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I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Friday, April 13, 2012

Tweet of the Week: Snobbery

Funny story about my post earlier today about that Hel kill.  Helicity Boson contacted me on Twitter to make sure I was clear that he was involved in that kill from a DPS stand-point, not a planning stand-point.  He was there, to quote the poet, but he wasn't the instigator.  But in the midst of making sure I understood that (I did, and told him so), he also took me to task for disparaging his Curse fit (which I did in the footnotes for the post):
You know I'm a horrible mean pirate, because what offended me most was an insult to my Curse fit!
Why did I disparage his Curse fit, and the fit of the all-neut Bhaalgorn also involved in the kill?

Because both ships were reliant on low-meta neuts.  Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not a snob about this...  OK, hush.  I'm not always a snob about this.  But sometimes, you want to fit the good stuff because the good stuff is markedly, measurably better than the bad stuff.

"The difference is like 7 cap per cycle base. Negligible. I'm not space-rich," Helicity said to me.  And sure, OK, on a Hurricane, that's true (sort of).  And indeed, he joked that he'd fit meta 4 neuts when he looted them off a Hurricane.  But this is a Curse.  When you're fitting a ship that's bonused for something like e-war, respect the bonus and fit for it.  Why?  Because, in this case, the effectiveness of neuts on a Curse is doubled.  Which means the differences between low-meta and high-meta are also doubled.

On a Curse, a meta 4 Unstable Power Fluctuator drains 360 cap from the target every 12 seconds.  The meta 1 Rudimentary Energy Destablizer drains 316 per 12 seconds.  That's a difference of four cap, per second, per neut.  It's not, sad to say, negligible.  On an four-neut Curse supported by a Basi, that's 16 cap per second, or 192 cap per cycle.  Or put another way, almost enough neuting power to neut out an additional interceptor, every cycle.  Or enough additional neuting to neut out a Vagabond in one cycle instead of two.

The difference on a Bhaalgorn is equivalent.  The Bhaalgorn on that kill-mail was using meta 3 500W Infectious Power Systems, presumably seven of them since it did no actual damage.  The difference -- even between meta 3 and meta 4! -- is more than 2 cap per second per neut, or the very same 16 cap per second for an all-neut Bhaalgorn.  And the difference on both ships increases if you use Talismans that increase neut cycle speed.

I'm not space-rich either.  Hell, I'm practically space-poor.  But sometimes high meta mods are expensive because they're worth the expense.

I try to resist the call of ~elite PvP~ in this game because most of the time, people who bitch about it are right to bitch.  You don't have to be 100% optimal all the time.  But very occasionally, the ~elite PvPers~ are the ones that are right.  If your ship gets a bonus, and taking advantage of the bonus will make your ship measurably better, spend the ISK and take advantage of that bonus.  Or that interceptor or Vagabond you fail to neut might well be the one that tackles you and causes your ship -- and the ISK you did put into it -- to die.  ;-)


  1. Replies
    1. Bother. I knew that and still typed "eight". Thanks, fixed. The overall calc is still correct, at least.

    2. By extension, it is 14 cap per second, not 16.

    3. It's two and a fraction per neut, per second. 16 is correct.

  2. [ 2012.04.08 16:28:38 ] Ochee > anyone have a good site to buy plex? :(
    [ 2012.04.08 16:28:53 ] Keshiv > one cloaky transport ship kill would make it worthwhile
    [ 2012.04.08 16:28:53 ] Anterous > iskbank
    [ 2012.04.08 16:29:06 ] Enochia Starr > ^ dont buy from there you'll get banned
    [ 2012.04.08 16:29:16 ] Keshiv > i'll bet they are carrying 75 pith a meds
    [ 2012.04.08 16:29:17 ] Enochia Starr > go to somerblink, at least you can get blink credit :)
    [ 2012.04.08 16:29:37 ] Ochee > trying to fit up my hel lol
    [ 2012.04.08 16:29:51 ] Ochee > shattered crystal ran out of plex lol
    [ 2012.04.08 16:29:54 ] Enochia Starr > how many damn characters you have lol
    [ 2012.04.08 16:30:04 ] Ambedrake > hehe dont ask
    [ 2012.04.08 16:30:08 ] Ochee > more than anyone here know's lol
    [ 2012.04.08 16:30:16 ] Ambedrake > Whipp use Blink
    [ 2012.04.08 16:30:24 ] Ambedrake > then you get free gamblin \0/
    [ 2012.04.08 16:30:32 ] Ochee > blink.com?
    [ 2012.04.08 16:30:37 ] Keshiv > another prorator warped thru =( this guy is getting way too confident
    [ 2012.04.08 16:30:40 ] Ambedrake > let me get the link
    [ 2012.04.08 16:30:45 ] Ochee > tks
    [ 2012.04.08 16:31:02 ] Ambedrake > http://cogdev.net/blink/
    [ 2012.04.08 16:31:14 ] Anterous > oh dont get him started on blink, he'll lose 20 od bil in minutes ;-)
    [ 2012.04.08 16:31:24 ] Ambedrake > lol

    1. linking a couple lines of text out of context? You seem to have a very guilty conscience as you won't let this go. Your responses have convinced me of your guilt far more than anything jester could have or did say.

  3. A ship on the field with meta 1 neuts is worth more than any number of ships who aren't there because they had to take a trip to Jita for the high meta neuts because their e-honour is at stake.

    1. True, enough - you use what you have when you need to do so.

      Ofc, I sort of doubt that they just happened to have an unfitted Curse and Bhaalgorn, and then needed to quick fit it, at the last possible moment, with whatever happened to be on hand.

    2. It is much easier to find the hull than the meta4 modules. The hull will be for sale in the market hub: 150M for the Curse. The meta4s will be spread out to kingdom come: 4 jumps for 2, 5 jumps over to the third, 5 more jumps to the fourth … or just buy something else that is only 2% worse in the same station as the hull. Being a snob is fine when you have the money to have two of every ship you can fly pre fitted in every station you normally fly from.

    3. I had to clone jump and get an armor curse ready on the fly in minutes, so I grabbed what was in my can (looted modules).

      I'll keep using these 50Ws while they last, almost all my curses have them, I find them on canes a lot :P

      I rail on fits that are bad because of the type of modules, not the meta level. other than that I usually Fit T2, rarely faction, and downgrade to metas when I can't get something to fit.

      Cap stable armor curse with full rack of mediums (which I used) requires meta neuts, I had 50W in my can, I used 50W. I don't see the big deal really.

      However when I kill a scrub in a raven and he has 200mm rolled tungsten plate, that is a VERY different story.

    4. That's the thing. You *didn't* use 50Ws. On the KM, you're using Rudimentaries, the meta 1. Maybe you only used one? Check the ship.

  4. I cringe every time I see meta-3 ('Arup') instead of meta-4 ('Solace') large remote armor reppers on a Guardian or an Oneiros for the same reason, especially if the player's alliance has a ship replacement program. The extra 0.35km unbonused range and 14HP/cycle range may seem insignificant on paper considering that Solaces can cost upwards of seven million ISK each, but they can and not infrequently will mean the difference between saving a ship or watching it explode. An expensive tech-2 ship deserves the expensive modules that improve its performance, especially if others rely on it.

  5. The bizarre thing about that bhaalgorn is that meta 4 neuts aren't even expensive - they cost ~500k ISK apiece. I can kind of sympathise with not wanting to put meta 4 medium neuts on a Curse when they're 10m apiece, but putting meta 3 on a bhaal to save ~3m? That's some special level of bad + dumb + cheap.

  6. The Bhaalgorn and the Curse are not exactly cheap ships. If you are "space rich" enough to buy, fly, and possibly lose such a ship, then you should be able to fit better mods.

    Lame excuse.

    Helicity is usually among the first to loudly disparage anyone losing an expensive ship 'cause of skimping on the mods. Shame, shame.

  7. I disagree with you on this. That's far from being a 'fail'.

    If you don't have the money/module, go with what you got. We aren't all perfectionists.

    I would fit the meta3/4 if i could, but I'd never take sbd. else to task over this kind of non-optimal fitting.

  8. If your flying T1 crap you don't have to stress about cramming all the best gear on there.

    But for a fucking Bhaal? A hull that expensive demands some love!

  9. Hey babe your a smoking hot piece of work and I'm going to take you to McDonalds. Sounds Great doesn't it.

  10. Completely disagree. The kill was based on not skill or ship power, but on the scam. They could come in T1 ships with T1 fit. Maybe it would take a few minutes longer.

    1. So they deliberately swapped the neuts off the Bhaalgorn to save less than 5mil, because they were that confident in getting it down?


      Personally I think a 1.2billion ISK hull needs more than 4 or 5mil on it's heavily bonused EWAR system to make it worthwhile, which is why you usually see faction neuts.

      Low meta is just woeful.


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