Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Thursday, January 9, 2014

Another way of saying "never"

Kirith Kodachi has a new blog banter out, and it's a subject near and dear to my heart. First, he points out the 30,000 logged-in users plateau that EVE has been on since March 2009, nearly five years ago. Then he jumps to the meat of the question:
Is there any path for CCP to follow to raise those numbers upwards for a sustained period, or is EVE going to enter a decline to lower logged in numbers from this point? How soon will we see an end to this plateau? Months? Years? Or will you argue that 'never' is a possibility? Or you can look at the root causes of the plateau and tackle the question if it could have been avoided or shortened if CCP had taken different actions in the past.
Ok. I'm going to give this topic a somewhat more cynical treatment than I've done in the past.

As frequent readers know, for the last couple of years I've been running a little program that tracks EVE's logged-in user count and gives me running daily averages. It's a fun tool for my occasional posts on the subject, for watching live events happen(1), and for other such things. Two or three times a year, I pull out the data, dust it off, and look for any conclusions that can be drawn from it. I last did this back in September. In that post, I bemoaned a tremendous lost opportunity. Following Retribution's masterfully-designed bounty system, EVE's logged-in user count had hit a sustained peak of 34k, an 11% increase over historical values. What's more, it was holding that value over the course of several months! It was all on the Odyssey expansion to build on that plateau. We were in danger of finally leaving 30k behind.

And then it all fell apart. Here's the full year view.

I've picked up the graph from the release of Retribution on 4 December 2012. Look at that mountain rise in its wake! For this particular metric, Retribution stands as the most successful expansion CCP has ever released for EVE Online. After that, though, you've got brief spikes for the release of Odyssey and its point release later that summer. Then a massive summer slump. Then Rubicon rescues things briefly, doing more good with the promise of its release than the actual release itself, a pattern that was also seen with Odyssey.

The graph ends on 1 January 2014, but I don't think it takes a genius to guess where we're probably headed over the next few months. Hint: have a look at the Odyssey graph for the same period after its release.

I'm becoming increasingly of the opinion that the problem with EVE isn't a lack of marketing. I'm coming increasingly to believe that people have heard of EVE. People have read about EVE. People have tried EVE. People have played EVE. For a game of its particular size, EVE is one of the most written-about games in all of gaming. Enough digital ink has been spilled about EVE Online to fill several convenient hard disk drives. That isn't the game's problem. Hell, in talking to gamers outside of EVE's community over the last few months, the most common thing people have said to me is "EVE is way more fun to read about than to play."

Yeah. Ouch.

EVE's problem is that most people who try EVE and play EVE eventually decide they don't like EVE. And as a result, CCP is getting further and further locked in to a marketing strategy of selling the game to the same block of customers that have given them money at some point in the past. Meanwhile the customers themselves are getting locked into a strategy where they try the new expansion if it appeals to them, they get bored with it, they unsubscribe and play other games for a while, a new expansion comes along that piques their interest, and they subscribe again to try it out. Then they get bored with that one too and the cycle repeats.

CCP Seagull is trying desperately to break out of this cycle with a big swing-for-the-fences play... but I'm no longer convinced it's going to work. Matter of fact, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it's not going to work.

Yeah, I warned you this was kind of a cynical view. Sorry about that.

Anyway, as long as EVE expansions are geared to sell the game to the same flock of existing and former customers, I personally believe EVE is never going to break out of that 30k plateau of logged-in players. What's more, I'm also coming to believe the vast bulk of EVE players don't want it to. I think the bulk of you out there are perfectly happy knowing who all the big groups are, who the important players are, and what to expect out of your game other than a few new major features per year, from now until the end of time.

Or at least until the next internet spaceship game comes out, whichever happens first.

Where did the plateau come from? A new and unpleasant theory has been building up in the back of my head to explain it. But that theory needs a while longer to cook. Stay tuned for that... eventually.

Thanks for the blog banter question, Kirith!

(1) During the most recent one on November 7, it hardly spiked at all...


  1. CCP cannot change the way to sell EVE because they rely on EVE Online in order to fund the other projects.

    If Valk sells out as hell, and that dependency disappears then I think EVE will not change ever, they'll keep it to actual players to keep a good press.

    If they keep relying in EVE online instead they'll have to change the game, FTP model and more secure sections of game. And this really will be the dead of EVE as everyone who play MMOG know this game and the ones who wants to play this game are already doing, and those will left the game, and the others won't play it because the game is boring for them.

  2. I have found my own eve activety dropping alot lately, and thinking about it i think alot of my current problems with eve can be said with four words:

    EVE is too small.

    Say i want to do some exploration as a new player ( a proplem in our corp currently), cool, lets get a explo frig and go exploring (in high sec as the sites dont need high skills). But what do you see? Systems filled with 20+ ppl and no sites to be seen, and when you finally find a site you have 2 guys already inside.
    Same with Ice mining, you go do some, you see its barren or then there is a bot army inside doing the last few roids.
    Most belts within 10 jumps of eny trade hub are mostly barren of enything but veldspar (sometimes that too).
    Eve is just too small (high sec being the worst offender) even if we add more players to eve, where will they fit? Dont expect them to just go to null or low most will stay in high sec or leave game.

    1. I'm in a wide open space, I'm standing

      I'm all alone and staring into space
      It's always quiet thru' my ceiling
      The roof comes in and crashes in a daze
      I empathise, worlds are too small.

      "I'm in a wide open space, it's freezing
      You'll never get to heaven with a smile on your face from me
      I'm in a wide open space, I'm staring
      There's something quite bizarre I cannot see"

  3. It is part player and part CCP.

    For a long time CCP couldn't care less what the Eve players said or did. They has the $$$$ signs in their eyes and were focused on the mega bucks that Dust was going to fetch in. They were also spending a lot on WoD. I honestly believe that after working on Eve for so long Hilmar was bored and wanted to try something new. To make matters worse for a long time they didn't bother with good house keeping so as they rammed new features in the code got harder and harder to work with and they didn't keep the software stack up to date.

    Incarna was nothing more than a beta test for WoD avatars. Eventually the players revolted and we had the summer of rage. This was a combination of frustration at the lack of content added to eve, the half arsed implementation of most stuff and of the disconnect between CCP and players (Greed is Good, $1000 pants).

    This resulted in CCP finally going back and 'fixing' some of the massive problems in Eve. FW changes seem to have been a long term success, and there have been thousands of little fixes. Now we hit the new problem.

    Both CCP and the players are scared of real changes. CCP doesn't have the swagger to make massive changes in case the players go nuts again (and in many cases because the code is so bad big changes are impossible). The players look at Incarna, Dust etc. and just don't have the confidence that CCP are able to make good gameplay decisions any more. When was the last real content added to Eve? I don't mean a ship or polishing an existing feature (both very important) I mean something brand new?

    I would argue the last was Incursions and that was back in November 2010. You are never going to attract new players with 10 year old missions and terrible starter experience. its not about dumbing down the game to attract WOW kids. We need brand new content to hype existing players AND to make the new player experience more interesting.

  4. How many ex-players would play more and get more involved if they could do some serious industry and eve market playing? How many would if they could effectively manage a corp and/or alliance? A significant number, I'd wager. Not 100k, but 10k might be realistic. Where are the damn updates for the science & industry interface people have been bitching about for years? Where are the corp roles & management UI updates people have been bitching about for years? Never mind the POS revamp.

    EVE might not need Jesus features anymore but it sure as hell needs some Shackleton features. Features that come back and rescue folks from the hellhole they find themselves trapped in dealing with EVE's clunky mechanics in so many different areas not covered by space spam deployable modules and ship/module rebalancing. When is all that going to happen? According to those recent minutes things at CCP have devolved to design-by-committee. That can't be good. I'd trade player-built stargates and roving wormholes to Jove space in a heartbeat for completely revamped Science & Industry and Corp Mgmt UI makeovers.

    That takes people, however, and CCP seems to be very reluctant to apply manpower to what ails EVE ever since the Incarna debacle. I don't see it happening any time soon, I really don't.

  5. yeah, right, Jester. This game has been sliding towards a balance between Sandbox and Themepark ever since m0o Corp forced CCP to stop being a bunch of cowboys.

    thing is though, it is the social engine that needs work on: mainly corporate infrastructure.

    I'm a bit amazed corp members can shoot each other. I mean, years ago i thought it was a cute fun way to pew, play test DPS and tank, and other fun things in the name of a game we love to play among trusted friends.

    And the ability to wardec willy nilly...

    And the corporate factory/lab functions are just bananas. How is anyone supposed to understand all the gobbledeegook with pathetic documentation as the cherry on top?

    Coming from personal experience, when i hire recruits they follow a well worn run of eventually splitting off to do solo then fleet pvp then nullsec alliance goodness. This from carebear roots, although they mightily detest mining in the end.

    One hopes, and i surely do, that there are folks out there who like being carebears, that embrace the risk inherent in suicide ganking even of large seemingly safe targets in 1.0 space being possible.

    Yet, how many potential customers has CCP strangled in the cradle from ignoring dealing with the social engines they have pretty much left in beta-programming mod to cater to shiny new ship crowd?

    Hopefully, CCP Seagull is aware that their social networking code needs more than just pie in the sky superstargates.

    hopefully, that talk about improving corporate/personal access/sharing was more than just another drunk ass CCP dev promising™ floating trial balloons.

  6. Being able to walk around as a human character in stations and interact with other human characters in meaningful ways would broaden the appeal. It is a shame the small group that are the current players sabotage any attempts to make the game appeal to a wider audience.

  7. What if I showed you a graph over that same time period that showed a very slight, but steady, rise in the number of paid subs? Say 2.5% growth over that time?

    Yet another example of why data doesn't exist in a vacuum. Just one more data point reference could potentially change the entire dynamic of this discussion.

    I'm not saying that such a data point exists, but one thing is clear - we don't know if it does or doesn't. Server usage is only one single data point.

  8. the most common thing people have said to me is "EVE is way more fun to read about than to play."

    Oh my goodness, talk about hitting the nail on the head. I unsubbed all 4 of my accounts and really don't have any interest in returning to Eve, but darn if I can't stop reading Jester's Trek, Nosy Gamer, and a couple other blogs. I absolutely love reading about CCP's adventures, kills of the week, and successes on the RMT front.

    I couldn't agree more that CCP's long view favors null sec blocks (current players) and that in the end they will be all that remains of Eve. Where are the new jump gates going to be constructed, in High Sec you say? Ha! That will be the day.

    I strongly encourage those entrenched in the game to continue to fight any of CCPs efforts to morph into a more sustainable or noob-friendly experience. Frankly, it's interesting watching you guys kill your own game.

  9. 110% agreement here, Jester.

    As a matter of fact, I sincerely tried this year to come back to the game and found out, once again, that I couldn't take enough time out of my RL to get deep enough in the game to explore stuff I had not done before.

    For the past 4 years, I mostly have read about EVE (which is indeed quite enjoyable) because each time I tried to play it, I realized anew that it took a huge load of time to
    - build a network of friends
    - attack the learning curve of the game
    - make whatever I wanted to try happen

    Way too much time demands to fit a working family man's schedule.

    For instance, I tried exploration and archeo/data site running and find it enjoyable enough on its own.
    Then I start wondering about the point of it and got many hours of reading about tech2/tech3/boosters research/manufacture.
    Then I realized that, apart from selling the proceeds of my site runs, I would never do anything with it because I don't have the time to setup that kind of industry op on my own or to socialize in a huge corp that does it.
    Lost interest, bam, unsub in a month.

    Eve is not for the casual player and that cuts a big chunk of the market out of it.
    When that is fixed, you will see the number rise above 30k. Until then, I doubt it will.

    In the meantime, I pledged to Star Citizen hoping against hope it will fit my schedule better.

    1. So you were doing something fun, then realized you were inadvertently helping many other people have fun at the same time, and that realization made the whole thing unfun and you quit.

      Life must be uniquely difficult for you.

    2. What he means is that ultimately he realised that it was pointless and that curbed his enthusiasm on the project.

      Some people like to do fun stuff, others want a goal to follow and in his case he realised that his goals would never be achieved.

  10. IMO the new player experience is severely lacking. There is a severe lack of quality pvp options available for new players. The new players are by default exposed only to eve's pve content which is simply not very engaging. Because the new players are not exposed to what makes eve unique and interesting, e.g. the meta game and pvp, they are left with a distorted view of the game - either they leave because they perceive game to be tedious and boring, or they come to expect that pvp is exceptional and not the norm; that pvp only belongs in consensual zones. Lately, CCP has been working real hard to remove the sharp edges of eve - to make the new player experience softer. But the truth is, that when they scrape away the hard edges created by the players, all ccp is left with is the eve's core game play. But eve's core game play - orbit this red square, press f1, is hardly exciting. Its the meta game the players have crafted on to eve that keeps the long terms players interested and coming back, not the core game play. Hence, it is simply not surprising that eve is limited in its appeal. It simply can only hold on to those that are willing persevere and get to the meta game.

  11. It may bit a bit too early to judge the expansion, people did leave for the holidays... But yes, this is concerning.


  12. EVE is more like a strategic game and you need plenty of time to get something done. Casual gamers wont get as much fun as experienced players do. For example: Most casual gamers need a carrot, otherwise they don't know what to do. With that in mind its hard to make this game attractive for the big public. The hole game mechanics would also need to be straight forward and much less complicated. On top of this, has this game a huge training curve and no errors will be forgiven. I think most eve gamers are sick of the carrot games, or want something to get surges of adrenalin.
    30k peoples are a huge number, for this kind of game.

    In short: EVE is a niche product and will stay there. CCP has enough subscriptions to life with pride. I think CCPs goal is to minimize the loss of the subscribers. My 2cents

  13. The post-expansion trend bump and decline is common to all MMOs; nothing unique about that.

    I think where EVE marketing fails is in selling the less-obvious aspects of the game, while the game itself needs to do a better job of being fun in those areas. EVE has the best economy in the genre, but playing the market could be made more fun and less tedious.

    Same for 'crafting'. EVE has the best crafting in terms of making stuff that you can do something with, but again that aspect could be made more fun. 'Housing' is another area.

    The combat isn't going to change, and at this point you either like it or you don't. Plenty do, and EVE is 'working as intended' in that area IMO. CCP needs to fix or expand the stuff around it, so those not just interested in shooting boxes will stick around for more than a few months.

  14. Eve is all sewn up by vets. New entrants must suffer the vertical pecking order for ever, essentially. Horizontal expansion requires more expense-outlay accounts. Hardly enticing.

    I would suggest adding accessible space and also risk-averse humans into the game.

    Space because much of Eve is little used and inaccessible, controlled only by some few long-time vets. Huge, time-dilated battles prove the lack of tactical fluidity. More gates or, my preference, a gate-by passing hyperdrive where expanses may be covered over the course of several days.

    And humans, as a crew intangible, to counter-act purposeless, inconsequential PvP. Capsuleers should suffer "combat aversity" where prolonged ship losses would make it near impossible to crew a ship. This would cause capsuleers to leave combative, ISK-rich alliances and corps in droves thus breaking up large blocks controlled by vets. Skilled PvP'rs, of course, would suffer little or no negative consequence. Newbies would baulk at being used as tackle cannon fodder.

    With access to Eve space and the breakup of corp blocks, Eve would become far more tactical and interesting to new players. Vet players would operate in active, small groups. Eve would be more interesting for everybody, especially new players.

    1. That's one of those things CCP once had intended to implement, but was eaten up by the Incarna debacle later on. But you're totally right, breaking up the big-powerblock-landscape in ZeroZero would make a huge difference to new players and vets alike. Making gameplay much more fun and in terms of technical restrictions less TIDI dependant. Maybe if this whole colonization thing is closely tied to NullSec space it might be the first step back into the direction of revamping NullSec the way you mentioned it and CCP once intended it to do.

    2. So encourage people to be even more risk averse and only fight when they now they'll win. Great.

  15. Great perspective, definitely agree that trying to sell a game to players who have already decided to play something else instead is not a very wise strategy.

    As a new player, I had actually heard very little about the game. What I did know wasn't really correct either, and was influenced by the popular culture that developed in the wake of big AAA competitors. I actually wrote a blog about it here: http://ozoxeve.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/on-eve-online-ultima-online-part-two/ ( it starts in 2009 just beneath the graph ).

    For the most part though, you are spot on. The problem from a marketing perspective isn't that the right audience hasn't heard about EVE, it's that they are ambivalent towards what they have heard or seen. The first trial I gave away went to a buddy who couldn't find time to do anything but AFK mine in a venture. Needless to say, he didn't make it.

    From now on if I steer someone towards the game again, it'll probably be telling them to download mumble and head for Barlegeut. First impressions definitely mean everything, and you're right that if a person's first and only impression of EVE is how boring it is to melt space rocks AFK, then that line isn't going to move.

  16. And we have the same problem we had 3 years ago, in that CCP are really good at promising things will get better and there are big things coming, but then when it turns up it sounds really good (and they will improve it later, they promise), but its a half-baked mess and gets abandoned after a few months.

    Back in 2011 after the Incarna mess, EVE really did need some fixing up, but go back and look at the last few years of expansion stuff on the site - its gone from pages of new things, fixes and interesting new stuff to do, to "we changed some of the numbers on things, added some new ships and some stuff you can drop in space, and bolted on a half-assed Twitch integration."

    They can sell the new expansions well, which is why the upturns on the expansion releases, but it doesn't take players that long to realise its not really changed, and theres just some slightly different ways to do the same things.

    Its getting more and more like an abusive relationship - "It'll be different from now on. There's better things coming in the future. We promise."

    Lets not forget that POS's, Sov Warfare, Wormholes, Missions, Incursions, New Bounties, HiSec Wars, Incarna, DUST integration into EVE, and god knows how many other things were all supposed to be "first steps to new things", but none of it has really happened.

    I really do hope there are better things coming, as EVE needs them, but I have a feeling that Rubicon may have been appropriately named.

  17. "More fun to read about than to play." That is certainly me and Eve (again) these days. I'd rather read what you have to say about it then actually log in and find out for myself. Over the past several years I've covered pretty much all the various aspects of Eve: WH, nullsec (with the Goons, no less), PVE, mining.

    BTW, When I logged into War Thunder this morning there were over 48,000 online. :-)

  18. I guess half this blog banter is a bit self-defeating.
    It's interesting to get a pulse on the outlook of the community about the game but most ideas to increase the bottom line will consist of how the current player base think the game should improve.
    And that is obviously NOT what is required to attract NEW players.

    EVE already has on board the players that are willing and able to commit to handling it's complexity and deepness.
    After all, a big part of what makes EVE unique and challenging is its complexity and deepness.

    Unfortunately, that's also what is cutting out the majority of other players.

    Many willing players like myself are willing but unable to commit enough time to handle that complexity.
    The challenge is just too hard for the resources available.

    CCP cannot tone down the difficulty of the whole game without losing it's soul and its current base.

    But to conquer new markets, it needs to integrate a much less demanding way of playing to get new players introduced and keep casual players in the game.

    How about some sort of playing mode tuned to the rest of us that would integrate seamlessly with the rest of the EVE universe?

    For instance, what if players creating new characters could register them as part of one of the four Empire's navy?
    That type of characters would log in, get assigned to a mission of some sort (cargo/combat/spying-explore), given the fully fitted ship required for the mission and then given a certain time limit to complete it before it resets and put back the character to its home base.

    As the character advances in its career, the player gets the option of accessing more complex game mechanics if he wants.

    Restricted interactions between that type of characters and normal characters, like a muscled up crimewatch system or a perma-buff on the loaned ships, would prevent a slaughter of these newbs.

    A casual player could keep playing in this mode forever if he wants or create a new character to get in the real world on his own.

    Something akin to the training agents but on a permanent basis.

    To make that happen however, the current player base will need to accept that it won't get any new features while this whole thing get developed.
    And that new features will be less frequent as a substantial part of the DEV resources are invested in feeding content in the easy mode careers.

    Just an idea.

    1. That was the best idea I have heard in years. Please post that on the EVE Forums for ideas will you? I'll "like" it as soon as I know it's up.

  19. So are you saying it's time for a "Jesus feature", mate?

    It may just be that there's a limit to the number of people who are prepared to play the kind of intense, involving, demanding game that EVE is, just as there are many fewer people who are prepared to act in a play, even at an amateur level, than there are people who are preprared to go and passively *watch* a play. (And by "play" I mean "play in a way that anyone else even cares about, not AFK mining or running Caldari hi-sec missions over and over and over)

    CCP evidently have a large audience of people who, as you say, find EVE much more interesting to watch than to play. Some of them "play" EVE by mining, hi-sec missioning, etc, just to feel involved even though they're not really except on the superficial level, but an unknown proportion just read about EVE in the gaming media. Perhaps the future growth challenge for New Eden is how to monetise and engage that media audience as much as it is to inspire the 'actors'.

    Sadly, the project to allow EVE's 'audience' a way to engage in the EVE story in a fun, casual, quick-reward way seems to have crashed into the DUSTy mountains of :awesome: arrogance, and burned out on the foothills of treating player feedback as an irritation to be ignored when it can't be evaded.

    1. "(And by "play" I mean "play in a way that anyone else even cares about, not AFK mining or running Caldari hi-sec missions over and over and over)"

      This view is the biggest burden for Eve;s growth. Probably 99% of potential players aren't the sort of players that "anyone else even cares about." How many Call of Duty or Hearthstone players or better yet Farmville players do you care about?

  20. As always I enjoy reading your perspective on the state of development and the player base. Some of your post really hits the nail on the head and maybe thats the idea CCP has for its existing player base. Whack the nails back in place and they will be appeased just enough not to squeak loose.

    I have only been participating in EVE since 2009 (I say participating because the term playing would suggest endless fun as a child feels), however over the last couple years it has started to feel like a second job. And I guess thats probably part of the problem from my perspective. Though I have more or less come to terms with the last few expansions as beneficial overall, the tone of the game remains stagnant and fails to live up to some of the hype some of the wonderfully crafted promotional videos have portrayed.

    After my long day at the office, I have built a routine of sitting down after my family has retired for the evening and basically grind out another day in EVE that has only fleeting moments of the blood pumping adrenaline rushed I used to get in often years past. excitement has wained into composure (even in the most ungodly PVP situations) and I believe that is a huge problem. I now feel like i'm putting in an extra few hours a day at work to get the small satisfaction of ruining someone else's hard earned isk and the rush of adrenaline has become just a small tickle at the end of a shifty smirk. It really is a second job now but I'm paying someone for it.

    Now to complain or criticize without suggestions is bad form, so I have tried to embrace some features and have been temporarily knocked back into place by the hammer for a short time as I feel like i'm coming loose again already. I have really thought about what I think could be done in EVE's existing framework to add something just plain different, but that would be a post of its own, and i'm sure everyone has ideas.

    I have actually started to stream my game time using the TWITCH.TV integration with some mild success and it has brought me a bit closer to parts of the community - but overall I am waiting for the jolt. The shocking change that makes all parts move or band together the defining moment that pulls a carpet out from under you. The kind of change that is monumental in its repercussions redefining how things are done. Maybe that is only going to strengthen the current 30,000 or force another 10,000 to see what they could be missing? I am saying break the predictability in a way that allows one to make a defining choice themselves stay stagnant or take a plunge (we all love to be in control after all) and see how the base reacts.

    All the Ghost sites Relic and Data minnie game implementations feel like the same expected PVE experience. Very predictable and its a mold that needs to be broken and replaced with an unpredictible situation or event - these are the types of things that keep people interested. I guess I would like to choose my own adventure then have it spoon fed to me so that every time I open my mouth another small spoon takes it place. Eventually you get full and need to walk away.

    But to be honest I have committed a lot of time and money to see what is arriving next - but have been underwhelmed by what I see as a very talented group of people at CCP whom have the chops to create a groundbreaking change, but always seem to tread in the shallows because the deep end looks scary.

  21. From my personal experience:
    Eve is one of the game I never recommend to my friends and colleagues. It is such a complicated and hard game to get into, takes so much effort to enjoy. You have to be a special kind of crazy to really like it.
    I am sure some of my friends would persist with advice and help, but would they enjoy it?
    I dont really know.

    Also its a space game. You have to realize an MMO is a niche in gaming already.
    Add in scifi space game and then make it very complex and you get a niche of a niche.
    Frankly I am pleasantly surprised it is still around!

    Most I tell openly what timeframe they have to play it to get anywhere. Which shuts them down easy. To make Eve more accessible they really need to change it a whole bunch, or at least add content that you can do on a lazy sunday afternoon.
    Something quick and fun for inbetween, rewarding and possible in 30 minutes.

    Eve needs rewarding and fun pve laced with a little bit of pvp. It has way too much of the old shoot red brackets to be fun.

    And dont get me started on the latest expansions. Content wise they are laughable.
    They need to push out something new every half year. Really new, like wh space, faction warfare or incursions. Not the shit rebalancing of old stuff and single ships and a module here and there. Dont get me wrong rebalancing is important to, but its really not enough.

    Lets hope the ominous new space mixes things up a bit.

  22. A little addendum. Eves community. Really eves playerbase is alright. But it has a nasty legend around it and feed the beast most times we talk about it. It could use some more positive press, Eve isnt nearly as cutthroat as its made out most times. Not everyone is stealing babys and shooting kittens...

  23. Incarna was the last real attempt to capture a bigger gaming crowd. Unfortunately, it was poorly presented and it didn't really appeal to the entrenched crowd; and was really only the underlying framework of the content that could bring in fresh blood. CCP will get new gamers when it is possible to have avatars interacting productively (ie accomplishing non-trivial goals/tasks) in stations/planets and when it is possible to have more random ppl in hisec feel comfortable social chatting in local w/o worrying they will attract the attention of griefers. Too many players not playing EVE at present want those avatars to dress up and show off and too many refuse to operate where there is no true security *somewhere* aside from sitting in a station buying and selling. The actions needed to bring those ppl into the game are undoubtedly anathema to much of the core PvP crowd that currently supports Eve, and I think CCP will have to make the jump at some point to bring in those 'other' gamers and survive a likely exodus of some of the core crowd because of those actions. The end result, however, will be an Eve universe populated with a more diverse set of players and a bigger dna pool from which to move forward on.

    TL;DR: CCP needs to bite the bullet hard to bring in the wider gaming community that needs their avatars and a security zone.

  24. I agree pretty much, although you have more insight into the actual, factual direction CCP is going to take with the next few expansions in terms of the details and such.

    The only real increases in the playerbase that the game will see is returning players, and the odd new blood players who really haven't heard the game, or have, but have up until now decided its not for them. That said, there must be millions of players who tried before, who might try the game again. Its just upto CCP to offer them new styles/types of gameplay that would appeal to them, where the current offerings fall short.

    The new space they are opening up has the potential to increase interest in the game, but for that to be sustainable interest, it has to appeal to a rather broad set of the player base both current and unsubbed. CCP can either look upon it as a second chance to create some really new EVE gameplay, or can just use it to tack on a few more regions after some gate gets built and enjoy more of the same.

    As for retribution, my anicdotal suggestion for its success is that old carebears who had rage quit may have returned, thinking that the game would be more fair, since they could fight back with isk, instead of with guns. Add to that all the players that thought there might be a real living to be made bounty hunting, and you had enough excitement to last for a while. Of course, both of those never really came to be so they filtered away over the months, but the excitement of that promise was there.

  25. For players with high skill point characters where training a single skill can take a long time, there may be no need to log in much. The politics and meta game that many such players participate in happens as much outside EVE as in it. They are still "playing"...just not in-game. Makes me wonder if there is a meaningful correlation between logged-in user counts and the skill point levels of those characters which are logged in. Are there enough high skill point characters whose players are "meta-playing" to have a negative impact on logged-in numbers? Dunno...looking forward to seeing your theory on this issue.

  26. There's a fair number of accessibility issues with Eve Online. Things that aren't immediately obvious (T2 manufacturing for one), pisspoor PvE experience among others that I'm sure you're aware of.

    Part of the problem, I'd imagine is the frequency of people simply being dicks to other people because that's how you get ahead (just like in real life: see US foreign policy post WW2).

    I suspect that Eve is simply not going to grow (of people who have tried Eve and are now ex-Eve players) until a lot of those core issues are fixed.

  27. Casualization is a very slippery slope. It can get more new players in the door, but it can also completely destroy all sense of value in the game. It is the MMO conundrum of our times.

  28. What's supporting your view on the new expansion plan and its failure to make the graph tick upwards permanently?

  29. I showed my young child the Rubicon trailer. They said: "aw dad, its just the same game with a different name".

    Then take a long look at the effort to sell to the existing player base:

    1. multi char training and plex
    2. vanity items from converting plex
    3. marketing of alts/buddy

    Eve is intended to be a "cold and harsh universe", but somewhere along the way its evolved into a ghetto of spite and cruelty. Not exactly something that the staff of Marketing can put on a poster now is it?

    The closure of office or branch, and the movement of some of the prominent staff to other game developers is disturbing and hints at budget troubles for the parent company.

    I regard Seagull's vision of Eve's future to be stillborn. Seriously any player body attempting to build there own stargate will be; axowed or aborted. There is a lot of love in this game for knocking over someone else's sandcastle. And even if someone does manage to get one online.

    I assured you have seen the original Total Recall. Arnie goes into Recall and salesman's pitch goes something like: where ever you go on holiday on it you, you don't change, its always you. Which can be directed at Eve players. High Sec, Low, Null, WH - just going to a new space isn't going to change the players. They will just drag along their same prejudices and allegiances.

  30. In addition to "more fun to read than play", count me as "and I really, really want to like it enough to play." For the past decade I've made at least two trial accounts per expansion wanting to like it enough to pull the trigger and pay to play. But I never quite get over that hump.

    I've tried to identify why. The closest I come is an analogy with a lot of problems but here it goes: Eve online is Second Life with PVP.

    It's not. And yet every time I try to describe the problems without going into nitty detail that's where I come out. Everybody already knows everybody (it seems), except for the fellow noobs, and the few willing to talk to the noobs are either looking to scam or so buried in conversations it's hard to follow your own. Good tutorials (much improved over the years), decent instructions for where to go for more info on the tools, a mission that'll force you into other people's gun sights, and 'You have all you need, now go and learn from experience.'

    And I'm not sure how to fix it without making it a game that isn't Eve Online.

  31. Maybe logi's should be the only ships being able to asign drones to anyone... .

  32. Was it the bounty system or was it Crime-watch? Both tools released in Retribution, and both tools help high-sec care bears, either through actual aid like with crimewatch or with emotional aid, like with bounties. As a null pilot, these tools amounted to me getting a bit of isk every so often for killing enemies, but nothing more. It seems like the vocal minority, null sec, was wrong. Which is a tough pill for me to swallow.

    With Odyssey and Rubicon I saw lots of cool changes and features improving my quality of life (scan sites, ghost sites, pvp ship balances). High sec got what? Marauders? Icebelt-fucked? If I contrast who 'won' between these 3 expansions, and the resulting player numbers the sad truth is upgrading high-sec drives numbers. That sucks because Null life is a lot of fun, just wish I could get these players to see it and stick around... Note, I'm a former high sec carebear (05-11) took a long break and now living in a null sec power block (12-present).

  33. I'm going to disagree with one point, and one point only: "People have tried EVE". No, I don't think most of the MMO community has tried EVE, and it's mainly because they've heard of and read about EVE. They're afraid of EVE.

    If you go into the forums for Tamriel Foundry for ESO (for example) and search through, you can find all kinds of threads about how people WANT things like : the "holy trinity" (healer, tank, DPS), they want to be able to inspect other people's gear, they want to be able to "opt out" of pvp by having no content whatsoever in the pvp area, they want to be able to be any race in any alliance.. in short, they want their hands held on everything by the developer; they want gear and level progression according to the same formula they're used to, they want pvp segregated well off in a little corner (Even ESO pvp is too much for a lot of them) and they want all kinds of choices.. as long as no one else can affect them with a choice, and there is a clear "best" way to do things. The idea of being "countered" is horrendous.

    The problem EVE has is not how much its marketed, but who it's marketing to, and that is mostly MMO players that are very used to theme-park WoW-style MMOs with very insignificant consequences, near-immunity to other players, and easily solved, scripted battle problems.

    Those last 2 are key. A lot of these players want to do the kill boss to get loot to kill boss to get loot etc. ad nauseum because human opponents are hard. A lot of people want to pretend these games are hard because you have to work out a strategy an execute it as a team, but they are not hard in the way human enemies are. These are the same sort of people that play through Starcraft in single-player but avoid multiplayer like the plague. They don't want to have to deal with human opponents, and they don't want losing to have consequences (which it has to in pvp to make it meaningful). Even the PVP in these games is mostly meaningless; you just get more or less tokens to buy stuff with if you win or lose.

    EVE is having a hard time getting these people to try it, and of those that do, many flee at the first sign of adversity. On top of that, you have plenty of forum and chat channel warriors all to eager to tell them to HTFU or go back to WoW.. and they do.

    EVE is the Marine Corps competing for recruits with players who would much rather be in the Air Force. For these players EVE IS much more fun to read about than to play. There's a few things that could be done about this; most obviously creating better PVE, and making PVE fit ships more able to defend themselves and escape from gankers and other forms of attacker. Still, EVE is going to be fighting its own reputation for a long time.

    1. Maybe ccp should try and cater more to LoL or Dota2 then. Those people playing these games in droves seem more in line with pvp and they sound (from reading about them from the outside) like they like ruthless competition.

      A pvp that was more accessible really. New ships below frigs, maybe fighters, with less training time, ladders, tournaments, one could do very much in that regard.
      Really for calling itself a pvp game, eve is so detached from itself most times, its weird.

  34. EVE needs another expansion that gives access to another play environment. An anomaly that takes capsuleers to another alternate dimension of solar systems with vast riches to be had but due to dimensional forces the link to cloning facilities is non -existant. If you get podded there before you get out, your character is permanently dead.

  35. I think CCP has pretty much all the playerbase they are going to get with the current systems and focus. The current Risk--Reward dynamic with PvP at its' core is going to keep a vast playerbase away, it's not 'fun' for those ppl and it needs some partitioning. Avatars roaming starbases with zero risk of PvP death and with interesting and productive activities to engage in, stuff like that. CCP will at some point have to prepare to take a hard (though temporary) hit from vets while adding content that appeals to a wider playerbase. They got their toe in the water with Incarna but that was not really added content, just a substructure.

    1. hmmm...people seem to be fixated on 'new content' more than 'oh wait, the social fabric of the game is completely broken'...as though it's a given. as though there's no need to debate that as a mechanic beyond yelling at each other about griefing, which is completely besides the point.


  36. I don't think that CCP is capable of raising the numbers of logged in users substantially within the next five years at least. In the recently released summer minutes CCP admitted the fact that EVE would need an overhaul of almost every part of the game. Even the most basic game mechanics would be needed to revamp. An EVE 2.0 so to speak.
    But honestly? - I higly doubt that, despite best intentions, CCP has the ressources for doing so. DUST 514 a mess, PI unfinished, DUST/ EVE link almost not existent, Walking on Stations on hold, NullSec SOV mechanics and industry/economics untouched, POSes ignored, PVE/ Missions stale and far from being touched at all, industry still not revamped, role/ rights management still a pain, ring mining + tesselation + visible damage to hulls + new shield effects for ships still aren't implemented even though were shown or at least announced - the list goes on and on. Then there are a lot of project that come on top of all of this: Valkyrie, WOD and the comic-tv-series-book thing. From my point of view it seems that CCP has far too many construction sites right now that need to be handled.
    It's sad to say but guess as soon as the next big spaceship games comes out, we will see numbers of logged in players drop below 30k. The thing is, that EVE has been the only true choice to play a true sandbox space game in years. But with the gaming industry's change to focus more on procedural content and sandbox game universes, which might deliver a more time consuming and potentially better designed and modern gaming experience, EVE might have a very hard time to get out of its current plateau.

    Never the less I really hope that CCP is capable of surprising the gaming industry as well as current and new gamers alike by creating something that really makes a change.

    1. yet, which of those needed changes are directly connected to the social aspect of the game: "Role/right management still a pain"
      The list doesn't go on and on does it?

  37. This is a scary topic. Anytime I consider the average number of logged in accounts, I only want to know one thing... How many of those are alts? It is quite possible that day after day after day there isn't 30k people online. It could be only 25k or 20k or 15k people playing those 30k accounts.

  38. So, I'm new to EVE - started in November 2013. Hook was watching Stark Trek Into the Darkness movie and reading all the hype over Star Citizen. Early days are good. Tutorials are solid. SOE epic arc is interesting. Training times are fast and keep you interested into different paths. Progression from frigates (and wealth of free ones in early missions) to cruisers is solid. Prices are affordable. You generally feel progression, earning the starter ships, mechanics of missions......and then you hit the wall.

    Level 3 missions. Money flow slows down dramatically. Gap from battle cruiser to battleship is huge. Level 3 to Level 4 mission difficulty and fitting gap is ridiculous. Training times are a full week or more for a tiny gain in effectiveness (yet required for T2 equipment fitting) are absurd.

    Then you realize that L4 security missions are completely different skills and ships than Incursions and you go "great, another 2 months of useless waiting to cross train".

    Summary - game hooks you in good. And it's so punishing to cross train into other professions. It's punishing with training time (and wait vs. reward is not well balanced). Price cliffs are bad. Difficulty scaling from L1-3 is not translated for L4 and Incursions.

    No wonder people leave after 3-4 months. What else are you going to do when you hit that training wall besides log in for mission or two to keep up cash flow and keep waiting....eventually you wonder if it's really worth it waiting 6-8 months to be able to play a game. I'm at that point now after 3 months. And frankly, reading is more fun than waiting in game.

    1. Aye, i've noticed that wall. and you hit it damned fast too. Access to lvl3 agents happens very quickly once you're up to speed.

      The whole thing should be slowed down and made to be as rewarding as other pursuits...like, why do people mine? because you don't get blown up as much if you need to go afk, or pass out at the keyboard, or fall afoul of the wrong fitting choice and get pointed/jammed/bumped in a mission...plus, ventures make very decent isk right out the gate...I certainly wouldn't want to recommend lvl1 missions for the profit comparison...but, why not?

      Why shouldn't missions be equally lucrative as mining veldspar in a venture (1.5m isk per hour, conservatively)...say 5 minutes per level 1 mission if you're lucky would make 12 completions per hour. I seriously doubt the rewards for blitzing lvl1 missions are 140k isk (including time bonus)

      Are they? they should be. If they are i seriously doubt 5 minutes is doable.

  39. Absolutely agree. The 'stargates to orgasm' plan isnt the right direction. Not when sov sucks, lowsec sucks, NPC 0.0 sucks, pos' suck, corp management sucks, etc etc. They should learn from the factional warfare revamps and apply that to the above fundamental systems. FW exploded in popularity once it made sense and was fun to play but also produced systematic PvP. It's not anywhere near perfect but it's good - and thats what's important. Until we get the same type of fixes to lowsec, npc 0.0, sov (plus the other big ticket items) this game will struggle to increase in player count.

    1. i dunno about criticizing the stargates thing, especially when CCP did mention that stuff about sharing a special personal hangar bay with corp members. That's something for the 'social connections' crowd.

      I like big ticket items in a future expansive vision, as long as they continue to try and 'fix' eve. It's been ten years and we still haven't gotten tech2 ecm drones. Should i complain about that? I dunno, i figure i'll work with what i've got and push for change, not waste my time saying new things SUCK. (yes, microtransactions and greed is good suck big time, but that's another long dead story)

  40. This question has been asked before, but in the context of this posts premise, maybe it warrants a rehash: Why was Retribution so successful? On paper, it's features are not very special or game-changing.

  41. Let's not forget that it's natural for any EVE player to "pick up" alts as he plays the game. You yourself wrote two posts about why just few days ago. Therefore if the concurrent account number didn't change for 5 years, but we know people are picking up new accounts as they go on, then the number of players is dropping over time - and the number of logged in accounts is kept constant with the alts.

  42. I have been playing for almost two years.... but that is not really true. I have been waiting to play eve for almost two years. That is really the problem with eve... I don't know how to start. I get super exited about each expansion but I can't make them work. Crime watch had me dreaming about bounty hunting and buying kill rights. Then it came out and I still don't know how to do any of that.
    I really really want to play eve but I can't hit critical mass with it... so I que up some skills and wait another few months as I dream about what I would like to do one day...soon as I figure out how.

    1. Accept the fact you are a casual player. That's perfectly alright. I still fumble about eve clueless to the vast majority of things to do, yet there is one thing i've learned that you haven't...yet...It's that our prejudices about what eve 'should' be is simply wrong headed.

      CCP doesn't even know what careers exist in eve (just look at their certificate iterations)...not really. So if they don't really have a clue about the different playstyles in eve (and even why some of those mysterious playstyles don't quit), then why are you still waiting for them to give you the answers to why bounty hunting is all hype?

      Accept that this game is so mysterious and complex that you will be waiting forever, not doing much beyond what you know that you know, and be content to know there's always going to be something on the horizon to explore.

      You've got to filter out the absolute crap mechanics (like bounty hunting. lulz. bloody sales gimmick if i ever saw one.) to get to the real meat of the game most of us love to play. Not some hairbrained idea about anti-pirate coalitions escorting vulnerable carebears...really? that's what you really want, isn't it. admit it.

  43. Oh, what do I see? Ripard saying that CCP Seagull's strategy is not going to fix what it is not meant to fix?

    It is not meant to fix hisec!
    it is not meant to fix PvE!
    It is not meant to fix solo gameplay!
    It is not meant to fix casual friendliness!
    It is not meant to fix useless avatars!

    And it is not meant to fix how EVE's fun is fundamentally about spoiling somebody else's fun, which, unironically, is NOT fun for the receiving end.

    I don't know what exactly is meant to fix CCP Seagull's vision. I swear, I barely can relate it to the reality of the game as I perceive it. As I see it, in the best case it's a extremely expensive effort to please a minority within a minority, and the tradeoff for that is the underdevelopment of all the "uncool" features which keep people subbed, but only for a while. Until they leave. Then they are replaced by someone's alt, so far, until everyone who still is around already haves enough alts.

    And so here we are at the plateau, waiting for the downfall.

    1. yeah, well, E&B didn't turn out so well did it? how about the other sci-fi mmogs that have fallen by the wayside? What about the shitty mmogs out there that still survive?

      We're talking about a mmog that has lasted more than a decade. Thank goodness it's not run by Fox networks.

  44. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4065272#post4065272

    Here are the few suggestion what will make EVE a much more fun environment to play in. I think these things would consolidate EVEs foundations, would retain current player base and would make some to return back.

    Than CCP would not have a so ahrd job to build on top of that. Add some industry and science, corp management UI tweaks and the game would be almost perfect.

  45. In the beginning there was the casual player. Well, if you ever got him/her to log in and stay in the game for more than 14 Days that is. EVE is filled with negative stress and that's not what you want in a game. Negative stress, is when you don't really know what's going on why you suddenly lost your ship while trying to learn how to make some ISK in your brand new mining barge. Long time influential EVE bullies don't want to hear this, but as long as hi-sec is NOT hi-sec this is not going to change. It really isn't. Positive stress, is when you say to yourself: "right, so I built myself a ship and trained some PvP skills - let's go to lo-sec and see what this PvP thing is all about". It is also known as fun. Also known as paying subscriber.

    But I have little hope it's gonna change. I never get any of my RL friends to play EVE. When I tell them that a new player can just be blown to bits by an older player if that player just felt like it and there is nothing you can do about it as a newbie. They look at me and smile and give me an imaginary pat on the head. And then go back to pretty much every other game there is that is not EVE.

    I don't know. This game and concept is getting old.*

    *It's still my #1 game though, as it has been for many years, but I feel it's sliding

    1. well, actual studies have shown that to retain customers, in any mmog, you need to have a certain level of frustration, of mysterious undocumented content/mechanics.

      As for the dramatics, what makes you think hardcore players start out casual, oh so many years ago? What has changed? I still see casual players today as i did before.

      Perhaps you don't like risk, period. Is it that you want a 'save game' function? I don't think i've ever encountered one in a mmog before, but good luck!

  46. My biggest problem with EVE Online is that the time investment is such that I cannot reasonably play other games AND EVE because of the time commitment to get good experience out of EVE.

    Most kinds of PvP activity require having high availability and being able to be online for at least 3 hours.

    Unless of course you carebear in high-sec or rat all the time.

  47. Perhaps a fun idea would be some more generated content.
    I mean like the Ghost sites.
    Odd little oh hey there, fun place lots of loots, oh and dragons that want to eat you.
    Make them stand out a bit more, apparently ghost sites are green and mix up with combat anoms that people are conditioned to ignore.
    Make the sites yellow and have them do fun things, like maybe repair structure and suddenly loot spew with a 1% chance of sending you after the attackers
    Tint them yellow and leave them scattered.
    This way it feels as though its more than kill 20 frigs 3 cruisers and a destroyer then click complete.
    This could also lend itself to the more group stuff as one ship will suffer trying to do them all but a group could do more building on the odyssey promise.

  48. ive said it before, but i guess ill flog this horse one more time:

    Incarna was meant to be an expansion marketable to players that want something more than strictly space ships. Goons and others chased it, and consequently, those new players right out the door again.

    Like it or not, you're going to soon find that to sustain EVE, you will need those players. Like others have said above: CCP need to bite the bullet hard, and get it done... or the other end of that plateau will be a cliff similar to the infamous learning curve - except this time, we're all falling off of it together.

    Many may dislike what I've just said, but it needs to be said as its the truth.

    1. I'd like something more than "strictly" beta-level shiite, that ISN'T spaceships, fixed. Pretty sure that's why most people freaked out...now, the grandstanding about ships is something you should pay attention to, maybe?

      As for Incarna, it wasn't that walking around was "chased...right out the door" it was that effing none-to-be-sufficiently-damned GREED IS GOOD memo. Microtransactions was the killer for all of us, and the baby (incarna) got chucked out with the bathwater i'm afraid.

  49. This will be long but I like to think it could be relevant. (2 parts)

    During the Summer of Rage there was a thread made in the forums that asked how many people were unsubbing some or all of their accounts in protest of CCP’s actions. CCP was caught completely by surprise at just how many people ran alts. Just from that thread it was determined that there was an average of 2.5 accounts per player. Alt accounts were far more prevalent than CCP realized.

    You would think that CCP would have more accurate information on this since they are the holder of the account subscription system. This is simply not a good measure due to another practice that’s also quite prevalent. Giving accounts away.

    These accounts have not been traded in the market nor have been transferred. One person is done with the game or planning a long break where they might come back (usually don’t) so they give the log in info to another person. This may be against the EULA, but if one doesn’t do anything stupid, that really isn’t an issue.

    I’m basing this off of personal experience. When I started EVE, I came in with 6 other people I knew. We all played other games and were in guilds together in some cases. Move ahead to a couple years later. By the time I was the last one still playing, the total number of accounts between the 7 of us was 26. A couple were started normally by signing up a new account, but most of them were accounts started by other people we got to know and who had chosen to quit. I had 2 accounts myself and only one of those was in my name. In the end, I biomassed my 2. I don't know about the others.

    Around the same time I ran into a coworker who had been playing EVE with a friend in a 2-man industrial corp. using a total of 14 accounts, 10 of which belonged to my coworker. Only 3 of those accounts were in their names. They had also amassed a fleet of give-away pilots. I would sometimes help them with projects and it was something to see. That many ships meant they could only be contacted on voice chat since they had no time to use the typed chat window. Even then talking broke the concentration and could knock the rhythm of the operation off. Still, I liked helping them out, even if the conversations were a little lacking. They're no longer playing either. I don't know the fate of those accounts.

    So there you have it. Only 9 people with 40 accounts. However, since we would log in most, if not all accounts so they were ready if needed, those 40 accounts looked more like some 25-30 people playing EVE instead of just 9. I know someone out there is wondering why we didn’t transfer the characters. Why pay even more for a game that’s already too expensive?

    Based on that experience I would say that there are even fewer people playing EVE than you think.

  50. (continued) CCP is in a bind with this though. It has to enforce its’ EULA. At the same time it needs those active subscriptions and it needs the numbers to show investors. The other problem they have is that their other projects seem to have a similar problem that EVE does. Products with lots of potential. Potential that they never achieve. All these products cost money and if they don’t make money, they add to the company’s problems. You can have a great rowboat, but it will only hold so many mill stones before it sinks and CCP is having trouble getting out of the mill stone business. Remember the final screenshots from City of Heroes? There were people loved that game and played it right to the very end. That didn’t save it.

    It had been a while so I tried the free trial account. The game itself still felt pretty much the same. There were few glaring changes other than the jump graphics (yuck) and the UI, which hadn’t gotten any easier to use.

    The new player experience was less than great. It was pretty useless actually. The chat channels pretty much said it all. Tons of alts, many just for doing RvB, trolls, racism, sexism, scamming, misleading info, and basic disgust for new players who simply didn’t already have 50 mil SP. Tons of confusion. I frequently saw people being told to just buy a character if they want to play EVE or just to forget the tutorial or anything else and just join a null sec alliance (where you can just be told how to play). Basically, things hadn’t changed at all. The whole thing was bad enough that it should be used as an example of how a bad MMO community can be. The sad fact is, EVE players are proud of this mentality, but can’t figure out why other people don’t admire them for it.

    So while CCP is catering to its current veteran players (and not even all of those) at the expense of all else, remember that you don’t have an avatar to take the last screenshot with. Just some dark blob-ish looking ship-thing against a background of a starry sky. You might want to rethink how you approach the future of this game.

  51. The only thing that attracts long-term EVE players to try another game is the Jesus features in the new game.

    So, it should be pretty obvious that if you want to attract new players*to* EVE, you need to have Jesus features in the expansions. This statement has also been proven by the numbers from the last several expansions, if you drill down and separate "accounts" from "players".

    Can EVE recover? Not with the current plans, and not with DUST on its back. Valkyrie just makes it worse, as does the feeble attempt to keep WoD alive. CCP just doesn't have the resources to dedicate to doing a Jesus expansion.

    Business people always talk about the risk of spreading resources too thinly, in attempts to expand markets. Well, CCP is proving to be a good example.

  52. Whenever i see someone like Jester crying, i know CCP is doing a good job. The more this type of players cry, the more EvE grows.

  53. On a unrelated subject; is it time to update loot tables with more recent ship mods and perhaps, deployables?

  54. Must read for everyone, Troy Wexler's take on the issue:


    This is how EVE looks from the other side, the one that leaves the game so fast that no amount of alts can push the numbers up. And that is a player achievement -congratulations for killing your own game!

  55. wow. just blown away by the "NEW CONTENT!" and adrenaline junkie crowd. *scratches head* I thought this was a mmog. I sell this game to my friends as a screensaver with a built in chat function - certainly not CoD zombie action.

  56. I played EVE for 4-5 years from 2007 to 2011/2012 with anywhere from 3 to 5 accounts.
    I don't really regret quitting in the slightest. EVE is way more fun to read about than play.

    Being #1243 hitting F1 in a fleet fight is boring. Reading about it on EVE24 and excellent Blogs such as this... is fun and I don't even have to pay for it... ore farm ISK to replace the ships lost.

  57. I joined in July of last year. I loved it, joined a corp, made some isk with colonies, and just started to dip into exploration.

    Then it started to become all about plex and alts. Plex is fine but the multiple alts thing is just garbage. Spending money for ships/equipment is one thing but once I realized I could never get anywhere without alts that was pretty much it.

  58. One only needs to take part in the current nullsec war to find out why the nullsec community is leaving the game. Despite living in nullsec, most players that live there don't like 10% TiDi fights, and they are often enough to say, "To hell with this game".


Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.