Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Thursday, September 19, 2013

Assisted suicide

And now an important message from Jester's evil twin, Garth.  The opinions of Garth are not the opinions of Jester (unless they are).

Time to make some fuck-wits cry.

CCP Falcon is upset because EVE players are EVE players:
Customer Support has been made aware of the use of a specific defect as a tactic in combat. The defect has to do with assigning drones to another pilot and then moving into the safety of a forcefield without having the drones deactivate or return to your dronebay.
Tell you what.  How about we fix this exploit by just removing drone assist from the game?  How would that be?

Drone assist is only used for three damned things worth talking about anyway:
  1. Making it stupid-easy to multibox PvE.
  2. Making it stupid-easy to kill-mail whore because your lock time is slow.
  3. Making it stupid-easy to alpha shit right out of space because you can't be arsed to press F1 yourself, you lazy fuck.
Each of those tactics has one thing in common: they're stupid.  You know that it's stupid even as you're doing it.  And those of you using #3 certainly know that it's stupid, even as you cackle insanely as your Slocats make things disappear while you pig out on Cheetohs instead of touching your keyboard while you "play" EVE Online.  There's probably more than one "and when I got back from making my sandwich, the enemy fleet was dead and I had 50 kill-mails" story that should have made it to the list of the True Stories of EVE.

Torfi, we'll need an artist to paint a neck-beard spaceship nerd with an orange-stained Minmatar Hurricane t-shirt and orange-stained fingers leaning back in his chair made from crushed Pepsi Max cans to be hung in the Museum of Modern Art, please.

So let's just fucking get rid of it.  Those of you that like to harvest tears should be entirely with me on this one, right?  More tears will result from this change than from removing ice belts.  We haven't had a really good unbelievable nerf to this game for a while, so I say we're due.  Drone assist needs to die die die.

That is all.

The preceding has been an important message from Jester's evil twin, Garth.  The management apologizes to any and all whom Garth may have offended.  Garth had a good idea once, but he couldn't find a toaster, so he took his bath without it.

56 comments:

  1. *Winces at toaster comment*

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  2. Set the max drones that can be controlled to a pilot at the max number of drones that pilot can field. If they can field 5 and have none out then you can assign 5, 3 out you can assign 2.

    This is a simple change and should be easy to implement, does not solve the POS force field thing but, it does allow me to keep using my Ishtar as a hands free DPS support for my PvE Tengu.

    Works for me!

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    Replies
    1. Limiting assist to the number of drones the assisted pilot can control makes tons of sense.

      LR

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    2. why not develop your idea so that assist works just like when assigning fighters?

      the pilot you assist to get to control as many as his own drone skill allows (mas 5 when fully skilled) and he gets to control them just as if they were his own.

      guard is essentially the same thing as assist tbh and should be merged anyways.

      Delete
    3. Yes, but fighters are a bit more useful, because they warp with the controller.

      Maybe make it so you get your own drones and one set of assigned ones?

      Delete
  3. It would be fun to nerf assist after making it slightly easier.

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  4. That's... That's actually a great idea! Holy shit, I think this is the first time I've agreed with you on anything Jest... Garth.

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  5. Trust me, Garth is already on CSM8.

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    Replies
    1. ^---- this! ;o)

      Though, I can't understand why Garth didn't do this right and included the removel of force fields also! Then we start talking improvements!

      Delete
    2. Forcefields hell! Lets get rid of Drone assist, Forcefields and that pesky armor also! Drone assist is a mechanic that would exist IRL (and will) and is simply a DPS mechanic in EVE... I am glad Jester had Garth say this... cause if Jester did then I'd have lost a LOT of respect for the "ALL gameplay" CSM Rep.... who would sound more like the Small Gang Only Rep if he said that crap...

      Delete
  6. Firstly, CCP Falcon should've never been hired to begin with.

    Secondly, Garth > Ripard. More Garth posts kthnx.

    Thirdly, I agree.

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  7. The only thing that would annoy me about it is trying to wrangle the derp that is inherently included in the 40-man incursion fleets in trying to get their drones to do something useful (much less worse-than-unuseful, like killing triggers or forever-respawns that cause retargets). Half the time two or three of them can't even manage to assist them and/or notice them idly orbiting their ship, so getting them all to use them without the bunny would be horrendous.

    Otherwise, I entirely agree.
    ~OOZ662, who apparently can't be verified any more

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    Replies
    1. Don't touch my beloved drone bunny!!!!

      Delete
    2. Sorry, I've been in enough incursion fleets to know that if the folks you've got in there can't organize their friggin drones properly, they shouldn't be in a damn fleet.

      If you can't have your fleet members remember to set their drones to passive, to assign them, or retrieve them, then don't have them use drones in the first place. HQ incursions are not the place for idiots.

      And as for the ability to assign drones, it 100% should be to the limit of the skill/ship of the drone bunny. If he can only control 5, then that is the total number of drones he can control, based on the bandwidth of his ship. Anything else is just pure lore breaking and bad game design.

      Delete
    3. @Knug Lidi
      Boy, would the HQ systems be empty if imperfects were banned...
      ~OOZ662

      Delete
  8. Wait a second isn't Garth against the TOS now...

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    Replies
    1. Only if he changes somebody's website for nefarius reasons... oh hey wait a second...

      Delete
  9. What is the actual point of assists or is this a tongue in cheek article?

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    Replies
    1. Well, it's useful to assign lights to a frigate in gatecamps to help decloak, and in fights to go kill tackle (often via a webbing ship) while everyone else concentrates on the main fight. Outside of that, yeah...

      Delete
    2. As they're used today:

      * It eliminates the need of individual pilots to lock a target, select it, and turn on weapons -- they assign drones to one person, and he achieves perfectly coordinated alpha on whatever he can lock.

      * It eliminates scan resolution as a delay to apply DPS. A carrier who assigns drones to a frigate can apply damage as quickly as the frigate can.

      * It reduces the impact of spies. The entire fleet's DPS is controlled by the FC's module activation, which means that FC doesn't have to call primaries aloud on Mumble.

      * It reduces the impact of ewar. Jamming/damping anyone other than the FC has zero effect on their ability to provide DPS. If you jam/damp the FC, the fleet can temporarily reassign drones to a secondary drone trigger in about 10 seconds (with no external sign that this has occurred) and start clearing EW ships.

      * It actively discourages players (both young and old) from actively participating in fights. Drone assist fleets are boring as hell, honestly -- you are just a warm body to sit there and rep the FC, and enabling him to become the Finger of God. Most of the time, you don't even have to push a button; you just sit there and watch ships explode.

      Drone assist is handing over control of all guns in the fleet to a single person, and in doing so, eliminating most of the classic problems of fleets: getting everyone locking ahead of time and coordinating fire.

      Drone fleets have their weaknesses, of course: sentry drones are immobile, and easily killed by bombing runs. They're not unbeatable. But they're certainly not fun to fly in, nor to fight.

      Delete
    3. I think "what is the actual point of assists" *is* the point of the article.

      Delete
    4. Fairly good explanation here, plus video showing the exploit in action: http://themittani.com/news/drone-exploit-warning

      Delete
  10. Why does Falcon's post say that this emergent gameplay "will be dealt with"? Why not just turn it off in the next patch--or at least keep drone assist from working through forcefields--without the feigned outrage?

    It's a game with a hundred other stupid fucking rules. A simple "we're working on it" would have sufficed.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Clearly, you have no fucking clue how a well run incursion fleet runs, regardless of how much you profess you have run them.

    A drone bunny is essential to running an efficient fleet, because the gunnery is enough to keep you very busy, while the drone bunny and the guns focus fire on different targets.

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    Replies
    1. "A drone bunny is essential to running an efficient fleet"

      So what you're saying is, if drone assist done properly, you make ISK in incursion fleets at a lower ISK/hr rate.

      If we remove drone assistance you will need better pilots. You might just find that good pilots who know how do look after gunnery and their drones might just be more valuable.

      I have no doubt that your incursion fleets are designed to maximize your ISK return. I have no doubt that the various inclusion doctrines push the drone bunny concept as far as possible. And I have no doubt that this use of drone assistance has been beneficial to you in ISK/hr.

      Drones help your ISK/hr efficiency. Having one person run the drones further helps your efficiency. I have benefited from drone bunnies in incursions, but I still feel that the game (and incursions) will be just fine without them.

      The game will be better without drone assistance. With good pilots, your "efficiency loss" will be minimized. Maybe you'll need to alter your fleet doctrine, who knows. Live and adjust.

      The loss of drone bunnies isn't going to eliminate ISK making in incursions. Incursion fleets are very well-thought out (at least for the communities specializing in them) and I have no doubt that those creative folks will adjust their doctrines and continue earning boatloads of ISK.




      Delete
  12. get rid of drones, even better

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    Replies
    1. Would help the lag situation tremendously. Every drone is like another ship that must be tracked by the server. Without them, the need for TiDi would be less.

      Delete
  13. i don't see whats the problem with assisting drones, they don't do more damage because of it, and given their cycle time their alpha is moot. 50 drones in sync will volley stuff, 50 drones out of sync will.... volley stuff. they have a 4sec cycle time!

    the problem are sentry drones, their damage is balanced around the fact they cant move. then make them move! let them only orbit the carry ship and nerf the damage.

    removing drone assist is the same as making the SoV maintenance cost exponential as opposed as linear. sounds like a good idea, until you realize it can be easily avoided by making puppet alliances.

    same with this change, if you cant assist, they will just, you know... target and shoot you regularly? then you'll complain that they still do far too much damage.

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  14. Make assigning drones just like assigning fighters.

    /thread

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  15. Thanks for wanting to make it completely impossible for Logis to get KMs in larger fleetfights, fuckface.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When does a logi pilot care about KMs?

      Delete
    2. As a logi pilot, I can safely say that if you're worried about getting on killmails, you should not be flying logi. We want less killmails ^_^

      Delete
  16. SCREW YOU MAN

    -From your friendly fleet logibro

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  17. So does this mean CCP will be putting a priority on updating drone AI for the winter exp?

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  18. +1 support to having assist go the way of the Dodo.

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  19. Jester's Evil Twin reads a lot like Greedy Goblin...

    I'm all for that change. Or limiting the # to controlled drones, whatever. But posting here won't achieve anything, make a post in F&I or the Town Hall.

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  20. Simple solution. Treat all drones as they do fighters. You can only control as many as your drone skill allows. Maybe even add a skill to allow you to control up to 10 or something but I agree the ability to trigger 976297475690274562436645.7 sentry drones from one person is retarded.

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  21. [tinfoil]anything that mittans wants I oppose on principal[/tinfoil]

    A CCP dev recently let drop in a podcast that the man who "didn't that chairmanship anyway" still (almost) daily uses CSM back channels to pontificate on the great evil of assigning drones.

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  22. So drone assists will work as before only for people using 3rd party apps to do so.

    How does more clicking and button mashing make the game better?

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  23. aside from drone assist being highly valuable in incursions; it's a small price to pay to remove such an obscene mechanic from the game.

    incursion runners will have to suck it up and lock frigates occasionally now, a slight inconveneince but worth it for the good of the game.

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  24. Assist has a limited field where it is "nice to have", but it really wouldn't hurt to limit it. either with "as much drones as you can command" (aka 5) or to reduce it to "one slot per pilot assisting you" aka max 5 Pilots assist you and you get a maximum of 30 drones (your 5 + 5*5 others) or as carrier 60.

    The latter would help in small scale fights but would get hard in large scale.

    But as we are in the point of adding new skills for this and that, why not a "call for assistance" skill for drones. You need that skill on one to receive assisted drones from 1 player. Up to 5 ...

    In general: I agree, the function scales bad and leads to overpowered blops.

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  25. lolz.... poe thinks banning all the botters = great lose of income for CCP, wait till u mess up the hordes of PVE'ers with cheetohs stained tee-shirts multiboxing domi's with drones... omg they may respond with a nerf garth :))))

    thanks for the post garth been missing u

    Sly

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  26. This is clearly a "monkey in the poop-shoot" -kind of post. I say nerf Assist. Is there a Garth fan club yet?

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  27. I only use drone assist as a logi pilot so I can get on kms. Fix the issue of logi getting kill credits and i'm totally for the change. As for going to a POS, if they can fix links to only work outside shields, they can fix it so assigned drones disconnect if you go into one.

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  28. An alliance mate suggested the introduction of a skill to have drones assigned to you. What do you think of this Jester errr, Garth?

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  29. Depends on what sort of game you are trying to simulate. Unfortunately for the top gun dogfighters - this tactic is real world NOW.

    US drones take off from safety in US space and gun down those poor Muslim bastards still waving swords and challenging you to a man on man sword duel.

    So really should this be an exploit? If it is then I think we should probably take the whole idea of POS shields down.

    POS shields are the guilty party in interruption of "crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."

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  30. So "because of falcon" would not be an acceptable response to drone assist for once?

    Interesting that a valid use is overlooked for a rant :sadface:

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  31. If I can't set my own shield/armor bots to repair my own ship because of "lore", I can't see how I can control more drones than my ships bandwidth and/or my skills allow me to control.

    The only way drone assist makes any sense, is if the target ship has capacity to control more.

    But I must say, I'm with you Garth. If drone assistance died, I wouldn't mind one iota.

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  32. Came expecting rage from Grath, left disappointed....

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  33. Are we sure we are not close to the more fundamental question of whether drones themselves are bad in that they fire can under some circumstances without target selection and lock - or a key press for every volley?

    Avast matey's - maybe its time for stripping the game of all but the most pure form of dogfighting

    ... autocannons only with no autorepeat and manual target line up FPS style.

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  34. Jester, I rarely ever agree with you, but your twin is a pretty good guy. He should be your rep on CSM when you are busy :) I agree with the drone assist thing. as a carrier pilot I hate being told to assign my drones to some turd that will probably lose them anyways. great point I definitely +1 this

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  35. Falcon said ASSIGNING not assisting.

    Assign is what carriers can do with only fighters. One can assign fighters and then go hide in a POS.

    Assisting in its current form is rather in need of a treatment.

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  36. i wonder if Ripard has to apologize for Garth's inept grasp of the english language?

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  37. I think CCP is going to have enough trouble keeping PVE people in the game now that Goonswarm pretty much runs nullsec and will be coming after hisec with vengeance.

    Hmm.. don't use them myself however why all the hate on multiboxing PVE?

    ReplyDelete

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