Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Thursday, November 21, 2013

Outsource the hard work

So here's an interesting get-rich-quick sort of scheme that some of you might be amused by.

Back in August, faced with the more or less insurmountable problem of figuring out where the valuable moons were in an entire region, Marlona Sky hit upon a brilliant strategy. Instead of scanning every single moon around every single planet in every single system, his alternate solution was to only scan moons that had moon harvesting arrays nearby. The logic was simple and devastating: with so many sov-holding alliances treating moons as a valuable asset, he figured that someone, somewhere, had already learned where all the valuable moons were. Any moon that had a moon harvesting array was probably something worth investigating; any moon that didn't have one probably wasn't.

The only downside to his strategy is that he had to go and fly out into space to learn where the moon harvesting arrays were. That's a lot of work.

Suppose you're sitting on a nice big pile of Mobile Siphons. Where are the best places to put them? Well, it turns out that you can follow a variation on Marlona's strategy and you don't even have to undock (too much) to do it. If a Mobile Siphon gets killed in a system, particularly if there's a POS on the kill-mail, you can pretty well assume that there's a moon worth siphoning in that system.

It even turns out that Mobile Siphons are something that you can search for individually. Here are -- at the moment I'm writing this -- 169 Mobile Siphon kills.

It's safe to say that there's a POS in each of those systems with something worth siphoning. You can even pull up individual kill-mails and learn what the siphons were eating. Here's a system with a technetium moon. Here's a system with a neodymium moon. Here's a system with a dysprosium moon. You'll still have to go to that system and hunt around a bit for the right POS, of course. But 17 times out of 20, I'll bet if you find the POS with the right corp that killed the previous siphon and the POS has a moon harvesting array, that's the one you're looking for.

Have fun!

37 comments:

  1. Or you could use Dotlan. It may not be 100% accurate, but it's 100% lazy. :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Moon owners have been known to deliberately falsify the data on dotlan.

      Delete
    2. Can you put stuff inside a siphon?

      If so, then moon owners can also falsify this method:
      - Go to a system with no valuable moons
      - Have a 3rd party plant a siphon
      - put some decoy goo inside
      - blow it up

      Well, at least it is more effort than changing dotlan, that's certain.

      Delete
  2. Interesting approach, although it is self selecting moons with vigilant POS owners. Another method for identifying money moons is to examine the killboard of a group, for specific time periods, involved in a regional war. EVE Kill will even parse the data for you. For example, check tower kills for CONDI, say for June/July - oh look, what could all those Fountain POS kills be about? ;-D

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. More or less. POSs could be getting killed for strategic reasons as well (JBs, titan POSs, safe POSs, etc)

      Delete
  3. Player X decides he wants to siphon some ISK from an alliance moon.
    X finds a third party (or an alt) who will plant a siphon and give him a share of the income.
    Siphon gets exploded, killmail becomes public
    Alliance enemies know which systems to look in.

    How long till all the valuable moons become public knowledge ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Maybe Jester killed this strategy by posting it?

      The active pos owners will just ensure there is no goo inside the siphon before destroying it, be it valuable or not.

      As more and more siphons are placed all over Eve and having no better filter, sooner or later the signal to noise ratio will become too small.

      Delete
  4. Is it possible to determine what a moon is harvesting without probes/waiting for the first siphon cycle?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The reason nobody will reply is because most siphons will be placed just yolo at any moon someone finds, making it incredibly tedious to find valuable moons via this method.

      Delete
  5. This is mildly evil on CCP's part. The moon holders have to choose between leaving the siphon up, or letting the entire world know where and what their moon is.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or they can just clean it out themselves. They lose some in wastage, but no killmails are created.

      Delete
  6. I guess the problem with using kill mails is those moon owners are vigilant and chances are will spot your siphon.

    ReplyDelete
  7. It's even easier - the siphons usually have some goo inside them which you can see on the kill mail.

    Here's one from a Razor Hafnium moon.
    https://zkillboard.com/detail/34683938/

    ReplyDelete
  8. That's very clever, respect for the Strategic thinking!

    ReplyDelete
  9. Am I being thick about Siphons - I've played seriously in a long time, but doesn't the POS shoot at you while trying to anchor the siphon and when you try and empty it? Or are most POSs not armed any more?

    Shass

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Many moon POSes aren't armed. The ones that are armed take a long time to lock something small, like a stealth bomber. Warp to POS, decloak nearby, drag siphon into space, it'll start anchoring, warp off.

      Delete
  10. Jester, is there some way to end up sending you an email or something? Wanting to try to restart in EVE online with one of these cheap starter packs, and would like someone to get that 21 day early start in there.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'd be happy to send you a buddy invite. Just EVE mail me the e-mail address you'd like it to go to.

      Delete
  11. And who cares about the siphon business? The goons themselves admitted that the siphon griefing tactic plays to their strengths, not the strengths of small groups.

    But hey, you keep pumping out that tired tripe about how this will level the playing field. Just like conquerable high sec POCO's was going to be a conflict driver.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This plays to the Goon's strengths because they patrol and defend their space.

      Not everyone does. PL owns moons that are dozens of jumps away from where they are at any given moment. Is PL gonna check those moons every day? Doubt it.

      Delete
    2. Every T2 item requires some moon goo. The siphons destroy a percentage of everything mined. My theory is that T2 items will end up increasing.

      Hey, some guy named Spiny Norman was looking for you.

      Delete
    3. Unless PL (for example) can figure out how to bot a
      siphon check with the cyno alt at the POS, which should be ludicrously easy. Set overview to siphons only. If there's anything in the overview (completely passive check, no clicks for CCP to detect) either raise an alarm or shoot it with a POS gun (two clicks).

      If they had made you, for example, have to hack the siphon to reveal it to the POS guns then at least it would be harder to bot, although it would also be an even more tedious chore for the poor POS owners.

      Delete
  12. Again eve players thinking outside of the box, this never fails to surprise me.

    Or though Jester i did have an interesting thought lately, how does the current state of eve compare to the original design concept, and if those who came up the that concept feel as if eve and the player base has meet or exceeded that original concept.

    ReplyDelete
  13. There is one bias in your deduction which is quite important: only the defended POSes are shown on the KB. These are albeit the ones which are not profitable (or much less, since they are defended). You want to hunt for the ones with no activity ... :))

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sooner or later, every moon will be graced with a siphon. Sooner or later, every siphon will be destroyed. Over time, this method can't help but identify every valuable moon in New Eden. If nothing else, alliance members will use alts to steal from their own alliances, wanting their SRP money in advance.

      Delete
    2. Which is why every alliance with money moons will switch to a corp based rental program and force the administration and headache of policing the moons down the chain of command.

      Delete
    3. If the moon is producing anything worth siphoning, that means someone will eventually show up to collect whatever it's producing. Then the owner has a choice:
      - Blow up the siphon, letting the whole galaxy know what was in it.
      - Leave the siphon to keep siphoning.

      Though I thought siphons could be emptied by anyone. Meaning the smart play is to empty the siphon, then blow it up.

      Delete
    4. SRP programs are mostly jokes. My current alliance hasn't replaced a single ship I've taken on fleet actions. Time for a new alliance.

      Delete
  14. It seems to me like this is a good way of finding out where good moons are. But it's not really a good way of finding out where to place siphons. Placing a siphon where one has just recently been killed is simply consigning it to the same fate.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Over time, every moon will be siphoned, if only by alts of their own alliances (see above).

      Delete
    2. Dotlan maps have a lot of false information in them. The killboards are much harder to falsify. I'm sure some enterprising folks may want to trap others by anchoring their own siphons, inserting expensive goo and blowing up the siphon. So when you go out of your way to set up your own siphon, all you get are farts (atmospheric gases if you prefer the polite word).

      Delete
  15. How about chaff? How expensive a proposition would it be to seed all moons in a system, or a constellation, and destroy them with alts?

    ReplyDelete
  16. so.... you take the guff out of the siphon. no prob.
    OR. i like this better: you plant a goo filled tick on a adversary moon and destroy. that'll muddy the waters a bit. :ponders: will have to check the mechs on that. can siphons be scooped when loaded?

    ReplyDelete
  17. What if you load the siphon on your tech moon with some cheaper goo and kill it to fake the moon?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm fairly certain you can't put stuff into the siphon unit.

      Delete
  18. Most moons have more than one resource to begin with, but things like Atmospheric Gases aren't worth the time to take out of a silo and ship to Jita for sale. I imagine that quite a lot of pos owners will now online moon harvesters for all of the junk resources.

    Then when someone siphons you they will get a lot of junk, you take back the good moon material and blow up the siphon leaving a kill mail full of worthless junk.

    ReplyDelete

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