Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Monday, March 24, 2014

QOTW: Well, that took about 20 minutes...

I've been sharing lately how impressed I am at how fast the Starcraft streamer Destiny has been learning EVE Online. If you throw a tactic at him, sure he generally dies to it a time or three... but then he learns from it and adapts. Thanks to the experienced EVE players in his corp, all the reading he's doing, and the advice he's getting, he's learning the game at a substantially accelerated rate.

So it was a lot of fun reading the debate he's currently having in the Syndicate thread of the Failheap Challenge forum, and it's the source of the quote of the week:
Ehh yeah, call me a bitch, then, heh. I'm still insanely new to this game but I really, really hate the cyno mechanic. It seems like it destroys so much of the strategic side of the game. The idea that you can move an entire carrier/dread fleet from one end of the galaxy to the other in 10 minutes just doesn't sit well with me.
OK... it seems to have taken Destiny about 20 minutes to figure out EVE Online. ;-)

Yeah, I shouldn't kid. Cynos and the power projection they engender is one of the thorniest problems in EVE Online. But it's funny to me how quickly he slammed into it... and decided that it hurts. And if that's where the discussion had stopped, it would be a fun quote, I could quote it, and move on.

But then Destiny chose this forum, this thead, and this audience with which to get philosophical (condensed somewhat):
I guess we'll see if that changes or not, but I have zero draw to meaningless fights. It's just not my specific approach to the game. I can definitely understand how other people are into fights and that getting on killmails etc...is really exciting to people, but it means nothing to me to fly a ship around in a big fight and shoot at stuff. I need there to be real meaning behind the fights.

Again, I understand people enjoy raw PvP, but if I just wanted to fight, I'd go back to Starcraft. I'm looking for something a little bit deeper or more meaningful to me. That's what's cool about Eve, though, yeah? Everyone can play how they want. :-)
...aheh. Remember most people go to Syndicate to get away from sov fights. And here's Destiny (whose corp has been living there) advocating for them! And he does so in what is to that audience a likely unintentionally insulting way: by saying that people who want meaningless PvP should play some other game! Whoops!

He hardly could have chosen a worse place to express this philosophy and a couple of the residents of the Syndicate thread at FHC responded with all the charity, respect, and class for which they are so justifiably famous.

The argument goes back and forth for a few pages, with Destiny giving every bit as good as he gets (or better).(1) But then if the quote at the top wasn't good enough for one week, he lets fly with this piece of pure freakin' gold:
It's "supposed" to be a sandbox, but everyone insists on people following their own paths. Everyone wants people to do the same things they're doing, and they're very against anyone doing anything outside of an established "trend". It's especially funny (to me) when a game markets itself as a sandbox but the community vehemently wages war against anything outside of what they consider to be the "proper way" to play.
Errr... not only did it take Destiny 20 minutes to state his objection to one of the thorniest problems in EVE Online, it took him about ten more minutes to figure out a good solid majority of the community, too...

Finally, he had one other thing to say that I don't understand:
I don't think I'll ever become a bittervet in this game. If it wasn't fun, I'd just stop playing. :b
I'm not sure I understand these phrases "fun" or "stop playing." Can someone explain them to me? ;-)

Anyway, if you have a half-hour or so, go read the thread for a while. There's lots and lots more out there and most of it is extremely entertaining (if somewhat NSFW in parts). The fun bits start on page 14 and don't wrap up until page 23.

gg, Destiny!

(1) My particular favorite thing he says during this section: "'Surviving' in Syndicate, from what I've seen, is being a bitter, inactive theory-crafter who spends more time sitting in station shit-posting on forums than actually doing anything in game. I've played too many games at too high levels to listen to people who are clearly past enjoying the game and have moved on to shitting up forums all day while doing nothing." LOL... wow.


  1. yet before too long his videos will be of him sitting on a titan waiting for a bridge into that "real pvp" maybe hes just no figuring out what low sec is for. you know the place u go when u want good fights and not 200 ppl bridging on top of u. of course b4 too long there he would get ganked by blops and instead of just marking the bait like the rest of us he will make another post like this. Its also interesting that he defends his playstyle while advocating for the removal/nerf of some other play style (sitting on a titan isnt my game but for some ppl its end game.) in the end however no matter what he says there is no meaningless pvp in eve. all those ships cost isk and that means something. But tbh if he really wants sov hes gonna have a lot more then just cynos to QQ about soon. null is the most broken place in eve and thats mainly because the n+1 play style that lives there. But thats the play style null is there for big blobs. im sorry if you think different but low sec and wh are where small pvp lives just move around and count the average number of ships on a km in 0.0 it will be the highest. and tbh im fine with that. if the blob wants to keep pushing the envelope of what the servers can handle thats just fine out in null sec. Just dont expect the environment to change just cuz u dont have your own titans.

  2. Cheers for Destiny!
    I'm behind him on all his points. I hope that CCP has the will to fix the problems that he mentions.

  3. I think my favorite part was the suggestion that he lead his group in the direction of neut tempests and turn his frustration into a profession: killing capitals with subcaps.

  4. Funny, I took his comments completely differently than you did. "Meaning" certainly means different things to different people, but I found his comments generally anti-Null sec instead of pro-Null - which seems to be how you took them.

    1. I haven't read the forum thread for context but I got the exact same impression from the quotes presented here.

  5. He still has a month and a half or so to round out his CSM Campaign.

  6. Destinys Child seems to miss one of the key parts of being a bitter vet, namely the full on Stockholm syndrome.

  7. So much truth in what he says. Sadly the population of Eve who visits most boards is the outspoken group who thinks the game can only be played one way and the idea of a sandbox is great as long as they get to make the rules all the kids have to play by.

    The saddest thing I see when I look at Eve is the wasted potential of a truly phenomenal game which has been consistently pulled down by the attitude of HTFU.

  8. Eve is fun. And you can play however you want, but certain ways are certainly better. He's been with us, what? 6 months? I'll concede he may have learned a lot about the PVP landscape in that time, but that's only part of Eve. A lot of the reasons things are the way they are is because of things outside of that facet of the game.

    For instance, Time Zones. Time Zones shapes combat, alliances, and a hundred other little facets of the game. There are certain things which are straight up stupid to do because of Time Zones. We don't think about it too much day to day because Eve has evolved to deal with them.

    There are a thousand other little things Eve deals with no other game does as fully as Eve, each shaping why certain things are suboptimal. Most of us don't even know why certain things are bad, and why we do some things the way we do in game. But it has a reason. We just may not have, and may never, come into contact directly with why. It's some other player's bread and butter gameplay though.

    So when someone comes in and says, "This should be thus!" or "I want to do this completely differently than all of you!", I don't take them too seriously.

    They've not yet tried to find the bottom of the rabbit hole, got lost when the hole turned into a warren, bartered with the blind mole king's idiot brother for a unreliable map only moles can read, which unfortunately led them to a nest of pit vipers that required them to leave all their stuff to safely flee, then tunnelled with their bare hands straight back up to get out, and never having come anywhere near finding the rabbit.... And that's just Tech 2 production.

    1. Destiny won`t comform to anything. He used to be the number 1 streamer I watched for sc2 and he had his own playstyle and never changed it even when it went out of style and got nerfed.

  9. Since when did failheap become emo teen rage forum? It used to be full of bitter vets who, whilst raging, did it with a certain level of maturity. Reading that thread it appears as though people like LeoniaTavira and some others are only just reaching puberty.

    As for Destiny, good luck to him. It's up to him how he plays and how he learns. Given that he has a fairly big following still, he's probably doing alright. Most negative comments against him are, as far as I can tell, from people who have been playing the game for much longer but have had far less "success".

  10. Being capable of moving large groups anywhere on the map in a short time makes Eve a tiny game with many systems. Remove cyno's and Eve lives up the size that the system count would suggest.

    Besides, based on per jump count per character in Eve. Where do the majority of Active Eve players reside?

  11. Hyperbole, immaturity and a complete misinterpretation of what constitutes torture.

    While the act may have rustled your jimmies, your response to it is infantile at best. EVE is a sandbox game, expect to have a few sandcastles kicked down. If you can't deal with that then this game is not for you.

    The way you deal with sadistic personalities is to deny them the pleasure of watching you rage/cry.

    People who are unable to understand sunk costs and competitive social interaction combined with group dynamics and anonimity need to take a good hard look at the game before going around getting emotionally invested in it. Grow up.

    1. Think you toasted the wrong bread, bro...


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