Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Friday, October 28, 2011

Happy medium

And now an important message from Jester's evil twin, Garth.  The opinions of Garth are not the opinions of Jester (unless they are).

Hey!  You!  Asshole!

Yes, you knew I was talking to you, didn't you?  Because you're an EVE player.  More to the point, you're a long-time bitter-vet "been playing since beta" EVE player.  Know what?  The rest of us don't give a shit about your opinions about how hard EVE should be to learn.  This comes out in particular every time someone like Jester proposes simplifying this game in some way and making it a tiny bit easier for newbies to understand.  Any time anybody says something like this, you assholes start carping about how "I had to learn how the sandbox worked, and it was fucking hard.  So should the new guys.  If they can't learn it, they should GTFO."

You know what?  It's elitist shit like this that is strangling this game.  Have you looked at the PCU count lately?  Even more than that, though, you remind me of a cliché: the old dad saying that there weren't any new-fangled school-busses when they went to school.  Oh no.  They walked to school!  In the snow!  Uphill!  Both ways!  And so should you!

You're a cliché and you're pathetic.

CCP had about five minutes where they thought this would be a good recruiting strategy for new players, then they wised up and realized how idiotic that approach is.  FFS, even the phrase "EVE is hard" has 212 million links on Google.  And some of you assholes think that EVE isn't hard enough.  Know what I think about this opinion?

You know what?  I'd just as soon not shoot at the same 50 guys in the same eight alliances for the rest of my EVE career, thanks.  I'd like to get some new blood in here, and if removing unnecessary difficulty from the game is how to do it, then guess what: that's what should be done.  And you assholes that think EVE should be hard just for the sake of being hard because it's always been hard can go screw yourselves.

That said... hey!  You!  Asshole!

No, not you assholes.  You other assholes.  You assholes that get all whiny when your ship gets blown up.  You assholes who have somehow convinced fucking programmer Vikings that maybe their game makes space a little bit too unsafe.

You know what?  Space is supposed to be unsafe, so maybe you should just shut your mouths and HTFU.  "Q" told you this all the way back in Star Trek: The Next Generation, and if you didn't believe him, a guy named Gus Grissom is at the door and wants to explain it to you.  Just because I think that maybe this game should be made a little bit easier for newbies to understand doesn't mean I'm gonna advocate putting training wheels on your Tempest or making your Hulk gank-proof.  If you do seriously dumb shit in this game, not only are you gonna get blown up, but you deserve to get blown up.  Hopefully, it'll teach you not to do something quite so dumb the next time.  I've had ships ganked.  I've been podded in expensive implants.

Know what I didn't do?  I didn't whine on the forums that the mean man hurt me.  I learned from the experience.  Maybe you should try it.

Garth out!

The preceding has been an important message from Jester's evil twin, Garth.  The management apologizes to any and all whom Garth may have offended.  It takes a rare gift to piss off both bitter-vets and carebears at the same time.


  1. "No, not you assholes. You other assholes. You assholes that get all whiny when your ship gets blown up. You assholes who have somehow convinced fucking programmer Vikings that maybe their game makes space a little bit too unsafe."


  2. eve isn't hard. It has a bad interface. Thats it basically. It is stuck with the windows 3.1 mentality. Ship navigation is a worst case scenario. Popup windows everywhere. No real in-flight hud, just to mention a few.

  3. So, EVE should be exactly as hard as you want it to be, UND NOT VUN JOT MORE?

  4. The carebear assholes are just the alts of the bittervet assholes, so its all just assholes.

  5. What about those assholes who are not bitter vets or whiny carebears, and just trying to have some fun in the game and give up from boredom? Hours of boring activities just to get it all blown up in 1 minute? What can Garth say about that? Besides the obvious: go out and join a corp. Sorry no time for meta-games.

  6. ^ Those assholes fall under the 'whiny carebear' category, methinks.

    That said, and talking to Garth now, I agree with your sentiments in full, good sir. If only CCP thought the same...

  7. I think one of the biggest difficulty barriers for beginning players is a simple lack of guidance- brand new players tend to see all of the different things they could be doing in EVE and try to do them in small samples, training random skills to do random things presented in the early tutorials...then the same player joins a corp a couple weeks later and finds out he needs to focus on a career path, but cannot power level skills, so then the player feels "stuck" with a bunch of skills that are useless, and a bunch of idle time to waste until they get some proper skills to fly with.

    I've seen this many times dealing with new recruits in my corp or potential recruits- since they don't have enough guidance early on, they fall into a trap of feeling useless until "x" amount of time passes- and meanwhile players that know what they are doing can make a new character and be a useful helper alt or even have a viable combat toon in a week.

    They maybe even wouldn't need to overhaul the tutorial system that much, just something to reinforce that new players should be choosing ONE skill path and sticking to it to get the best results might knock down a lot of the games fabled difficulty.

  8. "Hours of boring activities just to get it all blown up in 1 minute?"


    That falls under "you're doing it wrong".

    There is nothing in this game that needs you to do boring activities for hours on end. Nothing. Having said that, I hate it when I'm doing my thing for ISK and I get popped because I was stupid in someway. You know, either not paying attention or being idiotic by flying something where its not a good idea.

    But getting caught for doing something I know is ill advised, or doing something poorly and getting caught out is necessary. The game should not be designed to protect you from the stupidity of your own intentional decisions.

    Sitting in an ice field for hours on end, if you find it boring, you're doing it wrong.

    Get upset when you fly or t1 industrial toward Jita full of sleeper loot and get popped? You're doing it wrong! (I have done this w/ 90 melted nanoribbons).

    No time for meta-games? I don't do meta-games. I'm in a corp. Its not a magic shield. I don't converse with Mittens over null sec development. Hell, some nights I don't speak to my corpies.

    Sounds like you were playing EVE in a way guaranteed to end in tears, and it did. Maybe you beat the odds for weeks/months. Maybe sneaking into lowsec for nice PI sounded good and worked for months. Maybe chatting and trolling forums while your mack sliced ice seemed a good idea - just before that ganker appeared on dscan 30 seconds before he targetted you. Maybe you got angry at the guy stealing from your wrecks and you discovered suddenly ninjas?

    I have done those things. I have got blown up, podded, embarrased and called out. I've lost faction fittings and faction boats. I've raged in local and laughed sheepishly. The end result is I don't do those things anymore (much). Short cuts make for long delays. Min/maxing is risky - balance the damn risk. Just because your hulk works so much better with mining upgrades doesn't mean those are the best use for your low slots.

    Do I think that some aspects of EVE could be eliminated to make the game easier for new folks? Yes. Do I think attributes should be one of those things? No, I do not. Do I think the newbie experience could be better? Yes. do I know how? No.

    Do I think EVE is too easy? NO ! Do I think EVE is too hard? No! Do I think some parts of EVE are too hard when you are just starting out? YES. but just because advanced stuff is hard doesn't mean new folks should be in to it.

    Pardon me, but setting attributes to optimize training rate is a min/max exercise and is advanced stuff. Removing it for newbies because they don't understand the implications of what they are doing is stupid. Just tell them to leave those settings alone until they understand. NOBODY WHO IS A NEWBIE SHOULD PLAYING WITH MIN/MAXING SKILLS.

    Skill training - its not a godsdamn race.

    While I am in favour of making entry into EVE easier for new players, I have no truck with folks who want to remove the finer/trickier/nuanced parts of the game to achieve this. Maybe EVE should start out with 'you must have 5 M SP before you can fiddle with this shit' messages. But again, EVE should not EVER, EVER, protect you from your stupid intentional errors of judgement. Windows that pop up and say "whoa - this gate leads to lowsec, you sure you want to go this way" is good. You can override it with an intentional decision. It protects the inexperienced and can be turned off for other folks. This is perfect.

    My 2 ISK rant of the day.

  9. I like Jester better.... lol.

    I know what you really want here, but you do realize that making the game easier will just attract more of the second class of a**holes, right? I think that is why the first class of a**holes disagrees with making the game simpler to play.

    Many (and I'm not saying "all") of the players who whine about "how difficult the game is" are the same ones who whine about "space should be safer". They also use the same excuse about attracting new players: "make the game easier and safer, and you'll get more new players to stay".

    Which is sadly true.

    Most trial players quit after getting griefed by experienced players in the first couple of days. First minute, they flip a can or wreck - perhaps accidentally, or because they are confused by the UI, or because some pirate switched their jetcan - but, certainly without paying much attention to what's going on around them. Or, they wander off into low sec. Every new player does one or the other - guaranteed. Second minute, they are floating in space, sans ship, and being rudely mocked at in local. Third minute, they log off and never log on again. Fourth minute, they are telling their friends how stupid the game is and how only a bunch of a**holes play this game.

    But, up to you. Can't have it both ways. You can have a smaller number of tenatious, thicker-skinned, intelligent (relatively speaking, ofc) PvP players, or a buttload of whining, thin-skinned, stupid BIS (barbie-in-space) players. WoW has a lot more players 'cause it is easier and safer.

  10. Anon 12:37

    Hear! Hear! I get so bored with the carebears=whiny I'd just like to play the game I'm not looking to make hoards of isk I'd just like to mine ice for my corp's pos and not worry about nullsec gankers who are bored with their life...sure EVE is dangerous but hisec does have the rule of law...as inefective as Concord is...and no there are no tears or whine here (I'm all out of cheese and crackers) cause I've mined Gallente ice and have yet to lose a ship to Goonfire

  11. Couldn't agree more. But most importantly, what are your suggestions to fix it?

  12. To anonymous #3:

    You don't need to play "meta-games" in every corp. You just don't. But hey, don't believe me, I'm one of those bittervet types.

    If you are having fun in EVE mining, or ice mining, or running missions (alone) then you really have a low threshold of fun. I'm sorry, I can't help you because if you had "real" fun in EVE it might cause you to have a heart attack from the adrenaline rush, or choke on your microphone laughing at a corp-mate's joke you heard on comms - because the real fun in EVE isn't found watching mining lasers, or shooting red crosses.

  13. You're simultaneously asking for game development to be made to be friendly to the casual and risk adverse players, whilst railing against the impact said risk averse players have on the game.

    If game development heads in the direction you want here, all that happens is that you increase the number of casual (which is good) and risk averse (which is bad) players and make CCP more dependant on their income. If you like a game that embraces risk, diluting the percentage of players that share your preferred game style is not going to end well for you...

    It is possible to fix existing features to make them easier, as well as bring in new features that are easy to use whilst not pandering to the risk averse. But that's a conscious game design decision. Simply making the game easier without considering that aspect will just leave you complaining even more about shooting the same players over and over, 'cause the new players will be petitioning you just for locking them up.

  14. "I knew it I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes!" - Darth Helmet

  15. @ Anon #3

    Then go play some other game you twat. Eve is whatever you want it to be. Which means if other people want to gank your shit, they can and will. Deal with it or GTFO

  16. @ALL
    For the record I have never been ganked, never mined ice, or PvPed in general. I have tried to get into EvE 3 times already and still cannot get over the entire paranoia to actually talk to anyone in the game.
    Everyone says:
    "Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose"
    "Go PvP in low-sec"
    "Do not use auto-pilot"
    "Do not trust anyone"
    "You are doing it wrong"
    "Blah, blah, shrugged"

    I can do level 4s, and tried everything from mining to trading to hauling to exploring, and as much as i love the game concepts, the freaking paranoia about everything is not helping me to make friends or even having desire to join any corp. The game is not difficult to grasp, i do much more complicated things in RL, the entire community of self proclaimed psychopaths who pretend to be scammers or pirates is just not what I envision a game about space should be all about. Damn, this game is so much fun to read about on internet and so much more boring to play, because if you just follow common sense and do everything carefully then nothing really happens to you.

    If I do not follow the common sense, throw caution to the wind, then i will be just providing fun for others instead. Either that or join some corp to be their pawn in whatever.Honestly if there was a way to sign up with Concord I would in a heart beat, all those player run null sec/low sec "warlords" do not any confidence in me at all, because I am not in a business to ruin anyone's day, which everyone seems to be obsessed about. Do not want to be the sheep or the wolf, just play.

  17. It has been said that the ideal for EVE is that it should be like chess: minutes to learn, a lifetime to master. Remember, guys: the biggest challenge in EVE is the other players, not the game itself!

  18. Fuck yea America!

    Anyway, totally agree with both sides of the coin. This is exactly what happened with WoW. Blizzard listened to too many of the whiny... 'people, and 'dumbed' the game down too far.

    Suggestions to Fix:
    1) Kill all assholes.
    2) Kill all other assholes.
    3) Let the middle assholes play.
    4) Profit.

    PS: Garth is awesome.

  19. +5 to awesome for pony's.

    Have to say, Garth is kinda cool. I like his style and his message.
    Making EVE easier to understand does not have to equal making EVE safer. Perhaps some of the bittervets are making that mistake but just because something is easy to understand does not have to take away from its depth or complexity.

  20. easy is not the same as simple. Make the game vast in options, simple to operate and let the players and comunity deside the dificulty of survifing.

  21. @SW: The REAL fun in EVE... is whatever is fun for each player. It's nice you don't find mining or mission-running fun, but that doesn't mean others are required to hold to your view.

    To be fair, though, from a lot of the comments of "seasoned" players I've read across multiple blogs and posts, apparently what CCP desperately needs to do is to put a bittervet PVP-only filter at login so that the software will automagically prevent anyone who doesn't want to hardcore PvP from creating characters. Oh, and a search program to systematically hunt down and force-biomass all existing non-hardcore PvP characters.

    Then we'll have a Pure EVE, free from all those pesky bear-types.

    Solidly hardcore.

    With about 20 players.

    Seriously, is it a *requirement* that we piss in our own front yard on a daily basis? Is my having fun doing things in EVE that you don't find fun somehow ruining your game?

    *This* attitude is the biggest obstacle the game has to attracting and keeping the right sort of new player.


Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.