Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Tuesday, July 23, 2013

I can't love people in slices

There was one other subject regarding the first weekend of CCP's Alliance Tournament that I want to cover since it's notable, but I don't want to belabor it or add to the drama surrounding it.  The more I think about it, the last thing this subject needs is drama.  But it does need to be covered.  As always when I feel the EVE news sites are skipping a news story, I'm going to cover the events as I understand them as best I can, and give you my opinion on the matter.  If I've gotten some of my facts wrong, first please correct me in the comments and second I apologize in advance.

During the AT broadcast on the 20th, CCP played an excerpt from a third party pod-cast on the Alliance Tournament twitch.tv stream.  The pod-cast included an excerpt from a song whose lyrics and song title are simultaneously misogynistic and racist in tone.  I'm not familiar with the song and I'm not going to pretend I am, but it was in retrospect a wince-inducing moment.  Was CCP directly responsible for the song?  No!  But they erred in not fully researching something that they broadcast to thousands of EVE players and potential EVE players before broadcasting it.  You'll notice some AT ads (including Rote Kapelle's) include the titles and locations of their source music for this reason.  It's partially a "fair use" copyright concern, partially a concern about hidden messages in that music.

Arydanika, a noted pod-caster (Voices from the Void) and EVE personality -- who was already upset by two previous concerns with CCP, and we'll get to those in a moment -- took offense to the song being played on the AT11 stream.  "Dani", as she is known, is both a woman and black.  While she seems to acknowledge that the song was not played deliberately by CCP, she felt it was the "last straw" driving her away from the community.

Now I've crossed paths with Dani a number of times during her time in New Eden.  I'm pretty sure I first encountered her in the incursion community two years ago (though she wouldn't have known who I was, since I kept my identity in incursion fleets a secret).  And over the last year, I've made a concerted effort to listen to more pod-casts, including Voices.  However, my first opportunity to work with her directly was as a Syndicate Competitive League commentator a few months ago.  In that, I found her an absolutely fantastic resource to the EVE community: professional, charming, quick-witted, and funny.  During SCL, she was an absolute sweetheart and a joy to work with.  She's done a tremendous amount of work to benefit the community, including one resource I take advantage of myself on a daily basis, a Skype channel used by EVE pod-casters and visitors like myself.  You'll gather I'm a huge fan of Dani's.
Arthur: God uses people like you, Lancelot. Because your heart is open. You hold nothing back. You give all of yourself.
Lancelot: If you knew me better, you would not say such things.
Arthur: I take the good with the bad, together. I can't love people in slices.
But let me also be frank.  Dani is my opposite in two respects.  I am incredibly thick-skinned.  Dani is... ummmm... not.  And my favorite aphorism about competition is to beat your competition by being better.  Dani's philosophy is... ummmm... different from that.

I've encountered these aspects of her personality from time to time over the years as well.  That Skype channel I mentioned?  Its history is checkered to say the least.  Dani's reaction to CCP Mintchip being hired has ridden "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" line pretty hard.  And Dani generally responds very poorly to any perceived slights on her gender or race, which is kind of ironic considering that she's a former Goon (yes, I've gently teased her about this once).  It's probably fair to say that when Dani's site wasn't picked up by CCP for the new year as a Community Fansite, she was kind of looking for the exit.

EDIT (24/Jul/2013): I've received a clarification from CCP that many -- perhaps most! -- of the EVE Community Fansites received e-mail notifications in error that they were being removed from the program, including Dani.  Chalk it up to unfortunate timing.

Now like Arthur in First Knight, I'm realistic about people.  I have my flaws -- more than the average person, I assure you -- and so does everyone... including all of my favorite people in EVE Online.  Like Arthur, I can't love people in slices.  I take the good with the bad, and as I said, I'm a big fan of Dani's... ultimately despite these aspects of her personality.  We're all human.  We have our good and bad points.

Anyway, when this last straw happened, Dani took the opportunity to shut down her EVE Online accounts and announce on Twitter that she was shutting down her pod-cast as well, a more or less classic rage-quit.  OK, it's understandable, and we've all lost faith with EVE Online from time to time.  If you haven't, you just haven't been playing this game long enough yet.  And losing a voice in the community obviously hurts, and I mourn them every time this happens.  But then the next day, Dani wrote a longer announcement of her departure on the blog associated with Voices.  Go give it a read.  I'll wait.

Um.  Ouch!  Yeah, that's pretty harsh.

Meanwhile, CCP employees that heard about Dani's departure were upset about it, and upset with the conditions that caused it.  CCP Rise almost immediately sought Dani out and apologized to her, and now according to Dani's blog CCP Manifest has as well.(1)  Manifest is pretty high up the food chain in CCP (he's ultimately in charge of both Public and Press Relations as well as social media), so him getting involved in this situation shows clearly that CCP was and is taking the issue seriously.  But by that time, Dani had already ripped into Mintchip pretty hard.  That caused Manifest to withdraw what was obviously an extended olive branch.  It's a doubly sad situation because the proverbial straw here wasn't something CCP did on purpose.

And that's where we are today.  Dani's official quit date is apparently August 7, and in the meantime, this situation is being discussed on the other pod-casts and on EVE Radio.  So now you're caught up.  Again, if I don't have my facts straight in some respect, someone please feel free to correct them in comments.

(1) Another person who I am a big fan of but who also has his faults, mostly the fact that he apparently can't resist trolling me... which given how gosh-darned earnest he looks in real life makes it hard to tell when he's trolling me...  ;-)


  1. Dani/General Public always confused me with Mintchip hate. I thought it was poor idea to hire Mintchip but craziness to let her keep her "handle" with her checkered past.

    However, CCP made the decision and that was that. She's a community manager so even if you disagree with her views/actions, she has zero control of EVE future or management. Even her influence over Dust514 is probably very limited to non existent.

    1. And even if it's just repeating rumors what dani said "has been rumored to garner material goods, publicity of her work and in-game items in exchange for sexual favors." is an accusation of prostitution, and that's way over the line. In that part at least I side with CCP

    2. Its funny how she talks about mintchip while complaining others act like that towards herself (or actually not even as Bad as she acts). Way to be hypocritical and make yourself look even worse. Tbh she just seems to be overly attention seeking...

    3. Pro tip Dani - Try not to shovel forth every sexist stereotype rumor about another female when you are complaining among other things about the community being sexist. Yes Eve is sexist and mysogynistic as hell and unfortunately evidently so are you. You Dani didn't do we sisters any favors.

      By the way as female I've been accused in my prime of having any success at work attributed to being cute or sleeping with someone important. Although I myself couldn't be bothered to have strategic sex, after watching males buddy and brosky and strip club buddy their ways up the corporate ladder, hell if I'm gonna fault a fellow female for sleeping her way up it, so what, it's not like the guys use merrit in their brother buddy their way up the ladder networks.

    4. CCP really circled the wagons with the complaints about Mintchip. Everyone who posted on the "welcome" thread (which turned into 30+ pages of rants before it got locked and made invisible to players) got forumbanned. Parting consolation prize was revoked? Perfectly understandable when you consider how hard CCP cracked down on all the criticism of Mintchip.

      If you check my posting history here and at reddit, I agree with pretty much all the criticism of Mintchip, and it is my understanding that CCP really fouled up with hiring her. But CCP is acting like every other company in stomping out dissent and criticism. Once you've worked in the corporate world for more than a couple years and that pattern becomes blindingly obvious.

    5. Amen, as a female in the game the first thing we need to do is stop thinking that our only chance at success is to bash other females for the precious few slots for females out there or accuse them or care if they use sex to help them.

      We women need to start helping each other more and criticizing each other with male made stereotypes (sleeping up the ladder being one of them) less. After all they buddy drink smooze up the ladder all the time, and yet the first thing that is thrown out at a successful younger female is "slept up the ladder". Either we condemn both males and females for non merrit schmoozing or we don't but it needs to be equal. I would say let's just stop criticizing.

      Dani you blew it, you would have had our sympathy if you hadn't decided to be part of the problem and throw crappy stereotypes around

  2. I try to be sympathetic and understanding of these issues (despite the far left spectator bench yelling at the top of their lungs I cant, what with me being a privileged white middle class male) but this? It's like trying to get someone jailed for rape because a guest at his party copped an unwanted feel at some random female guest.

    Dani basically threw a green-eyed shitfit ragequit and insulted another community figure AND a CCP employee - I'm no fan of Mintchip but when someone in jealousy and overblown rage basically calls someone else a whore it really does negate all their hard work and hard-earned reputation.

    That's how these things work. Reputations are built in years and crumble to dust in days if you take a wrong step.

    Dani did a stepdance number here.

    1. You're aware of your privilege and you're trying. Anyone who's not cool with that is more interested in being Right than in helping the cause.

      I'm amazed that she held on as long as she did, especially given that she was a Goon before that alliance started to try to clean up its act. The EVE forums reserve most of their scorn for people for the neurologically atypical, but Kugu and FHC and even eve-kill comment threads tend to read the way that song sounds. I'm sure that there are a number of alliance forums and comms that are hardly better.

      The tragedy here is that CCP isn't just protecting their own. They started swinging the banhammers around like berserkers after CCP Mintchip[1]'s thread filled up with bilge and misogyny, and, ironically, a certain amount of rage over her frustration with her treatment at the hands of the community. Dani had to know what had gone down and how CCP had escalated their response, because it wasn't exactly a secret, and she still couldn't resist. Rule #1 of posting to USENET: Never post while angry.

      Everyone has something to learn from this. It's a shame it went down like this, and I wish Dani the best.

      [1] New CCP employees pick their own nicks--CCP doesn't "let them have" the nicks they choose, unless they're clearly unacceptable.

  3. This is hard.

    For all the faults and past troubles that have occurred. For the mistakes that have been made by her in her reaction.

    The fact is: She has a point.

    And this is why:

    These terms turn up, and they turn up with alarming regularity. And the perception (Be it not reality) is that if you flag or report these then..what...nothing.

    There isn't visibility on anything occurring relating to this. Thus the cycle continues as people perceive that this is acceptable, and a "valid" part of the game.

    I admit to having no real knowledge of VotV podcast, or that author. But popping up that song on Twitch.Tv is another really bad PR own goal from CCP, and another one that shines a spotlight on the community.

    Thanks for your time. Peace out.

    1. She does have a point. That's what makes this issue less clear-cut than it should be. As I've said before, CCP sometimes tries to have it both ways: political correctness and a lack of player abuse and harassment on one side while actively sometimes punishing such harassment on the other.

    2. Last time I checked, "jew" nor "rape" are rude or offensive words...

      Calling someone a Jew is only offensive if you view it as such. If someone calls you "rich" or a "Muslim", do you take offense?

      If you're not either of those things, then you might be confused.
      If you are either of those things, why is it offensive? It's true.

      Also, "rape" used in the gaming community often refers to getting ganked. My time in WoW was rife with hearing about people getting gang raped. Again, I don't see the problem with using that word, unless it's being used as a threat for sexual assault (in which case you can and should take the matter to the police).

      "Nigger" on the other hand is offensive, and a rude word.

      However, the song in question is called "Bitch Niggaz" (note a different word), and is written and produced by Dr Dre, as well as performed by 4 black people. CCP didn't write it, produce it, nor perform it. They merely aired some of it on a web stream.

      In all honesty, I didn't think twice about it. I like rap music, black or white, and I like Dr Dre. It's a song that's been around for 12 years. If it had featured in a film, had a magazine article written about it, played in a bar, or any other venue, nobody would kick up a fuss.

      I can't help but feel that this is more about certain people in the community jumping at the chance to jump up and down, pointing at CCP, screaming, "YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG! YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG!". And this appears to be this months excuse.

      Perhaps CCP suspected that this would get people talking a bit, try and grab a bit of free publicity (any publicity is good publicity after all). However, I suspect they didn't even think about it. A CCP employee probably thought; "I like this song, I think it will go well with this fight.", not expecting people to run screaming that the world is coming to an end because someone said an offensive word.

    3. "Last time I checked, "jew" nor "rape" are rude or offensive words..."

      As a straight male WASP, I would like to object to this in the strongest possible terms. I don't care if it's common parlance, it's corrosive. I really enjoy flying starships and going around shooting other people's ships, but I feel like I have become a worse person for having to listen to "jew" and "rape" as technical terms. Worse, I generally feel powerless to do anything about this, because nobody else signals that they have a problem with it. I'd vote with my feet, but I don't know where I'd go. (When Ali Aras wrote her essay regarding Fleetporn Considerd Harmful, I wrote her a letter asking if I could join her alliance. Unfortunately, I am too old to fit their recruiting profile.) The fact that people who have a problem with this have no idea where to go, and can't trust, say, "We're seeking mature adults," to mean, "We're not a bunch of racist, misogynist assholes," is a real problem with the game's community.

  4. Playing that song: Bad, very bad. CCP should (and probably has (?)) excuse for this and distance itself from that event.

    The rest? Drama, useless, dumb drama. Just because you blog about a game or whatnot, does not mean you are entitled to anything. I didn´t read her blog, but if that last post is an example of her writing, I can understand why CCP did not include her.

    In the last time, I constantly see attacks on Eve because of "mysoginy". And as usual, a few lines stated once by a tiny minority are repeated over and over, but in the big picture I do not see hate for woman anywhere in eve. The opposite is the case.

    1. [citation needed]

      Seriously, give me an example of how EVE is welcoming toward women.

    2. Give me a reason why a video game should go out of its way to be welcoming toward women? Or Fags? Or Straights? Or Noe-Conservatives? Or Humanist? Or Catholics? Or..insert wtf ever you want.
      She over-reacted because of some song. Got a hard on during her rage rant quit and called a CCP employee a whore and had an olive branch YOINKED back because of it. I honestly don't get all of the coverage this is getting as her reaction wasn't ground breaking or new.

    3. Mintchip was given large ISK donations iirc. Isn't that quite welcoming? ;-)

      OK so I ignored the "Seriously" bit of your post.

    4. Is any MMO welcoming toward women? I personally think EVE isn't any worse in this regard then WOW or the like. Hell try a Korean Grinder MMO, those are really anti-female gamer.

    5. "Give me a reason why a video game should go out of its way to be welcoming toward women?"

      Because they're 50% of the human population, and they are potential customers?

      "Or Fags?"

      Oh, you're one of those people. Nevermind.

      "I personally think EVE isn't any worse in this regard then WOW or the like."

      A 2005 survey of WoW players showed that women made up 16% of their players; EVE's players are only 4% female, and I don't think that's entirely because of the subject matter.

    6. I've played a handful of MMO's and I started playing Eve just over a year ago. I did not know much about the game at all when I joined. I started a trial and found the people in Help and Rookie Help to be quite kind. I felt like Eve had a rare and amazing community from my very limited interaction at that point in the game. I had been welcomed by a GM as well when I started and that made a very positive impression on me.

      But after that in those first few weeks I was approached by Corps trying to recruit me. I have never played in a game that being female was a big deal, so when asked of my gender I did tell them I was female. This lead to all sorts of 'interesting' results, many of which were blatantly sexist and discriminatory.

      I see a lot of kindness and fun in the eve community at times as I lurk on forums and read blogs and news, but many of the things I have read and seen just in public channels and things I encountered from recruiters in the beginning really put me off. I really love Eve and how very different it is from other MMOs, but I am hesitant to get too involved because of some of the discriminatory behaviors I have witnessed in public channels on a daily basis.

      I do not need to be made to feel special and welcomed more then any other MMO, I am no one special and my gender should not make me special either, however certain behaviors are just naturally unwelcoming.

    7. @Jester: Can´t cite because most of this happens on TS. My Ex-Girlfriend played Eve, and guys in her Alliance where fawning over having a girl in the game. And yes, she got "welcoming gifts".

      But more precise: Eve is just as welcoming to women as its welcoming to men. The reason is simple. If I gank someone I do not know, nor do I care for his gender. Why should I?

    8. Im pretty sure its not aimed at men either. I mean really no MMO is going to come out and say WE ARE A MALE ONLY MMO THIS IS MAN SHIT AHHAHHAHHAH. because as has been pointed out its 50% of the pop. My question is why do u assume the game is aimed at just men? I think your trying to blame the issues of the larger community on a game designer and maybe need to look at yourselves. Because if you are seriously going to tell me that eve is a man's game because its about corporate domination and independence and only men like that you might just be sexist.

  5. Well, it's a god damn shame. I only knew Dani because I listened to her great podcast from time to time. I hope she will thing about it and maybe she comes back later.

    Dani, you did a lot of great things for us, please don't go.

    Nevertheless: Who is to blame on this case? Thing is - if CCP Manifest revoked the gift promised to her because of this idiotic rumours, he is clearly the one who to blame in this thing.

  6. I can hardly still be sympathic with this person, especially after having read the paste bin logs in that linked article, even though I did listen to/appreciate V&V.
    To me this person strikes me as terribly self-infatuated. Her reaction to all of this AT ad stuff and its aftermath, another testament.
    This is not being thin skinned, it's being overly touchy to the point of ridiculousness. I respect your opinion in that "ultimately despite these aspects of her personality. We're all human." but for me the scales are now tipped the other way, little respect left for her and (for me personally after all this drama) good riddance.

  7. Interesting. I had never heard of Dani before seeing this. You know what? Her skin might be a little thin, but she's spot on with her comment about mintchip. It was a dumb move on ccp's part hiring her, period, whether it was for eve or dust or as a janitor. CCP's treatment of Dani because she voiced her honest opinion about the hire is wrong. The loss is CCP's and the Eve community's and the blame lies squarely at the feet of CCP.

    When DUST bites the dust (when, not if) my accounts will also cease to be subbed if CCP moves mintchip over to the Eve side of things in any capacity whatsoever. You would be surprised at the number of people who really don't think encouraging a selfish, self-absorbed, vapid, vacuous, drama queen is a good idea. Especially one who brings nothing to the table in terms of insight into the game.

  8. Bloody sook! I don't care if Dani is black, white, red, blue or pink with paisley pattern.I don't care if Dani is a guy a girl, or a giraffe. Someone needs to put her over a kne and spank her like the child she is.

    Grow up, harden up, and life will seem so much easier!

  9. While there are sickening levels of racism, mysoginy, anti-semitismm homophobia, and general nastiness within the Eve community in general, and even more so in certain player organisations.

    This Dani person seems a little "unbalanced"

    Nethertheless, CCP should be far less tolerant of the bigotry that drags the reputation of this game through the mud.

  10. Dani lowered herself to Mintchip's standards and paid the price. A disgraceful, contemptible outburst. Yet another victim complex. All the goodwill pissed away. Good riddance.

  11. I wasn't impressed with Dani's rant/quit post. I'll be honest in that it's the first post I've read by her, but she comes off as simply pushing a stereotype herself.

    She complains because she's a woman CCP won't highlight her blog, but then she goes and attacks a woman CCP hired. So does CCP have a grudge against women or not?

    Then she talks about how her color factors into CCP not liking her blog but she uses a song written and performed by Dr. Dre who is considered one of the pioneers of black culture/music. So if CCP hated black culture why would they overlook a song from black culture?

    Dani simply comes off as being jealous and upset because she didn't get what she wanted and now she has to blame everyone else.

    It's the internet and nothing is stopping her from creating a blog as if she was a white male and seeing if CCP picks her work then. I'd wager they still wouldn't because they obviously had reservations and her "I quit" post proves they were right to be hesitant in highlighting her work.

  12. I always thought Dani was quite a likeable, intelligent and hard working member of the EvE community. She had a great style about her and achieved some great things. However, given Dani's actions, all I can say is:

    Good riddance Dani.

    Real life witch hunts have no place in EvE. Ever. When that witch hunt is aimed at dictating to CCP who they should and shouldn't employ, what do you seriously expect CCP to do?

    CCP sound like a good company to work for - a company who don't promote real life hatred of their own employees. Endorsing anyone who does promote hatred and leads witch hunts against their employees is clearly a ridiculous proposition for any decent company.

    As Dani decided to grab the flaming torch and go hunting, it was a no brainer for CCP - They aren't going to endorse people who carry out such spiteful activities aimed towards their employees.

    As for the playing of "nigger bitch" during ATXI, I have no idea what "nigger bitch" is but I'm fairly sure it ain't nice. I'm also sure that CCP would not want to have their company represented by it and that a huge majority of EvE players can see that it's offensive and has no place in ATXI. It's a regrettable oversight all round.

    Pretending that it is something much deeper with sinister motives is pathetic. Dani, as she occasionally does, is looking for malice where none was ever intended. It's more material for another with hunt, even if that material essentially does not exist.

    Regardless of how much "good" someone does for the EvE community, I'd prefer that prominent EvE community members don't go in with hunts and searches for non-existent malice. It creates massive real life ill feeling within the community where none previously existed. I shall not be shedding a tear on the 7th of August.

    I also shall not be asking for Dani to be removed from her next real life job because she lead witch hunts before she was employed there - that would be a very malicious act.

    1. a witch hunt is a "witch hunt" because witches don't exist, so you are *only* going to to catch & burn innocent people.

      this is different.

  13. It's things like this (and all the other dramas) that make me think not paying attention to anything online about EvE is becoming the only way to enjoy the game. The guy that got me back into EvE after a disastrous first attempt does not read the forums (except for dev blogs), does not listen to podcasts, nor does he read any blogs or gaming news sites related to EvE. And he's been happily enjoying the game, blissfully unaware of all the nastiness.

    It's got me thinking, too. Maybe the true path to EvE Nirvana is to... stop following EvE.

  14. Attention-whoring at its finest, and another individual addicted to playing the race/gender card. Not to mention the amazing hypocrisy of playing the gender card while rumor slut-shaming another woman in the same post. Only thing missing from her post is another rumor-driven sentence that CCP employee X only got hired because they are black. Should have ridden the crazy train all the way Dani.

  15. Never heard of this Dani before.

    I read all the links you gave out in this post.

    Doesn't seem like someone I'd be interested in following/listening/reading any more of.

    In the pastebin leak from her Skype room (on Poetic Stanziel's blog), she's seems like someone I wouldn't have the patience to babysit... It got me wound up just reading her repeatedly asking 'Yes or No?', and when asked what the question was, refusing to answer, stating that;

    "[the purpose of this project is] It's continuation. Anything other than that I am keeping on a need to know basis".

    Poetic says some pretty questionable stuff on his blog a lot of the time, but I think in this regard it was right on the money. Dani's conversation there just WREAKS of an unbalanced character.

    I really don't agree with her F├╝hrer-esq approach to leading a community site. I understand that it is yours, and that obviously you should be protective over it. But then there's "protective", and "controlling"... And they're DEFINITELY not the same thing.

    She also seems shocked that, after CCP Manifest realised that she had publicly called one of his colleagues a whore, that he retracted the offering of the collectors edition... It's like going up to someone you've known well for two years, and calling his wife a slut, and not understanding when they get annoyed.

    Unfortunately the world is made up of objects, systems and beliefs that take decades to build, but only seconds (or sentences) to destroy.

    Oh well.


  16. Someone played a song that offended Dani. So what did Dani do? She exploded and instead of focusing on the issue she had, she decided to throw shit all around the room. No fucks given. See you later.

    1. It's not as simple as that.

    2. It kinda was as simple as that though (before her follow up). I can understand she was upset but it's Eve - Eve is upsetting by default. If she'd thrown her toys out the pram about the stream in question (and about CCPs reasons for choosing that stream to cut to) she'd have her collectors edition and an apology, an improvement in the process and have been much more plugged into the community as well.

      Sympathy for the original upsetting act? Definitely.

      Sympathy for then going after a CCP employee who we've all been told (in no uncertain terms I might add) is not fair game? I'm afraid not.

    3. It's almost as simple as that. Whatever legitimate gripes she had, she chose to behave like an idiot.

    4. You are correct Jester it's not as simple as that, yet it is. The path that lead Dani to rage quit wasn't a single instance but a series of instances spanning a longer period of time. Some of these instances seem (after reading the paste bin text) to be self created.

      I've been in EVE for over 6yrs. Yes there are bigotted, mysoginistic asshats in and amongst us. If you live your life with a persecution complex then it is likely to become true. EVE is not for everyone and it does require a bit of thick skin. This doesn't excuse the asshats. In my alliance we have kicked people for racists beliefs or statements (with evidence). We do what we can to make our own area of influence better. If more people or alliances do this, then CCP little more than just watch for alliances/corps/people that don't as they will inevitably band together.

      While there is shit in EVE, Dani created some of the issues that she encountered. I liked her for her community involvement. Certainly something to admire, but you can't be self serving at the same time. This she evidently was. Also, a personal attack on someone else is just inexcusable whether they are a CCP employee or not.

  17. It's a shame to see a prominent community member go. I can't help but sympathize - EVE is riddled with racism and sexism and I can completely understand how that can drive a person away, even when the last straw was simply an accident.

    What I don't understand is how that same person can then jump in bed with the misogynists in calling CCP Mintchip, essentially, a whore. She's made herself part of what she professes to hate.

    Still, her hypocrisy doesn't excuse our own - the EVE community's - bad behavior. Each of us has a responsibility to condemn racists and sexists among us if we truly want EVE to be a better place.

    1. This is really what it comes down to. No, Dani isn't perfect and probably handled this whole situation poorly. However, the issues that caused her behavior are completely legitimate, and attacking her won't change that.

    2. "No, Dani isn't perfect and probably handled this whole situation poorly"

      Probably? PROBABLY? Are you so biased that you think calling a CCP employee a whore is somehow borderline OK? The employee in question has never passed judgement on Dani but Dani saw fit to publicly attack her. What would happen if a CCP employee called Dani a whore? Would you go around using "PROBABLY" again? Or would you be screaming at the top of your voice about how that employee must be sacked? Your head must surely be residing in a dark place upon your person.

      "However, the issues that caused her behavior are completely legitimate"

      No. Firstly, playing a crap rap song that is widely played and listened to, or Dani choosing to play a game with casual racists is not a valid cause for Dani's disgusting behavior. Dani's behavior is out of line, just like SOME of those she complains about.

      Playing music that is widely accepted in Western culture (especially in Dani's cultural surroundings) is not an issue of CCP's, it's an issue for all of Western culture. Take it up with those who create and constantly publicize that music, not CCP.

      Naturally, due to Dani's outburst at CCP Mintchip, we can discount most sexist issues that allegedly cause Dani grief right? If not, you're asking for one rule for Dani and a rule for the rest of EvE / the world.

      That leaves the casual racism in game that one can witness. And guess what, it's easy to avoid and it's easy to highlight and have action taken by CCP. I haven't witnessed causal racism in game for a long time because I choose to not associate / play with people who partake in such things. Just like in real life, I choose not to hang out with nasty racist assholes. In game, if I do witness racism, it's almost certainly going to be in local, so I report it to CCP. The person is then usually warned / banned from chat channels for a while. Repeat infringements are usually dealt with harsher actions by CCP. This is not to say that it's OK that casual racism occurs in large fleets. It isn't. But there are methods and ways of dealing with it. Calling a CCP employee a whore is definitely not one of them. If Dani was really concerned about this issue I'd expect her, being a prominent member of the community, to be leading by example and informing people on how to deal with it and to highlight this issue in a sensible way.

      "and attacking her won't change that."

      There are very few attacks on Dani in this thread. It's mainly full of people expressing how disgusted they are with her attitude and actions.

  18. uhm, can i have her eve stuff?

    1. As a matter of fact, she IS giving away her stuff, yes. In my experience, it's the mark of a player who truly is never coming back. Examples: TeaDaze didn't give away his stuff that I heard. Mynxee did.

    2. just for the record, i started playing eve in 2005, left it on 2008 and gave away everything, biomassed all chars and closed the account.

      late-2009, gave it another chance, with one very distinct difference, i had grown a thick-skin.

      People need to come to grasps on how EvE shows unrestrained human nature, and the truth is sometimes hard to swallow.

    3. Gave my stuff away too, certain I'm never coming back again. Yeah, that didn't last long :p Anyway, standard rage quit and exploding over what wasn't even CCP's fault in the first place, calling the race card, while tearing apart a CCP employee. Sorry, no care given from me for this one.

  19. End of the day it's fragile egos, and drama. A part of EVE yes, but this is a little absurd. To say CCP deliberately played that track specifically to rid her, well, that's delusional. She had a chance to bow out gracefully while still making her position clear. I just can't ignore the volume of hypocritical diatribe. She must have issues with radio, TV and any other media source that may play certain genres of music.

    1. Deliberately targeting? No. Brainlessly insensitive? Absolutely. The fact that she threw an undignified fit doesn't mean that there aren't problems.

  20. I don't know any of these people either in game or personally but you don't "ragequit" something at a future date. If you are truly outraged about something that happens then you quit immediately. To delay departure means you are just throwing tantrum and/or engaging in a PR stunt.

    1. I don't think that she even has a space left in the community after the shitfit she threw.

      Her reputation is in shambles and it will get even worse if she even dares to suggest it was just a big show.

  21. CCP has a problem with racism that it doesn't seem to want to acknowledge. It manifests itself in sometimes subtle ways. For example, the only blacks represented in the game are the Brutor. Think about that. The only blacks in the game are, literally, brutish slaves.

    It took a lot of eve-o threads to get them to do the right thing and make dark skin colors available for other character blood lines (not many people remember the changes that were made to the character creator). Go to the character creator and play around with Brutor faces. See how narrow you can get the lips and nose base in comparison to every other race. Go on, try it! All the other variations within races start with a distinctive look, but it can be easily modified so that it doesn't resemble the original at all (look up Nguyen Phred; he's an Achuran who is now a freckle faced red headed white guy). Not Brutor though. And no other group within any of the races starts with a skin color darker than the lightest skinned Asians. Did no one from the Indian subcontinent make it into the far future? No one from the middle East? No one from North Africa? No one from South America? Seriously?

    Are they engaged in KKK-style racism? No, of course not. It's just the typical northern European form of racism. A quiet but pervasive view that blacks are just not up to the standards of whites. I'll never forget going to the Netherlands at Xmas time and seeing Black Pete (Zwarte Piet). I couldn't believe the guy I saw wasn't getting his ass kicked for walking around in blackface until someone explained to me what the deal was. That lead to some incredibly uncomfortable conversations with Amsterdammers who explained, with genuine feeling, that they weren't racists. It was just that all blacks were criminals and couldn't be trusted to be responsible members of society. I'm dead serious. For a guy from the US South, it was like talking to my grandfather with all the racial epithets removed from the conversation.

    These sorts of conversations always assume that racism means something from a movie about southern Mississippi, that it is overt, that it involves restrictions on rights. The reality is, Europeans and Russians are every bit as racist, if not more so, than anyone from the US, and that racism is covert and takes a million forms. There have been a lot of articles out recently about blacks in Sweden and other northern European countries. Check them out.

    For this particular conversation, we're focused on skin color. But this same thing is happening to Jewish people. The number of Jewish slurs I've seen in this game far outnumber the racial ones. The excuses made for doing so are galling and so clearly flawed, it never fails to make me think that the world hasn't made any progress at all. CCP doesn't seem to participate directly in this. One wonders, though, why the only religion in EVE is clearly an extension of the Christian church. Though, I guess that makes sense if no one from the middle East, India, southern Asia, or north Africa made it into the far future.

    1. Each empire has its own religion(s). Most of them are based on eastern philosophies and are secondary to that empires culture and political systems. Just because the only religion in Eve you recognize is the massive theocracy of Amarr doesn't make it the only religion.

      As for non-white/black/asians they are there just not as prominently as they could have been. The Amarr were Persians but got pushed into being space-romans for whatever stupid reason. The Intaki originally had some Indian characteristics but this too has been completely muted over time. The Ni-Kunni are clearly North-African/Middle-Eastern in appearance, even more so than before. Not sure how you could miss that one.

    2. You got to be kidding me... Saint Nicolas is one of the oldest W-European traditions, as childfriendly as can be and you're one of those few people who try to make it about rac(e)/ism??!
      This ridicules everything you say on this subject. You want to appear intelligent on the subject but all you show is complete ignorance.
      This is not the place for such a discussion so I'm going to end with this, but with your oversensitive world view you cannot function in this day and age, and especially should avoid everything -internet- while fingerpointing left and right. The "typical N-EU form of racism" annoys me to no end, not even going to start about the "The reality is, Europeans and Russians are every bit as racist". Please take your couch philosophy elsewhere.

      Dani overreacted in a bad way, you seem to be in the same boat with your blame/guilt game. And the Brutor faces? My goodness man, do you hear yourself?!
      It's a sci-fi game, stop being overly sensitive and trying to unravel some greater plot against people of different color. SIGH

    3. All that shit you typed? That dude just 360 no scope headshot it.

    4. Well, of course there are racists in Europe, too, but it's not fair to over-simplify things. For example, in Germany about 5 of 1000 people are black. That means, you don't meet them often. For example, we have a hard time to read black people's mimics, because we never learned to, due to lack of exposure. So it feels uneasy to talk to one, face one, no matter if you are racist or not. As strange as that may sound to you.

      Btw, the racism here is mostly targetted against immegrants from the neighboring countries like Poland due to fear of them stealing "our" jobs. If you hear racists talk, black don't register much on their scale.

      Saying northern Europeans see blacks as inferior is funny, considering most simply don't care about them: Aside from France with the highest population of about 3-10%, Netherland 3%, England 2%, Germany 0.5%, the other countries seem to have a even lower percentage. I can't comment on the anectode of Zwarte Piet, except that on my visits to Netherland I didn't experience any racism - but my observation were mainly among students.

      Long story short: the ethnic distribution in iceland doesn't differ that much. So their lack of a "fair" selection of races doesn't need to imply malice (i.e. racism), but probably simply ignorance (i.e. they never thought much about it).

    5. Zwarte Piet is very obviously a relic from the Netherlands colonial time (in which the country was *very* heavily engaged in slave trade btw), the figure only appeared in the 19th century.

      Maybe people don't associate this custom with racism nowadays but of course it rests entirely on a racist stereotype of what "moors" are like (lazy, inattentive, stupid, occasionally funny/to be made fun of, ... and of course servants to the white man).

      If you don't recognize these stereotypes as "obviously black" anymore then I guess that's a good sign how far society has come but it doesn't change that they are conserved in the character of Zwarte Piet.

  22. I think I'm missing context here. When I read "The Eve Online community is not a place where _I_ am wanted or appreciated.", I sure hope she means "people like me", because jumping from a song to a personal attack? Yikes. That would make her seem taking herself (whoever she is, I rarely get into EVE stuff outside of EVE, and time and again it proves to be a good decision) way too seriously.

    Also complaining about EVE not being misogynistic (I agree), but then claiming a CCP employee is a whore? How can she even mention the word "hypocrite" and miss _this_? I'm at a loss for words.

    I feel like there's probably a lot of stuff that built up there over time, but someone needs to breathe and count to 10 before posting.

  23. I'm confused by the conection about CCP not doing enough to stop racist, sexist, ist ist things.(which is totaly valid) And I'm going to sperg about a girl they hired?(which is a good enough reason for CCP not be able to help you anymore) That to someone only superficially aware of things comes off as someone being jealous. Did Dani ever try to get hired by CCP, say for a comunity rep position recently?

  24. Its a shame that EvE has to be a playground for american racial tensions and politics. You guys spout the majority of this crap regardless if its some carebear that just got blown up in local or pvpers "horsing around" on comms. But when shit hits the fan americans are the first the feign shock and outrage. If you could get your society sorted out in the first place we wouldn't have to log in to see things like "i need go jew" or "PL just got raped" in corp chat.

    1. Yes because its the Americans that were the first to associate Jews with money. Learn to history.

  25. I suspect that most of the people commenting that Dani needs a thicker skin, or shouldn't be this upset, or whatever, are themselves white men. Like Louis CK said, "you can't even hurt my feelings".

    My point is, white guys like us - like me - aren't really in a position to judge how a black woman gets to react to slurs against her race and her sex, especially in a culture (both in-game and outside) that is largely blind to its institutionalized sexism and misogyny.

    1. When you don't allow others to sympathize with your position, you don't get sympathy.

    2. Well Dani can start showing people how it's done when she stops bashing fellow females first. So a female got a job you wanted do you

      a) say yay that may open up future jobs for people like me or

      b) jelously bash her and repeat every misogynist rumor you ever heard about that fellow female?

      Tired of excuses, Dani had a ton of good points but she needs to clean up her own misogyny before complaining. Am female and disgusted by Danis behaviour on that

    3. White guys like us - like me - are in a position to be smart enough to be able to call something bullshit, if its bullshit. Judging someone actions isn't judging the person.

  26. I am tired of this stuff. That she could even be annoyed that someone would say to her: (paraphrased) You called a colleague of mine effectively a hooker or worse, in a very public way, and therefore as a spokesperson of that company I can no longer offer you any more than an apology for our airing of a podcast containing an inappropriate song.

    If you want to disprove a stereotype it helps greatly to not be seen embodying that stereotype while raging about it. Eve isn't a game for the thin skinned. even without the "political correctness" issues it has there are people who will blow up your shit for the fun of it because they can blow your shit up for the fun of it. When you rage about it the trolls laugh.

    The response on twitter was fine and appropriate. The rant on the blog? Whiny disgruntled woe is me, all the world hates me crap tends to make me actually hate you because somehow the world is about you. News flash you ran a decent podcast about a marginally successful (though really good, wouldn't trade it for the world) video game. The larger world doesn't give half a shit about you, and the smaller world of the eve community only cares a little. That is life get over yourself and you may find happiness

    Jester I understand this is your thought space, but why comment here publicly on what was an unfortunate mistake on CCP's part and a ragefit meltdown on her's? What can you add to the discussion, and more importantly how does this serve the greater eve community at all to bring another platform for rage to spew forth from. your views are logically expressed here, but what purpose do they really serve your blog and the community of followers you have beyond saying how you feel about her exit?

    In other words Jester, was it that slow a news day?

  27. I'm well out of the loop obviously but it is worth observing that there was an opportunity here for Dani to drive home a teaching point to both CCP and the community in a smart and potentially effective way. Ragequitting is not that way.

    Ruar suggests early in this comments thread that Dani believes her being a female factored into CCP not giving her site Fansite status. That would be hard to believe. Quite a few influencers in CCP did not like me much after I got on the CSM, and I was highly critical many times on my (now defunct) blog Life in Low Sec of how they managed their business and their game, yet that blog got and kept Fansite status through all of that. This suggests that gender did not influence CCP's decision.

    All that aside, I am mainly in agreement with you as regards Dani, Jester. She gave a lot for the community and was fun and charming when I interacted with her but in more recent times it seems she has simply let the negative aspects of the community get too far under her skin. Too bad, really, but it's her decision to quit and more power to her for doing what she thinks is right. And it probably IS right for her. From personal experience, I will simply observe that once the community and CCP begin to give you a rash, it's hard to get over it. :P

    -- Mynxee

  28. This whole situation is the "tempest in a teapot" but unfortunately, when you are in the public eye, a fart can make the news.

    Dani was my motivation for getting into podcasting and whether you call her the "Queen of EVE Podcasts" in jest or with some respect, she worked her ass off for the EVE community.

    We at High Drag have respect for her and the work she did. I'll miss her assistance whenever I needed her help or to get her opinion. I'm just sorry that things ended the way they did.

  29. "It's a doubly sad situation because the proverbial straw here wasn't something CCP did on purpose."

    No, it is not. Sexism is in DNA of the company. Intentional or not is not important for such cases, actually its even worse because it was not on purpose, because this kind of behavior is what ccp is, not what they do for marketing.

    Still, as you said, you don´t love in slices, so I still love ccp, but Dani nailed it imho very much. I can understand her rage quit. With so many awesome slices and so many rotten slices you don´t to just drift apart. You will split up with rage and explosions.

    1. "No, it is not. Sexism is in DNA of the company."

      Any proof for that? You realize 2 of 4 parts of Dani's rage is about how they hired a woman and then defended her against Dani's slander?

    2. Sorry, if I am ignorant here, but understanding that the singer is black himself (correct me if I am wrong here), can someone explain to me why the song is considered racist anyhow?

    3. Never have I read so much bullshit in so few words, Tenris.

      Produce some quality substantiated evidence for your claim that CCP is racist through and through (as your DNA claim clearly implies) or retract your particularly nasty and vile accusation.

      And this

      "actually its even worse because it was not on purpose"

      is utterly ridiculous. An oversight is worse than flat out purposeful racism? You are either an idiot or lacking in real life experiences.

      I can see why you side with Dani though, as you too apparently like to make things up and look to hang anyone for even the slightest oversight. So sad.

    4. Whether or not the song was originally racist (considering the singer) is largely irrelevant. That it found its way into a CCP feed by and for (mostly) white people gives the airing of that song an unsavory, racist context.

      Then there's the inescapably sexist context to the word "bitch."

  30. "Lord of the Flies"

    EvE is deliberately set up to encourage that sort of environment. It's the sort of game most CCP devs want to play, and their players want to play. Yes, there are some external rules (eg CONCORD / hi-sec, certain naming and profanity policies), but for the most part it's a rough-and-tumble world where a certain amount of bullying, pack-forming and the like is not only tolerated but encouraged. Which explains CCPs somewhat ad-hoc external policing: they tend to let stuff continue until something egregious is brought to their attention at which they step in and tell the bickering boys to play nice.

    A consequence of this is that in-game behaviour is *always* going to extend beyond the game. Real people are attached to these virtual assets. Simply by playing EvE, you consent to a certain vulnerability to proxy-griefing.

    Which is not to justify direct attacks on the player. Direct contempt for other players, which includes malicious RL stereotyping, should be seen as breaching the sandbox. This is RL misbehaviour which deserves censure & correction.

    The thornier issue is "private chat". Is it still offensive behaviour if none of the witnesses are offended? I think an argument can be made for "yes", but we must be careful: remember that while you or I don't stereotype or make hasty judgements or knock other people in private, that mob over there always do.

  31. I was listening to Sindel Pellion on the Crossing Zebras’ podcast recently and they were talking about fleet porn.

    I think she made the most grown up and sensible suggestion which was Eve is about playing with a community of people you like playing with. Fleet porn isn’t a problem for her because she doesn’t fly in fleets that link it.

    CCP can police forums, local etc – if you report racist, sexist or other offensive behaviour they will ,and do, ban people. But ultimately it’s up to you to pick the people you want to play with.

    If you say Dani is charming I’ll take your word for it.

    However, I’m struggling to find sympathy with her over this post. You cannot with any credibility say that CCP have a problem with sexism in the same breath call a CCP employee a whore only to whine when CCP take action against you for it. I can’t think of a more atypical anti-women insult.

  32. I don't doubt that D must have encountered regular racist and sexist slurs, particularly as a Goon. I seem to recall, however, her cheerful use of (or laughter at) the word "retard" during her otherwise fine SCL commentating. These are things that make me suspect crocodile tears.

    She may also simply have grown bored with EVE, and this was as good an excuse to quit as any other.

    I haven't walked in her shoes, though, so I couldn't definitively diagnose the situation. She says it's been a long time coming, and though she is a Goon, she may be giving her honest perspective.

    1. Correction: my wife reminded me that what ticked us off in Dani's SCL coverage were the repeated ass-rape jokes, not the use of the r-word.

      This is the only reason I know to take Dani's disgruntlement with a grain of salt. Goons are trained to attack perceived vulnerabilities--it's in their DNA, we might say--and Dani certainly profited off that culture for a long time.

      Good on her for having second thoughts.

  33. As George Takei would say: Oh my!


    Jester you just opened up Pandora's box. But to be fair, Dani opened it up before you.

    This is like the recipe of a perfect storm:
    - Take a song with a ... difficult content (to put it mildly)
    - A disgruntled community contributor
    - Bad judgement on both sides
    - Letting ego get the better of you

    Oh boy...

  34. I do not know much about Dani but to use racism and sexism, which I view as serious issues in order to get one over on CCP is dispicable. She had a well known podcast and yet did she raise her concerns about sexist and racist CCP on there? Instead she rips into a third party with nothing more than spite and hate continually repeating what are after all 'rumours' and probably not true.
    Thank Jester for opening my eyes to the vile Dani who as she has said 'the internet does not forget'. CCP didn't take the correct action as she should quite clearly have been immediately perma-banned from eve online.


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