Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Monday, March 5, 2012

Censored End-game Quote of the Week

Hm, well, I have a link for this one, but it's been censored, so you'll have to trust me when I say the following exchange took place.  Let's start with the quote, then I'll talk context.  Failheap Challenge has an occasionally used Marketplace section intended for FHC members to sell the more expensive items in EVE to other FHC members before listing them in the public EVE-O Sell Orders forum.  Expensive can occasionally mean faction mods and the like (usually in large quantities), but usually means boosters in large quantities, high SP characters, shiny T3 ships, officer mods, and the occasional super-cap.

Last week, Snake listed a pile of officer mods, three characters, and two travel-fit Aeons.  The two Aeons were listed for 15 billion ISK each, a bit below the standard offer price on the EVE-O forums.  Another player, Zeekar, asked if there would be a further discount for both, and was told by a third party that "15b for Aeon with FBs and trimarks is a pretty bro price."  This caused LordsServant to say:
Taking two dedicated titan support ships off someone's hands is also pretty bro. Aeon's are generally just RR for titans that doesn't instapop to maelstroms/drakes. Hardly anyone uses caps/supers vs Raiden, so u generally dont do much in an SC.

Generally not worth the isk unless you have plenty of spare chars and isk to burn (like Zeekar and/or myself does, tho I'd bet they're going for corpies rather than personal useage) =D

OK, I'll say it here: what I did next was wrong, and for doing it, I apologize to the FHC admins.  Commentary doesn't have any business on the FHC Marketplace section (though I'm not sure where else it should have gone).  But I'm afraid your humble moderator went off a bit anyway.  I don't remember exactly what I posted, but the gist of it was something like "Aeons are just big Guardians, are they?  That's all they're good for?  Is that what super-caps in this game have come to?  The fact that a ship that most EVE players will never be able to afford has already fallen into being regarded as 'not worth the ISK'?  In Rote Kapelle, Aeons aren't support ships.  When we use them at all, we tend to regard them as 'a key component of our super-cap arm'."

Helen responded (and again, the post was deleted, so all I have is the gist) that if I and the rest of Rote Kapelle wasn't so "bad", maybe we'd have lots of super-caps too.

The whole exchange was then deleted by an FHC admin, which is their standard practice when a discussion goes too far off-topic.  This post isn't about that.  Maybe I'll have more to say about this practice later.

Ripard passed 70m skill points over the weekend.  My other combat main is approaching 65.  That means I'm well within the end-game for EVE Online.  Yet, I do not own any super-caps, and only two true capital ships (both carriers, one combat-fit, one logistics-fit; I lost my dread in the Rote dread fight a couple of weeks back).  And I have to admit, the whole exchange just put me off the idea of ever owning a super-cap.

Guess that just makes me permanently "bad".  And searching for some other end-game in EVE.


  1. I'm not sure what it is you took offense to in the original thread (before Helen besmirched Rote's honour). Supercarriers have a strong niche role, but they're not general purpose combat ships. They're for shooting structures, shooting other caps, or being guardians with a fuckton of HP. Guardians with a fuckton of HP are pretty awesome though, so nobody need be offended by the title.

    I think the concept of "endgame" in eve needs to be looked at differently than other MMOs. You can't look at a certain ship or activity as the endgame in a sandbox like eve.

    Hell, I've got four characters with over 100m sp and I don't have any supercaps either. Nothing to be ashamed of.

  2. I've never wanted to own a super. Only reason I decided to want a carrier was for use as a giant space briefcase. They're far too much work with far too little use other than to scare off subcaps or count in a statistic of why an area should/shouldn't be invaded. Or enlarge your epeen, which has never interested me either.

  3. Since I've only been playing for about a year my experience with this sort of thing is limited. However, I will say that because EVE is about how you play and not what is dictated by either the devs or other players (if you decide to seclude yourself!), other ppl thinking you are "bad" because you don't fit their description of a 70mil sp pilot then... sounds like WoW and Gearscore xD

    I just know someone is gonna come along and kill me for making the comparison!

  4. Ships are just tools, so what if someone else thinks they arent worth it.
    Go out and prove them wrong.
    Your behaviour is just silly just because someone is having a bad day and pissing in the pool you go down on him and throw a fit.
    I think its time that Garth gets to say a few words about this.

    Btw there is no endgame in EvE. Didnt you get the memo?

  5. Don't worry about it.

    In truth, super caps are relatively useless for your main toon(s), since you can't dock the silly things and you need to perma-park a toon in it.

    If you really want to fly super caps, then train up (or buy) an alt, which you don't mind leaving installed in the ship... forever.

  6. I thought the end game of Eve was living in 0.0 and participating in PVP. Does that require super-caps? If supers are likened to carriers in the modern navy wouldn't there be a requirement for all kinds of support ships? So the end game could possibly be a rep support carrier that's out there supporting the fight, or maybe a HIC/bubble support, or perhaps just plain old logi sitting there repping the battlewagons.

    In a game that brags about how diverse it's supposed to be I'm rather amazed at the people that try to pigeon hole everyone into thinking that you ain't cool if you don't have a super.

    Ah the glory of high school all over again.

  7. "Guess that just makes me permanently "bad"."

    Yup. Terrible. Honestly, you need to own a whole supercap blob all by yourself before you can even be considered sorta good.

    And Rote is shit too, just shit. Definitely not one of the strongest alliances in Syndicate, and one of my favorite opponents. Nope. Not enough titanzlol to make a real alliance. Need to up your game. And make sure you never go anywhere ever again without at least 300 supercaps on batphone.

    Honestly, fuck supers and the people that fly them. Never going to train for one myself. Aside from the fact that they'll probably be utter shit by the time i got in one, i'm pretty sure that just undocking a super would instantly turn me into an ultra-risk-averse elitist faggot.

  8. I read that thread before it was deleted, and I tihnk you have entirely the wrong idea.

    You arced up about supercarriers being 'not worth it', but LordsServant replied in a surpsisingly cogent manner.

    As I recall it, the thrust of his argument was that since the fighter/drone change, supercarriers cannot engage subcapitals effectively or efficiently. Their main claim to power is fighter-bombers, which cannot hit subcapital targets, and replacing them with fighters is sub-optimal when compared to bringing the much cheaper Thanatos.

    In this capital-heavy combat environment, especially in a meta-game where opponents do not field opposing supercaps, Titans (or more correctly, Titans with turrets) become the weapon of choice to defeat battleship/shield battlecruiser fleets.

    Titans fill the Hellcat role.
    Supercarriers fill the Guardian role.
    Carriers fill the RR Dominix role (don't knock it - they have jump drives and can spew out omnidirectional-tracking-linked sentry drones like mad)

    If opponents would bring their own capital fleet to a fight, then supercarriers and their fighter bombers would become desired. Until they have targets they can engage, they will be relegated to Titan-repair duties.

    That's what LS was getting at.

    1. You're partially right. He called out Aeons specifically in this role, not really mentioning Nyxes, so I'm not sure how he feels about those.

      Even if he felt the same way, though, it's still a pretty Randian response. Roughly translated: "If you're not bad, get a Titan."

  9. I have a bad question, coming from a guy that has only really experience in wormholes and not the actual "null sec experience," that requires a good answer: How do people make enough money to actually buy and fit a SC or even a titan these days? I couldn't imagine that they grind Incursions, so I assume that they are either amazing at market pvp or that they have access to some crazy complexes out in a dead end, middle of no-where null system.


    1. It's not that hard to make 10bil a month if you have the rl time and perseverance to put into it and/or are clever.

      Speculation here, but I think the main method is corp taxes. Say a 200 man corp has maybe 10-20% of it's members off making isk at any one time and 10% tax. If those 20-40 people make 10bil isk in a day, that's 1bil to the corp wallet per day. Those numbers are probably a bit optimistic, but good enough to prove the point. 365 days a year = 365bil a year in corp revenue just in corp taxes. That's enough for 3 well-fit titans per year, or one about every 4 months. Add in other sources like moon mining or PI taxes, and the corp can be pulling in a ton of money that it can put toward increasing it's combat capability in ship replacement programs or supercap financial assistance.

      Since you're in a wormhole, your corp doesn't really see this because the rats you hunt don't have a bounty that gets shaved into the corp wallet (unless each member is required to tithe to the corp).

  10. I imagine alliances do it via taxes and rent. Though I do know someone who bought one for personal use from grinding incursions.

  11. "And searching for some other end-game in EVE."

    I think you do a good bit of that already. End-game can mean, quite literally, that logging in the client to play the game becomes optional.

  12. Didnt read through all the comments, but Im pretty sure Helen called you poor, not bad.

    1. No, Helen definitely said bad, because I made an Ayn Rand joke (which Helen didn't get).


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