Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Sunday, May 19, 2013

CSM8 status report: Week two

Reading reading reading reading reading.  Trying to stay ahead of EVE Online forum posts, private chats, Skypes, Twitter, EVE mail, pod-casts (though that's not reading, of course).  This CSM thing continues to be an enormous amount of work!  And thank you to all of you that have taken the time to drop me a line or send me a comment!  As always, there's some fun stuff to share.

Early this week, CCP Dolan announced that CSM8 had chosen our officers:
Chairman: Trebor Daehdoow
Vice Chair: Ripard Teg
Secretary: Kesper North
Vice Secretary: Ali Aras
Surprised?  I suspect a lot of people were.  Set's Chaos was surprised, for instance, and published a rather amusing article talking about his surprise on TMC.  He recognizes that we got this done in a single vote, and attributes it to apathy with a quote from mynnna.  The quote is accurate, but Set's caught mynnna at the end of a long work-day.  mynnna had forgotten his own Google document that listed who wanted what post.  For the record, there were a few candidates for each post.  No big deal.  It certainly wasn't anything like the biggest mistake made by a CSM member this week.  That was all mine, baby.  ;-)

The rest of the CSM has apparently started a pool: how long until Ripard NDA-blogs himself right off the CSM?  Let's hope it's next May.

Anyway, all of us on CSM8 had ourselves a grin at this initial TMC article, particularly because several of us had already been interviewed or contacted by Rhavas for a more definitive CSM8 officer article.  He was quick to reassure us that Set's article wasn't it.  I have to admit, though, I had a personal amused moment.  I suspect my feelings when I read Set's article were mirrored by Seleene, Alekseyev Karrde, and a few other members of CSM7 from time to time when I would write something.  Ah well.

Rhavas's article came out the 17th and is terrific.  I strongly encourage you to go out and give it a read.  It's the clearest possible picture you could get of how the officer selection process went.  There's pretty much nothing I would add to the article and the quotations from me are accurate and sum up how I feel the officer voting went.  So go give it a few minutes of your time.  I want to compliment Rhavas on a fine job here!

Currently going through the five stages of grief is Poetic Stanziel.  He's currently somewhere between "Anger" and "Bargaining."  His article "It is time to get rid of CSM titles" is an absolute riot!  This blog post can be roughly summed up as "Trebor won a Grammy?!  This proves the Grammies are freaking worthless.  End them.  Now."  At one point, Poe indicates there have been few or no CSM officers that have done anything worth a damn in the positions.  I dispute this in the strongest terms.  Anyone who doubts Mynxee owned that Chair title is flat wrong, and TeaDaze was the finest Secretary any CSM has ever had.  And that's just two people that jumped into my head reading his piece.

Onward.  I'm hoping to announce the date of the first CSM Town Hall in a couple of days.  Many of the CSM have agreed to my preliminary schedule for six town halls this year.  I want two town halls each on either side of the two summits, one during the mid-summer lull in CCP activities, and one during the run-up to the CSM9 election.  I'm also building up support for the monthly "Features and Ideas" meeting that I mentioned last week, with buy-in from a number of CSM members and (this week) a couple of CCP devs, interested to see what we up-vote.  Ali Aras has been running a series of "Space Hangouts".  Check out her G+ page for details on that, or it'll be on her blog very soon.  She also did a pretty interesting analysis on the CSM8 voting trends.

Note to self: get the CSM8 bloggers into the "Infrequent but Important" section of this blog.

Two step really stepped up this week (sorry, couldn't resist) and provided a ton of additional input for the CSM7 transition work.  Thanks very much, Two step!  My initial goals for transition were four-fold:
  1. Document any open switches that CSM7 had with CCP in terms of promises made.
  2. Document any issues that CCP had asked the CSM to follow up on.
  3. Document anything either from CSM7 or from past CSMs that CSM8 should hold CCP accountable to.
  4. Document names, CCP names, and titles for CCP devs and generally list which ones are good contacts and for what.
This is going slowly but well.  I need to push on it a little more.  Hans Jagerblitzen and Alek also continue to be a help here.  A bunch of us have also now been invited to an alumni CSM channel where we can chat with other past CSM members (and they can laugh at us).

Several CSM members appeared on pod-casts this week, and mynnna and I were invited to chat a little bit about CSM at the Syndicate Competitive League tournament.  My big pod-cast appearance this week was on Podside (Mike Azariah is a co-host there).  I'm pretty sure I was episode 104.  It was pretty late at night and by the end I was a bit punchy and profane.  Sorry about that... if you're looking for a totally classy CSM rep, it wasn't me.  ;-)  But it was a damn good time regardless and I got to talk about our activites a good bit.  Kesper North will soon be putting up a forum thread with contact info for all CSM members.

Lots of good discussion on the CSM Skype channels this week about various Odyssey topics!  You can probably guess the two items that took most of our time.

A decent number of CSM members and ex-CSM members got themselves killed in-game this week.  That prompted me to joke that I wanted to be the first CSM member to shoot and kill every other active CSM member.  Then I was reminded that the mains of two current CSM members are currently sitting in titans, which could make that problematic.  ;-)  Still, might be interesting to try for the record.  I wonder what the record is?

Finally, CSM got its first bit of homework over this weekend.  A CCP dev that shall remain nameless asked for information about how to learn how to do T2 manufacturing... in game.  I have to admit that this made me laugh and I teased the dev in question about it for about an hour while his screen filled up with info windows.  I finally took "pity" and pointed him at the little basic T2 manufacturing guide that I wrote earlier this year.  His response to it was quite amusing and probably under NDA; you T2 manufacturers like me can probably imagine it.  But he paid me back for the teasing and the wall of text with a homework assignment: give him some proposals for making T2 manufacturing more understandable, particularly in-game.  He's also given me permission to run a player round-table on the subject, so that's exactly what I'm gonna do.  Look for that to be set up in the next week or so.  Feel free to start commenting on it now, though!  First thing that occurred to me?  How about a random 2-run T2 BPC for completing the industry tutorial?  First thing that occurred to Alekseyev Karrde?  A "Variations" tab on T1 BPOs and BPCs, pointing to their T2 versions.  I think both are pretty good ideas: they show newer players what's possible.  But I'll be looking for other good ideas, from you.  Yes, you!

And that's it!  Another busy week!  I'm falling a bit behind on my EVE-O forum reading, so I need to devote more time to that this week.  We should also have another stake-holder meeting this week.  Hopefully it will be later than 4am...


  1. I got a good laugh out of the paragraph on Poe.

    T2 wise...really it's a S&I interface that gets most of my griping about. Queuing up multiple jobs at once would...be an incredible step forward for one.

    In fact, the singular aspect of my bone to pick with that function (or lack thereof) has me drawing a blank on anything else at the moment.

    1. I got a good laugh out of it too, mainly over how unfortunate the choice of the Grammies as a comparison was. They are commonly regarded as the worst of the major entertainment awards, in every aspect. Jester should have gone with something more like: "This blog post can be roughly summed up as 'Upon being gifted a rubber ducky in an incorrect shade of vermilion, Poetic futilely tried to drown the inanimate toy in his bubble bath, in a spastic fit of pique'. "

  2. jester, now that you are on the inside, does that impact your view on csm7?


  3. I hate t2 manufacturing with a fucking passion. I literally drew a line in the sand and was like no, I'm not building two sabers for you, I'm only building them in incrimints of five. Order again please

    Now I do cap building, and that sucks, but not nearly as much as t2. Esp if you have to make random components...

    Also, it looks like the link you put for Kespers thread is 404

  4. I think we need workflows ingame, t2 and t3 manufacturing are a pain to get started (T3 even WORSE)

    T1 BPO -> copy it -> invention -> manufacturing should be more transparent with fancy graphics and those things.

  5. T2 wise

    Batch Processing for invention and manufacture

    For the sake of all those mice out there if nothing else.

  6. How do i get in on this betting pool? Whats the Over/Under on it?

  7. No sure if you saw my post on the forums, but the link to Kesper North's thread seems to be 404'd and the post doesn't exist on his posting history.

  8. Oh, how I would have wanted to be a little fly on the wall when the dev got indoctrinated on T2 manufacturing. (hehehe)

    I've been hitting the T2 hard in preparations for upcoming Odyssey. My alt has been working her clicking finger to the bone.

    Good luck with the round table! Looking forward to ANY T2 manu changes.

  9. Ah T2 production... finally it might get some love ;-)

    First of all the Invention process should be made easier with multiple jobs installed at once. clicking all this BPCs into invention slots takes a lot of time. Maybe even combining them to put more BPCs into one Invention for a T2 BPC with all the runs combined (put 5 Hammerhead I in invention an get one BPC with 50 runs)

    Improve the Invention results! +50% Material as default compared to T2 BPOs is a lot of stuff. You might produce faster with tones of BPCs but you need more slots and more material -> a lot more work for a much thinner profit.

    Choosing production slots:
    If you happen to sit on a station where someone else is setting up jobs you get the "hoops already taken" message. Does anyone really select a slot not available ASAP? Providing a quick install button just taking the next available queue would help here and reduce the click work a lot.

  10. In every blueprint there is the list of materials plainly visible, but it doesn't work the other way around. Connecting the dots in any manufacturing process would be a lot easier if materials and components would have a "Used for" tab that would list the blueprints the item appears in. This is of course not specific to T2 manufacturing but it is particularly critical for new players trying to get a picture of what goes where.

  11. click click click click click click click click.

    I'm getting flashbacks.

    S&I changes I'd love to see, without significant metagame changes:
    Creating multiple identical jobs at once. Probably what Xaeroflex meant, but I've seen people talking about how they'd like to be able to queue up many jobs (50+), and just have a number equal to their slots running (10 or so).

    The removal of options from the context menu, which aren't available for that thing. Removing copy, ME research, PE research and reverse engineering for BPCs, for example.

  12. I made an EVE forum topic with my ideas for revamping T2 Industry after reading this post. Invention definitely needs some work. Hopefully CCP will find the time to address it someday.


  13. Fyi, the "Eve Online Thread" link is broken - at least on my end. Please discard this comment in the bit bucket - I just wanted to give you a heads up. Chow.

  14. How about a simple UI one. If I am at my limit of Research slots, tell me as soon as I start the right-click operation on the blueprint, not after I've gone through 4-5 dialogs of work to choose a slot, check materials, yes it's okay that it won't start right away, etc.

  15. Your link to Kesper North's forum thread for CSM contact info is broken. Also, don't forget to follow up on your "note to self."

    Keep up the good work!

    -Sebastian Thielman

  16. "Mynnna: So far the only surprise along those lines honestly has been that Ripard talks in Skype a lot less than you'd expect."

    That quote from the article about CSM officers had me laughing out loud. :-)

  17. It has been echoed above, but if you look at the planetary interaction set of components, it is possible to use the in-game show info to go up and down the PI chain. Starting from the product I want, you can walk backwards to figure out what you need. But you can also start with 'I have this goo, what can I manufacture with it.' navigation option.

    This is relatively impossible to do with T2 production. Also, trying to figure out *how* to invent a T2 bpc starting with a T1 bpo is an exercise in black-magic divination.

    So, to review:

    1) Forward links in all the T2 components from moongoo up to components.
    2) A tab on a blueprint copy describing what other components you can use with it (decryptors/modules etc..) to gain what possible bonuses to the finished T2 copy. All information available out of game, but should you really have to go out of game to get this kind of basic information?

  18. " Poe indicates there have been few or no CSM officers that have done anything worth a damn in the positions. I dispute this in the strongest terms."

    lol POE should have read up on the Chair AHK more it sounded like she really brought attention into HI SEC issues until all NULL SEC meta-gamed up on her for something as silly as throwing a spoon.

    1. Poe is actually correct.

      Jester only named 2 CSM officers who have actually done good work - this is hardly a majority of the folks who have held CSM officer positions in the past. In fact, I'd say that 2-3 is indeed approximate to "few".

      I don't recall how many officers the earliest CSMs had, if any, but there must have been at least 10-20 past officers from CSM1 through CSM7. So, if you can name 8-10 officers of past note, then, perhaps, you might actually prove Poe to be wrong in his statement.

  19. Jester, don't burn yourself with the CSM, as one of the individuals who voted for you, was looking for a fresh and more mature view on the CSM. Not for an overworked individual.

    Tread that path carefully.

    1. What Alain said.

      Also, be careful of "treading" the same "path" as your predecessors. Remember that, overall, the player base wasn't been all that happy or impressed with previous CSMs and their results, or lack thereof.

      Following in the footsteps of failure really isn't the smartest thing to do.

      Don't be afraid to throw the past CSM work out, clear the tables, and start afresh in a totally new direction. Remember that Fozzie successfully did this with the ship rebalancing, after years of other devs making the same damn mistakes over and over again, because they were afraid to break away from the established path.

  20. fixing t2 can start with t1.

    occasionally the corp leading hand will ask me to start 10 x ME for typically the same BPO. So instead of being able to:

    1. select a volume/count
    2. set a default location for slots (we haz pos)
    3. have a ME10 pre-set
    4. know when I have reached number 11 before completing 5 steps to learn that

    each of the 10 are individually actioned. click much?!

    oh and if I can say anything about Adv lab operation and adv mass prod are both x8 skills. training for the final V level takes as long to gain the 11th job, as it does to learn the preceding 6 through 10 job slots. (maybe I am hyperboling that imprecisely). but most indies will start an alt and train up for 10, than skill for 11.


  21. "A CCP dev that shall remain nameless asked for information about how to learn how to do T2 manufacturing... in game."

    Tell him/her to start with T1 manufacturing - in game - which is mostly broken, esp. with regards to T1 modules.

    I'd like to see T1 manufacturing get fixed before more dinking around with T2 manufacturing. I've had far too many new players want to get into manufacturing, only to find that they can't compete with the old guard. Vet manufacturers pretty much have both the ship and T2 markets wrapped up tight, and T1 modules still have essentially no value above their mineral reprocessing cost - it is almost impossible for a new player to eke out any reasonable profit via manufacturing.

    T2 modules really need a major economic nerf, anyways. They should be much more rare, costly, difficult to fit, longer to build - rather than being the "standard" for *every* damn fit. Not quite as rare/pricey as T2 rigs, perhaps, but certainly more so than the current status quo.

  22. "A "Variations" tab on T1 BPOs and BPCs, pointing to their T2 versions"

    Just a note that this is detailed under the info tab of the item itself. So, for example, if you 'show info' on a Vexor there will be a variations tab showing the Ishtar and faction versions. But it should be on the BPO as well.

    The S&I UI needs a lot of love. It is just too click intensive and totally counter intuitive. T2 manufacturing is even worse using a POS (which for some unexplained reason inflicts a material penalty upon you as well). Is T2 manufacturing so simple that you have to make a loss as well?

  23. Fun post...I smile at the "lots of work" comments...sounds like it is more work than ever these days. Hope you have Adv Speed Reading at 5. Thanks for the mention and compliment.

  24. 2 possible ways I can see off the bat to make T2 production easier to understand/learn in game.

    First, add some commentary on how to do it in the industrialist tutorial even going so far as to have the character doa fake T2 invent with materials given to make something useless or better yet only good for the tutorial.

    Second, make an arc mission or so on for one of the big corps in each empire that includes collecting materials, doing some research, making a T2 item and so on with explainations and the requirements in the missions of the arc. Make it provide some nice selection of indy implants at the end prize along with some cash and a load of faction specific datacores. Should be good for some faction standing too and a lot of standing with that corp.

    So, there you go, some ways to make T2 prodution a little less mystical. T3, ummmmmmmmmm, yeah, the chain of alternate things or required components is about all I would do for that.

  25. "I suspect my feelings when I read Set's article were mirrored by Seleene, Alekseyev Karrde, and a few other members of CSM7 from time to time when I would write something. Ah well."


  26. There used to be a fake invention job as part of the industrialist tutorial, and it confused people hilariously. I still have a Villard Wheel from back then.

    Aside from being confusing, the other problem was even back in Apocrypha all the invention slots were occupied. The information on T2 manufacturing needs to exist in-game, but as others pointed out in this thread all of manufacturing needs an overhaul.

    First suggestion, have tutorial slots available in the career agent systems that ONLY accept career agent jobs, like the T1 frigate manufacturing job and the invention job that needs to be added. Material Efficiency and Production Efficiency research should also be included in the industry career path. Those nifty tutorial highlights should make an appearance in those missions as well to avoid a repeat of the Villard Wheel nonsense.

    That aside though, with meta mods dropping like candy ever since m0 loot was removed from the tables, basic T1 mods have no real value above their minerals. The entire balance of manufacturing and loot needs to be re-investigated, maybe with possible meta-loot manufacturing (damaged loot that need additional materials to repair into usable meta mods).

  27. Well given I produce 1% of Jita's weekly trade for any one item I choose (yes I am just as surprised as everyone else), please please make a select field just like with reprocessing.
    The mouse clicking is driving me more insane than I am now.
    Also no name because after the first time I did that I had a war dec(no those don't seem broken to me)

    1. re Mouse Clicking, a Sell All selected that is supposedly at most (selected)% under price would save so much sanity.

  28. Oh yes, T1 and T2 manufacturing earns little to no profit, so don't even bother making stuff.

    *hits refresh prices on spreadsheet*

    Yep, no profit here whatsoever. Move along, move along....

    Didn't take too long to find another gripe: I'm always entering in the max runs on a T2 BPC, having a button that would set runs to max would go a long way (or, you know, remember the last few hundred times that I've set it to produce 10 runs of whatever). Ditto with BPO copying.

    This ties in with my first comment: why do I have to select an assembly line every damn time? Why can't it default to say, the first assembly line that is open the soonest?

    One last one before I forget: can I get an executive summary when I deliver my 50+ invention jobs?

  29. After listening to podcast 104 Jester, I am wondering if you have become a proponent of "farms and fields"? I am disturbed to hear that this appears to have been adopted by CCP for the future of industry. It's a piece of trumped up rubbish from Mittani which was to be centrepiece of CSM6, but got euchred by Incarna rage.


    That's Weaselior arguing for it, and also mynnna has also been the soapbox for it.

    The irony for those that missed it is; the players that want this - are not the players that would be doing it. If it is such fantastic concept, then Goonswarm can be first to have a farm and field. Offer the location of their Ryhr Valley in public so that just about anybody can attempt an Operation Chastise. We are afterall talking about the organisation that actively despises Industrialists. On record is Ice Interdiction and Hulkgeddon sponsorship. Stop talking and start action guys?

    So Jester, since you now at the coalface, why is CCP adopting an untried and unproven concept?


  30. One thing that gripes me about T2 production is suddenly finding your short of either the T1 component or one of the production components (laser focusing crystals, ceramic plates etc) and having to cancel out go back and find the blueprints, scedule the jobs, then remember what you scheduled them for in the first place.
    It'd be really useful if it finds a shortage and you have the BPO/BPC for the item in the same hanger to auto schedule the required production and then queue the T2 build to auto-execute after the components are built. Allowing a default run quantity for the build (eg 50 T1 modules, 5 T1 ships, 300 compnents) would sovle multiply building 25 compnents here or 2 modules there.
    As to a T2 tutorial ... a single run ammo BPC would be an ideal build example, and depending on where it's built/sold might actually turn a profit.


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