Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Friday, October 25, 2013

Worst in class 2013

How did I not think of this?  If I'm going to list my favorites, it only makes sense to list my least favorites as well.  So this will probably be a new part of the annual continuing tradition.  As with best in class, the faction ships will be regarded separately from the others and I will exclude tournament ships and limited edition ships.  Without further ado...

Standard ship classes:
  • Assault Ship: This title should go to the Amarr, where both options need some love.  Of the two, I think the Amarr/Retribution is the weaker one.  You have to do some fitting tricks to get it to actually be able to apply its on-paper DPS and even with that it has some major cap issues...
  • Battle Cruiser: In a class with a lot of really good ships, the Caldari/Ferox lags behind the rest.  Its two fitting choices have a ton of competition pushing on their niche.  I hear the Goons will be doing interesting things with it this year.  We'll see.
  • Battleship: CCP Rise will yell at me for saying so, but this one goes to the Gallente/Hyperion.  It only has a limited set of use cases.  I'm also not a fan of the Amarr/Apocalypse, though at least that one is pretty easy to get into as a PvE boat.
  • Black Ops: The Caldari/Widow kind of epitomizes all of the problems with Caldari PvP just now, the high CPU for missiles, the mixed-bag fitting options in the mids, the limited versatility, and the slllooowww... oh my Heavens, the slow.
  • Carrier: Some of the same problems plague the Caldari/Chimera.  I don't know whose bright idea making Capital Shield Boosters need 300 CPU was, but they need to be beaten.  The Chimera also lacks a solid fleet meta to form up around it.
  • Command Ship: This one's a tricky choice, but I think I would give it to the Caldari/Nighthawk right now.  It's hard to judge what this ship is supposed to be good at.  The Vulture has all its advantages and applies them better.
  • Covert Ops: This one goes to the Minmatar/Cheetah, but only just.  The Amarr/Anathema is nearly as bad, but that one at least looks bad-ass, has slightly better fitting options, and aligns just as fast.
  • Cruiser: There's 16 of these right now and none of them are bad!  They all have distinct strong points and there's really terrific balance between them.  But if I had to choose one, it would probably be the Caldari/Osprey.  Still, this has more to do with the Scythe's strengths than the Osprey's weaknesses.
  • Destroyer: The Caldari/Cormorant edges out the Amarr/Coercer for this spot.  It still makes an OK salvage destroyer, and is still fine for long-range pod-sniping, but it's not good for much else.
  • Dreadnought: Caldari/Phoenix.  It's so much worse than the other three it's basically EVE's flying joke.
  • EAF: The Gallente/Keres takes this one at the moment mostly because the others have such obvious strengths.
  • Frigate: The Minmatar/Vigil is currently the least useful, though the Amarr/Inquisitor and Gallente/Navitas are both amusingly pointless as well.
  • HAC: I'm going to keep standing on my soap-box saying Caldari/Eagle until such time as someone actually listens.  Why oh why was its utility high removed?
  • HIC: This definitely goes to a shield hictor, but which one?  I lean Minmatar/Broadsword, mostly because if its ridiculously lacking CPU and the fact the Onyx can match it for agility.
  • Interceptor: Until November 19, this one's a toss-up between the Amarr/Crusader and the Caldari/Raptor.  The "Craptor" at least has the tackle range bonus, so I'll give this pedestal to the Crusader.
  • Interdictor: This title goes to the Gallente/Eris, mostly because it's lacking any sort of fleet role.  It's a decent combat dictor, but is outmatched by the much superior Sabre.  As with the interceptors, the order is getting shuffled around in a few weeks.
  • Logistics: It's tough to find a good role for the Caldari/Basilisk right now that the Scimitar can't perform better in.  I'll grant it's quite good in PvE but you have to make a number of fitting compromises to make it work properly.  Still, the Basi gets the title mostly because the other three are better.
  • Marauder: Is there anything the Amarr/Paladin is really really good at?  OK, I can think of one thing: botters like it.  This is hardly a ringing endorsement.
  • Recon: I really like the concept of the Amarr/Pilgrim, but the execution is sub-standard at best.  It got some help this year with some interesting shield-based DDA comps but an ideal way of dealing with this ship's deficiencies this was not.  The Caldari/Rook also needs some help.  "It's a good tournament ship" is about the only nice thing you can say about that one.
  • Rookie Ship: The Amarr/Impairor takes this title, mostly because of the extra mod needed to use it as a free cyno ship.
  • Stealth Bomber: It's a close thing, but I think the Gallente/Nemesis takes this position, mostly because it's main advantage is looking bad-ass.  To actually fit the thing needs more compromises than even a bomber should demand.
  • Strat Cruiser: Tough one!  Not the Proteus.  Not the Tengu.  The Loki is too darned valuable.  Which gives this title to the Amarr/Legion by process of elimination.  Though various neut fits are really fun, the Legion suffers from being only a marginal improvement on the Sac/Zealot model out of proportion with its much greater expense.  It's also not as versatile as the other three.
  • Super Carrier: The Caldari/Wyvern suffers from a lot of the same drawbacks as its little brother and just doesn't bring any compelling advantages to the party.  When fit properly, it tanks like crazy I guess but that turns its advantage to "dying slow."
  • Titan: Similarly, the Caldari/Leviathan gets this title by process of elimination.

As with the "best of list" for faction ships, I'm going to split this into categories for Empire and non-Empire factions:
  • Empire Faction Battleship: Tough call!  Probably the Gallente/Megathron Navy Issue, but only just. The Kronos and the Vindicator are so exceptional that it's hard for the Navy Mega to compete.  Still, the Amarr/Armageddon Navy Issue needs some improving, too.
  • Non-Empire Faction Battleship: The Guristas/Rattlesnake is the only battleship class ship in EVE I have never flown.  And for now I can't think of a reason I ever will.
  • Faction Battle Cruiser: Easy call: the Minmatar/Hurricane Fleet Issue.  The ship's entire existence is a troll perpetrated by CCP Fozzie.
  • Empire Faction Cruiser: Like many categories, this one comes down to Amarr and Caldari entries, specifically the Amarr/Augoror Navy Issue and the Caldari/Osprey Navy Issue.  I'm going to give it to the Caldari ship; having both Caldari faction cruisers firing missiles was probably a mistake.
  • Non-Empire Faction Cruiser: My poor Sansha's Nation/Phantasm.  It's not that it's bad.  It's just that there are T1 cruisers that are better.
  • Empire Faction Frigate: As I said in the "Best of", I'd be hard-pressed to choose one of these that's bad, but if forced I'd probably choose the Caldari/Caldari Navy Hookbill.  It's both nicely tanky and nicely kitey, but doesn't put out a lot of damage.
  • Non-Empire Faction Frigate: Does anyone even own a Sansha's Nation/Succubus?  I literally cannot remember ever seeing one in space, and with good reason.  The Guristas/Worm is nearly as bad.

For non-combatants:
  • Exhumer: Kind of a tricky category, but the on that probably deserves this spot is the ORE/Hulk.  The Skiff at least has its enormous tank and quickness going for it.
  • Freighter: This one's a toss-up between the various ships that aren't Fenrirs.  I'm going to give it to the Gallente/Obelisk.  It's ugly, slow, and is tied for the Charon for the lowest align time, but at least the Charon holds 50k m3 more.
  • Industrial: The Gallente/Kryos is so useless as to be almost amusing... well, that's not fair.  It hauls tritanium like nobody's business.(1)  Put anything worth more into it though and you risk being ganked by a noobship.  I guess it's useful if you get a lot of null-sec hauler spawns... maybe?
  • Transport: Gallente/Occator.  When you first hear about this ship, you might be inclined to want one... until you sit in it and try to fly it somewhere.  An Orca aligns faster, warps nearly as fast, holds three times as much, and can tank harder.  And now the Orca is a hell of a lot easier to get into, too.

A little meaner than my "best of" list, but those are my choices for 2013.  It does kind of highlight some problem areas for the Caldari, with me picking thirteen of their ships for "worst of" in their class...

Anyone want to stand up for the rights of any of the ships I'm picking on?

(1) I wanted a POS fuel hauler that could also haul JB fuel.  Denied.


  1. The Basilisk suffers from two problems: its base speed is lower than that of a plated and trimarked Guardian; and it's somewhat gimped on fitting space, although not as badly as the Guardian. An MWD Basilisk is something like 500m/s slower than a Scimitar, which is an obvious problem.

    The Guardian has also been functionally outclassed by the Oneiros, although folk continue to use it out of habit. A T2 Oneiros has a better resistance profile, more EHP, and comparable or better repair output relative to a T2 Guardian. A Guardian requires about 200M ISK in faction modules in order to fit a 4/2 profile and a 1600mm plate, at which point it can compete with the Oneiros. The Guardian's only advantage otherwise is its ability to send cap. Unless you're running specialty 4.5/1 or 5/1 profiles.

  2. I fly a Rattlesnake because I can't be bothered to skill up blasters/railguns and fly a Dominix, and because the Rattlesnake is a good tanker.

    In terms of overall quality/price, the Dominatrix blasts it out of the water, obviously.

  3. It is possible for a Navy Meg to have a 50 optimal on both rails and sentries and still push 800/300+ DPS. While the overall DPS isn't quite top of the line, the ability to do reasonable damage to two different targets at the same time has its uses, most especially in PvE.

    With both weapon systems capable of taking out frigates at range (and two at a time), it is often possible to clear the field of any webbers/scrammers before they get close.

    Follow up with focus fire on the larger targets, and you're good to go. With its speed and 8 lows, it is also possible have really quite good resists (80%+) and to use range tanking if things get heavy (a good afterburner will push this ship to 480m/s+).

    This is not a sit there and tank it ship. But it will well reward an active pilot who can use her strengths well.

    As far as a comparison with the Vindi and Kronos hulls go, I have to agree they're stonkingly good - esp when used as intended. Where the Navy Meg shines is her flexibility.

    1. "While the overall DPS isn't quite top of the line, the ability to do reasonable damage to two different targets at the same time has its uses, most especially in PvE."

      Simply make no/two weapon groups? Don't see why that would be an advantage as described compared to other ships.

    2. Both rails and sentries are battleship signature weapons (400). As far as PvE goes, the smaller ships are the faster, and once they get under your guns impossible to hit. There are usually a higher proportion of them in missions as well.

      You will need to rely on a smaller drones to kill them then, which is a much slower process. There is also the inconvenience of being webbed/scrammed....

      Rails don't have the greatest alpha either. In practical terms, even with 7 guns in one group, you're not always taking out a frigate or cruiser in one cycle, especially once they start getting under optimal and transversal starts creeping up.

      Finally, the megathron makes up for the lesser alpha with a ROF bonus. May as well use it to your advantage as far as target choice goes. Drone aggro management is a part of that as well. Some missions will eat light drones like popcorn.

      The resists, buffer, and tank are usually good enough to hold under pressure, so removing the frigates means you always have the option of getting out.

      There is a bit to manage between choosing your targets, managing the sentries etc etc. And it's not an engage repper, hit F1 and wait 20 seconds for your guns to cycle boat. But it works. And it works well.

      Prefer her over the Kronos and Vindicator with my particular set up because of the damage projection and near identical overlap on optimal for the guns/drones along with the greater sized drone bay. That said, if I'm tired and want an easier time of it, the Kronos is probably a better choice.

      tl;dr - Because I've found it about the quickest overall method of running missions. Take out the hard to hit stuff first while you can still hit them with your main weapons.

  4. Confirming Hyperion as worst battleship. Has been from the day it was introduced.

    Though whether that's because of role overlap with the Mega or :activearmortank: I can't say. Maybe a combination of both?

    1. Double confirm.

      Reason for failure? Unlike CCP Fozzie, CCP Rise didn't listen to feedback on the forums. Probably thought he had to impress his new bosses.

    2. I really disagree, I don't know why it gets this reputation. I have a hyperion fit that does 1500 dps heated to 7km + 6km falloff and 1200 dps heated to 13km + 17.5km falloff. All the while it has a 1000 dps tank, 2000dps tank if heated with exile booster.

      Add this on top of it's ability to go at 1500m/s with a microwarp and you have a ship that's great for hugging other battleships in a smallish fleet fight and killing them. It hits well below its weight class too due to both drones and the ability to track fairly well with blasters.

      It's the epitome of brawl ship and it kicks ass in that role, I don't see why every ship has to be good at everything to not be considered "bad".

  5. Good lists. Would be interesting to see your opinion on the best and worse for different combat roles too.

  6. I use the kryos a lot to haul minerals to and from my factory/mining system to the local trade hub. I guess you get a slightly better tank from it because you don't need to fit cargo expanders (they don't apply to the mineral hold anyway), and you can stack the lows with warp stabs.

    My vote for worst in the industrial would probably be one of the tougher/faster haulers. With teiricide, I'm not sure why somebody would choose one of them over a max cap industrial or one of the other options. Aside from novelty fits like the battle badgers or as bait.

    1. Agree Kyros is useful for mineral hauling.

      Disagree with obviously ignorant remark about value of tougher/faster haulers.

  7. You went with the wyvern instead of the hel for worst super????

  8. Why all this hate for the Paladin? This baby has insane damage projection if fitted with Tachyons, currently able to fire Multifrequency at a range of ~45 km (Bastion will give her 73km optimal, which is just insane) while still putting out respectable DPS (outdamaging every other Marauder at range). The only real problem of the Paladin is the Nightmare, which is a Paladin with shieldtank.

    The worst Marauder still is the Kronos.

  9. I think you are wrong on the carrier call. The chimera isn't the one with fitting problems anymore, the Niddhogur has way more trouble if you try to shield tank it. Chimera is the only good shield triage choice. The thanatos also sucks more than the chimera, though I suppose people use it more for pve.

  10. I'm going to stand up for the Rattlesnake. Even before the cruise missile buff and the introduction of drone damage amplifiers, it was my favorite ratting ship. Afterwards, it's even better, of course.
    There are gunships out there that do better dps on particular factions. Nightmare for Sanshas and Drones, Vindicator for Serpentis, etc. However, back in the day when I ground out level 4 missions for a living, I got tired of keeping 5-6 bil tied up in blingy ships that made me nervous to undock. Once I started flying a Rattler, it wasn't long before those hyper-expensive ships went on contract.
    Change damage types by changing missile ammo and drones. Faction specific tank by swapping two mods. Adjust tank vs gank by swapping one low slot. And undock and go. (If you are wondering, I believe the only proper way to fit the Rattler for PvE is a passive shield tank.) It's the swiss army knife of ratting battleships, and it doesn't need to double it's hull cost in expensive modules to work good, either.
    For nullsec ratting it's even better. Warp into a sanctum at 70km, dump out the sentries, and start blapping the small stuff while the bigger stuff flies right at you. Add the cruise missiles for extra dps on tougher targets. Jam me? Damp me? Fine. My sentries are still chewing on stuff. And if my corp or alliance moves halfway across EVE to somewhere else, I can drag it along with me, secure in the knowledge it will work just as well against whatever faction I'll find in my new home.
    I don't have a replacement candidate for this category, I haven't flown enough of the various faction battleships to pick out one of the gunboats for it's particular shortcomings. I can say, however, that if I could only own one battleship, it would be a Rattlesnake.

  11. I think you're right about the Legion's incremental value over the Sac/Zealot, but that's really only in light of the recent HAC buffs. However I wouldn't list a lack of versatility as one of it's problems. Neut Legions are a thing as well as HAM and laser combat variants. There's even a viable combat link fit.

    I'd put up the Loki as worst in class for the T3's. That thing is one recon rebalance away from being shelved; it's web range subsystem is the only unique draw of the ship.

  12. If you put out buy orders on minerals for several systems surrounding your production system the Kyros is invaluable for doing pickups. The fact that putting cargo expanders on it is a waste allows you to focus everything on a shield tank and nanos. Staying away from the major station hubs and avoiding ganks with cargo holds full of megacyte is flying the ship properly rather than the ship lacking.

  13. I would object to the Chimera being the worst carrier. I believe the Nidhoggur is the worst, yes it looks awesome, but it lacks any sense of whether it should be shield or armor. They tend to die almost twice as fast as any other carrier.

  14. The Armageddon navy issue is the only amarr battleship that has a cap use bonus, that makes it pretty bad ass, you can do some silly fits with it that the other laser battleships don't have the cap for.

  15. The nidhoggur is terrible and easily grabs the worst carrier title. With triage fit it requires hardwires to fit and even then has a non-capital module in one high. The fitting almost demand that if you selrep armor you remote rep shield or the opposite. Its split armor/shield bonus is as useful as split weapons. The tank is bad and the capcitor weak. Low mass and good looks are all it has going for it.

  16. I want to defend the Pilgrim and Legion, but...

    No one ever said love was easy.

  17. You have mentioned few times fitting constraints as one of the reasons some ships suck. So maybe we need more advanced fitting skills to compensate such drawbacks? Like analog of Advanced Weapon Upgrades skill for CPU.

    1. Isn't that just "Weapon Upgrades"

  18. It's sad but true many Caldari ships are either the flatout worst, or definite competitors to that title.

  19. Rattlesnake: amazing tank and drone+missile dps, great for pve, but a bit lacking for pvp. I would have honestly gone with the Bhaalgorn for worst worst pirate battleship because its a one trick pony. If you want to do anything other than neut a cap really quickly, other ships are better. The T1 Armageddon gives it a run for its money now since it can out-range Bhaalgorn neuts with its own, though it doesn't get the amount bonus.

    Pilgrim is great in certain situations, the td and neut bonus make it fun. Buy yeah, out of all the recons it is the worst.

    Carrier, the Nidhoggur deserves the worst title, as the Chimera is a better shield triage ship and can tank more. The Nidhoggur is only good for repping structures after the hostiles have all left.

    and the Caldari have a dread? I thought that was just a bigger drake...

  20. I will side with Jester with his controversial "Rattlesnake is the worse pirate faction battleship" statement. This was a tough call, and one of the faction battleships has to be the worst.

    The Machariel, Nightmare and Bhaalgorn all see use in incursions because they have speed, DPS and utility on their side. The main advantage of the Rattlesnake is having slightly more DPS (cruise-fit Rattlesnake over exclusively-drones Dominix) and a better tank than a Dominix.

    So the Rattlesnake is the "worst" of the pirate battleships only by dint of not being amazingly better than a Dominix in the role of drone boat. I don't think being an amazing performer in PvE is a consideration in Jester's perspective :)

  21. I would defend the Obelisk on the ground that it's the hardest freighter to gank, since it has the best tank. The Charon may be able to carry a fair amount more, but it take notably less ships to kill it... and the gankers know this.

  22. Perhaps I have a thing for playing the "bad" ships or something, but I'm actually satisfied with the results I have had with Ferox and Hyperion. For my skillset (which generally means meta 4 weapons, but T2 on everything else and "better than average but not quite good enough to squeeze out optimum drone boat performance" drone skills), they worked.

  23. I'd say the Comet or Firetail are worse than the Hookbill. The Hookbill may not put out much DPS, but it's rocket based so it's almost always applied properly. Having five mid slots makes it so incredibly good at range control and EWAR use that you can literally kill Thrashers with a Hookbill. It is also really, really fast.

    I've seen people kill pre-nerf Hurricanes and a Vagabond with a Hookbill. Do not underestimate them just because the dps is low.

  24. The Vomit and Failtail are by far worse than the Hookbill. Hookbills, especially with TDs, are fucking mean. Firetails are just overpriced Slashers, and Comets, well... you're better off in a Merlin.

    The Broadsword is actually better than the Onyx because of its resists. Really, the only thing a HIC has to do well survive, and those resists make surviving easier.

    Nid is way worse than the Chimera. Sure, the Chimera might be over shadowed by its armor counterparts, but it at least has a use as a Shield Triage for shield BS fleets. The only thing the Nid is good for is repping towers. It's rep bonus isn't worth a damn since it doesn't survive long enough to apply it.

    The Widow is more useful than the Sin. The only thing the Sin can do is rep damaged bombers with its drones. The Widow, on the other hand, makes a great support ship when paired with a Redeemer or Panther. It's going to get even better when Depos get released, since now the pilot can swap out his ECM mods in space before he jumps in.

    The Retribution has some uses with its insane range with scorch. The Jaguar on the other hand can't hold a candle to the other AFs. The Wolf beats it as a long range platform, and the Harpy beats it as a close-in brawler. Sure, it's fast, but if you want a ship that only has speed as the advantage, you're better off with an Interceptor.

    Speaking of 'Ceptors, come November 19th... the Raptor will still be the Craptor. And the Eris will still be the worst dictor unless they get rid of those stupid split weapons.

    The Pilgrim is a good solo/ small gang pvp ship. The Rook, on the other hand, is down right worthless.


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