Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Tuesday, April 15, 2014

CSM8 Status Report: Week fifty

I'm going to keep this update fairly short.

The CSM9 election season is in full swing. If you haven't voted yet, why are you reading this? Go vote!

CSM8 is suddenly busy again with meetings, more Skype chats, and more private forum threads. As we get closer and closer to the release of the summer expansion, the topics of more and more of these will be appearing in the Features and Ideas section of the EVE-O forums: pirate faction battleships and mining barges and exhumers, for two. We'll also be seeing dev-blogs of the larger changes, such as the drone rebalance going in for summer. Most of these as they appear will be getting reviewed by CSM8 as we head out the door and some devs seem to realize that they're getting their last shot at getting our input to spot any holes in these announcements...

Now that they're public, they go to all of you for your comments, so don't neglect to do that!

CSM8 will be holding our last Town Hall of our term on:
Saturday, April 26 at 1900 EVE time
As always, EVE University and EVE Radio will be providing their excellent technical support to our efforts. I'd like to once again thank Neville Smit and DJ Wiggles for their assistance! If you have questions, send them to me either in the EVE-O forum thread above or to my EVE mail and I'll get them added to the queue for the Town Hall. Hope to see you there!

In publishing the Winter Summit Minutes, the minutes for one session got left out by mistake.. that session is now available. However, just to give you a hard time, I'll leave which session was missing as an exercise for the student. ;-) In addition, the remaining sessions will be released once the topics of those sessions are no longer under NDA. Don't think we've forgotten about the DUST session from the Summer Summit, either, because we haven't. The content of that one is also still under NDA.

Speaking of DUST, I realized this week that I don't think I've ever mentioned: the CSM and DUST 514's CPM stay in pretty close contact. We have Skype channels both with the CSM and CPM only, and with the CSM, CPM, and CCP devs that work on the EVE-DUST link. You'd be surprised at the amount of cross-talk there is between the two player councils, particularly as we enter election season for both of us. And it's very very common for us to share ideas and strategies for how to deal with our mutual enemies in Reyk and Shanghai. ;-)

And that, I think, is all there is to talk about this week! More next week...


  1. Blue donut: CSM/CPM edition

  2. "the CSM and DUST 514's CPM stay in pretty close contact. We have Skype channels both with the CSM and CPM only, and with the CSM, CPM, and CCP devs that work on the EVE-DUST link."

    Sorry to be rough, but for the moment the benefits of this proximity are inexistant...

  3. I hope the publication of the Dust514 session of the CSM8 SUMMER minutes won't be a CSM9 platform item to run on

    CCP Manifest response: Enough of the material from this session has since shifted in the live DUST development environment that I'm afraid the Cursed Onyx-Black CIA Marker of Ultimate Redaction +4 may very well have left indelible marks upon it. As always the CSM provided excellent council from their capsuleeric vantage-point, but I'm afraid this session may very well be lost for the ages. A very real and sometimes manifested possibility when the CSM is shown stuff from CCP's other products.

    We appreciate your quest for ultimate knowledge of all things, but sometimes even we Vikings have to put a light veil over our coy faces.

    Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4459216#post4459216

    Regards, a Freelancer

    1. Yep. I wanted to make it clear that the CSM had not/never forgotten about it. Sometimes CCP develops something, the path of development goes in a different direction, and what we're told about never happens. But yet the fact that whatever it is is *not* happening is itself worthy of NDA.

      That's what happened here. It's not a conspiracy and never was.

  4. "Now that they're public, they go to all of you for your comments, so don't neglect to do that!"

    So, why exactly does Fozzie use F&ID correctly to discuss changes with the players, but many of the other devs, like Ytterbium and SoniClover, can't seem to get their act together and do the same thing? The other devs put up a devblog, read the forum feedback for maybe the first 1-2 days, and then pretty much ignore it.

    I've also noticed that Fozzie actually uses the forum feedback to adjust and balance proposed changes; the others tend to use the forums simply to argue with the players and/or to try to justify their locked-in-stone changes, despite obvious lack of any recent applicable hands-on game play. At best, the most we can expect from the other devs are token tweaks to their frequently bad ideas (like the upcoming reprocessing changes).

    You CSM8 guys have a week or so left - so, how about spending some of that time to put together a player survey on CCP devs and their interaction - good or bad - with the players? The devs, individually and collectively, are at the heart of all changes to the game, after all, so isn't that the right place to start, when trying to fix the problems with the game?

    1. Afaik devs aren't _required_ to do those threads the same way they aren't _required_ to talk to the CSM.
      It's up to the CSM and us (in those threads) to prove that it's worth engaging with them & us. That way maybe other devs see the usefulness, too.

      Of course not every Dev is skill/personality-wise able to e.g. deal with forums. Thats why most companies have customer support inbetween devs and customer.

    2. @Chris -

      "It's up to the CSM and us (in those threads) to prove that it's worth engaging with them & us. That way maybe other devs see the usefulness, too."

      Actually, from the individual dev POV, it is NOT worth engaging, with the CSM or players, esp. on the forums. That takes a lot of extra time, in addition to doing the actual day-to-day work. It is also frustrating, since a lot of players (incl the CSM) make non-constructive remarks, and/or just want to endlessly argue their own singular game play POV.

    3. Different devs approach player feedback in different ways. There are also sometimes good reasons for not getting involved in a direct discussion. For instance, if something is a nerf and the devs KNOW it's a nerf and they KNOW players are going to be ticked off about it... but the nerf has to go in for game play balance reasons somewhere else, then they won't reply to comments other than to say that. The only thing commenting can do is further stoke player annoyance about the necessary nerf.

      But they'll still WATCH the discussion to see if someone comes up with a reason not to do the nerf that they didn't think of.

      Doesn't mean that's what happened here, but it's just an example.

    4. @Jester: Your statement is nonsense.

      Most of us players are not stupid. We know that the game requires both buffs and nerfs to achieve balance. Sure, a small minority will always whine about every nerf. But, if you look carefully, the primary reason why the majority gets upset is not because of any necessary nerf.

      The primary reason is because too many of the CCP devs do NOT read the forums and refuse to respond to or incorporate reasonable player feedback. And, far too often, CCP devs have made poor-to-bad game changes, which players have reasonably informed them, in advance, would not work.

      Now, during tiericide, Fozzie knowingly hit more than a few of our favorite FOTM ships with the nerfbat, but that didn't stop him from participating in the forum discussions. Yes, a few players were unreasonably outraged (always will be), but the fact that Fozzie read the posts, responded, and incorporated the "rational and reasonable" player feedback resulted in the majority of the player base supporting even the most unpopular tiericide changes, without the slightest hint of a "summer of rage" type response.

      That is the right way to do the job.

    5. @Anon1046: The real reason that most of the devs don't respond to player feedback in the forums is because they are afraid of publicly admitting that they don't understand the game as well as the players. It has been a long time (years) since they played the game for more than a few hours per year (and this few hours is limited to null-sec dev roams, usually). This fear is understandable, since it ties into their qualification to keep doing their jobs.

      In most jobs, working at a company for a long time means that you have more experience and are more valuable than newer employees. In the case of being an EVE developer, this situation is actually reversed. Newer employees such as CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise actually understand the game, and the players, far better than older employees such as CCP SoniClover, CCP Ytterbium, CCP Greyscale, etc.

      The older employees have actually lost touch with what is going on in the game, because they really don't have much interest in playing it anymore. Which, if you think about it, is a peculiar habit for a game developer to have - ie. their game is not sufficiently interesting for them to play it themselves.

      In any case, getting into forum discussions with the players just provides more proof of their increasing lack of knowledge of the game and understanding of the players (ie. the customers), and increases the risk that they will be pushed lower on the promotion list and higher on the layoff list.

      In this situation, it is always wiser to make your mistakes and be as quiet as possible about them.

  5. can not wait to see the new mobile structures. I am hoping for either a mobil drug lab, dead space gate, or the mobile vending machine. Fingers crossed :)

  6. CPM Elections? Not announced!


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