Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Monday, July 18, 2011

Quote of the Week: Global warming solution

The other day, I snarked a bit about CSM members advocating the removal of ABC minerals from C1 and C2 wormholes.  Failheap has also picked up the discussion, which was proceeding in pretty much the same direction as my blog post, ie., "It'd be nice if CSM members kept their mouths shut about things they know nothing about."  Then Meissa Anuntheil, CSM-for-life, decided to jump into the discussion.

And his response has got to be the longest post Meissa has ever made about any subject, on any forum.

In the post, he reveals himself as the champion for the "remove it" position.  Among other things, he also states that he believes getting ABC out of a C2 using an Orca is "trivial."  Speaking as someone who's done it, my response is "Oh?  Try it."  But in short, Meissa's main argument around this seems to be that getting even one unit of arkonor out of a class 2 wormhole is too much, further reduces the demand for 0.0 mining, and that all such minerals should be provided from 0.0 sources. 

Meissa is a 0.0 miner and industrialist, but I'm sure that doesn't influence his opinion on this matter in the slightest, nope.

Needless to say, this kicks off a firey back-and-forth argument on the matter, but after correctly characterizing the CSM's reaction on this as "knee jerk", Kate Yeats destroys Meissa's argument in one sentence, then adds a bonus double-helping of snark (which, as always, I approve of ;-) ):
CSM's suggestion for combating global warming is to sew up everyone's asshole because they fart methane and that contributes, right? 
Bonus is it sounds like it'd effectively silence certain CSM members.

If you're interested in the discussion, you can pick it up from Meissa's post.  It goes on for about three pages before turning to other topics.


  1. I actually tweeted at Kate Yeats and congratulated him (her?) for calling out the CSM on their stupidity. Before any changes whatsoever are made to wormholes, we need to deal with botting first. Banning 10 bots will probably account for all the ABC that wormholers could ever mine.

  2. Yes, Rooks & Kings those famous nullsec carebears...

  3. And a bit more seriously.

    To quote your champion:

    WH Miner
    1) Probe hi-sec to find c1/c2
    2) Find WH occupied, repeat #1 until you find a vacant hole
    3) Scan WH for Gravs, find none, repeat #1-2 until you find one
    4) Back to high-sec, dock, grab combat ship
    5) Clear site
    6) Back to high-sec, dock, grab mining ship, mine ABCs
    7) Let paranoia run rampant as you constantly ping d-scan looking for probes/ships and hope no-one camps hole to grab your hauler.

    0.0 Miner
    1) Undock, warp to belt
    2) Keep an eye on intel channels while you read up on forums
    3) Dock whenever someone is in local

    What about packing up all that high-density ore in jump freighters and getting it back to hisec? Thats the part that hurts the market, not the ease of mining. Treating nullsec moneymaking as a 3-step process is like saying WH Mining is just "clear the sleepers, mine the ore, bring it out," Technically true, but totally disingenuous in the context its portrayed.

  4. @mad: Yeah, there was a bit of derp on both sides of that argument, which is why I didn't mention it.

    You could just as easily correctly point out that the vast, vast majority of ABC that comes out of null-sec comes out on JFs, often only requiring one or two jumps. How this is much higher risk than jumping Orcas through one or two WHs is not something that Meissa or Mittens apparently cared to explain.

  5. Oh, and obviously R&K as a whole are not null-sec care-bears, but Meissa himself is. He's made that extremely clear on many occasions in many public forums.

  6. I find two things extremely amusing:

    1. That the CSM is vehemently protecting their interests in such a blatant matter that it crystal clear they see everything else as the problem instead of what's going on in their own back yard (RMT botting).

    2. As I explained in my blog, typical wormhole corporations save that ore for weeks and months, refine it at a 25% loss due to POS mechanics, then bring it out when they finally get a good exit once a week or month whenever that comes. Then we "dump" it on the nearest trade market which spikes prices down due to decreased demand. However spikes do not make the entire market crash, just the local market and only for a short period of time. Its the bots in Null sec that manage to bring out more and more and more ore with frightening efficiency and regularity that are driving the global prices down for good.

    The current CSM members (Melissa especially) are either blindly driving their own agenda or ignorant and willing to call in change on something they don't understand at all. Personally, I don't know which is worse.

  7. Jester, Moving Jump Freighters has become a LOT more complicated with the JB nerf. If a system isn't cynojammed you may not be the only person going in, and if it is and you are using jump bridges you still have to pass through a gate to move on. Of course they can also move it compressed.

    I agree that taking ABC out of WHs is silly, especially with a complete lack of math to support it, but my reason is just that, the complete lack of math. A well secured class 1 or class 2 wormhole seems to me to be a far more likely source of masses of ABC on the market than daytrippers. However people who have invested a lot of time in setting up operations in a WH, especially the MORE EASILY ACCESSABLE AND ATTACKED C1 and C2s have every right to expect some good income sources.

    I do think that by letting the argument be framed the way it is in that thread you guys are fighting a losing battle, you aren't saying "Prove its actually hurting anyone" you are saying "Our isk is harder earned than yours," and its a "and nobody cared" argument.

  8. @mad: keep in mind, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm out of 0.0, and I haven't lived in a WH in more than a year. I just think the risk-reward comparison that's happening here is silly, particularly given that the amount of ABC in C1/C2s pales in comparison to an upgraded 0.0 system.

    @Shadai: well said.

  9. Actually, the ABC in a C1 and C2 wormhole are usually restricted to a single rock each per site - truly miniscule amounts.

  10. The next argument the CSM will use is that ABC extraction from WHs is "diffuse" so it's not that there's a lot of it per site, but that "everyone" is doing it. Just like "everyone" in nullsec is running mining or ratting bots.

    As for the argument about "why are they doing it if it isn't profitable"? Well, let's just put this out there: perhaps when you are in a wormhole and you've farmed all your sites and you don't have everyone online to safely head out to your linked WHs, the only thing you can do while you are by yourself is mine, while spamming d-scan or having your probing alt keep an eye on those signatures to make sure one doesn't switch from being your usual static to being a K162.

    And that's without even bringing up the total lack of comprehension that these folks have when talking about using Hulk/Covetor or Orca to haul ore out of a C1. You can't fit a hulk in a C1, it's retriever or go home. But apparently suggesting that a fair comparison for "daytripper miners" is to contrast a hisec Hulk with Orca mining Pyrox versus "daytripper miner" using the biggest mining ship they can get into a C1 hole is not worth responding to?

    And these are the same people who say that "miners don't contribute shit" to nullsec alliances? Perhaps the reason there is no industry in nullsec is because "miners don't contribute shit" and thus are treated as parasites and are not exactly welcomed with open arms?

    The first step for improving the industrialisation of nullsec is for nullsec alliances to treat industrialists as real people. Having better refineries and assembly lines won't count for anything if miners are persecuted out of the alliances.


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