Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Tuesday, January 28, 2014

Explaining B-R to your uncle

Lots of other blogs are writing about B-R today. After chatting with CCP Manifest and CSM8 member Ali Aras last night, I thought it would be interesting to write a piece looking at the battle from a completely "outside EVE" perspective. In short, if you were trying to explain what happened in B-R to your uncle who has never played a computer game in his life, how would you do it?

So here's what I came up with. National magazines usually run 1000 word human interest stories on this sort of thing, with a 150 word side-bar attached (a side-bar is an article within an article that clarifies some critical point). So here it is: 1000 words about B-R for a general audience with a 150 word side-bar. EVE players will note I have deliberately simplified critical points here and there while trying to retain overall accuracy. What do you think?


EVE Online is a game about spaceships. As Star Wars and Star Trek have taught us, sometimes spaceships get blown up. And sometimes it happens in large numbers. This is a story about how $300,000 in spaceships were blown up in EVE Online.

Developed more than ten years ago by the Icelandic company CCP, EVE Online is an MMO somewhat like World of Warcraft. WoW is focused on a fantasy world of swordsmen and sorcerers; in EVE Online players take the role as private owners of spacecraft. But while Han Solo was content owning a single spacecraft, EVE players have the options of owning dozens or more. Only one can be flown at any given time, but each must be purchased and outfitted and each serves a specific role within the game. Some are good for trading, others for exploration, and others... others are good for shooting at other EVE Online players.

And that -- finding other EVE players and blowing up their spaceships... and then telling the story afterward -- has been the engine that has driven the game's success for the last ten years.
Within the game, each player may purchase ships ranging in size from sub-capitals -- frigates, cruisers, battleships -- to capital ships to the so-called "super-capitals." These ships have an escalating cost measured in the game's currency, called ISK. A frigate will cost a player between one million and 50 million ISK depending on the specific type of frigate. Cruisers range from 50 million to 250 million. Money is earned in game through gathering resources, running in-game missions, or through building in-game items for other players. Typically, an income source in-game is considered "good" if it is worth 100 million ISK per hour, meaning that a single cruiser will represent anything from a half-hour to two hours worth of work to acquire.

As a player's time in-game increases, that player can afford to purchase a larger fleet of ever-larger, more capable ships. Battleships range from a half-billion to a full billion ISK or more, capital ships are multi-billion ISK investments, and a super-capital ship can cost up to 100 billion ISK or more, representing months or years of effort on the part of the player that acquires one.
EVE is also an on-line social experience: players usually join "corporations", groups of players led by another EVE player. A corporation is typically a few dozen or perhaps a few hundred individuals, the size limited by the charisma and organizational skills of the single leader. These corporations can then join alliances of like-minded corporations to form organizations hundreds or thousands of players strong. The game of EVE Online takes place in a galaxy called New Eden, and the structure is set such that alliances can conquer parts of New Eden, taking them away from other players and exploiting the resources there for the benefit of that alliance's players.

Think of it like any naval battle you've ever read about or seen in a movie, just with more nerds. Once an area of space is conquered, the resources of that area can be exploited but there are also in-game costs associated with owning that are of space that must be paid monthly.

Sometimes alliances themselves can themselves ally with each other in surprisingly complex dances of diplomacy; one of the diplomats killed in Benghazi in 2012, Sean Smith, spent some of his off-time as an EVE Online diplomat. These new organizations -- called coalitions in game -- are made up of thousands of EVE players and have the ability to form fleets of hundreds or thousands of EVE players.

Players, corporations, or alliances who do not wish to spend time gathering their money in-game may purchase ISK in the form of an in-game item called a "PLEX" from CCP for about $18 U.S. At the moment, this amount of money is worth about 600 million ISK. This also establishes a "real world" value for every object in the game. A battleship worth 600 million ISK is therefore worth about $18, though CCP prohibits selling in-game assets for real-world currency. As a result, once an asset is created and purchased in the game, it's only good for getting blown up... which is where this story started.

Since Halloween of last year, two EVE Online coalitions have been at war for control of the "southeastern" portion of New Eden. The coalition owning the area, known as "N3", has for several months been under attack by a coalition of Russian player alliances. N3 has been assisted by an alliance called Pandemic Legion; the Russians have been assisted by a coalition known colorfully as the Clusterfuck Coalition (CFC). And for months these four large groups have been going at each other for control of this area of space in ever-larger space battles. Each of these battles has been relatively large in scope. In a recent large fight, for instance, 500 billion ISK worth of spaceships were destroyed by N3 in the process of capturing a strategic CFC objective.

N3 had been providing an area of space that included a space station for their Pandemic Legion allies to dock and repair their ships after each battle, and to use as a staging area for bringing more ships into the fight. Maintaining this area and its space station was something that had a continuing cost in-game that had to be paid. And yesterday, N3 failed to pay that bill. That left that area of space and its station open to anyone who could bring the muscle to take over, and the Russian coalition moved in strongly. N3 and PL, unwilling to cede the important staging area to their enemies, brought in a larger fleet. The Russians called in their CFC allies and at each stage, both sides escalated the size and scope of the fight until hundreds of the largest ships in EVE were engaged. At its peak, some 2500 EVE players were directly involved in the main battle, while hundreds more fought in side actions in nearby areas. The battle raged for about 18 continuous hours.

And by the time it was over, nearly 100 "super-capital" ships worth about 100 billion ISK each had been destroyed, as well as nearly 500 capital ships worth anywhere from two to five billion ISK each. Total cost of the ships destroyed in this battle? 10 trillion (with a T!) ISK.

With a "good" in-game income source, you could pay that cost in something over 11 years of continuous EVE play, assuming you were able to play the game 24 hours per day for that 11 years. Or if you tried to pay that cost buying CCP's in-game currency, that would set you back some $300,000 U.S. It will take EVE's ship-builders months or years to build replacements.

Though not the largest battle in EVE's history, it now holds the record -- by far! -- as its costliest. If you're curious, the Russian coalition and their CFC allies won this round by a large margin. Whether this is the battle that ends that war still remains to be seen: there are still plenty of other spaceships in EVE Online to blow up.


  1. i fear my uncle who never played a computer game wont ever read your blog or ccp twitter messages or press releases.

  2. "This is a story about how $300,000 in spaceships were blown up in EVE Online."
    Stop. Just. STOP.
    You wanna know why? Simple. ^^ THAT up there, is ALL the average non-EVE player bothers reading or seeing. They do NOT scroll down to your fine print: "Players, corporations, or alliances who do not wish to spend time gathering their money in-game may purchase ISK in the form of an in-game item called a "PLEX" from CCP for about $18 U.S. At the moment, this amount of money is worth about 600 million ISK. This also establishes a "real world" value for every object in the game. A battleship worth 600 million ISK is therefore worth about $18, though CCP prohibits selling in-game assets for real-world currency."

    I'm sorry to say but you and the rest of the pseudo- and real-media throwing around the "dollar value" of what was destroyed, are hurting EVE far more than helping it.

    Yes, "$300K in spaceships destroyed" makes headlines. BUT! It's a headline about a _game_. Think people picked through the whole article to find out that "well, it's actually a sorta-kinda guesstimate equivalent to real-world-dollars", or do you think they just take that statement at face value, and now think that you have to pony up (and lose) real cash to play EVE?
    Judging by the Facebook sharing and hashtag-trending, the latter is actually-factually what is going on.
    The Public-at-Large thinks that people REALLY lost $300K of _real money_.

    Is it then any wonder why we can't break the "30K plateau" when people think they're going to lose real money in an "open-world PvP sandbox MMO"?

    1. An hour to make 100m isk = 1/6 a plex = it takes 6 hours of grinding at being a nerd sitting alone starting at a monitor, clicking a keyboard and moving a mouse.
      Pretty FREAKING sure that's everyone thinking we make $3/hr working in eve.
      So, yeah, that means 100,000 nerd hours.

    2. I'm sorry to break this to you but poor people don't play EVE. Only those with time and resources to gamble keep the game engine chugging. Poker faced paranoids the world over get a pleasurable shiver in their cold cavernous hearts at the thought of inflicting such losses. That headline directly appeals to EVEs target audience.

    3. come on, the online gambling sites are doing just fine...

    4. Sorry dude. But there is a Real Life value attached to ISK. And ut's insulting that you accuse the general public of being too stupid to understand the words "would be equivalent to".

      Bad mood ? Why don't you leave the computer behind today and go out and get some air for a change.

    5. This, so very much this. I wish the whole "$X,000 destroyed" would die in a horrible fire, precisely for the reasons stated above.

      It is, from an EVE player's point of view, a simple measuring stick to explain the ISK value to someone else. PLEX offers a comparison with the real world, however the comparison is merely a fiction. The EVE player understands how that measuring stick works and what it means: obviously a "$150 ship" doesn't mean that anyone paid $150 for it, nor that it can be (legally) exchanged for $150. Someone who has never played EVE will not know this, and will see EVE as another free-to-play pay-to-win games that many gamers want nothing to do with.

      Imagine you are talking to an alien who has never seen Earth or any human before. You try to explain the distance between two towns. Since both you and the alien share the same physical features, you can say that the towns are three days of walking away. But, knowing nothing about Earth culture or technology, the alien would now think that we're in a pre-industrial era without any transportation devices, because we walk everywhere! Wouldn't it serve you better to explain the concept of a "meter" in comparison to something the alien would know (for example, your height, or simply stretch out your arms and say "this big"?)

      Would you say that a sportsman won a silver Olympic medal, which is worth $490?
      (I multiplied the weight of a 2012 Olympic medal from wiki by today's price of gold and silver. TIL gold medals are made of mostly silver.)

      Ripard even offered a less flawed comparison himself: the average ISK income per hour. While this has its own flaws (boiling down to "not everyone makes their ISK the same way"), it's still more accurate to say "this player had to play the game for 6 hours to afford this ship" than to imply "This player paid $18 to buy this ship". In the scope of a game this makes much more sense.

      If you want to use a PLEX analogy as an out-of-game comparison, I would phrase it something like this:

      "In EVE, players have the option of playing for free, by buying an in-game PLEX item. Each PLEX is good for one month's subscription, which usually costs $15. The price of a PLEX is not set by the game designers, it is driven by real forces of supply and demand on the global player market of EVE. Currently the price of a PLEX is about 600 million ISK. This means that for the price of a supercapital ship (30b), the player could have instead chosen to play EVE for free for several years!"

      You introduce PLEX without implying it is a CCP-sanctioned RMT method, you offer a comparison between real choices someone has to make when buying their ship, and you still compare ship value to something an average gamer would understand. As a bonus you lure new players to try EVE out by offering them the concept of playing for free and mentioning the open market.

      (Apologies for the rant. Originally I only wanted to post the first sentence, but I decided to explain more.)

    6. Wow Hong, gotcher panties inna bunch there bro? LOL

      Look, the $ to ISK ratio is real, as long as CCP says we can buy PLEX for $ and sell PLEX ingame for ISK then there exists a direct and real correlation between RW ‘money’ and VW ‘money’ and that’s that.

      You say this is all hurting us all because of the negative press… I have said it before and I will say it again, “ANY and ALL publicity is GOOD publicity for the game, CCP and the players.”

      As we all know explaining EVE to non-gamers (hell even other gamers sometimes) is really difficult… but the 'monetary loss estimates', now those everyone understands! And they generate a LOT of interest. And that lot of interest can bring new blood into the game and that is nothing but a bag full of win.

      And, as for all those out there actually thinking someone lost a personal $300,000… well, (1) if they don’t join, that’s ok… I mean, they aren’t very smart now are they? Think on it, they simply aren’t. And EVE is not a game for the faint of heart nor the slow of wit now is it? Do you really want our skies full of John_Q._Pubbie and his 14 y.o. bucktoothed boy? Do you want WoW denizens and drooling themeparkers and teenagers sharing YOUR sky? I sure as hell don’t… let ‘em be afraid of the ‘cost’… If they are too slow witted to read the whole thing and understand it, then they will never realize is in the end it aint the ‘money’ that counts… EvE is harder, and more real, than that.

      I don’t know about you, but I for one love playing a game where I have only once in 3 years known for a fact that I was sharing the sky with someone under 18… and he was about the most mature 16 y.o. I have ever met. EvE and its players are harsh and hard… and Loss IS Real… And by the gods of the eternal black may it always be so….

    7. The $/ISK ratio is real, the dollar cost of the spaceships lost is not.

      I've had a dozen people at work today ask me about how much money I spend on the game if people are losing $300k in one fight ("wouldn't you buy a house instead?").

      The focus on dollar-equivalent-value lost is damaging to the game. End of story.

      People out there are smart: they see Candy Crush Saga costing tens of dollars just to get through a few hard levels. They see EVE Online players losing $300k in one fight. They generalise (as humans do) and figure that the $300k was money put into the game to beat a hard level.

      Quoting hundreds of spaceships, or years of effort, would be much more meaningful.

    8. Thanks for all the attention, as well as anecdata that proves my point! After all, how many of you replying actually read my whole comment? Judging by the replies, not many. You guys did exactly as I predicted: read the first para, maybe half the second, guesstimated the rest, and snarked away.
      Good job on proving my point for me, it's not often I have people kind enough to do that, again thanks.

      I stand even moreso now by what I said: people by and large don't read whole articles, especially the fine print about how "actual money wasn't actually lost", ESPECIALLY if it's not something that's of particular personal interest.

      tl;dr: (and the mere fact I need to do that CONCLUSIVELY proves my theorem) EVE got a lot of publicity, even exposure to the non-gaming public. A sizable number walked away from that exposure thinking that "somebody" really actually lost *pinky to corner of mouth* three HUNDRED thousand dollars! Bwahahahaha!

      And you guys think I'm the idiot...

  3. The only problem is once to start explaining Time Dilation then the narrative loses a lot of oomph. Avatar Doomsday device, aka Judgement, delivers 2 million HP of EM base damage. Averaged out over the 600 second activation cycle time and you get 3,3333 dps. WOW AWESOME!

    Except that it's a lie because TiDi increases your cycle time to an hour (or more) and a 3,600 second activation cycle time gives you an average of 555 dps when you're sitting at your computer looking at the clock on the wall. That's the real DPS number because TiDi fundamentally (I would call it dishonestly) misstates how much time is elapsing. You can get a ship that does 555 dps for a hell of a lot less than 100 billion isk, and that's Damage Per REAL LIFE second, not some phony number that's cooked up to sound impressive.

    1. how much is that cheaper 555 dps ship kicking out in "fake tidi time" though? A hell of a lot less.

  4. "These corporations can then join alliances of like-minded corporations to form organizations hundreds of players strong."

    thousands- conveys true nullsec alliance scale better. same goes for the coalition explanation, the true number of pilots isn't being explained. How many people are in the CFC?

    The thing that always gets me with eve is the sheer number of people that come together in game. I could care less about the $ loss but, I know it is the dollar value that gets people reading.

  5. While I understand why you did it (Rote's need to up engage larger fleets). You rather overpriced ships.

  6. My inexpert opinion is that you spent too long setting the stage without telling the reader why they should care. If your uncle is wondering why you're so excited, this is a good explanation. If you're trying to get readers of Time, for example, to read about it, then you're going to need a better hook. I'd start with something about small mistakes being capitalized on by rivals for large costs, even just in the abstract, or maybe, given recent current events, a government shutdown or sovereign debt default comparison, if you think your audience won't react poorly to that. Nonetheless, I do think it's an order of magnitude better than the coverage the event has actually gotten. While your explanations are simple, none of them get a rating of "mostly true" from me, whereas some of the actually-published explanations I've seen do. On the other hand, the coverage it has gotten in any given publication has generally been half as long, at best. (Which half would you cut? Can you fit all the organizational background into a single paragraph?)

    On a more technical level, you seemed to switch erratically between expecting the reader to know nothing and expecting the reader to know popular modern acronyms. Do you expect the reader to know what a Massively Multiplayer Online Game (MMO[G]) is, or do you expect Bob, your grandfather who thinks computers are "too complicated" to understand your article? (Note: actual attitude of my grandfather) I expect a good editor would do a good job of making the expected level of expected knowledge is consistent, but I think he'd have his work cut out for him.

  7. Just a simple suggestion (in case you're gonna use this for RL applications):

    This is a story about how -> This is a story about the day where

    300K through the course of 10 years is less impressive than at a single event.

  8. Well, first I agree with Ranamar, he got good points.
    Then, IMHO, text is un-smooth at some places - could be because i feel you are "jumping" from sub-theme to sub-theme rather erraticaly. Could be the paragraph starting with "Think of it like any naval battle..." is excess... Also, in next para, connecting to real world people is another jump out of the theme ... And similar things. That said, my nitpicking comes from understanding you ask for opinion about "national magazine article". But overall impression is fine, though me neither like "hard-comparing" ISK (loses/values) to real world money :)

  9. You also leave out that CCP artificially capped the numbers allowed into the system at 2500 so that the first on the field had the distinct advantage in numbers and that anyone else attempting to enter the fray was left in a warp tunnel unable to assist their fellow alliance members. SO.. As sucky as TIDI really is, the work around no longer works and we are back to capacity limits on the system fights so that CCP doesn’t have to take the "OMG the node crashed again" technical beating that they deserve. Meanwhile those of us who do actually invest time and energy into this commitment are left wondering, what might have happened if CCP's inadequate hardware and software could standup to a full-fledged open system bring it till it hurts fight?

    1. The work around works: you can have a battle with 2600 pilots on field for 21 hours and nobody blackscreens, all module activations occur as expected, you have no ghost ships, and the fight wasn't won by the people lucky enough to not crash.

      The outcome of this workaround is also as expected: when CCP doubles the capacity of a node, the players will bring triple the number of combatants.

  10. let's say i spend 50 hours a week on this game. that's 2600 hours spent doing a theoretical "good" return on that investment of 100m isk/hr. Say i've played this game a decade, so i should have...what? 2.6 trillion isk by now.

    weeeee...oh wait

    1. If you spent all your time running SoE missions or Incursions, it might even be true...

      That said, I feel like many (most?) highsec denizens make closer to 50M/h than 100M/h.

    2. Incursions, wormhole sites, and sites in upgraded sov null-sec can all be farmed for 100m/hour easily.

    3. How do you get 100M/h out of upgraded sov short of carrier ratting in Sanctums? I seem to recall people saying that 60-90M/h was pretty good with a hub talos, and that was apparently good enough to necessitate a nerf.

      Meanwhile, incursion runners and wormhole denizens are described as "absurdly rich" by many people who aren't them. Do you think this is because their income is out of whack, or is it because they spend more time grinding for money than other players?

      Incidentally, my income went up a massive amount when I started doing T1 manufacturing (which nets 1-200M/day) instead of trying to shoot red crosses for income, so clearly I was doing something wrong before. I'm just wondering how many EVE players actually ever see this 100M/h, even with you pointing to effective ways to realize it. (Can you get the graph machine people at CCP to generate graphs about this, so that they, at least know?)

    4. I did it routinely living in Pure Blind with a pair of Tengus. And Pure Blind is among the worst regions to upgrade in New Eden.

    5. I'm noticing a bunch of things about this "solution":
      1) >1B ISK startup costs, to buy and fit two Tengus. Weren't you complaining startup costs for newbies was too high? Like, here, two years ago: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/01/strangled-in-crib.html
      2) Two accounts required. I know there's only one player, but I'm going to penalize multi-boxing by dividing that income by the number of characters required. I know having an alt probably means you only need to keep one character in ships, but otherwise two buddies doing this, instead of you and an alt, means neither of them is hitting your stated goal of 100M/h. Could you do 200M/h with your dual-boxed Tengus?
      3) Both of those characters are probably at least 6 months old to have support skills. Again, I have the "what if two friends instead of you and an alt are running it?" question.

      I guess I have a bit of a pet peeve that my experience in EVE is that the answer to the question, "How do I fund myself?" is, "get an alt". This is a shitty answer, even if it does make CCP more money. It's not a less shitty answer if you make getting that alt easy. Instead, it freezes out people who don't have the hardware or stubbornness or whatnot to devote an extra account to the simple task of funding themselves. I don't mind people who want to do big things (like fly titans) needing to invest in extra characters, but the idea that you need to do that if you just want to fly ships bigger than destroyers in a pvp situation makes me pretty angry.

      Sorry for the rant; having once been an L4 mission runner who felt like he wasn't getting anywhere monetarily, implying that everyone can easily fund a cruiser without much effort hits my berserk button.

    6. '>1B ISK startup costs'

      So that is like $40 cash that you can farm back fast ;-)
      Or alternatively just 30 hours or so of bomber farming or L4s in a T1 battleship or just asking a friend for a loan which ends up most of the time in the gift of those tengus, machariels or whatever you want to use. Heck, my first battleship (mael) was gifted by a complete stranger just because I mentioned that I was broke.

      It is literally pocket money for anyone who cares about farming.
      And btw, I did make about 100M/hour with L4s before the L4 change. Incursions with my groups were money lost and fun gained most of the time at least with the usual pub groups with 3 logistics and in the 'good' old vanguard times and all the downtimes and travel times that come with pubs.

  11. Where do you stand on the proposal for a permanent in game feature recording this player lead event? https://plus.google.com/u/0/102805802273758353759
    There are plenty of lorish debris fields littered around New Eden. I'd like to see something a little more exotic like a new mine-able moon or two depending on the calculated mass. Not sure how feasible that is but it'd be very satisfying to see.

    1. I think the warpable lore site will be enough, honestly. Gives CCP a chance to show off their new wreck models.

  12. Since everybody is an editor today, I'll point to the second paragraph where you use "But while...." to start two consecutive sentences. Its a poor style choice and interrupts the otherwise nice flow. Could I suggest replacing the second "But while..." with "And although..."?

  13. Seems to me that it's sufficient to say that an equivalent of $300,000 was lost by everybody involved, that value based on the in-game value of tradeable $15 playtime tokens. I don't think that's any more confusing or incomplete than actually trying to explain it.

  14. In addition to what others said, I think the article is a bit to technical and goes into too much detail.

    For example, is any reader really interested in learning about ISK per se, or would it be better to talk about time or magnitude ("like a battlecruiser can be earned within an hour of play" or "a battleship is about 3 times as expensive as a battlecruiser" or something like that).

    Also, I as a 2-year old EVE player, with no particular interest in 0-sec groups but reading news, have often a hard time following the who-is-who. Here, you introduce 4 parties, with (for the non-EVE player) senseless names, including their abbreviations. Sorry, but 3 sentences later everyone forget whether CFC was aggressor or defender.

    In short, the article is difficult for a non-gamer, but for your non-computer uncle, you have to dumb it down a lot (not dumb as in not intelligent, but in the sense of simple terms instead of complex). Even comparing to WoW is a difficult thing (a lot of non-computer people may have heard about it, but they don't associate much with it).

    Or a part where it is too dry for me: When you explain cooperation... it sounds to me like you try to explain the structure of a fortune 500 company to me. Maybe that would work better with an example or something like that.

    But overall, I like you try. Maybe some newspapers won't post such misinformed stuff then.

  15. You forgot to mention how un-fun TidI fights are, and how if you live in nullsec you are forced into taking part in these un-fun fights on a regular basis

    1. Yeah, that's kind of a matter of opinion. I agree with you, but lots of people -- thousands of people, in fact -- like them. Else they would not participate.

    2. I think that number is debatable..... The reason people take part in TiDi fights is not because they are fun, but because they are alliance/coalition objectives. I would be surprised if even 20% of the people that take part in them are enjoying themselves.

    3. I don't really think thousands of people like TiDi fights, it just an ugly thing we have to deal with if we live in null. In reality TiDi fights are the worst gaming experiences I have ever had, and I have played some pretty crappy games over the years.

    4. And yet you keep doing them week after week after week.

  16. I think this as about as good a laymans description I've seen. I realize the real money equivalent bothers people but I think its an important distinction to make to offer perspective.

    I tend to not view EVE as a game and more of a hobby. Frankly I believe there are worse ways to spend your free time and I guarantee people waste more time watching TV and more money paying cable bills than I do with my hobby. That being said this was a pivotal moment for this hobby, lots of people put a lot of effort into that which has been destroyed. It is right to discuss this because I think those efforts and sacrifices in the name of this hobby should be lauded.

    In the grand scheme of all things EVE this fight or one like it has been needed for awhile. The only way to deal with SuperCap proliferation, and Titans in particular was for one group to trap another and kill off a big number of them.

    This is a good start.

  17. I'd be interested to see your opinion on this. Me, I think the writer knew nothing about the game or is actively trying to put people off it.


  18. Every time I talk about 100M ISK/hr, people claim I'm dodging up figures. What does Jester do for 100M ISK/hr?

    1. I don't do anything for that because I don't do PvE in EVE right now. But incursions, wormholes, upgraded sov system sites, and high-end market trading and industry can all make that kind of ISK.

  19. i figure 1 icicle per minute (without orca boosts) on a shield buffer mack = 212k isk refined...so i make 13% of the best revenue out there.

    pretty sobering thought, especially when ice seems to be, per m3, the best of the high sec (compared to non-anomaly ore) revenue stream for miners.

    I wonder how close level 4 mission grinders get nowadays with marauders?

    1. Mining is never gonna be a prime income source in EVE because it's low-effort, low-risk. That's intentional.

  20. Yawn... didn't even notice that this battle was going - don't really care.

    These battles look great on the spreadsheet, but are boring as hell to participate in.


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