Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Tuesday, March 25, 2014

COTW: Outlier

There are lots of comments already about my post earlier today about Erotica 1 and his behavior. I want to address a couple of them real quick so the discussion doesn't go off on pointless tangents.

Very occasionally, I get accused of wanting to ban the grey areas of EVE Online. People who level such accusations at me are charming, dumb, and flat wrong. I accept, embrace, and defend the gray areas of EVE, from scamming to non-consensual PvP to unequal warfare to corp names that some might find questionable. People who actually read the blog have read me defending these things. If I didn't accept and embrace these things, I would not play this game.

But there are limits. There are points where grey becomes black.

The most common tangent of my post today is people claiming that this behavior is an "outlier" or a "fringe case." I could not agree with you more. It's definitely an outlier! But the question here is where oh where does the line get drawn between grey behavior and black behavior? I again invite you to let a neutral observer living outside the bubble decide. Tell your mother or your sister about Erotica 1 or about the recent "go back to WoW" scam. Play the story for laughs. See how quickly the amusement on her face becomes revulsion.

This was an outlier, but it's an outlier that must be opposed and punished. This, I'll remind you, is coming from the very same guy that said The Mittani should not be kicked off the CSM for the wizard hat incident. EVE is not a free country nor a democracy. Hard limits are needed on behavior and those limits should be enforced. I don't know where the exact line is but any reasonable neutral observer would rapidly conclude that this behavior was well beyond that line.

Unacceptable outliers that are not opposed have a funny way of moving toward the fat end of the bell curve and not being outliers any more. Anything that "works" in EVE immediately has imitators and copy-cats and anyone who denies it is deluding themselves.

The second tangent is coming from people claiming that I'm railing against the entire EVE community for what Erotica 1 does. This is also not true. I was very specific about this in my post today. The people I'm railing against are people who think what Erotica 1 does is acceptable or "funny." Make no mistake: there is absolutely nothing funny or acceptable about taking a person's every in-game asset and then torturing him for hours -- while recording it! -- and his vain hope of getting them back... and then broadcasting the results of that torture across the community.

If you think there is, I am afraid for you and yes, I'm going to call that out.

Clear? Lovely. Carry on.

58 comments:

  1. If EVE were a free country this still wouldn't be allowed. Try robbing someone and using the excuse that their door wasn't locked. Or beating someone and saying they deserved it because they couldn't defend themselves.

    Free countries don't tolerate abuse. You don't get to abuse people in free countries. If you do that, you go to jail. EVE is a game, and part of playing that game is acknowledging that non-consensual PvP happens. But psychological abuse should never come as part of the game.

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  2. If whatever that scammers name was scammed the ppl into buying plex just to steal the assets ban. come on u gonna act like u really dont know where the line is....
    the scammers and greifers do


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  3. Most reasonable people who read your blog see your point. The scumbags will never see it.

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    1. I'm sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when you dismiss everyone who doesn't agree with you as "scumbags". Especially when you do so anonymously.

      Delete
    2. It's hard to take any one who argues in such extremes as anyone not agreeing with you is x or y or z to use as an excuse for such behavior. It works both ways.

      The 'content creation' is finally coming to light for what it really is; a cancer.

      Delete
    3. I guess next time I better name myself "Steph" and remove all doubts as to my identity!

      Delete
    4. @Anslo

      Says the one who formed the Proveldtariat in response to the New Order, which is 'content creation' as you put it, both ways.

      Plus I don't think you get what content creation means when applied to the entirety of EVE, what about the fall of BoB and the Great Northern War, or the Ice Interdictions or Burn Jita? Are these events that qualify as 'cancer' to you?

      And what would you do with this 'cancer' as you put it, cut it out entirely, then I think you'll find that EVE would lose its unique charm

      Delete
    5. Yeah. That movement is a way to say 'fuck your bullshit, it's not content it's griefing for its own sake.' The fall of BoB, the Northern War etc, is content. Harassing carebears to get a rise from them is just being a cunt.

      Eve would not lose its charm if this cancer was removed. Eve will still be a hive of scum and villainy, but a hive of scum and villainy that knows just what happens when you push things too far. This culture of tear collection needs stomped on. Been at this fucking game for almost 7 years now and I'll say right now that this fuckery of tear collection was nowhere near as big as it is now.

      It needs stopped for the sake of Eve. I don't care if people think that's logical or not. I don't care if people think I shouldn't have morale's in a game. I'm done arguing or justifying my stance with people like James or Ero. My stance is my stance and I'll tell everyone here what I've said before;

      If you don't like this bleeding heart pubbies stand on this, come shut me up.

      Delete
    6. Most reasonable people who read your blog see your point. The scumbags will never see it.
      (not the above anon, but saying it and saying it identifiably)
      -Bantara

      Delete
  4. Yeah, Jester, this game isn't mainstream enough to really warrant the concern you have. If it was more popular or more people played it there would have to be worry. Once a high school forms a after school group with a teacher moderating it where everyone plays EVE, then yeah what you are saying would most likely happen. Right now past erotica1. Most people don't invest enough into the game before their first scam or losses. So no one takes it too seriously.

    IF the game was more popular or mainstream, most likely more payers might invest at higher levels then get scammed for the first time or so. Then those hard problems might arise.

    Actually The Mittani is an example of someone who invests enough if he got scammed a real world problem might arise. Since he retired and invests a lot of time for EVE as well as a website. But he shows no signs of blowing up or creating harm and such in the real world. But the erotica1 stuff is pretty bad enough though. Kind of gives enough for the imagination.

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  5. Ban all the outliers...if they are "so few of them" Every business has a clause of "we retain the right to refuse service".

    If this causes a backlash in the community, then there is obviously a bigger problem in that people actually condone the behavior and such behavior is not an "outlier" after all.

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  6. Remember there are real life large player gatherings every year. It only takes one person to go "crazy" from this sort of behavior to cause a reaction from CCP.

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  7. Also I dont think what he does is funny. I think its necessary. Without bad ppl how good can your good ppl be. He cjoses to spend his time trying to inflict himself on others good for him. Maybe next time some huckster walks up to them irl talking about a great deal on swamp land they remember how easy they were scammed in eve and start asking questions

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    1. You're trying to justify something awful by saying only then can there be good. This is a False Dilemma. Saying that there have to be murderers so we can appreciate saints is illogical.

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    2. So CCP should ban erotica1, that way CCP is the villain, and we all have to learn how to be good players from their villainy.

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    3. His greed on deciding that the scammer was trust worthy caused him to lose his shit, not the scammers awesome scam or w/e its simple human nature. If its too good to be true......i was thought that at a young age and yeah I got scammed in lineage 2 for a bunch of mats once but I haven't been scammed since. Because in stead of crying to the game devs I learned my lession and went back out to grind what I lost. Consequence for my actions
      ..without that this game gets pretty boring or any sandbox for that matter. So I guess if u need a fluffy rose colored world eve isn't for u and tbu if it was it would have failed years ago. The game is still growing 10years later. Don't fix what ain't broke

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  8. I told my parents about the 'go back to wow' scam and my dad just shook his head at the inability of that player to learn. We feel some pity for the victim but it is also very difficult to have compassion for the greedy morons that fall victim to this. We just cannot understand how anyone can fall for this scam, thus we cannot relate to the victim and have trouble feeling empathy.

    These are the EVE darwin awards. All you can do is hope the victim applies the lesson learned to RL.
    The scam was an EVE event with nothing noteworthy about it.

    @Orion
    Eve is a free country. Just like the wild west or medeival iceland was a free country. The only laws are those you can enforce yourself. Until someone upholds the law there is no reason to obey. As long as the seas were free pirates could do as they please.
    The difference between EVE and RL is that you can't walk away from RL abuse as easily as you can in a game.

    The best solution I can offer is to make an announcement that this sort of behavious is a bannable offense and start banning people for it on a case by case basis. After a few bans people will figure out approximately where the line is drawn.

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    1. EVE is not a free country. If you think it is, I invite you to promote Naziism in Local.

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    2. The Wild West wasn't free. When you went into a lot of towns, they would confiscate your guns. You had to pay your debts or be fired. Murders were convicted. Just because justice was slow doesn't mean that there weren't laws and crime wasn't prosecuted.

      Vikings had laws too and social rules. Outsiders weren't part of those rules just like the United States and France don't impose their laws on each other. But Scandinavia had laws and they were enforced.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Scandinavian_law

      Just because you can walk away from a fight doesn't mean that the person who punched you isn't guilty of assault and battery.

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    3. If Eve was a free country, CCP would not be expected to do anything, including new features to toy around with.

      Bad behaviours keeps new players away.
      No new players, no new subs money.

      Soon enough this game will stagnate, scammers will run out of victims and will walk away.

      Then your "free country" will go down the drain.

      Whether or not CCP recognizes it, they have a stake in this.

      Delete
    4. If u scam someone Into buying plex for u to steal the plex or assets u get banned. That's where the line is, and its a pretty good place for it since it becomes real world fraud at that point and actually illegal not just morally wrong, and like it or not u can be amoral in eve its part of the draw of the game. Im all for scammer warning in the new player experience but wasting gm time on banning and policing scammers is not the way to go.

      Delete
    5. You do know it isn't the actual scam that people are concerned about, right?

      Just to be completely clear: it is what followed after that most reasonable players are concerned about.

      Delete
  9. Why not simply draw the line at requiring in game benefits? Obviously the scam gained all the in game items. The scam is complete. The rest of the event sounds like a sadistic torture for no in game benefit. Erotica 1 was using psychological tricks and the false promise of in game items for the purpose of humiliation not for in game benefits.

    Using this line, scams remain as vicious as ever. You can trick someone into giving everything to you in game, and CCP doesn't lift a finger. You can destroy their ships whenever you have a chance, and CCP doesn't lift a finger. You can disband a corporation and take everything for yourself, and CCP doesn't lift a finger. Once you have all of their stuff you are done.

    EVE is a game. Football is a game. They both have meta games designed to gain on field advantages. When the aim is no longer to gain on field advantages then you have crossed the line. Be a sportsman and learn to recognize the line.

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  10. I really hope Star Citizen dev's read Eve blogs and forums, and learn what behaviour NOT to allow in their game, before their game even goes live.

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    1. Since its not an mmo u dont have alot to worry about. Im sure player interactions will be related to not mattering in the theme park like environment. Or maybe they will make it a good 200 per server game like rust with just anarchy. Im guessing wc style space theme park tho. I know how everyone is all about how great sc will be but meh I played freelancer 10years ago on multiplayer servers......eve is better

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  11. I agree with you 100% Ripard. Lines need to be drawn. That said the lines can be VERY blurry. I have heard of many different Pirate groups pointing ships and pods and then offering to let the pilot go if they sing a song on coms, Im pretty sure you can find some examples of this on Youtube if you search long enough.

    I have not listened to the recording, after reading the post I doubt I could withstand listening to a couple hours worth of the torture you describe, but I can imagine what went on.

    This man did NOT deserve what was done to him, was he stupid? Maybe. Naive? Definitely Greedy? Possibly. Just because somebody is Stupid, Naive or Greedy does not give someone free reign to inflict Psychological torture on a person.

    And for those of you who argue that EVE is a 'free country' it is not, not even close. People get banned all the time from local or from game(including myself a couple times) for posting inappropriate content, usually pics, in a chat channel. A CSM runner who's name I forget was kicked out of the race for his blatantly racist views which he perpetuated in Interviews. Mittens was kicked off the CSM for being a drunk Idiot and making fun of a possibly(later found out to be completely false) suicidal player.

    The only reason people think it is OK for this stuff to be allowed is because EVE is supposed to be a 'dark' universe with Consequences. But there is a difference between allowing people to scam and blow people up, and allowing people to ABUSE another player.

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  12. Outlier or not, Erotica 1 ought to be banned, and publicly. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn either, and I'd probably end up drawing it somewhere between this and the Italian CNR guy. That one left me shocked by the attitude of the victim. You can make an argument about victim-blaming here, and I might be open to being convinced to go the other way, but the whole thing still seems gray to me. For one thing, while I realize he made CCP a lot of money, I'm not sure I actually want to be playing the same game as him.

    This one, however, leaves me shocked by the attitude of the aggressor, and, at that point, the hammer needs to come down without question. In this case, I don't want to be playing the same game as someone who isn't going to leave unless he's banned.

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  13. "Outliers" like Erotica 1 are a poison to the EVE community, and left unchecked will destroy teh viability of the game and CCP as a company. Those who cannot (or refuse) to see this have already been at least partially infected. Those actively defending it are full-on sources of the poison.

    Were I CCP, this is the policy I would adopt:

    1. Anyone found to be instigating this sort of activity, whether carried out in-game or moved to out-of-game platforms: immediate and permanent ban
    2. Anyone found to be participating in this sort of activity: immediate and permanent ban
    3. Anyone found to be publicly defending this sort of activity, or advocating it in any way, whether on the EVE forums, in-game, or in any other venue: immediate ban (maybe temporary at first, but repeat occurences could earn a permanent ban; extreme cases would be an outright permanent ban)
    4. None of the above bans will be allowed any sort of appeals (provided of course that there is concrete evidence that the said activity actually took place and the individuals were actually the ones involved; audio recordings, chat logs, forum posts, etc. are all pretty solid evidence)

    The bottom line is that these are not people you want to have polluting your game community. At best, they will just drive away customers. At worst, they will generate endless PR disasters and legal nightmares. No company can afford to let this sort of thing fester in their game, let alone allow it to flourish and grow.

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  14. I dont get it lol most responsible players get it one comment says apparently im a scum bag for thinking if someone walks up to u in a mall (jita) or better yet is yelling at everyone that passes by give me your money ill gave u 5x back and u walk up and give him all your money.......that you are the one responsible for it as a matter a fact because of your irresponsibly with money this guy gets to keep his kiosk open and rip more ppl off.......whos fault is it really? Just like the old rmt argument if there was noone buying isk there would be no farmers........i think your isk is your responsibility not ccp

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    1. I'm not sure if you're joking or not. If not, then you seriously "don't get it".

      It's not about being scammed. It's not about ISK. It's not about getting 5x your ISK back.

      It's about Erotica and others using EvE to identify gullible or vulnerable people and luring them (through a scam) to an out of game platform (usually teamspeak) for the sole purpose of causing them a lot of emotional distress and anguish through various ransoms. In case you're still unsure, the teamspeak part is nothing to do with EvE, it's purely them wanting to cause emotional distress to someone for their own "enjoyment".

      Delete
    2. It is all about the scam. U think the victim would be doing all this in TS if he didn't think he was getting 5x his shit back??? really??? yeah its all about the scam. his greed makes him stay in the chat as long as he can cuz he thinks he can really get 5x his isk back. if u remove the isk from the equation the victim pry never even gets in ts with the guy. and to the ppl calling this torture. what the hell. when u get tortured I assure you u cant just turn off ts and walk away. kinda of a major point. Im sure John McCain wishes the veit cong "tortured" him by making him sing in TS. Jester calling this torture when the victim fully willingly subjects themselves to it is just disrespectful to ppl that have survived real torture. YES THE VICTIM WILLINGLY SUBJECTS THEMSELVES TO THIS BECAUSE THEY THINKG THEY WILL GET A REWARD. and that's why it shouldn't be a bannable offence as long as their are suckers to educate I think scamming should exist, a fool and his isk are easily parted. so maybe you don't get it.

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    3. You sound angry. Maybe you should calm down and try to elucidate on what you're attempting to communicate. As it is, you're just a screeching mess screaming about irrelevant things.

      Very few people are bothered about the scamming and are happy for it to be a part of EvE, myself included. Many people are concerned about the real life impact of specific targeted emotional stress aimed at gullible or vulnerable people. That you are apparently not certainly says something about you.

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    4. He already had EVERYTHING the guy owned in game there were no in game benefits to be gained. The scam part was over because it had been a total success. After that it's not about the game for the perpetrator.

      The gist here isn't if the act fills the criteria of torture or not. Victims of domestic abuse can "walk away" too. Why don't they? Do they prefer being abused? Did the victim here prefer to be the victim? I wouldn't argue back if domestic violence victim called his/her experience torture, would you? The fact that normal healthy person could and would have walked away isn't what separates torture from not torture. Only people who are vulnerable fall for isk doubling in the first place and get stuck in abusive relationships.

      Let's just assume for a second that the victim is so thick headed and stupid that he just doesn't get it. Are you honestly stating that causing emotional pain to someone by taking advantage of the fact that the victim is stupid is something we as a community should be encouraging?

      Taking candy from a stupid person - OK, happens every day
      Using the victims attachment the the candy that was his and dangling it in
      front of him and promising it a a reward for doing humiliating out of game actions. - NOT OK
      Using the victims attachment the the candy that was his and dangling it in front of him and promising it a a reward for non-EULA violating in game actions. - OK, isk ransom
      Using the victims attachment the the candy that was his and dangling it in front of him and promising it a a reward for non-EULA violating in game actions. No giving the promised reward.- OK, isk ransom + not respecting ransom

      If you think the line shouldn't be drawn here please have the intellectual integrity to state where it should be drawn.

      So into the hyperbole land we go, but the reason is I think the above is already seriously fucked up so the next steps are naturally even more so.
      If you realize person does any fucked up thing you ask is it ok to:
      -Make them commit a crime
      -Make them commit a crime that benefits you in real life
      -Make them cause physical damage to their body
      -Make them cause emotional pain on someone else
      -Make them cause physical pain on someone else
      -Make them kill themselves
      -Make them kill someone

      The fact that the promised reward happens to be a in game makes no difference.

      Delete
    5. except he tried to make them do nothing like that. and ffs if u kill someone cuz someone in a video game told u too.......jesus.......I told u where I feel the line is where it should be if u scam for plex or do something like u say above that has real world consequences I assure you that the scammer will be banned lol. you all blowing it out of proportion. and once again personal responsibility if I kill someone and my excuse is that some guy on the internet told me to do it guess who ends up in jail.......I mean fuck.....as for me being mad.....no my only investment in the argument being that im not a sucker or scammer is that I think if u do something dumb in eve there should be repercussions....the only part I get slightly mad about as a combat vet that has seen the very real effects of real torture on people I get a lil worked up when ppl call something in a video game torture from their home in the 1st world with electricity running water and internet when in reality most of them have no idea what real adversity is. other then that im not emotional about this argument at all. The line is in a place that's just fine if any scammer tried to pull anything off you lil list it violates the rules already. you make your own choices no one can force you to do anything in TS.........personal responsibility. and im saying if you have emotional pain caused to u by anything in a video game u need to get professional help. seriously

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    6. and I wasn't gonna touch this cuz its even more off base then torture, but domestic violence now you are gonna equate a shitty convo in TS to someone systematically beating a family member or SO into submission IRL.......wow just wow........im sorry if u don't see a difference there u know with the actual physical violence on one side and not even the threat of it on the other.......... just wow.......

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    7. "wow just wow" me all you want, but where is the line?

      For the record, I'm not equating domestic abuse and this. I'm stating that they share a common feature in that from the out side you can be fooled into thinking that walking away was easy. Based on that I state that arguing along the walking away line is moot. I see both the differences and the similarities, you apparently only see the differences.

      I would also like to point out that domestic abuse victims would be inclined to use the word torture about emotional abuse without beating someone into submission being part of it. If physical violence is part of the picture the analogy is clearly farther fetched, but I'd be really careful not to imply that lack of physical violence would mean it's not abuse or can't be as bad.

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  15. I don't feel like the "go back to WOW" scam and the erotica1 things are comparable. erotica1 is a bully and a sociopath, using cruelty for fun is his plan from the start. "go back to WOW" is a typical gank that turned into a scam on the fly. Then the victim managed to make things way worse through his ignorance of EVE culture (ie EVE players typically have some contempt for WOW). He flew more than he could afford to lose and we all know that is EVE rule #1. I've been scammed. It's not fun, but it reminded me of the advice I read before I started playing. Trust no one!!!

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  16. It's not at all hard to see why there's so many people saying "But it's a sandbox! He wasn't being forced!" These are the same people constantly bleating about miners and missioners on the boards, and defending any means of attacking them no matter how obviously unbalanced or unintended, and complaining that they "cry nerf".

    That's because any sort of behavior CCP allows will always have some Erotica 1s taking it to an extreme. Gankers complain that ganking has been nerfed over and over but it had to be just to get it into balance. Gankers would gank the game right out of existence without some sort of limits on the ability to do it. Take the MTU drone aggro nerf - it obviously allowed aggressors to circumvent the highsec rule that a victim must either be wardecc'd or voluntarily aggress in order to not get the attacker CONCORDed, but the tears were sometihng to behold when CCP balanced this.

    It's not a coincidence that Erotica 1 is also constantly on the forums, seeking attention and doing it by promoting other forms of gameplay that mainly exist to tell other people they're playing the game wrong, as Destiny said in the thread you referenced a few posts ago - except unlike Destiny, it's mostly miners that are getting ganked and by a crowd that has become very good at using word games to make it seem like the're doing something useful. Take their complaints about "bot aspirants". There is no such thing - one either installs a bot program and uses it or doesn't but you don't "aspire" to it.

    Finally, we have people like Dinsdale trying to exploit these incidents to push their agends. Dinsdale, comparing this behavior to goon behavior, or claiming the devs actually encourage this stuff is total nonsense and hyperbole to the point of being absurd. I have no doubt you approach real life politics in the same "if only I am angry and resentful enough, something will change" way, what with your silly little signature line about the "Harper Regime". Evidently anything that dissatisfies you must be an insurmountable mountain of "people Dinsdale doesn't like being mean because they can." Canada doesn't have a "Regime"; you wouldn't know a "regime" if it bit you in the ass. The goons and the devs are nothing like Erotica 1. Just shutting up would be the best thing you could do for highsec.

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    1. For the record I have moved missioned traded hauled and held a wh for isk, is my main a pirate yeah but most of the noobs i kill have a good experience cuz im more than willing to give advice to them sometimes i give them a few million for their loss, but hey im a scum bag because i believe in personal responsibility

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  17. I find your "what would your mother say" trope strange. I know exactly what my mother would say:

    "Why is a grown man having a fit over a video game?"

    When you get right down to it this is adult - not a child - embarrassing himself and throwing a tantrum because he doesn't want to lose his internet spaceships. Literally no one I know who *doesn't* play Eve would have sympathy for him at all. I actually have a little because I know how important internet spaceships can be to me. But only a little, because there's no excuse to act like that over a game.

    That said, I'm not celebrating or defending Erotica 1. I think he's a scum bag who wouldn't be welcome in my fleet, let alone my house.Decent people just don't get off on hurting others, regardless of how childish or gullible those others are.

    Ban him; he's hurting Eve.

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    1. my mom would ask the same and then when I told her the scam she would tell me that I better not be that fucking stupid.

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  18. Just saw the EN24 article go up on Massively. Congrats, Ripard, you are creating a shitstorm. We are also now giving this vile outlier exactly what he wants: attention.

    "Unacceptable outliers that are not opposed have a funny way of moving toward the fat end of the bell curve and not being outliers any more. Anything that "works" in EVE immediately has imitators and copy-cats and anyone who denies it is deluding themselves."

    Nothing helps that process like lots of attention and finger-wagging from content-starved media. Perhaps EVE will be featured on foxnews.com by the end of the week, and your prophecy will become self-fulfilling.

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    1. Sounds great to me. It plays right into Ripard's comment about showing this to your mother. If there is nothing wrong with this sort of gameplay and people in the mainstream won't have a problem with it then by all means let's drag it into the limelight and examine it fully. if what the scumbags say is true and public opinion is fine, won't it be great publicity for CCP?

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    2. Confirm. I didn't intend this to turn into a shit-storm, but I have absolutely no problem with seeing the opinions of a large number of people living outside the bubble.

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    3. You mean like they did with TSR? A couple of posts ago, you implied that generating a lot of bad publicity for CCP around a griefing incident would be a disaster that could threaten the company's financial viability. Now it's a good thing? Or do you somehow imagine that we would be able to control the narrative?

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    4. First, Gary Gygax was unable to "Ban" players from playing D&D.

      Second, CCP did not respond, and they've had the opportunity to do so. If they allow this sort of thing to continue unabated, and the game's financial viability suffers, I would see that as entirely deserved. It may already be too late.

      The situation where it would be undeserved would be if Erotica 1 was banned the moment CCP heard about the "Bonus Rooms," but the gaming press still got wind of what he did and made a shitstorm over it.

      Delete
  19. So let me get this straight: you are not opposed to idiots getting scammed, you are opposed to people laughing at idiots getting scammed.

    In other words, we've gone from "if you don't play my way, get out of my game" to "if you don't have same sense of humor as I do, get out of my game". Oh wow.

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  20. If you want to do something against the outliers, you need to draw the line somewhere so that enforcement can be consistent. Often that means forbidding even behaviour that you have no problem with because you are very limited in where you draw the line. Other times it means you need to accept behaviour like this because you can't do anything about it without limiting good behaviour too much.

    So do you have a solution, or are you just kicking up a shitstorm ?

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  21. I really think there needs to be a part of the new player experence that covers basic scams I will go that far. I just dont see the need to change the rules to accommodate the lowest common denominators I believe adapt or die is what we used to say in the real world. I'd even go as far to say some kind of way to assinate someone in station would add some risk for the scammer as well. But just banning people for taking advantage of the ignorant???? no just no not only will it waste dev time on the crazy petitions they get, u think ppl wont find a new way to take advantage??? If you of your own free will make a choice there can be consequences, this is why they came up with the eve is real motto.

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    1. You're still confused Fire Bush.

      Erotica had already scammed him out of everything he had before team speak.

      There was nothing more to be done concerning the scam. It was over as the guy had no more assets or ISK.

      This is where the scam ends. Right here. Don't forget this.

      Erotica then continues on the out of game platform team speak for 2 hours and for one sole purpose - to cause him as much mental anguish as possible with no regard to his well being. This has some major real life ramifications. This is nothing to do with the scam as that has finished. It's everything to do with causing another human harm for Erotica's personal "amusement".

      I doubt you'll understand or comprehend what I have just written because you're determined to pretend that everyone here is asking for scamming to be banned. But at least I've now clearly documented it for you so your ignorance is purely down to your own choosing.

      Delete
    2. so then why didnt the dumbass just leave the convo is what im getting at ffs. if your shit is gone you wouldnt stay unless.......so yeah u seem to assume the point of his scam was to get all the guys stuff lol but thats not it at all hes doing this for fun he wants tears and tbh hes entitled to them cuz thats how he plays the game..........im not confused at all i just have no sympathy for ignorance and feel the victim did most of the damage to their self. the scammer in no way beat or threatened physical harm he didnt try to scam the guy out of any real life assents........and here we have ppl comparing this to domestic violence and torture......i think your all confused lol.....is what the scammer did wrong? yes! morally its wrong well currently you are playing a game that pretty much advertises that this kind of meta game gameplay is not only allowed, but if u want to compete in null sec its mandatory. no i dont see spys and the meta game in any different light then someone getting scammed on ts why? because its part of the game. ppl that just insta lock gate camp all day convo ppl and do the same shit, send harassing eve mails just to try to get tears but thats ok? so yeah Maybe you are a lil confused about the rules of the game u play. Im sorry that i feel we dont need to dumb the game down so ppl dont get scammed. tbh I like it this way because it gets rid of weak and shitty players......just cuz this scammer takes it right up to the line it doesnt matter its still jsut a scam and no REAL LIFE damage is done (emotions are worth nothing sorry) if he would have got scammed out of his car or something yeah ban the guy thats to far but this........this is the = of the tuskers making me sing for my implants when they catch my pod as far as im concerned. so it went on for along time because this guy is in denial that he got ripped off or w/e. Still not seeing it as something that needs to change as ive stated b4 the line is in a great place. If you take eve too seriously you need help and im a serious eve player.......Id never to physical harm to myself or anyone else over something that happened in a video game and if you do your problems are way deeper then CCPs lax policy on assholes.

      Delete
    3. oh and btw they didnt have all his shit till they got him in ts and told him to start contracting things and sending them api keys for the bonus round.....all of that this sucker agreed to and went along with full trust in the scammer. Im saying if you ban this activity scamming is next its a slippery slope. and this is just a scam for tears and isk instead of just isk all of that is allowed by CCP. Its the victims fault this isnt a domestic violence case where free will was stripped from the victim this guy made choices to go along with this. he CHOSE TO DO IT no one made him no one hacked his shit no one made him stay in TS3, and im sure no one warned him that eve was full of scammers and trust no one. Shit hes lucky they werent after real world assets cuz it seems to me this guy would be dumb enuf to give it to them........i mean if he was a real psycho as has been pointed out in the comments here b4 there are plenty of things other than singing songs they could have tried to make him(and other victims ) do.....tbh im pretty sure the scammers were shocked the guy stayed in chat that long......im sure he lasted longer than their average victim.....these guys played the game within the rules and i dont see why it should be changed......its terrible behavior but we dont need CCP telling us how to behave imo.......this type of freewill and consequences is why i play eve (and tbh i believe in karma so as far as im concerned the scammer will get his one day. moral judgement isnt the providence of myself or ccp imo. the rest of you enjoy the view from your tower)

      Delete
  22. At the very least, I suppose I should be glad that at least this psycho is neatly proving what I've had to defend through... 5 Hulkageddons:

    There *IS* a difference between pirates/griefers/scammers and REAL psychos. Because that is what Erotica-1 is.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Except that Erotica 1 is both a griefer/scammer and a sociopath; the two are not mutually exclusive, and this does nothing to prove that others do not also fall into both categories.

      Delete
  23. There are quite a few commenters here saying that "he could walk away" as if that somehow absolves what erotica1 does.

    Let's talk about mental abuse in relationships a little.

    I presume we can all agree that a husband mentally abusing his wife is wrong?

    So does that make it the wife's fault if she doesn't leave him?

    Does the fact that the wife doesn't leave suddenly absolve the husband of any wrong-doing?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Hmmm, quite a condescending and sometimes insulting post there Jester.

    Its obvious your very emotionally involved in this 'case'
    Might be time to dial it back abit before any credibility is lost.

    ..Just friendly advice, I do enjoy your blog normally.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I would like to offer what I believe is the reason for the 2+ hour humiliations. Erotica1 is extremely careful not to lie directly. Listen to the recording how he refuses to give a concrete statement to the effect of "sing 2 songs and I will pay up". Instead he only says that he will pay if the victim has "full faith", but never says for how long the victim needs to stay faithful. The multi-hour session is designed to last until the victim inevitably breaks down and loses faith, allowing E1 to keep the assets and his money without breaking his word. This legalese sense of personal honesty shows that E1 is a deeply disturbed individual, but I don't think "tears" factor into his motivation.

    ReplyDelete
  26. I've listened to the entire recording and found it the funniest thing I have listened to in a long time. I stopped laughing once I hit Sohkar's racist rants against African Americans.

    ReplyDelete

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