 geddons and stackes of other tier 1.
    The gedden is my fav and I might keep 20 for myself and to hand out to my freinds when cap threats present themselfs.

    Bummer about the bhaalgorns they might become lesser popular.


    -silence ikillyouu

    ReplyDelete
  5. For the most part, "clockwork" in your post = pbump, there were perhaps 1-2 occasions when we as a whole were butthurt about rote using triage, when triage was brought in for a fleet that already had logi.

    As for your proposed counter though,it sounds fine and dandy except that it would involve either having a titan permanently on standby to bridge in one or two of these, or only undocking in T3/armor bs fleets if we suspected a fight with rote was going to happen (why yes I'll bring an armor bs to a kiting tier 3 bc roam).

    Even if a curse could on paper fill the same role, it would involve parking a ship with 40-50k ehp 40km off the anchor of a 15 man gang, so unless we went the i-red route and brought 6 scims its lifespan would be measured in picoseconds.

    ReplyDelete
  6. You should be able to tank ~14k dps and still repp with one rr or tank half that and repp with 2, for over 5mins. If u dont you either didnt fitt right (t2 ccs and faction cpr) or you forgott ur standart mindflood.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Indeed, it takes quite a bit to neut a well fit carrier dry

      and this is not enough by itself, 3...thats a different matter

      talismans also help

      Delete
  7. I like your FOTWs (and regularly follow them), but I have to argue this one. I am surprised you never mentioned the Abaddon as an alternative. The only things this does better than an Abaddon is DPS (317 {ogre IIs} vs 210 {mix of drones} w/ maxed skills), and speed (791 vs 668 w/ maxed skills). Seeing that the point of this ship is Neuting a carrier/dread, the dps is a bonus, and the speed doesn't matter since it is a stationary target. If the ship you have available is a geddon, have at it, but if you want a dedicated neut ship, get an abaddon (and no, I haven't looked at the price difference).

    Comparison (Abaddon fit at the bottom)
    Stats: Abaddon Armageddon Tempest
    EHP 240k 137k 117K
    Armor HP 43.5k 30.8k 23.7k
    Low resist 71.9%(KN) 62.6%(KN) 62.6(KN)
    DPS 210 317 210
    CAP Stable* 1m 44s 5m 45s**
    Speed 668 m/s 791 m/s 983 m/s

    *This is if you put a 3rd heavy cap booster in your extra mid slot (you may want something else for fleet)

    **This is with an empty mid slot, and an additional medium cap booster (biggest weakness of this ship is that you have to use fitting rigs to make it work or use less neuts...)

    [Abaddon, All neut]
    Damage Control II
    1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
    1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
    1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
    Armor Explosive Hardener II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

    Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
    Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
    Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
    Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

    Large Trimark Armor Pump I
    Large Trimark Armor Pump I
    Large Trimark Armor Pump I


    Ogre II x2
    Hammerhead II x2
    Hobgoblin II x1

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Took another look at the Armageddon fit. Below are the adjustments I would make to it. The reason: Tank is better with only a .3 second reduction in align time, and tank is neut resistant. You do lose 3% resist in explosive, but it is still within .2 of your highest resist (which BTW is 2% higher than it was in the previous fit) - Even with these changes, I would still take the Abaddon over this for Neut duty (but it is closer)

      Stats: EHP-152k/Armor HP-34.7k/low resist-64.5(KN)/DPS-317/CAP-1m 44s/speed-803 m/s

      [Armageddon, All neut v2]
      Damage Control II
      1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
      1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
      1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
      Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
      Energized Explosive Membrane II
      Adaptive Nano Plating II
      Adaptive Nano Plating II

      Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
      Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
      Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
      Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

      Large Ancillary Current Router I
      Large Trimark Armor Pump I
      Large Trimark Armor Pump I


      Ogre II x5

      Delete
  8. Look what you made me do Ripard. I made a Blog account. Ugh.


    Two things in your post jump out at me.

    'That applies whether the pilot is doing special teams, DPS, or logistics. If we're putting 15 guys in space and we want to armor brawl, we simply cannot afford three Guardians. That's 20% of our DPS gone, which for us is usually the difference between being able to scrape together a chance at winning a fight and saying home.'


    When did the mindset of, 'win or stay home' become the Modus operandi for a PvP focused alliance. That strikes me as rather 'limp'. Killboard efficiency and e-rep be damned, if you're only taking fights you know you can win, what does that make you?



    And then you go one to suggest that a hostile gang should not flee at the sight of a triage carrier, but instead stay and fight. What's more, they should primary said carrier because neuts will carry the day? Who are you kidding? In a 20v20 brawl you want the enemy gang to come off their primary and switch to a carrier? While Rote guts them?

    I just don't see where you're coming from on this.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Couple of issues here Jester. I was in the Gal Mil gang you fought in your Gnosis fleet. You outshipped us. You killed or damped out our logi. You killed all our target callers. And you STILL dropped an archon on us! Two, you talk about losing 20% of your dps in a small gang of 20 peopleif you bring guardians. We do this all the time in the gangs I fly in (which are generally in the 10-20 range, same as yours). logis are a force multiplier. We accept the lower dps because our logi allows us to stay on field longer and apply the dps we do have. We don't just not bring logi and then drop a carrier because we all wanted to fly dps and we attack targets that e actually have a chance of breaking with the dps we do have. If we didn't do this, we'd never undock because we don't have people permanently sitting around on a dual boxed link ship/carrier. I don't blame you for having triage on standby at all. But if you are going to roam around fac war low sec and actually want a fight with us, try bringing something you're willing to lose and don't drop a triage on us when you're WINNING the fight.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This. In the long run, it'll cost you a lot of good fights.

      Delete
    2. IDD, but count up the DPS of your fielded fleet in question. "It's Just T1 cruisers" isn't a super argument when you have that size gang full of gank vexors and thoraxes.

      I called triage in that fight specifically because I wanted it over, and I wanted it over fast. My logi was collapsing, and the potential for hostile reship was simply too great where we were (galfed space).

      Ultimately, that was a real marginal engagement without comping more logi or bringing in triage, the alternative would have been "don't engage", based on the numbers of pilots in space.

      Delete
  10. We would sometimes bait foolish carrier pilots in the E-Uni lowsec camps. The key was always the neuts...

    http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12325222

    ReplyDelete

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