Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Thursday, December 12, 2013

Proper fleet composition

I'm going to make this very, very quick.

Sov war is not, never was, and never shall be my area of expertise in this game. But there was a fight tonight to rescue or destroy a group of SOLAR super-carriers in Tenerifis this evening. It will be the big EVE news story of this week. The supers were operating without sub-cap support because that's what supers do in this game. And the attack fleets that came in to kill them? Well, see for yourself.

Here's a graphic representing two directional scans of the battle:


This is now a proper fleet composition at the high end of EVE Online. All I've been able to do for the last 20 minutes is stare at these two d-scan results and shake my head. This is now how EVE Online is played if you want to be one of the big boys on the map. This is where we are. We are at the point where the only defense you have if you do something dumb is to hope your opponent does something dumber: bring in so many carriers and super-carriers ships that the game's server crashes.

It is no longer possible to express in mere human language how irretrievably broken the high end of this game is.

28 comments:

  1. What makes you think this is the "high end" of the game?

    This represents the most painfully boring part of the game, when TiDi slows things down so much that old play-by-mail games would be considered real-time, just before the server crashes and warps everyone off in random directions.

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  2. This is why my small corp never wants to have anything to do with null... ever. We've tried twice... whatta fail way to play this wonderful game.

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  3. I am not exactly sure what you are expecting... multi-10-thousand coalitions resolving their disputes in a 10v10 frigate brawl?

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    1. Of course not. but the drones outnumbered the players by a 4-1 margin, and the capital ships represent three of the top five ship classes. If you were in a sub-cap, if you weren't in a T3, T2 logi, or T2 tackle, you weren't welcome. Mostly, if you were in a sub-cap, you weren't welcome.

      I remind you this was a minor skirmish over the fate of a few supers.

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    2. I fail to see how this is an issue. If you do something dumb in high sec or in low sec the game is unforgiving too. If you are a big player and play with supers you have to act as such and not make big mistakes.

      I don't understand what's "broken" here.

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    3. It's not a matter of "not in T3/T2, not welcome" but a matter of how good some of those compositions are. Nexus Fleet, for example, were there in a Tempest and Rupture Fleet.

      Also, when bashing Supers in relative safety, why would you not have everyone who can fly a capital fly a capital?

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    4. Jester im sorry But NC / PL is not known for its "new player" friendliens

      From my own perspecitve in CFC i have on numerous occation seen Rifters flying alongside our main battle doctrines why ? because place fillers only reason to remove them from fleet is if the fleet can be filled with a full doctrine ships and if thats true then a second fleet of scrimishers will be formed.

      and realy what do you expect drones outnumbered players 4-1
      thats the standard rate isn't it? remember 5 drones / ships


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  4. Well, most interactions in null are not like this. Most fights are far smaller. This is one of those Midway or Kursk type battles.

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    1. Kursk, was the largest armoured conflict in the history of the planet, and spread over a massive area, and lasted weeks. Midway consisted of primarily 3 carriers on the u.s side, plus the island of Midway's defense, versus the primary forward strike force of 4 Japanese carriers. They played cat and mouse with each other, and the u.s got lucky and nailed the Japanese when they were in the midst of refueling and refitting planes.

      To compare this blobfest to either real-life battle is just plain wrong.

      To put this in better Eve context, it would be the equivalent to the entirety of the European NATO and Warsaw Pact forces in 1970 all pouring into 100 square blocks in Berlin and duking it out.

      Null-sec online is indeed broken. CCP has totally been sucked into the concept that null sec blobfests actually are a good marketing tool, or have been completely co-opted by the RMT cartels. Either way, it is completely wrong for the long-term health of Eve.

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    2. I believe co-opted by RMT. Why ? I have compared sov nullsec to npc space.
      All anomalies grouped in one system allowing for safe farming.
      They do not remove the 100 bubbles on farming systems anymore when petitioned.
      Anomalies have been changed (after npc changes) so they do not attack drones anymore that allows for afk drone boats.
      NPC's have been changed so they instantly switch to any tackler that uses scrambler on the victim.
      Mobile depots now allowing ratting ships to fit a full rack of stabs and warp out.

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  5. Working as intended. No one is stopped from buying supers.

    Also, no one is forced to participate in this arena. It's not like they have something that you must have or you "lost EVE".

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    1. It is a problem because it's the marque selling point of the game.

      It very well may be the worst part of the game to 99% of the player base since the largest any of those battles ever got was 3000 out of Eve's 500,000, which is less than 1%. But it's the 1% of the game the press reports on, and that people come here looking for.

      So if the game has slowly but inexorably been moving toward being exclusive instead of inclusive to new players coming here for that type of gameplay... it's a problem. And it's one CCP needs to bring a sledgehammer to if it wishes to keep from cutting it's own feet out from under itself.

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    2. >i'm agreeing with gevlon in 2013

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  6. Part of the reason I left Null (probably never to return except as a roaming visitor) was the writing was on the wall for this kind of fleet. I've had a much more fun and considerably more freedom of action in LowSec ever since.

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  7. Srsly Jester you are responsible for my small heart attack this morning (@this post) ;)

    We are really paranoid when it comes to intel :)
    ----
    eciu

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  8. I don't know what else you expect, everybody wants to whore onto super kills. Capitals are mobile and you want a decent carrier base for your own Dreads / Supers so they are not vulnerable. Intercepters are the ship of choice to get there fast if you can't field a capital.

    With respect to sub-caps - T3 cruisers are the current FOTM due to BS sized tank (or better) whilst maintaining all the benefits of a cruiser. The only thing I find shocking about that DSCAN is somebody showed up in shield battleships as they usually get bombed to annihilation.

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    Replies
    1. The Tempest were Nexus Fleet's, the people bashing the tower before the SOLAR supers dropped in. Nexus is a much lower sp alliance than a lot of others, and therefore alliance ops are done in cheaper, easier to train ships.

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  9. I did a year in Sov-null, but I find myself having a lot more fun in NPC null.

    Providence is the only sov-region that's any fun.

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  10. nest thing was, with that many supers on field, i was sitting there in my subcapital ship and wasnt able to lock anything for like1 hour, fired like 5 rounds the entire fight.

    not because of soulcrushing lag. because of remote ecm spam every few seconds ^^

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  11. "irretrievably broken"? Is that just a loose choice of words or a council of despair? Surely everything is fixable in a game if the designers are bold enough? They could just delete supers tomorrow...

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  12. Those scans lack a player built gate leading to unknown space, as more places to pile shit until the node crashes or someone gives up is exactly what the game needs.

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  13. Thank god for carriers and super carriers to be honest. There needs to be a suitably expensive counter to just piling in as many battleship fleets as possible to stop the game from stagnating.

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  14. Highsec and lowsec are boons for subcaps. FW is almost entirely subcap. Null has tons and tons of subcap fights everyday that don't get recognized because they're usually smaller scale. IE: who cares about a 20 man hurricane fleet derp'd in curse or sov?? Which is why you don't hear about it. My point in all this, is that subcaps have tons of content in this game, tons of opportunities and constitute the -vast- majority of fighting in Eve. They don't have to be mandatory for every fight like Jester's reply above insinuates (but I still bet solar are wishing they brought subcaps for support).

    Capital pilots most often have their caps locked in station or a pos and only rarely get to bring them to a fight, which is why when there's a cap fight all the cap pilots want in on it, leaving fewer pilots to man the subcaps. Not to mention the logistics of jumping a subcap fleet around trying to keep up with a carrier group and trying to FC and coordinate two seperate groups plus other friendly alliance assistance. Certainly not impossible, but its very difficult to organize on a short term gank opportunity like this fight was.

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  15. Broken? No. It makes perfect sense given the constrains in the game.

    If you look at it economically, the "capital ships" are pretty cheap and can be replaced in no time given high motivation. It is a game that many individuals can own 1 thousand carriers if they wished. It can be seen more as embarrassing that a entire alliance couldn't field the wealth equal to that of a individual.

    A capital ship in Eve is very unlike one in real life, that costs significant fraction of national economies to build and run. It is very unlike, say the Imperial Japanese Navy where the fleet consumes over 30% of ALL fuel (consider army, air force and industrial needs) of Japan, not to say the multi-year long build times taking up shipyards that can be counted on one hand and likes. Push it too hard and real world economies could collapse on its weight as USSR did.

    The top heavy fleet comps is also a result of functional unit cap due to server capacity and high account costs. If accounts costs nothing and servers have infinite processing power we'd be seeing millions of pilots in one system just as people "blob" hard, like deciding the fate of Europe by redshirts lining up shoulder to shoulder in a battlefield that could barely hold them.

    History is about the linear progression of communications and organizations that enables the blobbing of a dozen people to blobbing with millions with very expensive equipment.

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  16. I've said it for years, but it bears repeating: balance only flows consistently through economics.

    If all capital ships had maintenance and/or operation costs that came through moon minerals instead of ice, siphons would have quite the lease on life if the focus on moon minerals were renewed. Keeping a division between T2 production chains and capital warfare is also a mistake. If CCP wants to nerf bottlenecks without hindering the will to power, they need to make strategic resources more strategic. If nothing else, they could add ice moons.

    Getting caps to have a bit more attrition means making it riskier to not use them.

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  17. This is a fight at the highest level of a massive sov war between two huge entities. What do you expect? Should we agree to some sort of space honor and only bring in 100 supers?

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  18. Jester, you sir are way off on this one. Your lack of null & bloc experience is showing.

    Not a bad thing, really. Just not your specialty that's all.

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  19. The Curator is the most-used drone, nice to see something other than Gallente or Minmatar drones on field.

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