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I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Wednesday, September 18, 2013

Fit of the Week: Odyssey Muninns

The very first FOTW on this blog, more than 2.5 years ago, was a Vagabond.  There's not all that much that I'd change about it today.  I'd replace the PDS with nano, or maybe a Damage Control.  I'd replace the T2 MWD with the meta version.  I'd stare hard at the rigs (maybe a Polycarb?) and I'd upgrade the neut to the meta4 Unstable.  But all in all, it's a solid fit.  It's outshone by the Cynabal, of course, but there's still absolutely nothing wrong with a good kiting Vaga.

It's certainly still my favorite Minmatar HAC.  But I don't really feel it's necessary to do another FOTW for it quite yet.  That leaves the Muninn.  Oh dear Heaven, the Muninn...

I want to like it.  I really do.  But this is a ship that's nearly impossible to love.  At the SCL this past weekend, I asked CCP Fozzie if he thought we'd see more new combat ships in the coming months.  He answered in part that they want to be careful about that because the addition of the attack BCs pushed many existing ships out of preferred roles.  The Muninn is one such ship.  You'd think it would be a near-perfect skirmisher but it's so completely outshone by virtually every other ship in the same niche.

For instance, you can try to arty-fit it with 720s:

[Muninn, Armor 720]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Gyrostabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Hornet EC-300 x5


If you want a plate, a full set of 720s, and a MWD, you're going to need two fitting mods, one of them a T2 Ancillary, or you sacrifice a low for an RCU2.  The former gets fairly expensive but is not that uncommon for HACs.  But the pay-off is a 58+36 optimal range with 220 DPS and a 1900 alpha.  There's a half-dozen ships that can better that without even getting into an attack BC, starting with an alpha Hurricane.  And an alpha Hurricane is nobody's idea of a good skirmishing ship in the modern EVE.  Brave Newbies do more alpha than this with a couple of Talwars!  Eagles will eat you alive.  I guess it would be forgivable if it tanked better, but you're getting about 50k EHP off this fit.  It's hard to recommend.

If you want to go for kiting range instead, a couple of tweaks of the above fit gets you to here:

[Muninn, Armor 650]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Gyrostabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Hornet EC-300 x5


This one increases DPS to 300 and increases tank to 56k, but decreases alpha to 1663.  Tracking is about 0.05, around double that of a rail-fit Eagle that fights at about the same range.  But the Eagle out-DPSes you by about 1.5 to 1, out-ranges you by about the same amount, and out-tanks you at 67k.  So you're going to lose that fight, too.  And again, the Eagle is nobody's idea of the ideal kiting ship.  The 650 Muninn fit is probably the strongest of the two arty possibilities but its significant weaknesses make it really hard to recommend.

That leaves an auto-cannon fit, which is actually kind of intriguing:

[Muninn, Armor 425]
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Gyrostabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Warrior II x5


Overall, this strikes me as the best use for this ship right now.  You sacrifice one of the two HAC bonuses, that for optimal range.  But you gain some really entertaining options as a close-in anti-tackle support ship for armor gangs of various types.  DPS is 382 out to scram range, or 305 to point range with Barrage, and your tracking is quite good at 0.13 for Barrage which rises to 0.18 with high damage ammo.  The tracking at least is quite a bit better than comparable anti-tackle options, and though your DPS is lower, it is both tunable and you come equipped with a medium neut, which virtually all of the comparable ships lost during their most recent re-balancing.  To that, add your drone damage or a flight of Hornet ECs.

So the fit bears some thinking about.  Carry some Drop booster to enhance your tracking still further, and some Mindflood wouldn't go amiss (and you can safely ignore even the most severe penalties inflicted by the latter).  Tank remains 56k with good all-around resists and the ship responds well to armor reps and like all Minmatar ships is nearly impervious to lasers.  If you come under other types of fire, overheat the hardeners.  You can even think about a T2 Trimark.  At present, they aren't too expensive.

If you're willing to sacrifice a kilometer of range and some speed, you can downshift to 220mm Vulcan AutoCannons, take off the ACR, replace it with a second Trimark, and even upgrade the plate to T2.  Your excellent tracking improves still further.  Speed dips to from 1492m/s to 1382m/s before heating but tank increases to 68k EHP.  There are certainly thinner ships in EVE Online.

Not very many Muninns sell per day, and those that do probably tend to go toward specialized doctrines.  Of the two Minmatar HACs, I don't think the Muninn is ever going to be my favorite.  Overall, I think it's my least favorite HAC, but something had to be.  However, there are some interesting gaps that it fills so keep it in mind if one of these three possibilities seems workable to you.

Trust in the rust...

EDIT (19/Sep/2013): I've covered this once or twice before with other FOTWs, but let's cover it again: if your particular alliance or corp has a doctrine built around a specific ship, you should fit to that doctrine.  I do indeed recognize that there are workable shield Muninn fittings, for instance, and for the alliances and corps using specific doctrines based on those fits, more power to you!  And from time to time, I do cover specific doctrines in posts outside the FOTW.   But the FOTWs tend to be more generalized; I don't cover doctrine fits on the FOTW generally because to make a doctrine work, your entire corp or alliance would have to buy into the doctrine.  Someone should start a "Doctrine of the Week" on another EVE blog out there...


All Fits of the Week are intended as general guidelines only.  You may not have the skills needed for this exact fit.  If you do not, feel free to adjust the fit to suit to meet your skills, including using meta 3 guns and "best named" defenses and e-war.  Ships can also be adjusted to use faction or dead-space modules depending on the budget of the pilot flying it.  Each FOTW is intended as a general guide to introduce you to concepts that will help you fit and to fly that particular type of ship more aggressively and well.

11 comments:

  1. I think the muninn is more of a shield-tanking ship than an armor tanking ship, even with the recent patch, and shield setups account for pretty much all of the small amount usage muninns have gotten in the real world. Regardless, muninns are still ships that cost 20x as much as a Talwar while having double the alpha at the same range, and moving at about the same speed.

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  2. Vagabond is outshined by a Cynabal FOR NOW. We'll see what happens when CCP comes to pirate balance, as they already stated they want to tone down both Cyna and Mach for a bit.

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    Replies
    1. ... all the while ensuring that Vindicators stay the same. Its not hard to see which way the wind has been blowing the last couple of years.

      Its not toward the rust.

      Delete
  3. You can fit a stabber fleet in a similar fashion as the armor munin and get more speed, better tracking and half the cost. You trade some Deeps and the neut but it does get a second mid. No real reason to fly a Munin this way except "I have one might as well use it" :)

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  4. You can literally get 170 Talwars for the price of one Muninn.

    That's funny.

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  5. Why would you ever armor tank a Muninn

    Or fit autocannons when a Rupture does the job as well for like 1/10th the price

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  6. Shield Muninns can be great skirmishers with solid alpha. Properly combined with Huggins for long range webs, and gang of them can do a lot of damage while remaining very mobile. Black Legion has used them for quite a long time, and 401K followed in that tradition and used them a lot in the spring/early summer. It isn't the most glorious fight Muninns ever fought since it was mostly T1 frigates and Cruisers, but here is the one fight Tar-Palantir could find in his 2 minutes he had.

    http://401k.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18029382


    As to the actual muninn fitting being used by 401K (believe Black Legions was similar, but you'd have to check)

    http://401k.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17976815

    Smart bombs were for the era of missile spam, but also useful for clearing jamming drones. Can swap a Sig amp into the lows for long range fighting.

    Tar-Palantir is no EFT Warrior, so won't defend details of the fit. Just know that we used them a lot and enjoyed them. Lack the DPS of the BS gunned BC, but more mobile and far more resistant to bombers.


    Scout, tackle, warp-in point, suicide agress, die.
    your humble Interceptor pilot
    Tar-Palantir

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    Replies
    1. Wow shield Muninns are pretty cool I WONDER WHO 401K GOT THAT IDEA FROM

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  7. Huggins and Munnins working together! Historicaly speaking that has never... oh wait.

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  8. LISTEN GUYS MUNINNS ARE REALLY BAD BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ARMOR TANK THEM AND SKIRMISH AT THE SAME TIME MMKAY?

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  9. so you link 3 fits that have no standing in the current meta for small/medium/large gang pvp, and fail to link THE most commonly used muninn fit since it's inception?

    i'm just so disappointed i spent the time to read this.

    there is an entire alliance devoted to the use of the muninn.

    you can claim ~well bl isn't small gang~, but while this may be true now, 2 years ago they were still fighting NC drakes in the north with, you guessed it, muninns.

    http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=1372

    literally all you need to know about a muninn is right there in your face.

    ReplyDelete

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