Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Tuesday, May 6, 2014

Criminal

OK. I'm going to keep this short. You guys have already seen me react to disgusting, reprehensible behavior toward EVE players outside of game. My opinions on that are a matter of public record. So my feelings on the following are unlikely to be a surprise but I want to make them clear regardless.

At some point during Fanfest, someone defaced the Worlds Within a World monument, attempting to "scratch out" the name of another EVE player, Xenuria. Now don't get me wrong: Xenuria isn't one of my favorite people and he's often one of EVE's most notorious trolls.


But this is unforgivable. To start with, this was an absolutely despicable act taken against another EVE player outside of game. That alone deserves nothing but condemnation. Even more than that though, it was a criminal act taken against a public monument, the city of Reykjavik, and against the EVE player community. The action simply adds to the narrative that some EVE players are disgusting human beings that have no place in 21st century civilized society.

Here's the EVE-O thread discussing the matter, here's CCP Falcon's confirmation that the action did in fact take place, and here's his statement on CCP's reaction plus an offer to the perpetrator to come clean about what he's done before the full force of the law comes down on him. Kudos to Falcon for his furious, entirely justifiable reaction.

To be very clear: I hope whomever did this is caught, prosecuted, and made to pay for replacement of the entire plate that he defaced. And then I hope his EVE account is perma-banned and it is made clear to him that he is not welcome in CCP's current games or any of their future games. There is simply no place for this kind of person in the New Eden community. Ever.

That's all.

EDIT (7/May/2014): Falcon has announced that three players directly involved and one indirectly involved have been identified. The three directly involved are having their EVE and DUST 514 accounts permanently banned and are barred from participating in future Fanfest events. The one indirectly involved is now subject to a six month temporary ban. The unspoken implication in the post is that those who came forward willingly will not be legally prosecuted but that one or more people who did not will be. All in all, I feel this is an entirely appropriate reaction on CCP's part. It's sad that it came to this but let's hope something like this never happens again. Kudos again to Falcon for his handling of this matter!

114 comments:

  1. Predictable. Sad, but given the community were talking about, par for the course.

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    1. If it were par for the course for the EVE community, asshat, then there would have been more than a single incident of monument defacing.

      Delete
    2. Poe, you're one of the jerks he's talking about. You are one of the community members who has demonstrated, in both word and deed, that EVE players are self-serving narcissists with sociopathic tendencies and a gift for rationalizing their own behavior while condemning it in others.

      More to the point, "par" doesn't imply that everyone or even a significant number of people will do a thing. In fact, only a "scratch" player will ever play at or below par without using a handicap.

      For someone who left the game, you sure do spend a lot of time commenting on it. You'll never be relevant again, asshat.

      Delete
    3. I play EVE. Nor would I have ever defaced the monument. Take your bullshit anonymous hypothesizing elsewhere.

      Delete
    4. Poe you do not understand what the phrase means. Par for the course means that the event was probably going to happen. not that the event would be a common occurance. just that the event would be likely to occur at least once. as for the rest. You did prove that you are only in it for yourself. and F*(% the rest. rmting your assets and then bragging about how you did it... Yep thats narssistic, so point one. Making post upon post about how evil RMT is, and then doing it? Hey that fufills the next bit about being able to rationalize behavior in yourself that you condemn in others... no hypothesis, no hyperbally... except for the asshat part, i doubt you wear an ass as a hat. In that case it is metaphor for the implication of where your head is. I do hope CCP finds your new account(s) and they find the banhammer.

      Delete
    5. Poe talking about something he doesnt understand? Shocking.

      Seriously, didnt you say something about leaving EVE? Stop getting my hopes up if you arent actually going to do it.

      Delete
    6. "If it were par for the course for the EVE community, asshat, then there would have been more than a single incident of monument defacing." - Poe

      There were a few other attempts, during Fanfest. Fortunately, the persons involved were stopped by their friends, before they could actually do it. And, yes, they were drunk. And, no, I won't tell you who they were. No crime, no foul.

      And other people have suggested defacing the memorial. There were Goons who wanted to do more than just slap a vinyl sticker on the damn thing. Again, fortunately, these particular morons did not attend Fanfest.

      So, yeah, it was probably going to happen as some point.

      Delete
  2. I too hope he is caught and all that that entails.... bur I have to say,I am sorry, but I am not actually surprised.

    The level of juvenile and puerile behavior that some EVE players are capable of has disgusted me since day one... but not surprised me. I had hoped against hope that EVE was going to be so complex and deep and require a more mature long-term player that we would be able to avoid this kind of childishness, sadly common in games involving teens and preteens...

    I have been saddened day after day each time I am proved wrong. The worst is, I can guarantee the person who did this feels no shame at all, what's worse, regardless of his age, he may not even understand how very wrong what he did actually is, even after he's caught. Some supposed 'adults' I have met in game don't get it every single day. Shame on him... shame on us all.

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    1. Yes, because you'd never see "juvenile and puerile behavior" from the World of Warcraft, or Star Citizen or Lord of the Rings Online communities.

      Get a grip. There are immature assholes in any community.

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    2. I have been in several communities previously which have respect at the front of all behaviour. The fact that a sub-component of the Eve community sees nothing wrong with the actions of E1 or this latest piece of contempt?

      Are you saying because other communities have poor standards that it makes it acceptable that the Eve community be tolerant of being an asshole?

      I know, it should have been Vile Rat's name vandalised - then we might have seen an appropriate level of indignation from players towards an insipid act.

      Delete
    3. Hence the "not actually surprised," Poe. TurA neither included nor excluded your favorite other games--have a cup of grips for yourself.

      Delete
    4. There are immature assholes in any community.... why, yes YOU are.

      Delete
    5. Poe has a point. Most people in any community, including EVE's, have a healthy sense of proportion and can tell where the lines are drawn. It's the few assholes who don't that are a problem. Goes for any hobby I've ever seen. There have been cases of assault - verbal and physical - in youth sports, for example, to say nothing of regular brawls at professional sport games.

      The sooner these people are booted, the better. In this case, CCP is doing the right thing. Playing rough in-game is fine; carrying petty rivalries into RL and vandalizing property is not.

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    6. @Andreas:

      "Most people in any community, including EVE's, have a healthy sense of proportion and can tell where the lines are drawn."

      No, actually, they don't. Whenever the lines you draw become grey and fuzzy, people will cross them.

      RL examples? Cheating on taxes; drinking to excess; driving faster than the posted speed limit; texting on your phone while driving; et cetera.

      I guess you can call them all a**holes, but then this means that just about everyone is an a**hole.

      Delete
    7. @ Anon I'm willing to bet that most people know the difference between giving their opponent a good pounding in a boxing ring vs. jumping him or her in the parking lot. The assholes in this context are the ones who go outside set limits to get at their in-game rivals.

      Delete
    8. @Andreas Flore:

      EVE online is the equivalent of picking a random teenager, blidnfold him, cuff his arms to his back, throw him into the ring and hope he will uncuff and unblind himself in time to avoid being beaten by a professional boxer...

      Delete
    9. You mean all those randoms who read mainstream articles about massive beatings players give each other and thousands upon thousands of RL dollars lost and their first thought is "wow, how do I get in on THAT?"

      Yeah, those poor, poor things... my heart bleeds for them :eye roll:

      Delete
  3. I will put money on "I was drunk" as the excuse proffered, should the perpetrator be caught.

    I was hoping that somebody just Photoshopped scratches onto the picture as a monumental troll, so to speak. Sad to find I was wrong in that.

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    1. "I was so drunk that I vandalized a monument, took a picture of my crime, created a twitter account that pretends to be someone else and posted the picture on the internet."

      Yeah that's not even a feasible excuse.

      Delete
    2. "I will put money on "I was drunk" as the excuse proffered, should the perpetrator be caught."

      Well it worked for Mittens.

      Delete
  4. To be honest, the most disgusting thing about this is the call for perma bans while Mittens is still playing the game after his screw up at fanfest.

    Think about it, the Monument is only a thing, the action of this guy even represents eve-online very well, because not all players can keep 'it' in the game.

    Does not make it right, nor do I think a perma-ban would be unreasonable, its just the disparity between this and other events. *shrugs* Maybe I am just disgusted by the amount of usage of the word disgusted for a mere minor act of disgusting vandalism.

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    1. Yes. CCP set the precedent. Threaten to end a human life, and well...we'll call the staff together, have a meeting, and then after careful deliberation over a considerable period of time...we'll look at how the media is viewing this and consider if we should just recommend the victimized player HTFU or well...alright if you insist we'll hesitantly slap the perpetrator on the wrist.

      A thing can be replaced. People, not so much. I wonder which one we should value more?

      Delete
    2. Mittens never threatened to end a human life.

      Delete
    3. "Mittens never threatened to end a human life."

      Actually, he has, when he is drunk. Not during this particular Fanfest incident, however.

      Nice enough guy when sober, but complete a**hole when drunk. Can't hold his liquor worth a damn.

      Delete
    4. Tenris,

      Had things ended any differently with mittins I dont think he would be playing the game. I think the one thing that has merrit is if the guy(person really, we can't be 100% sure the person is male, but given the known information about player distrobution and gut feeling its much better than 50% that whoever did this was male)... if the person who did this actually takes CCP up on the offer of confessing and attempting to make it right without being caught before hand.

      The man behind mittins saw his own words and was horrified by them. Call it damage control by a smart person, but one way or another he took initiative to make it right. and the affected party (the guy he named) was satisfied. If the guy who was dumb enough to do this comes forward to CCP, and they (and the city/other involved/vested parties) come to an aggrement for reparations that satisfies everyone outside of court then sure whatever the terms in the aggrement should be met, perma ban or otherwise... The difference for the two situations is that with mittins we are looking back at a completed event, from fsk up to closure. this one is still open. The dude done fucked up... now we get to see where this all leads

      The only thing i can't understand from Jester is that he puts importance on the defacing being against a specific player. this person caused real, and expensive damage to a piece of property in the name of an in game agenda. That is reprehensible. My mind isnt made up about the flatbee sticker, namely because from my understanding it was the kind that could be removed from the monument without actually removnig any monument with it.

      Delete
    5. So, what happens if it is Mittens' face on the security videos?

      Delete
  5. Actually great points by all: what is more vile? enticeing someone to suicide and asking others to help make it happen? Or scratching a piece of metal? Or trolling someone who can stop at any moment, but chooses not to?

    See Rippard this is the problem, you make it up as you go along you don't have a line in the sand, if something disgusts you well that must be the most worst thing ever. I am actually curious to see your response to Tenris and myself.

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  6. it is just a tiny scratch on a piece of stone, in a year, after wind and weather (and seagull(the birds, not the dev)-poo, you likely won't even be able to distinguish it from it's sourrounding.

    i mean, honestly, how upset will you, or ccp, or whoever be, once the local kids start putting their grafitti on it.

    as the "monument" symbolizes the connection of the virtual with the real world, the names are from it's virtual part, see it as a depiction of eve's nature.


    so keep calm, take a deep breath, and take a second to think about: how could ccp prosecute the "vandal". it's unlikely that he's from iceland, therefore, even if it's videotaped, he's back at his homecountry by now, and the video shows some drunk kid in a hoodie - i don't think interpol will make it a case. in a week or so noone will give a shit about it.

    you also want to keep in mind that your american nature, with it's obsession for monuments and such, might be blurring your judgement.
    just a piece of stone.

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    1. You put the word vandal in quotes as if you don't believe this was vandalism. That alone makes your reply suspect. I assure you that this is criminal vandalism and whomever did it does not deserve your quotation marks.

      But you're right about one thing: this accurately characterizes part of EVE's nature: the despicable part that doesn't have a place in polite society. And your defense of that is indefensible. I'm going to exaggerate here, but no doubt by your reckoning, the State of Liberty is best melted down for its copper and the Declaration of Independence is just "a piece of paper."

      Delete
    2. You don't need a vandal to deface the Statue of Liberty or the Declaration of Independence. The American government has spent the last 20 years effectively devaluing those all on their own.

      **This has been a completely off-topic rant of Poe**

      Delete
    3. The State of Liberty is an asset, attracting people and making money, the copper does not make up for it. At least for now. Copper prices still on the rise. ;-)

      The declaration of independence at the other hand ... is indeed just a piece of paper. Not the paper is what matters, but what it is standing for, it's content and its context.

      Next thing you are telling us is that Euro notes are not just a piece of paper that has burned the exact same value it has when ripped to pieces or as a whole.

      Yes, scratching a monument, even a eve-online monument is vandalism. So is writing your name at your desk in school.
      No, its not even crime in most of the civilized world. But even a petty offense can become expensive for the offender, restoration is not always cheap.

      Anyway: http://thedoghousediaries.com/5740

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    4. i also put the vandal in "", as it is the word vor an ancient german tribe. they actually were fairly civilized.

      as to your references to the copper and paper thing. sorry, i am not american and therefore do not understand the analogy. i assume you want to cater my argumentation where i said, calm down.

      i also understand that eve is not about being polite.

      Delete
  7. I think its worth noting, that not only was someone that... stupid, I think attributing this to evil gives the criminal too much credit for having a brain. They then tried to frame someone else with a brand new twitter profile (it was in the discussion last i read it, and that was after three seperate mods had been through).

    Actually what may be even more sad is that there were people calling for the more or less in game linching of said person without stopping to think that he probably wasn't dumb enough to use a twitter with his name in it.

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    1. The attempted frame-up is juvenile and stupid and not worth mentioning.

      Delete
    2. Jester,

      I would agree that the frameup is juvenile, and seperate from the forum rage is not worth mention, but the forum rage and the readyness of people to believe it, that might be worth a mention of not jumping to really illogical conclusions.

      Delete
    3. The frame up is significant. Shows the whole thing was not a drunken misstep but a considered act. I hope Gevlon pursues CCP to release the details of those involved to him so he can pursue them for Identity Fraud. The Goons have been protected by CCP for too long.

      Delete
    4. @ the annon talking about the significance of the frameup....

      No, they shouldn't one the account being named the real gelvon does not meet the level of impersonation neccessary for identity fraud. I could make a twitter handle "the real Ripard" (if its not taken) and post all kinds of attacks against people, such as mittins, or sugar kyle etc and while my actions may cross lines other places just the name comes nowhere near identity fraud. If i claimed that i ran this blog, or was the man behind Ripard Teg in game then I would be getting closer, but as they are online personas, and not legal persons i doubt you would get there still (then again in that regard IANAL)

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  8. From a property standpoint this act was obviously bad. I don't find committing this kind of act outside of Eve against another player bad. Gaming has become more common and is saturating many societies across the globe. But games allow players to hide behind anonymity giving the retarded among us the notion that they can commit rude, vile, uncivil acts that they wouldn't normally commit face to face without getting their butts kicked.

    There needs to be some sort of punishment when this happens to bring the idiots in line. Gaming companies in all game types have fallen way short of policing this kind of behavior. Take a look at the other names around his. They weren't scratched out. Maybe because they weren't complete dicks in a virtual video game. This Xanuria guy is probably such a dick that he's boasting about being scratched out as we speak. His name will probably not be the last.

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  9. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... who cares. I really don't. I'm out of outrage over minor stupid stuff people do. And this is really minor. Fine the guy, replace the plaque, add a piece of plexiglass over it, and move on. We're talking a misdemeanor in real world cost here.

    I'm not going to have manufactured outrage over a misdemeanor.

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    1. EDITOR: Bunch of replies to this comment deleted.

      Let's try not to turn my blog into CAOD, hmk?

      Delete
  10. Gee, put a monument full of the names with some of the most despicable players out in a public setting and bad things happen to it. Gee...its SUCH a surprise.

    Sincerely Ripard, are you that damm naive?

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    1. Yeah, I have a terrible curse: I walk around thinking EVE players are better people than they are.

      Delete
    2. I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

      Everyone should relax, the person responsible was just "playing the villian".

      What is that you will say... some of the player base can't tell the difference between the game and reality? People have been making that point on the forums and on this blog for years now. And the minute you get these people out of the game will be the minute that the player base starts to grow to reflect that great game that Eve is. Until you are prepared to do that then you might as well get you a nice fluffy pillow to cry in, you are going to need it. Wait until someone breaks someone's jaw at a fanfest. That day is coming.

      Delete
    3. @Jester

      That's your first mistake.

      Delete
    4. Jester, thinking we're better than we are is ignoring the fact that there's more than one of us. Some of us are *worse* than we are, and CCP promotes a cold, harsh universe where ganks happen and we are told to HTFU. Hope they budgeted for monthly monument repairs, just as they tell us not to fly what we can't replace.

      I'd like to see the perp fingered and at least banned.

      Delete
  11. Whatever...the vandal is long gone from Iceland, and will now never return, especially if the vandal is fingered and banned.

    I am actually laughing now, though sadly. Look at my posts the day the discussion about this monument to hubris was first announced. I, among others, screamed about having an ingame monument, if one was needed at all, and now look at the forum discussions.

    If you think this is the first and last defacing this hunk of rock and metal is going to endure, think again.

    I would think the falling sub base might be a tad more important than this.

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  12. Well Ripard, you are a guy who's prone to hyperbolic overreactions. But when you're right, you're right. Fuck whoever did this.

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  13. Anyone who just came from Fanfest has seen the amount of graffiti around the city, isn't it really just a matter of time before something much bigger than a 1 inch scratch occurs?

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    1. Grafitti the fuck out of the monument ... just don't graffiti the names. :)

      The difference between some bored Viking teen painting graffiti and what this dude did to Xenuria's name is all about vindictive behaviour.

      Delete
    2. The difference is that Reyk is practically covered in statuary (particularly for a city of its size) and I didn't see graffiti on any of them.

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    3. "vindictive behaviour"

      Seems to me that's what Eve is all about, when you get down to it.

      Delete
  14. Some of the other replies show a bit of a pattern:

    "Relax, it's just a game" to "Relax, it's just a statue."

    I'll take this as evidence that people who hide behind this defense to excuse sadistic in-game actions to actually have a deficit of morality in "real life" as well.

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    1. People who exhibit "sadistic in-game actions" do indeed have RL psychological problems. This has been well-established.

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    2. Cite your "well-established" references. Your wishful thinking does not equal well-established.

      Delete
    3. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2453609,00.asp

      In two online studies (total N = 1215), respondents completed personality inventories and a survey of their Internet commenting styles. Overall, strong positive associations emerged among online commenting frequency, trolling enjoyment, and troll identity, pointing to a common construct underlying the measures. Both studies revealed similar patterns of relations between trolling and the Dark Tetrad of personality: trolling correlated positively with sadism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism, using both enjoyment ratings and identity scores. Of all personality measures, sadism showed the most robust associations with trolling and, importantly, the relationship was specific to trolling behavior. Enjoyment of other online activities, such as chatting and debating, was unrelated to sadism. Thus cyber-trolling appears to be an Internet manifestation of everyday sadism.

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    4. Actually, Poetic, YOU can cite the studies/references that say they DON'T. That is your preferred method of deduction though. Make/suggest other people actually find the information and when they don't, obviously their position was bullshit. People with mental problem and personal issues in real life have always liked to take them out on other people when they believe they are anonymous and can get away with it. This is only a revelation to the deluded, or the principles themselves.

      I hope people fuck up that little Hilmar-penis so bad, it's the laughing stock of Iceland and it is eventually removed be cause it's such an eyesore. A good reminder that his little rock pile is part of his game's meta game too. Fitting. One of Hilmar's little "social experiments" was off its leash. Perfecet.

      Delete
  15. Was the monumnet not also defaced by that goon symbol?
    Have they took care of that?

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    1. Well you see calling on people to help push a person to suicide and to deface a monument (if you are goon) is cool. Put some scratch's on a players name well thats a lifetime ban.

      Delete
    2. Oh no that is different. It is like the Eve forums where the Goons break every rule but never get censored. They could drop their pants and shit on the momument and CCP would say it was valid commentary on a modern art masterpiece.

      Delete
    3. "Was the monumnet not also defaced by that goon symbol?"

      Legally speaking, that, too, is considered vandalism. And, CCP's failure to respond probably did encourage this idiot to take it up a notch and do some real damage.

      Delete
    4. actually as much as the goons can be obnoxious, this time they acted rather responsibly. the fatbee was a vinyl sticker that was meant to be easily removable with no lasting adhesive residue.

      in the goons case (gods help me, I'm defending them) there was 'no harm done'. the fatbee was placed there for a few pics, then pulled off. no damage to the monument at all.

      Delete
    5. @Edward - sorry to say, but you are wrong. Vandalism is vandalism.

      Like you, CCP didn't think it was a big deal, and were actually ok with the Goons publicizing what they did. This opened the door for someone else, with less brains and probably more alcohol in his blood, to push it further.

      If CCP had severely and publicly spanked the Goons for what they did, there is a good chance that everyone else would have treated the monument as "hands off" and this incident might have been avoided.

      You can't draw fuzzy lines, about what is ok and not ok, and then not expect people to cross the line. It always happens.

      Delete
    6. The fatbee sticker is indeed vandalism, but I'm less aggravated by that because it's not permanent and it's relatively easy to fix. I myself liberated a fatbee sticker from the CCP cafeteria at the Summer Summit. It now graces the bag in which I keep my headphones.

      Delete
  16. It was dumb for sure and should be punished accordingly.

    It was problably some "younger" fanfest visitor who thought it would be funny w/o thinking. You can bet they will be sorry when they are caught.

    Everyone deserves a second chance IMO, but the punishment should also fit the crime accordingly.

    Credacom

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  17. Let me quote myself (http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2014/02/mfw.html?showComment=1391781836857#c5463472023809286411):

    <<"Do you really have that low of an opinion of what we're all doing in New Eden?"

    500,000 guys being jerks to each other doesn't counts as a high in my list of noteworthy achievements of mankind... XD

    (Anyway, the monument opens interesting venues for metagaming: FAI, how will they put the names on it? Will it take paint thinner/acid/a chisel to erase someone's name from the monument? Also, will it be graffiti-proof? What about taggin your corporate colors on it? And what would happen if someone vandalized -say- Vile Rat's name?)>>

    Ditto. Welcome to the real world.

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  18. I'm still convinced that this monument was a waste of time and resources, erected only to bolster Hilmar's ego and hubris, while the "time capsule" was a complete scam.

    However, regardless of what I feel about the value of the monument, I will wholeheartedly agree that this act was reprehensible, and the perpetrator is fully deserving of whatever legal action may be taken against him.

    Still, what I also find inexcusable was CCP's complete lack of preparation for something like this. It was widely speculated in the forums after the monument was announced that this exact sort of thing would happen at Fanfest. A plexiglass barrier would have been a relatively inexpensive prevention measure. Even a couple of temporary security cameras to be run during Fanfest would not have been too much of a stretch. Really, if CCP had been paying any attention to the forum discussions surrounding this monument, it would have been no surprise that something like this might happen. Their negligence in the matter is damning, and their failure to take any precautions is pathetic.

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    1. In other words, its all CCPs fault, because they were not prepared and were driving into space were they do not belong.

      Excuse me, I am in good mood. ;-)

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    2. No, I didn't say that at all. It is the vandal's fault, and he should be held fully accountable.

      But CCP had the opportunity to prevent this; they had every reason to expect it, and they failed to act. They were completely negligent when they should have been vigilant.

      If you are a simple bystander, and you observe a crime being committed, are you guilty of that crime? Of course not. But if you fail to report it or take other action to prevent it, you are guilty of negligence.

      Or to use another analogy, if someone burglarizes your home, are you responsible for the crime? No, but the insurance company is not going to have much sympathy for you if you always leave your doors unlocked and windows open.

      Delete
  19. EVE is harsh. RL is harsher.

    Vandalism is considered to be fairly minor anti-social behavior in many cultures, particularly in the US. Damn near every school kid the US has vandalized something, and most Americans don't even notice graffiti, and worse, anymore. They take this behavior overseas, too - seen it many, many times.

    You think vandalizing a monument raised to your silly video game is bad? What about vandalizing 500-year-old churches, and tombstones in cemeteries?

    So, not a comment on the EVE players, per se - more a comment on the societies from which the EVE players come from.

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    1. "Vandalism is considered to be fairly minor anti-social behavior in many cultures, particularly in the US."

      It has become this, because the authorities consider it too expensive to prosecute. And the lack of response creates incentive to repeat/extend.

      It is well documented that the only way to stop this kind of activity is to eliminate any sign of it as fast as possible. Repair the damage so the folks that did it can no longer point to it and say "I did that."

      The fact that many people shrug their shoulders and say "they should have expected that" or "its only minor vandalism" speaks volumes to the perpetrators. If the response is harsh, is open supported by other players and all sides declare this activity as reprehensible, then the occurrence frequency and intensity will decrease. If we are apathetic (or even worse, smugly supportive) then it will escalate.

      I hope they identify this person. Shame the hell out of them. If they cannot achieve criminal prosecution, a nice civil suite (which most certainly can cross international borders) is in order.

      Keep game shit in game, folks. The real world is stressful enough.

      Delete
  20. I think this is just part of the meta-game.

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  21. Just curious... is Erotica 1's name up there? If it is, would you have been equally outraged if it had been defaced?

    Personally, I'm not in the least bit surprised it happened. If you'd asked me to try and guess the 3 most likely names to be vandalised, I'd probably have guessed Mittens, Xenuria and Dinsdale; in that order...

    Yes, I think it should be punished.

    If the perp' is Icelandic, then charge 'em appropriately - if you have proof.

    Otherwise, a *temp* ban - if you have proof.

    Permaban, in my personal opinion, is an over - reaction.

    -- Hiram Alexander

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow...I am the 3rd most hated player in the game, in your mind.
      You must play a very small chunk of Eve, or just spend all your days on forums.

      Delete
    2. I spend a lot of time on the forums... I'm currently 'winning' EVE, as they say, but I like to stay up to date on what's happening.

      I don't hate you at all Dinsdale (even if a lot of your posts make me despair at my dwindling supply of tinfoil), but yeah, if some douche had scratched your name out, I wouldn't have been shocked, as it were...

      And I'd still have wanted them *temp* banned for it. It's a shitty thing to do, but not 'unforgivable', in my book at least...

      -- Hiram Alexander.

      Delete
    3. ...and just for the sake of clarity...

      I don't think you're the 3rd most hated player in EVE - not by a long shot...

      Just the 3rd name most likely to face a minor act of vandalism.

      Delete
    4. Erotica 1's name is not on the monument. I checked. But yes, if CCP had seen fit to include him on the monument and had someone defaced that name, my reaction would have been the same.

      Except I would have added another sentence about irony.

      Delete
    5. More likely Erotica 1's account is on the monument, but Erotica 1 was not the char with the highest SP on it.

      Delete
  22. "People will stop attacking the victim of this on our forums. It's not funny, it's not clever. Take your rumor mongering and personal attacks away from our community. If you choose not to, you'll be removed from the community, permanently. It's a simple as that. We will not tolerate victimization." - CCP Falcon

    This is utterly laughable, since it happens all of the time on the forums and CCP does nothing to curb it - in fact, they have been encouraging it.

    In this incident, as far as I've heard, no one made any RL attack on the actual player who subs the toon known as "Xenuria". No DIAFs, no threats of to hunt him or his family down, etc. If anything, he's probably welcoming the meta-game attention. I know that I would be doing so, in his shoes. Hell, he's the only one whose name really stands out now on the monument.

    The real crime that was committed was vandalism, and it would have been the same crime if someone had intentionally scratched the sidewalk next to the monument.

    I think CCP is only pissed because this monument thing was an expensive publicity stunt, now spoiled by one of their own players and Fanfest attendees - which makes CCP look pretty stupid.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. CCP's attitude on making fun of victims is changing slowly over time. For the better.

      Delete
    2. @Jester - unfortunately, far, far too slowly. As you know, we're seeing more incidents in the meta-game of victimization of players, not less.

      It is almost a standard policy with many corps to scam new players when they try to join, and then make fun of their "stupidity" in public. This type of behavior, and CCP's tolerance (verging on encouragement) of it, is no more admirable than vandalism.

      Delete
    3. To an extent, I agree with you. That said, the EVE universe has always been such that players can do this to other players. But from time to time, devs jump in too... and that is striking me as increasingly uncool.

      Delete
  23. I wonder what CCP's response would have been if we had taken high-quality gold paint and used it to highlight the names of all of the Goonswarm members?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You take blue color for that and include the rest of the CFC ;-)

      Delete
  24. I have tried quite hard to understand why most people view this act as reprehensible. There must be a good reason, as apparently I'm the only one who doesn't get it. The reaction seems similar to if a religious icon had been defaced, or a memorial to dead soldiers, or something of that sort. As this is a monument with a list of characters from a computer game, I'm struggling to understand the outrage.

    I'm not in favour of damaging things, but I don't understand why this is different to scratching the timetable at a bus stop. What am I missing?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is no different from scratching the timetable at a bus stop. Both acts are against the law (vandalism).

      However, there is no justification for a ban - temp or perma. This act isn't specifically covered as a violation of the EULA, so CCP would only be exercising their right, as the owners of EVE Online, to boot any player from the game, with or without just cause.

      What makes it funny, though, is that the banned player would have just cause to demand a refund of any unused game time.

      Delete
    2. There is the minor detail that this is a large, commissioned work of art from a major sculptor, presented to the city by a company that is an alarmingly large fraction of the total Icelandic economy all by itself.

      It's not a bus stop. And unlike the schedule on the bus stop, the vandalism targeted an individual player, effectively saying that he had no place among the other players. That has nothing to do with spaceships. That's personal. It's inappropriate on the merits, and then there's the additional fact that someone defaced a major piece of art to do it.

      Delete
    3. It's reprehensible for three reasons. Pick the one you like:

      1. It's clearly a symbolic attack on an EVE player outside of game. As I've said many times, that's disgusting. Attacking other EVE players in-game is perfectly fine but out of game, we're supposed to be a community.

      2. It's vandalism of an EVE player memorial and artistic statuary, including the names of dead EVE players. Are we not better people than we feel the need to deface public art and public memorials?

      3. It does nothing except cost CCP money, time, and cycles to address the juvenile behavior of their players to the gaming press and to repair the monument (if the perpetrator isn't caught).

      Delete
    4. @Jester:

      "1. It's clearly a symbolic attack on an EVE player outside of game. As I've said many times, that's disgusting. Attacking other EVE players in-game is perfectly fine but out of game, we're supposed to be a community."

      You mean it is possible to build a community out of people who are victimized systematically and people who victimize others systematically?

      That's an interesting take on abusive behavior...

      Delete
    5. I agree and disagree

      the perp should get to pay for the restoration of the plate ... the full cost
      the perp should then be named and shamed to that degree that we know it will not happen again..


      same goes to the guy who stole the Flag on top of CCP hq ....
      pay for the full cost of reinstalling a new one ... CCP even know who he is ...


      As soon as there is a IRL cost involved its no longer fun and game

      Delete
    6. @ Jester : It does nothing except cost CCP money, time, and cycles to address the juvenile behavior of their players to the gaming press and to repair the monument (if the perpetrator isn't caught).

      As opposed to the money, time and cycles to have the damn thing built in the first place, when what happened was predicted by so many?

      I think this monument's legacy will be the lasting reminder that Hilmar's hubris knows no bounds, and that the meta-game of Eve means more to many players than the game itself.

      Because, frankly, this is just another form of the meta-game, albeit an ugly one.

      Delete
    7. @Jester

      I have to correct your point #2. The monument does not bear the names of any EVE players, living or dead. It bears the names of fictional characters in a computer game, some of which were formerly controlled by deceased persons. We are not our avatars. Especially when you consider the behavior that EVE is known for, to claim we are the characters we play is a serious insult and diminishes our value as human beings.

      Delete
    8. "including the names of dead EVE players."
      i think you of all should know better that these are not names of eve players but names of characters in a videogame - which are played by eve players.
      also, i really do not understand the importance of being dead.

      Delete
    9. I think that what Mittens did at Fanfest was much more reprehensible, and yet CCP let that slide with just a slap on the wrist.

      Delete
  25. Has really no one else considered that the perp might be xenuria himself? It would kinda fit his style of trolling..

    ReplyDelete
  26. Seeing people who will gleefully undo years of in-game work of fellow players and boast about it get super cereal and defensive whenever something EVE-related happens in the real world is always a thing to behold.

    Oh, someone spent several months building a corporation that you ruined in week by wardeccing then harassing them until almost everyone left? Go you! Sandbox mate! HTFU! Here's an article on TMC!

    Someone scratched a player's name on a stupid entitled monument about a crappy niche game? Oh my god! Disgusting! Outrage! That's almost rape! Ban them and everyone in their contact list!

    I think this hypocrisy steems from the fact that it's a reminder. A reminder that sometimes, your in-game actions can have consequences. And that makes a lot of people who like to hide behind their avatars very confused, angry and afraid, and they instantly hop on the moral high ground that "what happens in the game must stay in the game".

    Pathetic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Right, and I'm sure that "But he did 'so-and-so' to me in a video game Your Honor" will work oh so well in court as a defense when something a lot worse happens over something that happened in-game.

      In-game actions have in-game consequences dude. They aren't meant to have IRL consequences, game companies make that very clear, the law makes that clear.

      Delete
    2. In case of EVE, in-game actions have no in-game consequences. But that's not even the point. The point is that there is a no magic line between "real world" and "EVE". EVE is a game that exists in the real world. The players exist in the real world. When you blow up someone's ship in EVE, you affect another human being in the real world. Pretending that being an asshole in the game is fine "because it's just a game" is shortsighted at best, and sad attempts at making up excuses at worst.

      Delete
    3. @Anon 1:19

      Sure there are in-game consequences when other players decide to get retribution for something. That is what EVE is about, someone wrongs you, you take the action necessary to make them pay in-game. However, you won't see me acting the asshole, it's not in my nature.

      Obviously the players exist in the real world ya ninny, however, EVE is just pixels on a screen. Apparently some people can't make that distinction, that an attack on their stuff in-game is just as real as an attack on their physical possessions.

      So, if I apply your logic to a hypothetical situation, then if I blew up a ship or two of yours, that would validate you jumping me at Fanfest and beating me up? Wonder how your defense would sound in court.

      Delete
    4. The actions you have to take are nearly never ingame alone, because that is how the meta works, with alts, shell corps, etc

      Players use out of game mechanics to play you, so you have to use anyway out of game means. Be it the spy game or counter intelligence, heck even to just catch the gankers main who ganked your freighter in Perimeter,
      Its only logical because that is how the game is build.

      But even if you assume ingame consequences are happening quite often, you have to acknowledge that they are rather small. The Bloodbath of B-R5RB is considered a huge thing, but with over 7000 players involved in the battle and the size of power blocks involved the impact of a 24 hour battle is resource wise rather small. IIRC less than a hour of farming for all alliance members involved on the isk war, less time to farm up loses than the actually battle took for all involved players and only several weeks titan production on the industry game. That are the consequences of the biggest fight of eve history. Everyone has to farm up one extra hour that month?

      And Jester speculated that such a fight will never happen again because people will not willing to risk that much. ;-)

      Delete
    5. 7000 ACCOUNTS, not players. Huge difference.

      Delete
  27. There's a higher number of assholes per capita in Eve than probably any other game out there and with Eve players' meta track record how could anyone be surprised this happened? Exactly what world are you living in?? There were even multiple attempts, BIG surprise, by a very small number of the ~160,000 player base.

    In the end, Hilmar's little display of ego to the world got scratch. HTFU or go back to WOW. Isn't that the mantra of the big, bad Eve players??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. One of the posts I was thinking about for the EVE community series I talked about a few weeks past was a Garth post called "Asshole quotient". I eventually decided not to publish it because it went too far even for Garth.

      Delete
    2. Too bad. I'd like to see that.

      Delete
  28. Had anyone I play with admitted to doing this and provided proof, I'd have gone straight to CCP with the information. Thankfully I don't play with idiots who don't understand the concept of EvE being a game played for fun.

    Find who did it, take legal action & get monetary compensation for fixing their vandalism and then ban them from EvE. That is what I hope happens.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. +1 to Jamie, you get what EVE is about.

      Delete
  29. The way I see is that our subscription money paid for the monument and it will be our subscription money that is used to repair it. So, unless CCP put something in the EULA to say otherwise, it is a fair target in the meta-game, that CCP encourages us to play.

    CCP devs actively encouraged Fanfest attendees to get rowdy, drink up until you are s**tfaced - then, follows up by letting them get away with putting stickers on the monument, stealing a flag, showing up drunk for a Fanfest session and making socially inappropriate remarks, etc. Costs money to spend time to discuss & deal with these issues, too.

    So, someone scratched up the name of a toon on a plate. No one was hurt, no one was physically threatened. Wasn't even the RL name of a player. No one says that CCP even has to replace the plate, so there doesn't need to be a cost associated with this act - just ignore it and move on.

    Seems that CCP is the one doing the whining now....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. While I do not condone vandalism, I am inclined to agree that this is mostly butthurt whinage from CCP. They would have been just as upset if someone had scratched out their own character's name.

      The monument is nothing but a marketing stunt, and, quite frankly, I would have preferred to see that money spent on additional minor game fixes & features. Hopefully, CCP will not waste more money getting the damn thing repaired.

      Delete
    2. I also do not generally approve of vandalism, but I have to admit that I'm enjoying CCP's "butthurt whinage".

      They have been f**king with high-sec players who aren't interested in PVP for years now, not listening to any of our complaints and telling us to HTFU. Threatening to unsub my 3 accounts doesn't mean jack to CCP, so they laugh and expect me to take it or quit.

      CCP has been soliciting anti-social behavior types to play the game, and now they finally took one in the ass from one of their beloved players. Your turn to HTFU, CCP.

      Delete
  30. CCP found the criminals:

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342705

    Hey, Jester, check pg 8:

    Sabriz Adoudel : "Definitely do not name them. We all saw the threats of RL violence made toward Erotica 1 after Ripard's witchhunt. This would probably be worse... "

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Don´t you have to commit a crime to be a criminal? ;-)
      Vandalism is not a crime, just like getting a parking ticked won´t make you an evil criminal. ;-)

      Delete
    2. @Tenris - I don't know where you live, but in Iceland, vandalism is a crime.

      Delete
    3. So they put their school children in jail on regular base?
      And the city of Reykjavik is ruled by crime lords who fool the police constantly and color the city as they please?

      Vandalism should be in most cases even in Island a petty offence. Just like parking tickets. And this should be a parking ticket thing, the damage is minimal.

      Sure, step over the line and create a damage above a certain threshold and you actually might end up with an actual crime, so I concede that vandalism can be a crime in the extreme cases.

      Delete
    4. @Tenris - you don't know much about anything do you?

      If a minor commits a crime, the legal guardian is held responsible in most cases. In a few rare cases, depending on the severity of the crime, the minor may be incarcerated.

      There are no crime lords in Reykjavik.

      Vandalism and parking violations are not similar. Vandalism damages property, which costs money to repair and replace - often substantial amounts of money. Parking violations rarely involve property damage; however, in the cases where a violation may result in property damage, the violator may be charged with additional offenses.

      There is no "damage threshold", when breaking the law. The only "thresholds" involve the penalty. Depending on the severity, the penalty may range from a fine, public service, and/or jail time.

      Delete

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