Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Wednesday, March 12, 2014

A world without sin

OK, this is going to need a bit of explanation. And to do it, I'm going to completely spoil Firefly and Serenity. So if you're one of the 11 EVE players who hasn't watched the series and the follow-on movie, you can either fix that and then come back to this post (and that's the option you should take, since that will only take 16 hours) or you can be thoroughly spoiled. Don't say you weren't warned.

Over the next couple of weeks, I'm going to write a whole series of posts about what I see happening to EVE Online culture. In the process, I will also probably mention how CCP might have to try to put the brakes on what's happening with that culture. But to understand the posts, you're going to have to understand the Reavers, so here goes. Those familiar with the lore of Firefly can skip the next three paragraphs.

If you only look on the surface, the Reavers are very science-fiction horror stereotypical bad guys: they appear to be mindless, thoughtless zombies intent on inflicting pain and death. Think of any zombie flick you've ever seen, then somehow give them the ability to pilot spacecraft. That's the Reavers. As character Zoe Washburne famously put it, if they catch you, they will kill you, rape you, and use your skin to make their clothing... and if you're very lucky, they'll do it in that order. And all of us have seen enough horror movies to know the words to that song.

Only it's not nearly that simple. Over the course of the series and into the follow-on movie, it becomes apparent (through good writing alone) that the Reavers are neither mindless nor thoughtless. They enjoy the pain they inflict. They specifically eschew quick easy kills in favor of first inflicting panic, despair, fear, and agony. Even with a victim very clearly at their mercy, they toy with the victim and draw out the kill, savoring the victim's suffering every bit as much as the victim's flesh.

Then, if that weren't bad enough, the movie reveals that the creation of the Reavers was an accident inflicted by the government within the lore of Firefly ("the Alliance") on their own people! It wasn't intentional, and it quickly spiraled out of the government's control, but an attempt to use drugs (nicknamed "the Pax") to generate a passive, non-violent, controllable population massively backfired... resulting in the deaths of millions of people. But it also results in the creation of the Reavers, a tiny minority who are so resistant to the Pax that it had the opposite of the intended effect.

To those of you who already knew the lore of Firefly, welcome back. I've just explained how the Alliance -- in an attempt to create a controllable population -- used the Pax on some of their own people with the opposite of the intended effect: it backfired massively and created a race of humans that enjoy inflicting pain, panic, suffering, and eventually death. These humans then spiraled completely out of the Alliance's control.

If this analogy isn't sinking in with you yet, let me spell it out clearly:
  • CCP is the Alliance.
  • The Pax is EVE Online.
  • The people killed by the Pax are the players that quit the game very early.
  • The people killed by the Reavers are the players driven out of the game.
  • The Reavers are everyone who's left: you, not to put too fine a point on it.
Oh sure, there are still a very few of you out there resisting the Pax. There are still a very few of you out there plying the space-lanes of New Eden without the desire to inflict pain, suffering, and death. The Reavers think of you as food.

Just... you know... FYI.

Now, of course EVE attracts new players. It's been doing so for years. But increasingly, what kind of players are being attracted? Needless to say, I think this is having an impact on CCP's ability to attract new players who aren't already half-Reaver. But I'll get to that in due course.

So over the next few weeks I'm going to do some writing about what I think got us here... and -- as I find public evidence for it -- what CCP might be doing to try to stem the tide. Buckle your seatbelts, kids.


  1. <3

    Thank you for tackling this.

    As I've mentioned in comments before, I played in '03-'04, 06'-'07, and now again in '13-'14. The difference in the scale of ganking and griefing between those periods is monumental.

    On one hand, CCP doesn't want to interfere with the sandbox-- on the other hand, the structure of incentives is such that ganking is rampant, and, well. We all know where this goes.

    So. Thank you, again, for tackling this!

    1. I agree completely! CCP only made it easier to gank, while reducing the cost with the addition of the new battlecruisers-tornado, etc. Decreased risk/increased potential for reward. Kill an innocent, recently? NP. buy some tags.

      As for null, who wants to be a renter/pet? Will we all keep plexing or paying for the next year while the blue doughnut engulfs all sov null?

      CCP seems to enjoy a diet of bologna with cold mac and cheese as an occasional treat. Why would they continue to pander to such a destructive base? Since when is it healthy for any population to eat their young, or drive them away before they are mature.

      Perfectworld just announced a banner year with profits higher than expected. Star Citizen just reached 40 mil. I would love for Eve to experience the same financial growth, and with it see more devs hired to improve Eve content. Who of us in Eve wouldn't want to see CCP succeed, assuming that meant a better game for us?

    2. Killing or weeding out the weak is always healthy for any population, because it helps to raise stronger breed. Remember proverbial Spartans throwing weak infants off the cliffs.

    3. "Since when is it healthy for any population to eat their young, or drive them away before they are mature."

      As a new player (about a month in) who hasn't been driven away (yet), the type of people I would see being driven away are honestly too soft for the game OR the dumbasses that put real money into it and then get blown up. Neither of these people need to be playing Eve. If Eve were about less risk, then what would it be about honestly? The risk is fun in my opinion. I don't go into low sec unless I'm in a ship I'm willing to lose. I have a partner who is able to tell me a decent amount about the game (he has his faults though, and doesn't know everything) and fit me into some decent ships. I'm slowly learning when/how to run, when to stay, when to fight, and in general how to survive. And even though I know all of this, I still know that someone *might* kill me for funsies if they want, even in high sec. I anticipate this and prepare for it and so when it finally happens, I hopefully won't be too mad.

      What *is* possibly going to drive me away from the game is the fact I'm not seeing any other point besides making isk, to get into better ships, to make more isk or kill people. In that aspect, OP is right. Other than making isk (through mining, pvp, pve, market, manufacturing, any I'm misssing) and killing people (PvP, faction warfare, system control) there isn't that much to the game. Now, I realize by listing all those things I make it sound like it's a lot. But to a new player, it can be seen as: making isk and killing people. That's it. There's a few epic arcs, I think. The game has some awesome lore, but when it boils down to it, it is about those two things. And that's where I'm finding the game a bit pointless and not sure if I want to stick with it for the long haul. I'm enjoying it now. I'm hoping to one day plex my account, but whether or not I will *want* to do that and continue as a user depends on how much time I'd have to spend doing things to plex it. Until then I'll pay for it for awhile.

      So, just my two cents as a noob. My opinion probably will change as I play more. Also, it's probably important to note that I have a lot of help since my boyfriend also plays Eve. I think if it weren't for him, I'd be pretty lost and would be having a much harder time, since the learning curve is pretty steep.

    4. "Killing or weeding out the weak is always healthy for any population, because it helps to raise stronger breed. Remember proverbial Spartans throwing weak infants off the cliffs."

      Wow, a Nazi. So nice of you to join our conversation. Should we also kill the Jews and any other race you deem as "weak?"

    5. I was mostly thinking about animal behaviour and Spartans came to mind as outstanding example of such behaviour in history of mankind. But Eve is somewhat similar. It's challenging game that drives away anyone who can't stand the challenge. Moreover, the challenge is often delivered not by the game itself, but by other players. In the end, those who can't stand challenges or don't like being challenged, quit. Therefore, only groups and individuals of stronger nature keep playing. HTFU is still the motto.

    6. "Killing or weeding out the weak is always healthy for any population, because it helps to raise stronger breed. Remember proverbial Spartans throwing weak infants off the cliffs."

      Wow, Genius here can't even Google what happened to the Vaunted Spartan Empire. Yeah, that whole selection thing?....screwed em in the end.

    7. "Killing or weeding out the weak is always healthy for any population, because it helps to raise stronger breed. Remember proverbial Spartans throwing weak infants off the cliffs."

      So... where are the Spartans now?

    8. ALL newborns IRL and noobs IVL are weak and helpless, especially in EvE. And according to Anon-3:02, we should be trying to force ALL noobs to ragequit… idiot.

      If a noob is not (1) an additional account owned by an older player, (2) or a new player who has RL friends who are vets or (3) immediately join EUni or BNI (or lucky to join an actual vet non-scam corp)... then they CAN be very easily 'weeded' out... improving nothing, not even the grifer's killboard as any self respecting gamer would be ashamed.

      With the level of allowed, even supported, griefing in EvE (which I do not EVER want nerfed or removed, as that would KILL the only really true sandbox out there)... the open almost unrestricted PvP we have in EvE... I am curious if Ripard sees away out without nerfing the sandbox.

      If we EVER have a pvp free zone/system/systems/etc. it WILL BE a Trammel... and that KILLED Ultra Online. I also pray we never become just some version of WoW in Space... that's simply not what EvE is or ever should be… but there are things that I feel can be done to maximize new player attraction and retention. Here are three things I would push for were I a CCP Dev...

      (1) Realistic PvP Tutorials. Teach our children...

      (2) Incarna as it SHOULD have been rolled out… Avatar based gameplay IN EvE.

      (3) Greatly Improved PvE. Give more players more to DO... (guess I need to do a post huh?)
      Really improve PvE for them as wants it. DON'T nerf PvP, just give them as prefer PvE more, and more interesting things to do.

      There are many Industrialists and market Moguls in EvE who see PvP as a part of the cost of doing business... but they also see it as an exciting challenge. Instead of safely and perfectly running mining, refining and production, they find in EvE that in addition to the satisfaction that comes with sheer accomplishment, they have the added excitement and increased rewards that winning against the 'risk-is-real' element inherent in EvE creates.

      Yes, there are players who will not ever want to play EvE due to it's true open PvP 'risk-is-real' sandbox nature. Just as there are players who (like me) will never play WoW because of it's closed PvE risk-less themepark nature...

      We need to try and fulfill as wide a variety of playstyles as possible to entice many players to give EvE a try... there will be some, maybe not a 'lot' but some who will find the risk inherent in EvE an exciting challenge to be overcome, not a reason to ragequit... EvE is different, and it is a niche game, and I love it for those very reasons.

      Oh... and anyone who thinks griefing new players until you force them to ragequit is funny or in any possible way a 'good' thing for the game... is just a self centered idiot.

    9. I've been saying this about the tutorials on the forums. People are coming in from wow, being taught heres how to mine heres how to make stuff and heres how to do a pve mission, a quest just like wow. Have fun! then we get the $1300 ravens being ganked.

      Go back to wow? how about the tutorial teaching him how the game actually is? I want to see a pirate tutorial agent, that has you use a cargo scanner to find the right badger in a convoy to gank. To gank the pirate miner and to use a civilian cloaking device to crash a pirate held gate camp. Usefull skills to teach new players how the game ACTUALLY is.

  2. 1. Anyone with abit of foresight can see the current metagame are going to hurt new players that are already dealing with a huge learning curve (cliff) and then add the complex metagame on top of this and we are looking at least 2-3 years learning curve before you got a decent grasp on the game.

    2. Secondly trying to play EVE as the "Hero" are not easy within the currrent metagame and give you no reward. It's practically impossible to stop well trained "Reavers". It's like trying to defend Minas Tirith with 200 hobbits against a well trained army of 10.000 orks that have spies and theifs everywhere.
    Dont get me wrong, I think EVE need villains but they should get some kind of a penalty and directors need more tools to defend themself. Currently the metagame just sucks for honest people and it's beyond me why CCP let every villain and their friends get away with beeing a "Reaver" with zero penalty.

    Ideally, the penalty for beeing a villain would be lost trust.
    Without trust you cant do business but in Eve with chars beeing bought and sold, accounts beeing shared among several people even so it is against the EULA its close to impossible to track the deeds of a person on his various accounts and chars.
    It is therefore that one is unable to figure out who that other player is and if he is one of the honest type or not.
    Even Chribba could have a scamming alt somewhere and without the use of out-of-game tools that would make the NSA pround noone would know.

  3. I've just passed being in eve for 1 year now and I wonder where a player like myself fits into this.

    I've been in npc nul sec for the last four months doing pvp in small fleets (5-20) on an almost daily basis. The people I fly with are casual and fun, on top of that I still do missions and frequently hand out ships and supplies free of charge out of my own isk because I enjoy playing with these people and I want them in fleet.

    It's been a wild ride but the constant hate and bile spewing from coalition level players has begun to grate on me. Much as I enjoy what we do there are days where quitting corp and running off to some low sec corp like stay frosty would be worth it if only to be away from whatever it is that festers in the hearts of sov holding players.

    I'm stubborn enough to stick with it for now, but I wonder what lies in store for me do I eventually leave nul in disgust?

    1. Let's be honest. 90% of the hate and bile comes from one person in particular. I think we all know who that is.

    2. Couldn't disagree with you more. The hate and bile comes from WAY more than one person.

  4. Can't.....stop.......laughing.

    I need more beer.

  5. Just a small correction, your order is wrong with Zoe's line:
    "If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing – and if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order."

    I only mention it because you include the order part in yours.

    Back on the subject though, I still am of the opinion that in Eve as in the Firefly universe most people may be seen as food by the Reavers, but that doesn't stop them from continuing on and just avoiding them when they can.

  6. You raise your ugly risk-averse head again, Jester. tsk tsk.
    I wonder how innocently hypocritical people can be when they put pen to paper (fingers to keyboard) about a topic and forget to step back a bit to look at the scale of things. Jester has forgotten to mention this is a MMOG. Notice that blind spot? Every god damned thing we do in eve, no matter how 'carebearish' is a zero sum game - somehow we always impact the enjoyment of a mmog for others simply by existing in the same environ despite how removed you might be from actual direct tangible effect.

    Jester wants us to imagine a world without sin - a world where carebears frollick in meadows with their arms outstretched whirling like dervishes but never colliding with someone else's sandcastle.
    For what does Jester gain with such hyperbole he spews? Think about it: if you remove the concept of 'pvp' from "carebearing" and make 'pvp' the exclusive purvey of, for want of a better word, "griefing" where does risk go? where should the reward go? That's right, invested into reavers. Those bold daring risk taking scallywags who ply the trade routes in search of booty (and tears)
    He's romanticizing grief play in that they are the only ones who instill risk into this game and thus should reap the rewards.

    I don't like combat. I'm not averse to ganking things worth ganking, especially in low sec, nor do i shed tears when ganked myself. It's just i find that CCP needs to focus on other priorities than the killer types.
    I like it how they focus on exploration. I'm an explorer type through and through - after a decade playing i'm still broke (low achiever,) my corp is small (low socializer,) and my eve-kill stats sparse indeed.
    CCP really needs to focus on the achiever (the loner lvl4 combat missioners) and socializer (those actually interested in player groupings)
    I for one think the beta-code state of the corporate roles/titles/etc is indicative of the sloth the developers have for dealing with their own creation
    So, yes, to call eve "The Pax" would be the way the "Alliance" (ccp) has blinded itself to the cause of how easily tears can be extracted for such little effort.
    CCP needs to make it hard for spies/thieves/griefers to lay waste of social constructions via corporate mechanics - or at least make it not so flipping easy to do so and get away with it without a trace.

    1. MinorFreak, I can't tell if you are trolling or just somewhat insane...which I suppose means you've accomplished your mission, whatever it is.

    2. You didn't actually read this post did you MinorFreak? If you did, shame on you for being an atrocious person and / or a complete idiot.

    3. I can't wait until the first player-constructed gate that takes a year to build is "stolen" by some spy--simply because "they can." I agree that CCP needs to spend some dev time revamping legacy corp and pos mechanics.

    4. I had a long post running a response, but it rambled too far.

      The long and short of it, yes, more emphasis needs to go toward the enablers of this game. Those that organize, lead, and support other payers. For example, while I am happy that more fights happen in losec (I benefit directly) and that is less of a wasteland that it once was, effort needs to be spend on other aspects of EvE life.

      We need a bit of a shift toward making it easier to build, to guide, to maintain the social structures that hold EvE together. As pointed out, it is far too easy to pull down these structures (as they are built on trust) without repercussions.

      I am not in favour of the idea that the hisec misssion runner needs more help. What he or she needs is a community to suport their playstyle, and perhaps help that pilot look into all the other parts of the game. To sample. To try out. There is nothing wrong with a solo player that L4's. Sadly, it appears that such players are not long term players. If we want them to be long term players, they need to move to be not solo. The missioning part is fine - that is their desired playstyle, but lets make it easier for them to socialize while they do it. That will increase retention. It may also combat the Pax.

    5. Reading this blog for quite some time now I don't think I'd classify Jester as either "risk averse," "carebear," or that he's forgotten the EVE is a massively mutliplayer online game. In fact, From what I read of his post today his whole point hinges on the fact that EVE is a MMOG *and* a sandbox.

      As the saying goes "some men just want to watch the world burn." I think Jester is just pointing out that behavior in EVE and asking how it affects the game. Which, in my humble opinion as an 9 month old newbie to EVE, is an excellent question. I don't think *anyone* with a serious stake in this game wants to do away with non-consensual PvP. That is, afterall, one of the (many) cornerstones of this game. However, goading people into harming themselves in real life crosses a line that I think most players realize shouldn't be crossed. The question, then, is what to do with the players who not only cross that line but who gleefully cross that line at every single opportunity.

    6. Exactly, Knug Lidi. I'm not calling for more loner impetus for missioners (although in it's current state can you blame them?)
      They're great for standings averages for the corp, but contribute little in the way of group activities and are even worse for corp chatter. I find them insular and intent on finishing one last mission to the exclusion of anything else...even stubborn enough to continue missioning during wardecs.
      It's the passive aggressive attitude that strikes me.
      So how does CCP change the game in a way to encourages these folk, who i'm sure aren't antisocial by nature, to have time for other things?

      *longer mission expirations... increased ore potential for mining in missions (not mining missions)
      *more attractive hauling missions...perhaps lowering the hit to competing factions via storyline mission mechanics (say a derived negative hit that is inversely proportionate to how much courier missions one does)
      *Mining missions that actually have other ores than the exact amount of unique ores, and actually have some decent rats spawn (i've lost count of the number of new players thinking miners need escorts during missions)
      *More epic arcs
      *A journal tab for cosmos missions, that shows you which agents you've talked to (and thus can never chat with again, and a good indicator of who you have yet to run missions for)
      *And that's just the start of it...We really need a way to have mission runners not run so ragged. Yes, there are some who power through but why encourage such breakneck speed with time bonuses? How about introducing cooldown timers you can actually see in your agent peoples and places noone ever browses (for the 4 hour decline countdown)?
      *what about decreasing the reward for running an agent constantly during a day, but increasing the bonus across the board as a buff to counter that?
      *and for god's sakes, change the needed standings to access higher level agents. it's a bit ridiculous how quickly you can access the next higher level faster than you can train for the appropriate skills for a bigger ship. That is ridiculous!

  7. *but the saaaaaandbox!!!!*

    I'm tired of that argument. It's not miles of beach, it's a box. There are limits. And clearly some limits are good. Some scams are completely impossible in the game - I can't put a fresh coat of paint on t1 hobs and call them t2 and put them on the market. I just can't. If I could, the economy would grind to a halt.

    It is a dark and violent game, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. It's remarkably easy to awox for example. And because it's so prevalent, small corps don't recruit, and thus wither and die.

    I think though that it's *not* just sadism and cruelty though. The game's lack of clear victory condition means that tears are victory and well, that leads to some of the behaviour you describe. http://hspew.blogspot.ca/2014/03/eve-winning-and-tears.html

  8. Oh man, a series of blog posts detailing the culture of EvE, it's development, where to go from here, and all from the standpoint of a member of the CSM? Color me excited...regardless of whether or not I agree with you.

    Also, first.

    1. Oh man, not first. Comments, why do you not load until after I submit!

  9. I think majority of players are not reavers or reaver food. You saw the ship destruction graph, http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65749/1/productionVsDestruction_2013.png

    Highsec has about 10% part of it, that's 100B/day. For 150K highsec players, that's less than a million lost. So the average highsec player loses one Hulk a year to reavers. That's not that bad.

    What's REALLY bad is that Reavers get the publicity and CCP focuses on their problems and ship balances. Compare the care of balancing frigates with the obvious carelessness of industrial rebalancing. (Now T1 industrials are hands down better than T2)

    1. I agree, and although industrialists, marketeers and bare careers have squealed in discomfort to the delight of their persecutors from time immemorial they still grunt along doing the job feeding The Habit.
      I think we agree all the ying-yang is out of whack in New Eden but unless stubborn hard working peasants revolt in unison there will just be another clueless noob in line to pick up the hoe. People are the problem and the solution.

  10. I'm looking forward to the rest of the posts. Particulary proposals on what could be done to change things and how much of what is unique about EVE would we have to trade away for healthier culture.

  11. So... where'd this strange moralistic streak come from? Eve's always been this kind of game. Ganking, theft, and betrayal have been glorified ever since the early days, with Guiding Hand Social Club setting the pace. It's kind of notable that a new player can get killed and scammed out of hundreds or thousands of dollars in formerly-real-money assets. Even so, worse then that has been perpetrated and applauded for nearly a decade. There are many Eve players who got involved after hearing about GHSC, even years after the fact. You seem a little old to be just now realizing that there are sharks in these waters, but I haven't heard you complain like this before. What's changed?

    1. What's changed? The intensity level. It's escalating, year by year.

    2. More precisely, EVE has always been a game with loads of room for ganking, theft and betrayal. Not everyone plays that way, and history teaches us that pretending otherwise leads to flat subscriptions.

      Making a little extra room for non-PVP play doesn't have to detract much from the rollicking, cheerfully fratricidal gaming we all like to pretend to love. *If* that also attracts and retains more players, it's a formula that CCP should eventually find and exploit. It needn't threaten our manhoods, nor completely remove the possibility of epic n00b-scamming.

    3. If you're a parent, you'd know pretty well by now that kids really do have to be policed strictly about certain rules of using the sandbox.

      No pooping or peeing in the sandbox. No burying (dead) animals. Don't hit each other with the implements you use to build and destroy sand castles.

      But most importantly: leave the sand and the buckets and the spades in the sandbox.

  12. and yourself as a Reaver, how do you like your prey? ketchup, steak sauce, garlic butter perhaps?

    1. I don't exclude myself from my own criticism, as you will soon see.

  13. Careful Ripard. This first post is looking to one of a series where you sound an awful lot like me, and if you believe the propagandists, I am a joke and know nothing about the game, though I spent years in wormholes and null sec. So you don't want that.

    But imagine Eve where suicide ganking is not so nearly profitable, and doing it to hurt someone ends up costing the sociopath dearly.

    How about these as ideas:

    1. You cannot attack anyone in high sec if you are in an NPC corp, unless attacked first. Your weapons simply don't work.
    2. Once you do gank someone, you automatically get a -10 status, and you can't grind it off. You can pay a fine equal to 25% of the ship and cargo you destroyed, or you have to wait a month, before you can start altering that -10 status.
    3. Anyone with -10 status is actually hunted down by Concord, until they are podded. They cannot dock anywhere in high sec, they can't enter a POS, and if they attempt to enter a ship ejected from an Orca, that Orca is Concorded as well. In fact, if the player tries to enter high sec from a lower security zone, the high sec gates refuse to work for them. Hell, simply make ALL high sec gates not work for them.

    That should deal with the gankers in high sec. Now, all the griefers in null sec, I am not sure how you deal with them. Maybe you leave them alone. That one I will leave up to others to sort out.

    Oh, and as for scamming in the trade hubs, any char seen scamming or spamming has the account banned, and the IP address perma-banned. That won't stop the sophisticated assholes who proxy IP's, but it will certainly shake up a lot of them.

    If CCP actually treated high sec as more like it should be, the retention rate of players would go way way up.

    That leave the james315's of the high sec world to deal with. It is late here, but I will sleep on it and come up with an elegant solution to wreck the sick fun of the fucks that hassle miners in high sec.

    1. "This first post is looking to[sic] one of a series where you sound an awful lot like me"

      I don't think DP realizes how harsh an insult this is; luckily for Jester, it's not true.

    2. Dinsdale Pirannha, you really ought to look at it using the mechanics we have already...why not simply ask CCP to make awoxing contingent on duelling? link dueling with corp infighting, and make corporate infighting the same sort of suspect act that you'd get outside of corp?
      I'm sure CCP can tell the difference between logistics and awoxing.

      And what about making ingame killboards where awoxing and suicide ganking (where there is no defender aggression) traceable...that would stop alot of the n00b ganking in its tracks and show REAL harrassment.

    3. These might be some of the dumbest ideas Ive ever read, and are a complete detriment to the game itself. Run along to X3 or something if you don't like dealing with other players in an MMO that originally went under the name Everyone vs Everyone.


    4. People think "are a joke" not because of your point of view, but due to your conspiracy theories and RMT claims without ever providing any proof.

      At least that's why I stopped taking you seriously.

  14. Really Jester?

    I'm sure there is a percentage of the playerbase that has gone to that extreme, isn't there always but I take offence at your painting not only those I fly with but many I fly against with this broad and overly emotive brush.

    1. I have not yet even BEGUN to offend you.

      In the meantime, please feel free to tell me which part of this little opening is wrong.

    2. That's a challenge. I'm looking forward to any insults that don't bounce of my peculiar brand of blasé.

  15. "Needless to say, I think this is having an impact on CCP's ability to attract new players who aren't already half-Reaver."

    "CCP is the Alliance.
    The Pax is EVE Online.
    The people killed by the Pax are the players that quit the game very early.
    The people killed by the Reavers are the players driven out of the game.
    The Reavers are everyone who's left: you, not to put too fine a point on it."

    "Needless to say, I think this is having an impact on Alliance's ability to attract new players (to Pax) who aren't already half-Reaver."

    Your conclusion isn't making a whole lot of sense in face of the lore you just used as metaphor.

    1. No metaphor lasts forever. I think the image I'm trying to convey is clear enough.

  16. Of course, we don't know where Jester wants to take this series of posts that he announced a few times but we all assume that it will tackle the "caustic" nature of EVE's social fabric.

    And that is where I am disagreeing. EVE spawned the worst and best in gaming culture. For every thief, there is the "Angel Project", for every elitist group hostile to new players, there are RvB and Brave Newbies, for every large dictatorial powerbloc imposing restrictions, there are reckless and egalitarian wormhole corporations that deeply care for their loyal members. I know of no other social platform (and EVE is not a game per se) that offers this many choices.

    So, instead whining, go out and find an environment where you can fly with friends who have your back, fly as you please and interact with others according to your standards. If that isn't nullsec, just get out. Space is big.

    1. As part of this series of posts, I'm going to have a post about the good EVE players do. The Angel Project will be one of those things (as will E-UNI, PLEX for Good, Brave, RvB, Estel Arador, and a few others).

      I disagree there are an equal number of them, though.

      I do find the line "If that isn't nullsec, just get out" kind of entertaining, though.

    2. A good referent for the good vs. evil that can be done might be Andrew Carnegie, known for his philanthropy, but also for less laudable incidents like the Homestead Strike of 1892. Did Carnegie's philanthropy negate the actions taken by Carnegie Steel at the Homestead Works?

    3. I played EVE since closed beta and would have given up on the community long time ago had it not been because of the "good deeds" EVE players do both ingame and outgame.

      Players saying "reavers" are not a threat to the longevity of the EVE "sandbox" need to start playing League of Legends. Good game, but the "community" have been eaten by griefers and trolls. Bad attitudes are contagious. Just look what the LoL community did to Athene which are one of the "good guys" that did alot of fundraising to save children in Afrifa. Do EVE players really want a hostile community like this with reckless greed and competition? Do not take "good deeds" for granted.

      Go watch this; Athene: What Is Going On With The LoL Community?

      LoL is a classic example what will happen when you let a community be hijacked by "reavers".
      Fortunately, I think CCP are starting to realize that they need to even the playing field or to many new players will be eaten alive by "Reavers" unless new players are griefers themself and can thrive in that enviroment.

    4. Why don't you ask Sindel about how hard it is to keep being positive and altruistic in the EVE Universe?

    5. I watched that video. sounded like some guy spending waaaaay too much time reading forums. I think i stopped reading the forums years ago (thank goodness for the new weekly highlights from the event GMs)

      Yes, there are trolls in local, and i'm sure if you hung around amarr/jita/dodixie/rens you'd go a bit batty too. Whatever, i tried to keep my stay short and minimized at trade hubs.

      *scratches head* I have no idea how that video told me that LoL is ruined. could you find a better one with a bit more specifics than forum trolls?

    6. Check out Brave a little closer. They are currently the largest corporation, and seem to be the favorite place to come for PvP. Their attitude and policies is "fun per hour" and "Stay Classy" (i.e. no hate). Although there are members who gank or who pirate, the leadership pushes hard for keeping it fun and that it is not necessary to be negative towards your opponents. It is a refreshing attitude to find that I've only seen in a few other groups. Considering it is now the largest corporation in EvE, it looks like others may agree.

  17. A concerned MinmatarMarch 13, 2014 at 4:25 AM

    One of the selling points of Eve for me when I started was the feeling of being hunted and in danger. Since subsriber numbers are rising, I suspect there are more like me out there.

  18. I liked the analogy, but this can be changed to two open points:

    1) there is no serious penalty for death (robbery, or whatever normally serious crime) of other people.
    2) The other guy is not being viewed as a person at all, he is just a random idiot from the other side of the world who could die in a second a you just don´t give a damn.

    Being humans, these two crucial points are what changes society into anarchy. There is no enforceability of these two points in EVE, and practically, probably never will be. Thus, what we have in front of us is actually an experiment how it all would go down if it all went wrong: in the ten years, from solo renegates doing anything they want we are at megablocs which support at least some kind of "safe" feeling and of course a feeling of belonging to something. We are reliving the ancient human history and forming of nations here :)) EVE is just a framework; it creates the environment and basic inner workings of the environment. Anything else is just human genes acting in a situation where there is no punishment for kill and zero compassion for the victim. And I don´t think you can change those without irreversibly changing the framework.

    In this sense, careful what you wish for: a strong change in this regard will probably kill the game. The game is unique for these properties, may it be good or bad, and I say it as a guy who never scammed nobody or punished beyond what they deserved. This is who we are inside and its high time we realize that.

  19. PvP, fine. Scamming, fine. But these guys are on a race to the bottom, completely desensitized to the hurt they cause. Pixels, yes, but real emotional response whether justified or not.

    1. If you sit down for a chess game with a grown man, and he throws the board and cries when he is losing do you offer to let him win or do you suggest that perhaps chess isn't for him? If he buys a diamond chess board and gold plated pieces because he thinks they'll help him win, does that change the equation?

      If you're playing a video game that causes you 'hurt' and you're not a child then you need to look at yourself, not the game, to see what needs to change.

    2. Chess is not a sandbox. It has extremely rigid rules about how many can play and what they can play, when.

      If you must use chess as an analogy for EVE, imagine sitting down to chess with The Mittani. He makes a move... and then a corporate makes a move with his pieces... and then there's a line of everyone in Goonswarm to make their moves before you get your turn. Mad? Unfair? Sorry, you should have made friends before taking on Goonswarm.

      For extra credit, imagine that you hadn't played chess before, and The Mittani sold you a whole bunch of lines about what you could and couldn't do that all worked in his favor, then laughed at you for believing him as he took your king easily.

    3. That's just silly. Your one side of the chess board getting dozens of moves only works as an analogy if the goons were literally breaking EVE's rules* - creating ships/pilots/mods/something outside of the rules themselves.

      As for second part, just what else would you expect to happen? You don't sign up for a chess tournament and without bothering to learn at least the basic game mechanics. I don't see why EVE should be different.

      *Which, at least in this case, they did not.

  20. The real question is, are the reapers able to reproduce? is no one able to fight against them to keep their population "in check"?

    If the answers are yes and no respectively, then we are totally doomed.

    Into EvE terms, that means eventually, when reavers have no other "food" left to eat, they will fight each other and eat themselves....which is counter productive for a game.

    1. You need to watch the series again, the Reaver mindset is infectious to the victims that survive the horrors. TLDR; Bullies beget bullies.

  21. I think what you fundamentally fail to acknowledge is that there is no way to play EVE without "inflict[ing] pain, suffering, and death". Eve is zero-sum. The only difference between a pirate like myself and a 'friendly' miner or missioner is that I will kill you quickly while they will do it through a thousand cuts. Every mineral they mine makes the ships in my hangar worth less. Every mission they run makes the Isk in my wallet worth less. Every PLEX they buy means mine are more expensive.

    Sure, it's not as flashy - but who's really done more damage if I've blown up one of your ships while you've cut the value of ten of mine in half?

    Sure, some people rage quit over losing a few ships or getting scammed - and they often do so loudly. But go talk to a hundred new players who didn't stick around and ask why - you'll get the same answers 99% of the time:

    1) Eve's learning curve.
    2) The need to wait months or years (or the perception that it is necessary) to be able to play the 'real' game and/or compete with other players.
    3) Just about anything that doesn't involve shooting at other players is fucking boring.

    Eve does not have a Reaver problem. In fact, the only thing that makes Eve fun at all is that constant competition; most of the game itself is just plain boring. If you want to make Eve better focus on knocking down barriers to entry and making the game fun - don't gut what makes Eve special.

    1. That's an interesting way of looking at the game. And after thinking about it, I don't agree. Is a PvPer really cursing a miner for making his ships worth a few less ISK? I very much doubt this. Is a wormhole guy causing anyone harm when he's running a site? Again, I very much doubt it.

      In both cases, the way is being paved for future content for PvPers, but these types of game-play styles are not in and of themselves harmful to anyone.

    2. "Is a PvPer really cursing a miner for making his ships worth a few less ISK?"

      Absolutely. But it's like the old frog in boiling water adage; we don't notice it if it happens gradually.

      As an example: I recently returned to Eve after a long absence. Have you looked at the price of ships? They're at least double what they were when I left around a year ago. Which means the isk in my wallet is now worth half as much. PLEX are close to triple. It's the single greatest loss I've taken in my Eve career; and I've lost a couple hundred ships at this point.

      It wasn't pirates or griefers who did that either - it was mission and incursion runners. And unlike the dude who loads half his assets into a untanked hauler and flies through Rancer, there really was very little I could have done about it.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm not upset. And a lot of that is a bit of a simplification. But that's the way EVE works.

      "In both cases, the way is being paved for future content for PvPers, but these types of game-play styles are not in and of themselves harmful to anyone."

      This I actually completely agree with. But you need to look at the full picture, not just individuals: PvPers are paving the future content for PvEers as well. They drive almost the entirety of the market demand.

    3. Jester, a pvper is cursing a miner every time they use the word "carebear" in pejorative tones.
      As for wormholing argument i could use the same for missioners in their own little self created deadspace, or miners munching on a rock in a belt where noone is there...those tech3 items hitting the market are influenced by that wormholer just like LP items and the mineral markets respectively.

      "In both cases, the way is being paved for future content for PvPers, but these types of game-play styles are not in and of themselves harmful to anyone."
      I disagree. To assume that some low sec pirate is harmful to a high sec carebear, ipso facto, i find hilarious. It would be the opposite if you introduced a carebear to low sec - AND EQUALLY harmful if you introduced the carebear to a system already stripped by another carebear (or merchant princes beating you to the 0.01 isk game) or any number of things Raelyf pointed out.

    4. MinorFreak, being abrasive is just not the same. Putting Jester's question "Is a PvPer really cursing...?" in stronger words (as I understand them) is asking: how many times did a PvPer (consider to) quit EVE because he saw a miner doing his thing? Now think compare to how often a miner did because a ganker did his thing.

      I see how Raelyf curses inflation, but contradicts himself when he blames miners for devaluing the ships (decreasing prices) and rising inflation (rising prices) at the same time.

    5. "As an example: I recently returned to Eve after a long absence. Have you looked at the price of ships? They're at least double what they were when I left around a year ago. Which means the isk in my wallet is now worth half as much. PLEX are close to triple. It's the single greatest loss I've taken in my Eve career; and I've lost a couple hundred ships at this point. "

      Ship prices: completely untrue. A proteus hull was 330M in 2010, it's half that amount right now. PLEX prices did double, but that's an effect of RL economy (less people selling PLEX, demand versus offer cause).
      Cap and supercap prices did increase, but that's actually an effect of too much PvP.

    6. I'm with Semidoctul on the math of inflation. Back when tritanium was 2.0isk the tech2 versions of cap rechargers didn't exist (? or where so expensive they were out of reach of a n00b) and eutectic was juuuust a very pricey luxury item.
      There wasn't any PLEX just GTC and those you had to make a really wierd transaction that almost made it (i'm guessing) not unlike RMT deals.

      Now, i must say that i remember not so long ago that Geddons were 50m isk. dunno what exactly caused that slump in prices but i sure snapped a few up. guess i'm more ahead than Raelyf.

    7. "I see how Raelyf curses inflation, but contradicts himself when he blames miners for devaluing the ships (decreasing prices) and rising inflation (rising prices) at the same time."

      My intent was to claim miners were responsible for devaluing ships and that mission runners were responsible for rising inflation.

      "Ship prices: completely untrue. A proteus hull was 330M in 2010 [...]"
      That is a silly argument. frigates used to be 40k-200k. cruisers 4-6m. Battlecruisers 15-30mil. Battleships 45-90mil. t2 cruisers 120mil. And they stayed relatively stable for years.

      Yes, t3 prices have dropped. I'm sure some others have as well. But the vast majority of ships have risen drastically.

    8. *shrug* as long as skill book prices stay the same, and early tech2 items are cheap compared to days gone by, i'm happy with the state of play for a n00b who mines veldspar (tritanium being double what it was)

      everything else doesn't matter to me.

  22. Actually, this is kind of the reason I quit Eve.

    It's been about half a month since my sub expired. I could have PLEXed it, but I actually deliberately avoided being part of the monument because I didn't >want< my name on it. I didn't want even my fake name to be associated with this community.

    I've never been podded or ganked, and there is something about the threat of it that is a bit of a rush - but ultimately, what am I taking on that risk for? In what community am I jockeying for some baseline position?

    EVE is a game where 'tears' are the among the most prized commodities; where people who just want to take on quiet background activities and not ruin other people's days are mocked and spat on as "Carebears;" and people ruin their work not because it earns them any kind of gain or progress, but because it's fun. People look at "Minerbumping.com" and instead of going "What assholes," they give those people money. People are celebrated for doing terrible things, which in EVE can have potentially game-devastating consequences.

    While there are tear-drinkers and permitted asshattery in other games, in EVE it feels like the very heart and soul of the vocal portion of the community. It often feels like the >point.< And EVE has to be one of the only recreational activities where abuse of trust and a $1600 theft is not only possible and tolerated but celebrated.

    Watching the way the EVE community behaves often feels like a miserable statement on what humanity is when the reins are gone, and ultimately something I don't want any direct part of. It's one of the things that makes EVE much more interesting to read about than to play.

    I've always liked your blog, Jester, because I always sensed humanity in you; that you weren't like >them.< I still read it; I may do for a while yet. And I'm certainly utterly fascinated by what you might have to say about this.

    1. Good for you to take a stand and unsubscribe a game that doesn't bring you enjoyment. But instead of unsubscribing you could have looked for fellow pilots who share your code. As recruiter for a WH corp, I have routinely rejected pilots whose attitude doesn't work with ours. We do not tolerate the behavior that Jester outlines that caused you to quit.

      Just repeating what I said above. EVE is all about making choices.

    2. To play The Game, you have to be able to distance yourself from it.
      I find (cold) comfort in knowing that man has dominated man to his own injury for millennia. If CFC are Persians then PL are the Assirians. Do you know what the Assyrians did to their captured enemies? They got the point in a game of high stakes from arse to throat and took a long long time to quit the world.
      I'm saddened that you felt you could not represent your contribution to the EVE universe on the monument. I really am, because you made it unique.

    3. Russia annexing Crimea, NK launching anti-seawater missiles, missing Malaysian plane, NSA spying, etc. The world seems like a shitty place too when all you do is read the popular news.

  23. Haven't had my morning coffee yet, so I'll keep it short.

    I'm assuming that guy losing thousands of $ worth of stuff last week is what brought upon this article. Here, you compare us, the "survivors" [seriously, no italics in the comments??], to the Reavers from the Firefly universe, whose main pastime is inflicting pain to other living beings and then eating them. While that may be true to some extent, the examples of the opposite behavior can be found all over the place as well. It's just that you won't find any headlines citing "Dreaded low sec pirate kills a noob in a venture..and then proceeds to explain to him why his fit was bad and why he died". It's simple - If it Bleeds, it Leads. Just because the headlines about EVE are filed with the tales of scams, ganks and other "morally [un]acceptable" things doesn't mean that that's what EVE is all about.

    Sure, I started playing EVE because of the flying spaceships, but that's not why I stayed. Gameplay in EVE..sucks, to put it mildly. There are a gazillion other games that could fill my need for pure gameplay more than EVE could. The reason I stayed was the community. A community where there are little limits to interaction between players and where anything goes, for as long as it's constrained to the world of EVE [e.g no RL treats].

    Yes, that means that the usual "consumers" of theme park MMOs, who'd just like to tune out and run around bashing rats and mining, with no concern for their surroundings (non-tanked barges, "purple" raven fitting), will be put down by more..connected players. Unlike most other MMOs, EVE is a living world, and can be compared to the RL. Therefore, let's examine the last weeks "epic" scam from that perspective:

    The person in question assumed that just because he was "rich" he would be invincible and would be able to go wherever he wanted with his "purple gear", with no connection to reality or concern for the environment around them. In RL terms, that would be the same as driving your brand new Ferrari to poor neighborhood, and proceeding to do some grocery shopping in the same area. Would he be safe to do so? No, he'd be stabbed to death and his precious Ferrari stolen.

    After that the remainder of his EVE riches was "liberated" by some Goons, when he took their promising words at face value. Again, a RL example:
    -Hello fine Sir, welcome to Nigeria! I hope you had a pleasant flight here.
    -Yes, thank you. After I was stabbed last month, and had my Ferrari stolen, I was looking for new country to live. The America isn't safe any more, I was stabbed in broad daylight, can you imagine that! And, while I was lying in my hospital bed, I received an e-mail from this Prince of yours, and he told me how great this country of yours is - that I could drive around in my Ferrari wherever I wanted, and no one would try to kill me. Therefore, I flew my new Ferrari here, and converted all my wealth to cash and brought it with me. I'm grateful to your Prince for warning me of those banks and their high taxes.
    -Oh, what I coincidence! I am the Princes mother's cousin's second nephew! I can help you get around the import fees for all that cash and get that Ferrari through the customs! Just sign here and I'll take care of everything for you.
    -What a great country this is! Thank you very much! I'm looking forward to driving my Ferrari around here!

    EVE community rewards proper critical thinking and..punishes stupidity. Good, evil and other morals are, just like in RL, a matter of personal preference. Jester, I hope you will re-examine this topic carefully before proceeding, because, tempering with the rules of Sandbox could ruin EVE for all of us.

    That much from me, now to get some coffee..


    1. Ah, the wonderful "for his own good" defense.

      "EVE is a living world, and can be compared to the RL."

      It can be compared, but ultimately EVE isn't RL - as lots of people are fond of saying: it's just a game.

      That means that for last week's scam, the Goons could have told the victim that he just got double-scammed, and given him his stuff back with a stern warning - the scammer equivalent of the low-sec pirate who gives advice and ISK to the hapless newbie he just blew up.

    2. The person in question had been playing EVE for less than 2 months when he made the decision to invest thousands into this game. Now, let me ask you: would you invest a large amount of money into a game, any game, without first getting to know said game and its community?

      I am not defending goons or the gankers here - they saw an opportunity to make some easy cash and took it (I will not debate the morals). But constraining the rules of the game to protect people like this is not the solution.

      In my opinion, the solution lies in addressing the "new player experience". While, personally, I enjoy the steep learning curve, which I see as a challenge to overcome, CCP needs to communicate to the new players the EVE's true nature more clearly. Unlike many other MMOs, EVE does not have goals, ranks, end-game and similar in-game achievements. In many other MMOs, you can just pay your way to success. In EVE, you can't, which was proven many times over the last decade.

      Yes, that would mean that CCP would have to sacrifice some short-term profit from the whales (yes, it’s a real term), but I believe that it would generate more income in the long-term, from the players who would stick around after fully appreciating the true nature of EVE and applying some critical thinking to the way they play.


    3. Maybe we should talk 'morals', aka 'decent behavior'.

      If you don't want to act like a decent player and insist on taking jokes/scams too far - fine. Just don't blame the permissiveness of the sandbox, or the new player experience for your behavior.

      Yes, the guy was stupid and probably deserved the first loss, but it could have stopped there.

    4. "That means that for last week's scam, the Goons could have told the victim that he just got double-scammed, and given him his stuff back with a stern warning"

      "Yes, the guy was stupid and probably deserved the first loss, but it could have stopped there."

      This may sound cold to you, but one thing I absolutely cannot tolerate is the peoples' refusal to think, ignorance of the consequences of their decisions and unwillingness to learn from their mistakes. Their kind will get no sympathy from me. RL is full of them, and EVE is no different. And while in RL, most analogues of ganking and scamming are sanctioned by law, in EVE, they are not [for as long as they don't cross into RL matters].

      On the topic of morals, I'm conflicted myself. I've been scammed a couple of times in my early career, so I know the feeling of failing at something due to lack of understanding of a certain game mechanic. But I also know that one simple google search on the topic presented me with more than enough information on how to recognize all kinds of scams and avoid them.

      The morals, or tolerated behavior, of a certain society is decided by the society itself. And it is only the EVE community itself that can make any lasting changes on this topic. Therefore, I welcome this debate, as it will hopefully allow us to tackle this issue and allow EVE to grow, in one way or another.

      What I am saying, however, is that we should think carefully on who exactly it is to blame for here. In my opinion, the main problem is the ignorance of some people, whether it's their ignorance of the game mechanics, the environment or pure lack of common sense. And that is the problem best confronted with education - better communication of EVEs risk and reward concepts to newbies, and those who are in denial that they are.


    5. Oh, I do love a "real world" metaphor.

      Let's extend yours, shall we? The law does not recognize that the Ferrari driver "deserved" anything. His property was stolen and his person assaulted, both serious crimes. Your Ferrari driver or his family call the police. The police intrinsically trust him and his family, because they are productive members of society. Notwithstanding the paper description of the legal system, the residents of the poor neighborhood are presumed guilty and generally considered to be expendable. Suspects, who might or might not have actually committed the crimes, are rounded up, beaten, interrogated, given a public defender who either holds them in contempt or is on the take, and hauled before a prosecutor who sees an easy way to pad his record, and a hanging judge. Poor people serve long sentences in prison, perhaps on death row.

      Does that sound like a system that EVE should have because it reflects real-world consequences? Or can you see that "real-world consequences" are a logical no-op, because the real world is sufficiently large and complex that you can find a just-so story to fit any argument?

      EVE is a game. The relevant discussion is about what makes it fun, and sustainable, as a game.

      James P. Carse's "Finite and Infinite Games" would be an excellent reference text, with EVE (and any MMO except possibly LotRO) being described as an infinite game.

    6. yup, the mechanics of this game suck...but, seriously, why do I play this game? $15 is pretty cheap for pretending i work in outer space.

  24. You walk into a bar, you instantly have a dozen choices to make: stay or leave, walk quickly to the bar get a drink (pretend you want to be here) get one drink then look at your watch and say "oh my gotta run" and never return. Go sit with the biker thugs (nice guys do anything for you if you are with them or a innocent bystander, provi) go sit with the drug dealers who offer a high you can't get else where but at a cost you might regret later (pl) the hookers/whores (pirates) the theives and opportunist (Nulli) then you could sit with the self rightous bible thumpers (goon) or you can carve out a space with like minded folks who are there for fun and drinking with little else going on (everyone else). Your choice always been always will be.

  25. GL with your crusade, Ripard. But I think you're tilting at windmills, not slaying a dragon.

    Agree EVE has a nasty culture. But disagree that its any different or worse than its ever been. Its always been bad, and the tools for ganking and scamming if anything are slightly worse today than before. As an example, it wasn't long ago that you could suicide gank someone and get paid full insurance for it.

    I'm supportive of a safer high sec, tbh, as long as its also a materially less profitable high sec. Sure, let people be safe somewhere who want to play that way. But you can't fix stupid, and the more of the 'I just want to be safe' people you retain, the more stupid there will be. Not saying all are stupid, just that whatever the % of stupid is, call it 1%, it'll grow linearly. So your 'I got scammed and trolled and I'm mad' baby crowd will only grow the safer you make it.

    That doesn't mean it shouldn't be safer in high sec. Just that the goal of safety should NOT be catering to stupid. It should be catering to ignorant and new.

    But the replys in this thread are gold, that's for sure. Love it.

    1. that would be risk aversion to want "safer" (aka less risk) to be less profitable (aka less reward)
      But how can less reward equate to catering to ignorant and new? I'm not sure what connotation you're giving to "less reward" here.

      I think a more proper way to look at it is that both carebears AND griefers (aka those immergent play creators of awesomesauce) fall afoul of risk-aversion.
      In that respect i counter your comment about slaying dragons...more like paper tigers or strawmen.

      *shrug* griefing in nullsec (awoxing) is probably just as rampant as high sec griefing; scams via contracts are probably just as prevalent (that overpriced item a rich nullsec player will pay for that would make that billion isk n00b blush)

      It's a nasty culture, yes, since m0o and the fall of Seraph Ubiqua. It's improving at a glacial pace that makes CCP look more naive and bumbling and prone to being asskissed by nullseccers than actually being circumspect and deliberate.

      But, we cannot blame the victims but must place the fault in the hands of CCP who's lies about their grand vision(s) are more likely the ravings of delusional freaks.

  26. I don't enormously think you're wrong here. I've definitely thought in the past that what the EVE Online world reminds me of most is some of the descriptions I've heard of neighborhood gangs.

    The problem is, I'm not sure what's left if you get rid of what you're complaining about. Possibly, this is because I don't know where you draw the line. Most of what I do for entertainment in this game (as opposed to community service or a way to make ends meet) involves going over to the territory of a rival gang (corp or alliance) and looking for trouble. Is that Reaver behavior? Is it Reaver behavior to try to catch their pods too? Is it only Reaver behavior if I smack in local instead of just "gf"?

    I finally found a community I like, but... I'm not sure there's anything that would keep me logging in if that stuff went away. (Also, it's amazing how so many people in the Star Citizen forums wants to be a pirate and so few of them want to do things that would be derided as "carebearing" in EVE.)

  27. The Reavers don't view you as food. They view you as sport, or entertainment.

  28. I also just started maybe a mounth ago and this discussion is very interesting.
    IMO this "reavers" are, as said, a part of EVEs soul. I wouldn't call it reavers so, just players who get their fun from destroying other player's ship. And sometimes from those players wining and flaming to.

    For me it comes out to a "flair" and "world" of EVE which is one of the reasons I play this game!

    EVE isn't a safe place. And def no place for small kids who want to have some fast fun. Its for grown up people who can handle failure, long term goils and small successes. You wont get fast and easy fun in EVE as simple as in all those other free-online-mobile-colorful games out there. Kiddies can play those, EVE in it's soul isn't for them. Yet. Let them grow up and come back later.

    I really would miss something playing EVE while hanging in an asteroid belt with my retriever when I wouldn't know and believe and FEEL that the next ganker could be just around the corner.

    Its part of EVEs soul and heart and gameplay.
    But also EVEs soul is that its easy to find just around every corner these nice and friendly people, chatting and helping each other bc they want to! They enjoy playing this game with friends and new, growing friends. Families.
    I think those families are as part of the game as the gankers are. They are families to in the end.
    And from my feeling most people even in EVE don't play the ganking stile. Maybe some days and from time to time as it is part of EVE. But its not their essence of EVE gameplay. The essence is much friendlier and more helpful then that.

    Is the ganking intensity grown to much? I cant say, I know only this one as it is and for me its OK. And I somehow have the feeling that if it would be to much EVE would find a way to compensate and overcome it.

  29. Care to comment about this jester? http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/03/kills-of-week-freighter-edition.html. They have started to gank empty freighters in high sec. "Professional freighter gankers carefully select their targets for maximum profit. They let many freighters go by before choosing one stuffed with expensive items. The New Order, on the other hand, kills freighters who violate the Code. It doesn't matter what they have in their cargo holds--what matters is what's in their hearts. The New Order will not hesitate to gank even an empty freighter if the pilot shows indifference to the Code." The war against the carebear menace has been expanded.

    1. i dunno man, good luck to you and yours. I just look at it in the sense of a mature adult reading section 4 of the terms of service and seeing a clear and in your face violation.
      "You may not use 'role-playing' as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy."

  30. Thanks to you Jester, there are now only 10 EVE players who haven't seen Firefly/Serenity. It was a weekend well spent.


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