Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Wednesday, July 31, 2013

FOTW: L4 Navy Raven v. Navy Scorpion

I'm going to wrap up battleship month around here with an amusing duel between L4 mission solo masters, the Raven Navy Issue and the Scorpion Navy Issue.

Let's start with this: if you're wanting to do L4 missions solo, you now can't go wrong with either of these ships.  Both of them do great damage, tank like beasts, can tune their damage and their tank to any kind of rats you desire, and can hit both short- and long-range rats with full DPS regardless of the amount of attention you're willing to pay to the mission.  The Mittani once only semi-joked that EVE players should judge their income not in ISK/hour but in ISK/effort.  On that scale, both of these ships are low-effort, high-ISK winners.  They're both expensive, and worth it.

But which one is better?

It turns out you can slip a piece of notebook paper between their differences for this application.  Let's start with the current champion, the Navy Raven (both ships are tanked and weaponed to attack Sansha Nation or Blood Raider rats):

[Raven Navy Issue, L4 Solo]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I
Power Diagnostic System II

Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Shield Boost Amplifier II
100MN Afterburner II

Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x5


The Navy Raven is the king of low-effort L4 solo'ing since the changes made not too long ago wherein rats attack drones with gleeful abandon.  CCP Rise's changes to the ship have only made it better.  In particular, the new explosion radius bonus is fantastic for PvE and cuts the explosion radius of cruise missiles to 180m which means full damage to rat battle cruisers and more damage to rat cruisers.  It was fairly typical to fit Warhead Rigor rigs to missile ships but the Navy Raven doesn't need them.  You also no longer need to compromise in the mids: you can fit a full tank, target painter, and propulsion mod (or Sensor Booster).

CPU remains extremely tight compared to the previous model and you'll have to buy an eighth Cruise Missile Launcher (expensive if you use faction ones like the recommended fit).  You'll also probably have to use at least the two shown faction Ballistic Control Systems to make the fit work, plus you'll need to train Weapon Upgrades V.  You can add a third faction BCS if you wish, but it only adds about 10 DPS, so it probably isn't worth it.

Before I get into specifics about flying this ship, let's bring up the challenger, a comparable Scorpion Navy Issue fit:

[Scorpion Navy Issue, L4 Solo]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I
Power Diagnostic System II

Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Shield Boost Amplifier II
100MN Afterburner II

Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5


As you can see, the fit is nearly identical in every respect.  The Scorp only needs six CMLs, adds a utility high slot and an additional mid slot, but loses the explosion radius and missile velocity bonuses.  As a result, SNIs generally compensate with a Rigor rig or two; two of them make its explosion radius virtually equal to the RNI.  The Scorpion also has a slightly smaller drone bay.

The ships have one thing in common: they both tank like beasts.  The Scorp's base tank is much better, and its resilience is ridiculous.  If you're a nervous sort of solo missioner -- and with the cost of these ships, that's understandable! -- the Scorp is custom-built for you.  The Raven's tank, though not quite as good, is less susceptible to cap pressure.  The Scorp needs to pick a rat and NOS it to ensure cap to run its Shield Booster.  The Raven does not.  (Alternately you can fit a Cap Booster with either ship in case of dire emergencies, though you'll probably sacrifice your afterburner to do so.)  But overall, the Scorp has the better tank.  And if you use faction CMLs, the Scorp will be significantly cheaper.

The Raven's advantages are DPS (it has 840 or so, compared to the Scorpion's 800), an additional flight of light drones (which can be used as armor maintenance bots to keep the ship's other drones repaired), and quickness.  The Raven has both a higher base speed (important in acceleration gate missions) and higher agility.  The Raven also has a much higher alpha strike with a single volley of missiles, making it more possible to one-volley rat ships off the field.  If you're a more aggressive sort of L4 missioner, the Raven is your boat.

Flying the ships themselves is virtually identical in all respects.  The Scorp will have to pick a target within 25km to leech capacitor from, but both ships have a target painter, shield booster, and light or medium drones to manage.  Short version: turn on hardeners, pick rats, hit F1 until they disappear, pick more rats.  Use your afterburner as needed to traverse acceleration gates.  Start pulsing your shield booster as needed as your shields drop through 50% or so.  In the unlikely event you start running out of cap before everything is dead, warp off and try again.  It's pretty low effort.

The major downside to these ships is of course the expense!  As of this writing, either hull will cost you about a half billion ISK, the faction CMLs are 60 million each, the faction BCSs are 90 million each, and the faction XLSB (which given the DPS you do is probably optional) is about 180.  You can and should go with meta or T2 gear if your wallet won't stand the strain, though your DPS will suffer accordingly if you do.  Of course, meta or T2 gear will also make you less of a gank target, so it's a trade-off that each missioner has to decide for him- or herself.  One thing is certain, though: the RNI or SNI hull itself are a very large upgrade from the base Raven hull for missioning, so if nothing else you should definitely start there.  For many players, it's their first truly expensive purchase.

Happy missioning!


All Fits of the Week are intended as general guidelines only.  You may not have the skills needed for this exact fit.  If you do not, feel free to adjust the fit to suit to meet your skills, including using meta 3 guns and "best named" defenses and e-war.  Ships can also be adjusted to use faction or dead-space modules depending on the budget of the pilot flying it.  Each FOTW is intended as a general guide to introduce you to concepts that will help you fit and to fly that particular type of ship more aggressively and well.

29 comments:

  1. Are you using faction weapons of CPU reasons? Becausr the DPS will suffer from it compared to TII ones, not even considering TII missiles.

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  2. Why the heck did the SNI price jump like that? I bought one 6 months ago for half the price.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The price spike comes from a combination of factors, all tying into Odyssey.

      1) The build price for the T1 Scorpion shot up with the T1 battleship tiericide. There's no SNI blueprint; every SNI in the game was converted from a T1 Scorpion.

      2) Conversion of those T1 Scorpions got more expensive as well; the LP price shot up from 150,000 LP to 250,000 LP. And just for added kicks, the only people who can do those conversions are members of the Caldari militia, through State Protectorate.

      3) Changes to the SNI with Odyssey, combined with the cruise missile buff, cranked up demand for the SNI at the same time the price floor shot up. Prior to Odyssey, a straight-up comparison between the SNI and the Navy Raven was a no-brainer; now ... well, look at the article. :)

      (And Jester ... these FOTW's are a godsend, but why the CN XLSB instead of the Dread Guristas? The CN costs sixty percent more for literally zero extra performance...)

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    2. Demand. The changes to cruise missiles came in with Odessey. The SNI prices in Jita peaked at 570 million just after the expansion release.

      Delete
  3. i cant remember his name, but there was once a caldari pve expert in eve who was pretty famous when i started eve arpund 2008.

    he was posting lots of high quality research about caldari pve ship performance in the official forums.
    one of his threads was about "what is the best for max isk/hours, standard missiles, navy missiles or t2 missiles"

    the result was that faction ammo is the worst idea for pve, but t2 missiles generate way more isk/hour even with the higher price then standard missiles.

    so wouldnt it make more sense to fit t2 launcher on high end pve ships?

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  4. edit: Gul Rashen was the guys name

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  5. would an acolyte or infiltrator a better drone choice considering the ship if fitted to fight sansha or blood raiders?

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    Replies
    1. Hobgoblins and Hammerheads are better due to their higher damage modifiers while still hitting low resist type for sansha and blood raiders.

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    2. typically no, because Amarr combat drones are very weak.

      Acolyte II: speed 4560, damage x1.38
      Hob II: speed 3360, damage x1.92
      Hornet II: speed 3840, damage x1.74
      Warrior II: speed 5040, damage x1.56

      The time to target difference between Acolytes and Hobs isn't that big, but the damage difference is huge, typically more than the EM vs Thermal resistance will make up for. Warriors vs Angels, Hornets vs Guristas (though hobs will work), Hobs vs everything else.

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    3. Never, the higher DPS on gallente drones in the second best damage type (therm) as well as the fact that they are almost as fast means that they are always a better choice than amarr drones. As far as drones go, the Curator II is the only amarr drone in the game worth training and using. On the flip side, for explosive/kinetic missions always go with minmatar drones over caldari drones. There is no caldari drone that's ever worth training or using besides EC-XXX.

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    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    5. The Tengu is at least 3 months more training time than these Battleships. I'll check in evemon when I have a chance, but I think you can start flying one of these boats with just a short amount of training time. It's even shorter now that ccp reduced all the prerequisite ship skills from 4 to 3, so the only level V skills you need for these are Weapon upgrades V, some drone and shield skills and a couple of fitting skills that should cover it. (100 MN Afterburner II seems like a little overkill to me).

      Delete
    6. Yeah, the Tengu is more training intensive on paper, but it's worth every minute of it. In addition to level 4's you can also use identically fit Tengu's for DED sites (rated and unrated), belt and anom ratting, WH anoms, and pick up incursion fleets.

      On paper the Tengu looks sub-par, particularly on the tank. However, in game it out tanks battleships with speed and signature size alone allowing it to out-tank even my Vargur and Golem (120M SP toon with Maurauder V).

      Sure you can bling you BS and get some really nice results but at the end of the day, they are just level 4 missions and if your spending more than 1.5 B on a ship for level 4 missions your doing it wrong. Spend that isk on an incursion boat instead (the fits are different) and literally double your isk per hour.

      Delete
  6. I'm a fan of the cap-boosted Scorpion. Restricting to T2, a large cap booster II can keep a XL shield booster II fully capped for several minutes of full 1300+ DPS burst tank (against specific damage), enough to survive just about anything a L4 will throw at you.

    Though a Navy Scorp can often handle incoming damage just fine using passive tank and the occasional shield boost from base capacitor (tip: given a choice, run your cap down to 25% before your shields, as cap -> hp recharges faster than just shield hp). Swapping the (fitting-expensive) large cap booster for an AB and NOS might give you enough damage and cap mitigation that you don't need the booster.

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  7. yeah about that tech2 launchers and missiles? wouldn't precision and fury missiles do better than faction?

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  8. T2 cruise missiles do a lot more damage, you should use them against battleships, and fit either 3x rigor mods or 2x rigor 1x flare. I forget which is optimal. The launchers also cost way less.

    You should also consider an MJD - because range doesnt matter to you, but does to the rats, why not sit at 100km? You don't need as much tank because you aren't getting hit as much, and then you jump to the next acceleration gate at your leisure.

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  9. Did I miss a change? I'm sure rats have a capacitor capacity of 1 and therefore can't be NOSed.

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    Replies
    1. No change, the npc ships have 1 cap and its always 100% full. So you can use a Nos to pull the full amount of cap from any rat.

      Delete
    2. Have you/Ripard actually done it though? I'm pretty sure NOS can't vamp energy that isn't there in the target ship, so it will transfer 1 capacitor per cycle. Under the current mechanics, NOS will not reduce the target ships capacitor below the attacking ships percentage level, so you won't even suck that 1 cap. That will change in Odyssey 1.1, however 1 cap per cycle is effectively nothing.

      I ask because back in the day when I used to mission run and try to NOS, my cap would go flying below peak recharge when using a NOS on rats, even when EFT told me I should be stable.

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    3. I've actually done it. It was pretty typical for me when I ran incursions to take my desperately cap-unstable Nightmare into them and pull the cap I needed from the Sansha rats themselves.

      In particular, this was a very useful tactic in mom sites, where I'd just latch on to the mom for the whole site and draw the cap I needed from her. ;-)

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    4. Hmm wonder what was going on with that old fit then. On a related note, will this still work with the new NOS mechanics?

      Delete
  10. I'm not entirely sure why you tried to shoehorn in faction launchers. Was it the 16 days of training time? This is how you fit a budget Navy Raven:

    [Raven Navy Issue, better]
    Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    Ballistic Control System II
    Internal Force Field Array I

    Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    EM Ward Field II
    Sensor Booster II
    Shield Boost Amplifier II
    Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster

    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile

    Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
    Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
    Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I

    290 more missile DPS, 300 dps less tank but it lasts 1 minute longer, and 350mil cheaper. Heck, with the money you save you can invest into some deadspace hardeners and make up for the difference.

    With the Rigor, you no longer need the target painter, which is total waste of time when it comes to L4s. Once you have T2 launchers, Javelins clean up anything small (no more waiting on an incomplete painter cycle). The SEBO lets you really use the range of cruises, and pop in a scan res if you're fighting a bunch of small stuff. Frig lock time goes from 15 seconds down to 10.

    There is absolutely no reason to fit PG in the lows when you could be fitting Ballistic Control Systems. Add in a Snapshot CM-603 and Deadeye RL-1003 and suddenly you're doing over 1000 DPS raw missile damage. Once you start raking in the ISK, replace all the shield mods and hardeners with deadspace, and your tank becomes ridiculous. (spend another 2.5bil and you can get a cap stable 500dps tank with 73%+ omni resist).

    [Raven Navy Issue, Invincible]
    Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    Ballistic Control System II
    Damage Control II

    Gist A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
    Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
    Pith B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
    Pith A-Type EM Ward Field
    Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
    Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
    Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile

    Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
    Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
    Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

    Hobgoblin II x5
    Hammerhead II x5

    ReplyDelete
  11. Here's the build I prefer (AB):

    8x Cruise Missile Launcher II

    3x Hardener II
    Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster (replace with Gist asap, it doubles cap)
    Shield Boost Amplifier II
    PAWNAGE
    100mn Afterburner II

    4x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    Drone Damage Amplifier II

    2x Rigor II, Flare II

    5x Hammerheads
    5x Hobgoblins

    I know, you can get more dps out of sentries, but in my experience, they're a royal pain in the ass to use if you're zipping about, so you get more actual dps out of Hammerheads. Note that the fit doesn't fit - you need CA-1 and CA-2 implants. If you can't afford that or can't faction fit it, replacing DDAII with a fitting mod works fine.

    To go with complete risk free fit, you can fit it like this (MJD):

    8x Cruise Missile Launcher II

    3x Hardener II
    Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster (again, replace with Gist asap)
    PAWNAGE
    Large Micro Jump Drive
    Cap Recharger II

    4x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
    Signal Amplifier II

    2x Rigor II, Flare II

    5x Hammerheads
    5x Hobgoblins

    This fit has slightly less dps than the AB one, but can keep out of danger for the vast majority of the fight. Due to CNR's hull bonuses, you don't really need the painter, it's just there in the highs because there's nothing better to put in there - switch to Precision MIssiles and you'll be oneshooting elite frigates with ease. Thanks to smaller shield booster (you really don't need the X-Large one), it's also a lot easier to fit than the AB version.

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  12. Not necessarily, primarily because of the much higher base damage multiplier on hammerhead and Hobgoblin IIs. Scaled a lot higher with skills, and tends to, but not always does, overcome the damage difference fom hitting harder resistances.

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  13. Alternatively...

    [Rattlesnake, L4 Solo]
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
    Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
    Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

    Gist B-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
    Large Shield Extender II
    Thermic Dissipation Field II
    EM Ward Field II
    EM Ward Field II
    Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
    Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

    Drone Link Augmentor I
    Drone Link Augmentor I
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile

    Large Core Defense Field Purger II
    Large Core Defense Field Purger II
    Large Core Defense Field Purger II

    Garde II x5
    Curator II x5
    Hammerhead II x5
    Valkyrie II x5
    Hobgoblin II x5
    Warrior II x5


    Cheaper than both the fits in the OP, 792dps to max range, 932dps when you can switch to Gardes at ~50km and 1005dps when you're using Fury against BS targets. Huge sustained passive tank.

    Drone-hating AI isn't anywhere near as big a deal with sentries as it is with smaller drones.

    ReplyDelete
  14. If the latest from CCP Fozzie on local shield boosting/armor repair (15% boost to all local armor repairers and all sub-deadspace, non-ancillary shield boosters) goes through as described, these fits may want to be tweaked yet again, because their tanks (based on CN/DG XLSB's) are going to go from "beastly" to flat-out bonkers.

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3426047

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nah, Gist will still be the best, as it's the only one lowering the cap cost. Whatever comes before Gist is unimportant, you take the best shield that fits.

      Delete
  15. If you replace the Caldari Navy shield booster with an x-large asb you won't need the Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I rig.

    ReplyDelete

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