Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Thursday, January 17, 2013

John Marshall has made his decision

I lied.  A quickie before my first post about the Summit Minutes.  I was amused to see this on EVE log-in this evening:
Incursion Site Exploit Notification
reported by: CCP Falcon | 2013-01-17T16:48:38Z

Good evening internet spaceship captains.

We would like to inform you all that after thorough investigation, the GM Team have come to the decision that loitering in completed Incursion sites with the intent of preventing further continuation of the Incursion is now considered an exploit.

Any players found engaging this activity will be dealt with according to our policies on exploits.
Well.  That only took about a year.  ;-)

Still, I am reminded of what then-U.S. President Andrew Jackson once supposedly said about the notoriously powerless (at that time) U.S. Supreme Court when they made a decision he didn't like: "John Marshall has made his decision.  Now let him enforce it."  He didn't say that.  He said something substantially less pithy and more erudite.  Still, the intent of what he said was clear enough.

All you guys with cloaky Ibises should stop now.  The GMs and CCP Falcon said so.


  1. I just want to throw this in here about something you mentioned in your earlier posts. Trebor and Seleene have usually done good work on the CSMs. I find their conduct unbecoming and unprofessional where, on page 23 of the new minutes, they admit to fucking around with the minutes of the Spring Summit for the sole purpose of indulging their personal grudge against you.

    Trebor can get himself re-elected, I don't care, but Seleene..... his time has come and gone. His usefulness is at an end to the player community.

  2. Being AFK in Space: Now an exploit.

    If they are cloaked and preventing despawns, that would be one thing (and should be dealt with the same way as cloaked AFKing in anoms was: that is, by fixing the anoms).

    But now (based on my reading of that notice) sitting AFK, uncloaked, in space is an exploit. If someone's preventing you from accessing a resource, Kill them to free up the resource for your use.

    1. Agreed. Pretty typical "attacking the symptoms instead of the root cause." If the incursion pays out, remove the beacon for it from Local then spawn the next one. You'd think it wouldn't be hard.

    2. For Soundwave saying not 6 months ago that "I don't like limiting what players can do," [EVE Vegas -- "I was there", no, srsly, I was. Even won a Tempest model] they sure are itchy with that trigger finger on naming things exploits, huh?

      Maybe CCP needs a dose of their own "HTFU" medicine, to wit: "If the code/game mechanics allow you to do it, it's perfectly legal...if CCP doesn't like it, CCP needs to tighten up their code/mechanics to prevent it."
      Done and done. People like "black and white" thinking, well, there it is. If you can do it in the game, it's allowed. No "it's ok" one minute and "it's a bannable exploit" the next.

    3. "If someone's preventing you from accessing a resource, Kill them to free up the resource for your use."

      1 problem was killing them didn't free up the spawn for a greater amount of time than it took to return to the site after reshiping into a new rookie ship.So effectively they had the same ability as a cloaked ship in an anom from what I'm told. A bit less AFK granted but just as invulnerable effectively especially when Concord is brought in


    4. They're using an alt to deny you the resource, you use an alt to kill and pod them (if they're AFK, you're virtually guaranteed a pod kill). A t1 fit thrasher is much less than the value of the spawn.

      A cloaked ship in an Anom cannot be countered using normal game mechanics. An uncloaked ship in a spawn can.

      As for CONCORD, people kill people protected by CONCORD all the goddamn time. It's not at all difficult. It just takes some cash (something that Incursion runners are notoriously short on, I'll admit... wait...).

  3. Maybe, just maybe, CCP is calling this an exploit, AND is planning on fixing the code, and this is a stopgap measure.

    But the griefers want to say "hey, CCP screwed up, and we should be allowed to grief until they fix it".

    Think a number of goons who made trillions on some broken FW/market exploit found out what CCP thinks about that when CCP confiscated trillions back. (although I am pretty sure it was a fraction of what the goons made off the mechanic).

    Now, whether CCP will, or even can, enforce this edict is another matter altogether.

    1. "Now, whether CCP will, or even can, enforce this edict is another matter altogether."

      Uh, yeah... its called the banhammer.

    2. How will they know whom to ban? They can hardly ban anyone who fits a cloak in high-sec. The logs are clearly going to show nothing when the rubber meets the road so unless a GM is sitting in an incursion site and sees that Ibis cloak, how are they gonna know?

      Sure, they can wait for people to complain about specific pilots but I can tell you from experience most of those pilots are going to be too busy with their own concerns to notice an Ibis on overview for the few seconds it takes to pulse a MWD and get out away from the acceleration gate.

      Point here is that CCP could have solved this 50 other ways than the impotent one they chose.

    3. Sitting cloaked in incursion sites to stop them respawning was fixed ages ago. That doesn't work. Uncloaked ships, however, still count as a "participant" and keep the site open. This player has 5+ accounts they logged in and placed noobships on each beacon at the entry gate. Not cloaked, just sitting there. They then called in local constantly to be paid ransom (I don't think they'd have left paid or not). Players would get small destroyer packs together and gank the noobships, possibly freeing up a site or two, but of course taking a sec-status hit while having to work logistics while the blocker simply woke up in a local medbay, hopped in his noobship and rewarped.

      So, it's very easy to see who's holding the sites open; get a set of combat probes, scan down immobile noobships, warp and press that ever illusive Print Screen button.

    4. I smell a business opportunity - get paid by the incursion fleets to clear noobships off beacons . . .

    5. OOZ, the tactic can be countered (by suicide ganking) therefore it's fine. He's using 5 alts to deny you access to the resource, you can use 5 alts to counter him by suicide ganking him. Ganking a noobship costs about 1.5m (probably less if you use a frigate, but I'm going to assume Thrasher) and you can do it easily at -10, so your cost is minimal to free up the valuable resource that he's attempting to deny you.

    6. @Jester - Hate to pop your ignorance bubble, but CCP can track any activity in the game, which they choose to track. They don't need to assign GMs to sit in the Incursion sites, either (although this is always an option).

      They can do this by monitoring server-side activity, running database queries, and downloading information from the client. If they so choose, they could trap every mouse click and key press you make on the client.

      And, they don't need to go through all of this player activity data by hand. It takes just a few minutes to write bits of code, scripts and macros to do this automatically, and only the query results need to be analyzed (which can also be done by a piece of simple code).

      But, go ahead and suggest to players that CCP can't possibly police this exploit....

    7. Except I have to import ships and fittings that he doesn't. And manage bookmarks. And hope that he doesn't just manage to either warp back or warp in a new alt before the site actually despawns. And even then, I won't be running the resulting sites, because I'm too busy with all that to pay attention to my main.

  4. CCP bad at their own game? You don't say!


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