Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
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Friday, September 20, 2013

Solipsist assistant to the Quote of the Week

GM Grimmi delves into philosophy with his latest post.  I reproduce it here in full because it amuses me quite a bit:
Hello everyone,

I just want to clear up one little misunderstanding here once and for all.

You cannot impersonate yourself.

Telling others that you’re an alt of a character you own or telling them what other characters you own is not a EULA/TOS violation and will not get you banned.

With the possible exception of using your own alt to mimic your character using spelling trickery in order to trick people into accepting duels with a high skill monster when they thought they were going to duel with puny noob or something like that, and possibly some extreme weird and outlandish edge case we haven’t thought of yet – you cannot impersonate yourself. The example above would not even be self-impersonation as much as it would just be a simple spelling trickery type of deal where it doesn’t really matter who owns the characters in question.

Impersonating yourself does not follow good logic since you are yourself and that is not a violation of any policies we have.

Thanks for reading.

Lead GM Grimmi
Happy now?  And still more coming on this topic.  But at least the solipsists will calm down, I hope.


  1. It's always nice to hear from the GMs.

  2. Not happy now, no.

    I'd like to see Ali Aras's wording from post 20 in that thread adopted. Then I'll be happy.

  3. Why don't they just add to the end of the TOS and EULA something like this:

    "Just to clear up misunderstands and rules lawyering stupidity. All that comes down to we have rules, the interpretation of them is up to us, GMs are people and not perfect. Rules evolve, society changes and we will make decisions based on all we can, our decisions are final, life isn't fair, HTFU or GTFO."

    Yeah, we would lose some people supposedly "making content" and I think the majority of the EVE population would agree, it would not be a large loss. We would gain more over all. You can still scam, lie, cheat and steal in EVE, and like in life, as the laws change, the people wanting to break it have to get smarter and change with it.

  4. Each successive non-change change makes CCP looks weak. However, each successive refinement of the policy has also made them look saner.

    When you run an enormous virtual star sector where pretend people fly fake spaceships, appearing silly probably comes with the territory, particularly when one has to fend off nonsensical hypotheticals from rules lawyers.

    Not bad, CCP.

  5. So, it's ok for a character to impersonate a character? And not for a character to impersonate a player, or vice versa? Or is the problem players impersonating other players? wtf why how fucking hard can it be to clarify.

    And how do you draw the line, since there is no practical way of proving that two characters are owned by the same person? My roommate is using my computer (read: IP) until his new one comes. What if I claim one of my characters is not the same player as another of my characters? Does that violate the EULA? Assuming yes, then how do they determine that a character is not the same player as another character? Because they said so??? What if one says yes and another no, and it's a single player just refusing to condone absurdity? Are they going to threaten punitive action for refusing to admit you are yourself? In consistency on the part of CCPs, I am all for getting the forum trolls to shut the hell up with their unoriginal bandwagonism, but goddamn.

  6. "You cannot impersonate yourself."

    I dunno 'bout that but I sure do a great parody...

  7. This whole TOS/EULA clarification makes me confused. One persons logic is not necessarily another's. Then again I am left playing in a corp/alliance that doesn't necessarily play in my timezone. So my characters talk to each other in order to maybe lure those other people into conversation. Could I be impersonating myself as a stupid miner/ratter/trader/pvper when my other toon is mocking me and we get into arguments? I don't know.... so the corp/alliance will be pretty quite.

  8. "
    #20 Posted: 2013.09.13 21:10 | Edited by: Ali Aras
    Posting publicly what I'll be saying in private as well:

    My thoughts are more along the lines of no. #2, thoughtful objections to the TOS itself. I like mynnna's wording, and here's where I'm coming from on it:

    The TOS on impersonation should (1) prohibit players pretending to be CCP or people connected to CCP, and (2) it should prohibit players from using UI tricks to make their characters too difficult to distinguish from another character.

    That's it. Players lying and pretending to be other players or organizations or representatives of those organizations should be completely allowed. After all, if I am pretending to be someone else or someone else's representative, my mark can check in with the original as long as I'm not violating point no. 2 above. If I am, then *that's* the TOS violation that protects the player.

    People with good reputations can protect them by petitioning any clones who're scamming and by reminding their customers to triple-check before doing business with them. Access to a character in order to edit a bio or send a mail can verify that you're working with the right person. Someone wants to broker supercaps on their alts? Great, they list their names in their main's bio. Someone wants to rent out all of Vale? Great, they list the approved rental officers in the corp description or a bio or something.

    Similarly, if someone apps to my corp with the text 'June Ting's Cyno Alt' and I don't check with June to see whether they're actually who they say they are, I'm liable for anything that happens afterwards. It's no different from accepting an app from someone who says they're a total carebear who wants to come to mining ops without checking their API to see what they *do* at said mining ops. Sure, it's a lazy way to awox, but margin trading is a lazy way to scam and *that* still works. If it's too good to be true, it probably is."

    that post is so good!
    that all i need to say

  9. just get the entire rule scrapped already, geez

  10. All they need to do is fix the damn font so that l doesn't look like I. It's a ten minute job.

    And then it's done. Everything's done. Nobody can complain about getting scammed by "similar names". If you can't read and double-check names, that's your fault. Nobody gets reported for , and . shenanigans in contracts. Nobody gets reported for stuff like naming your BC "Impairor". So nobody should be reported for name manipulation either.

  11. This has blown out of proportion so badly I cannot even see its edges anymore...

  12. GMs now want to use a real life warm-bodies as the definition of a player. Unless GMs are comparing the login IPs for my accounts, they have no way of verifying that I am or am not who I claim to be, without contacting the characters and asking. Even if they are looking at IPs, it's not foolproof.

    GM Karidor was using the Character as the definition of a 'player' for the very reason that A) Petitioning someone for impersonation and then having nothing happen to the character could out the character as a scammer. B) They can't reasonably verify if two different accounts are the same real life person. While this was the cause of the 'you can not impersonate yourself' ruling, it is enforceable whereas this ruling is not.

    The two solutions I see are: Drop this whole impersonation nonsense entirely, or move to a model of 1 account with an unlimited number of characters and overhaul the API and pricing models to match. Then limit 1 person to 1 account and enforce impersonation across accounts.


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