Welcome to Jester's Trek.
I'm your host, Jester. I've been an EVE Online player for about six years. One of my four mains is Ripard Teg, pictured at left. Sadly, I've succumbed to "bittervet" disease, but I'm wandering the New Eden landscape (and from time to time, the MMO landscape) in search of a cure.
You can follow along, if you want...

Friday, March 28, 2014

Series canceled

Six or eight times (or maybe even ten times, I've lost count) during the run of this blog, I've chosen to take a particular topic within EVE Online, disassemble it, and look at it from a lot of different angles. When The Mittani had his wizard hat incident, I wrote eight posts about that. When CCP had their unfortunate October lay-offs two years ago, I wrote ten posts about that. When I was examining what I felt were failings in how CSM7 was operating, I wrote six posts about that.

For the lay-offs, for instance, I wrote posts on CCP financials, the probable impact on the company culture, the impact on the players, the particularly harsh impact on the Community team at that time, how future EVE Online expansions might be affected, how CCP's other games might be affected, et cetera.

So in January, I decided to run a series of blog posts about bullying and harassment in EVE Online. The eventual plan was for ten blog posts, with probably a couple of follow-on comment of the week posts as people reacted to the series. The "tent-pole" post, which I had intended to publish today, was about general bullying in EVE Online with a focus on bullying of new players.(1) The full series of posts:
  1. How nasty treatment of EVE players is escalating;
  2. how EVE players are like Reavers (a bit tongue in cheek);
  3. what happens to CCP if they do nothing about this;
  4. the intensity level of out-of-game harassment;
  5. the good that EVE players do, linked to...;
  6. the perception of EVE players outside of EVE;
  7. the bonus round (I wonder how this post went);
  8. what kinds of new players is EVE attracting, and what kinds are we driving off;
  9. how do the CSM9 candidates respond to this topic; and,
  10. the final post which would have been about bullying.
And as I mentioned, in the midst of this I expected to run a post or two with comments and reactions. I expected the final post to be the most contentious and I have been working on it and editing it for about seven weeks now.

Needless to say, that post is now going into the Disney Vault for a while as are the two unfinished posts that were to precede it. I have no particular desire to make the current EVE Community team workload any worse than it already is. After all, I'd like to see the Minutes someday. ;-)

CCP Falcon has announced CCP's official position on the current earthquake. In particular:
While the content of online interactions between players cannot realistically be gated within our game worlds, CCP strongly disapproves of clear and extraordinary levels of real life harassment against our players in the outside world.

CCP, in collaboration with the CSM, have agreed and would like to state in the strongest possible terms and in accordance with our existing Terms of Service and End User License Agreement, that real life harassment is morally reprehensible, and verifiable examples of such behavior will be met with disciplinary action against game accounts in accordance with our Terms of Service.
Short version? Even sandboxes have some limits, and out of game behavior should stay within limits of morality if you want to keep playing the game. If you exceed those limits, even if you try to hide yourself outside the client, CCP retains the right to take action against your use of their client. In other words, more or less what I said about this topic earlier in the week. So needless to say, I believe CCP made the right decision here. Exactly what was done to Erotica 1 hasn't been announced but I think it likely we'll hear from the man himself in the next day or two. After that, it will be time to see how his followers react.

For the moment, they're busily trying to rules lawyer the forum thread into the ground without notable success. This ruling doesn't mean your FC or alliance leader can't call you names, for instance, and anyone trying to say that it does is being deliberately obtuse and argumentative.

Finally, last night I gave what I feel like is going to be my definitive interview on this topic to Hoots, Lanctharus, and the other guys at the Cap Stable pod-cast. Most of that interview is now up... go give it a listen if you care to and thanks to the guys for having me on!

Anyway, I think that's all I have to say about this topic for now. I'm going to keep watching it and see how this evolves. Perhaps one day the bullying post will come out of the vault but for now I'm happy that EVE players and CCP have started the conversation on this topic... if not in exactly the way that I intended.

I wrap with perhaps the funniest response to today's events (edited slightly):
Looks like someone didn't make it though to the end of CCP's Bonus Round.

(1) For a hint of where that post was going to go, read this and this, both excellent pieces of writing.


  1. So the bonus room was against the current TOS ?

    Making it very disappointing that CCP did nothing until they got a lot of publicity over it.

    1. That's probably not a fair conclusion.

      Erotica 1 wasn't banned for the bonus round, but for what CCP judged to be a verifiable example of real life harassment.

      Bonus Rounds shouldn't be a problem as long as there is no real life harassment in CCPs eyes.

      Now who might pick up the flame and take over running them?

      Hopefully someone does, for no other reason than to help quiet things on both sides and allow everyone to see that the World is still turning and gankers can still gank their hearts out while the scammers still provide a teaching service to the greedy and those that make mistakes.

    2. I would think that E1 was banned for the totality of his actions as a player. I can't help but think that the creepy mayonnaise/peanut butter pic requests. The fact that even GS found him too freaky in his actions to keep in the fold, the revelations about his perverse buying habits AND his mind fuck bonus round stuff is what got him banned. I have an image in my head of Hilmar seeing this and going "get this guy out of my fucking game" (surely wrong but one can dream).

      After all this is a game rated Teen. Would anyone want their 13 yr old exposed to that sicko?

    3. Hopefully E1 was banned for something that happened in game. Otherwise, CCP might have a problem given this case:
      Where someone gets Doxxed out of game, and CCP refuses to do anything because they "are not able to take anything from any third parties as evidences to accuse any players."

      Since the bonus room happens outside of Eve, any evidence of it happening is evidence from third parties at best.

    4. ccp just used their right to ban anyone. Just remember in this game just cuz its been legal for years and even tho the ppl willing give you all their stuff if they cry and make enough raciest comments and threats at you. That you too can be banned. Nevermind that u just took a guys ingame assets and he threatened to gut u.....that tos acceptable apparently. Gg ccp WP.....in eve scamming is no longer safe but racist real life threats are condoned by ccp....what a win. Real progress.

    5. You have proved to be a stupid asshole. :) what a nice progress from a decent human being. :)

    6. Edward, with regards to the events occuring out of game, it's hardly third party evidence when the perpetrator himself posts the recordings and identifies them as his own. In other cases, there is doubt as to whether the accused is actually the person cited in such evidence. E1 left no such doubt.

  2. The CCP post was a bit unclear, because it didn't address at all if what Erotica1 did was bullying or not. It seemed like it to me, but others pointed out it didn't. But then based on the fact that Erotica1 is seemingly banned and several post by Malcanis (who was implacable in there) it seems that CCP has decided that yes, you CAN go to far.

    And I think that's a good thing.

    1. CCP does not discuss details of particular banning. Were we expecting anything clearer? There are still some Coders trying to pretend not to understand, or to pretend that the TOS has just been rewritten somehow, but anyone who cares pretty much knows the why (minus whatever secret info CCP may have).

  3. P.S. Thank you Jester for getting the ball rolling. I would have liked to read your other posts, but well, results were obtained :)

    1. Yeah me to. You jumped up and down on Erotica (GF there btw), but you havent dealt with some of what I believe are far more serious cases of abuse. Like the guys in dessis over in the caldari starter systems dropping cargo cans and spamming rookie ships with duel requests. Seriously go look out out there. Last weekend as I was finishing up one of my alts I counted 4 frigate wrecks on the undock. Isnt that a tos breach? How about the guys who are driving catas in ventures and badgers flown by 1 week old players?

      Dont stop now, please. Do something to help! Fly by doomsdaying Er1 isnt going to change a thing.

    2. Baiting in starter systems is already explicitly forbidden, just report them.

    3. a) how many newbies know to report, b) my major issue is in perimeter where the badgers and ventures are being murdered. Why is it all fun and games to murder people who dont even know how to fight back?

    4. Aslo forgot to mention. why is it my propsals on eve-o forums to csm's and to bloggers about updating the tutorials to reflect the reality of eve, not just the pve mechanics, ignored? or at best washed over as irrelevent? I cant help but feel its actually a non-issue and nobody (apart from me) really cares just how inaccessable the community makes this game for new players who dont alreay have an "in" which begs the question: if you dont give a F about my badgers being ganked for giggles, just cos they wanted to see if they could make me cry, why was Sokhalr so different?

  4. Well done jester. It takes men of morale fortitude to ensure evil men get stopped. Knowing you would take a lot of flak you did what needed to be done. Not the easy thing but the right thing. Hopefully we see more results like this.

  5. I was hoping you'd get to this today. I wrote something similar.


  6. All I can do is laugh at that second example post; "waahhhhh, we can't be good people without developer protection." HTFU, and make some friends. Shoot and grief the assholes (or impose other, perhaps social?, consequences, like, y'know, this series of posts) until you've carved out a chunk of space that fits your ideals. Y'know, like everybody else has to. Is it hard? Well, yes, but building societies has always been hard. And somehow Eve Uni, RvB & co. have managed to make it work.

    Really, the vast majority of what I see are people who just don't get the damn game. Want to mine peacefully? Make everyone else leave you alone. Want to live in a universe without scammers and griefers and whatnot? Force them out, with your own and your friends' abilities. If carebears put half the time into that (and into forming coalitions of their own) that they did into whining on forums, Eve might actually change.

    As is? You might well get your wish. Eve might well get changed to fit your expectations, and the expectations of ignorant morons who sign up without reading up. Just don't be surprised if it dies afterwards.

    1. That's a real lame excuse of a cry baby "we lost because you called down daddy on us" piece of crap.
      Especially for someone that use the HTFU acronym.

      Can't take a little push toward decency? How about you HTFU and admit that some other idiots went too far and have to be restrained?

      In case you have not noticed, all of this threadnaught series started from a real concern about Subs stagnation; meaning that EVE is already on its path to its demise.

      Another quite obvious fact that escaped you is that Eve was not originally designed to be as hard as real life.
      That's what it's called a game.

      More to the point, there is nothing hard with scamming clueless new players, or ganking them, or awoxing them. Nothing at all.
      And it has definitely nothing in common with building anything, let alone a society.

      Whatever concern you may have for the romanticized myth of "Eve harsh experience", you picked the wrong cause to illustrate it.

    2. You are still as free to go blow up those miners as you were yesterday. The dev post really makes that clear, and whining about your blown up retriever won't make a difference.

      I don't think this incident will turn eve players in a bunch of wusses. But it may stop the slide towards tearjerking being the only way to play

    3. To: Second reply

      I realize that reading comprehension is hard, and forgive you for your kindergarten level skill. Note the 'social consequences' part. Also, it's only easy to scam new players when they don't read up on what they're getting into. For some games, like Eve, a month or two of dedicated lurking first on forums and wikis should be mandatory. Catering to people who don't get the game is inherently self defeating.

      To: Third reply.

      Frankly, there's a difference between dealing with people's behavior in Eve Online, and dealing with their behavior on a third party service. I really wish more people would recognize that. Erotica One and co. are, at this point, e-infamous. Further action is redundant, with the exception of idiots who don't know how to google. Actually, even before this exploded, simply googling for the player name and scam would have told anyone what was what. That CCP has decided to act here sets an unfortunate precedent.

      To be blunt - nobody's upset when they die in WoW because of a lack of preparation for the boss; that's normal and expected. Why people get their jimmies rustled so hard over a lack of preparation for Eve (where the bosses are the other players, and ALL THE TIME) is beyond me.

    4. So if you're a new player, what google terms would you have used prior to this incident that would have warned you that Erotica 1 takes harassment to these extremes?

      I suspect in parallel I should be asking what google terms are going to warn me of you?

    5. "So if you're a new player, what google terms would you have used prior to this incident that would have warned you that Erotica 1 takes harassment to these extremes?"

      This is not rocket science, and something you should be doing as a matter of course whenever you run into an unfamiliar term and/or a player proposing something that's not something you know cold.

      ([name], [term], and/or [{name} {term}], possibly with quotation marks around them if generic) with ("Eve Online" sans quotes, and/or {eve online site of choice}) - Use any and all combinations necessary to get a properly enlightening result. If nothing is found, default to no trust whatsoever.

      First. Last. Always. It won't save you from the deeper scams (like shorting on buy orders to name a recent kerfluffle), but it works for any 'newb' scam (like isk doubling!). As a bonus tip and general rule, while "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" is good advice, it's not remotely comprehensive enough. Say rather, don't let other players you don't absolutely trust have access to anything you haven't already written off. Whether they can access it through use of guns or menus, doesn't matter. It's not just flying what you can't afford to lose, and honestly it never was.

      Oh, and be sure to provide Google with the proper sacrifices afterwards, to keep the information god pleased with you.

    6. "To be blunt - nobody's upset when they die in WoW because of a lack of preparation for the boss; that's normal and expected. Why people get their jimmies rustled so hard over a lack of preparation for Eve (where the bosses are the other players, and ALL THE TIME) is beyond me."

      No one is complaining that Erotica 1 "won" or "defeated" the other players. He clearly runs a masterful scam by stealing *all* their isk. That's quite something. The problem is what happens *after*. the hours of humiliations.

      The Code website has been writing for months about their tear-farming exploits. Erotica1 felt that he would be applauded for his actions. Looks like he was wrong, and the EVE community is better than what he imagined it to be.

    7. I walk up yo u on the street and ask for all your stuff and tell u ill double it. What did you have to google? As for the hours of humiliation maybe you should have googled how to close Ts or how to get out of your chair and walk away. Nah its better to just make threats and racist rants.......no google involved there......this victim is a grown ass man had it been a kid or something I might feel bad but lol this guy was a racist asshole erotica was doing the community a service by getting rid of that trash. I love how u guys act like this idiot wasn't gonna end up quitting be way. People that stupid dont last in eve scams or no.

    8. First off I don't like Erotica 1 and would have him banned for the extremes of the bonus room. However this 'masterful scam' relies on Erotica 1 never admitting it is a scam and that means once they are in the bonus room the player must either quit (by being pushed to extreme and/or realising he has been scammed) or by Erotica 1 giving them the isk. Erotica 1 outright admitting it was a scam would do a lot to damage its future effectiveness.

    9. He admitted on the stream Thursday night that it's a scam. Going to great lengths to "prove" it's not a scam is all part of luring in more marks. His devotees are near-religious in their fervor to preserve the narrative. I haven't seen a mindfuck like this in a while.

  7. Since any post in F&I about this would get trolled or ignored. I'll ask you instead as one of my top vote receivers during your run for CSM.

    What do you think can or should be done to give new players a place to start without being as easily being driven out of the game?

    Would a new class of corporation be a good fit? Something that didn't have all the privileges or benefits of a regular corp. Maybe has a low level tax that goes to the empires but can't be war decced or declare war.. Just a place to keep a social structure together? Can only have offices in highsec.

    This would only fix the war dec problem of course. But it could be a start.

    1. Click on the menu button on the chat window. Hit create channel.

      There's your wardec-immune mechanism to keep a social structure together.

      If you want an present an outward display of allegiance, expect that to be tested.

    2. Judging from the last two linked blogs in the above article this is clearly not sufficient.

    3. Yes it is. This issue is about OUT OF GAME stuff - war decs, 'griefing' (banking, scams etc) in game are part of the game, part of eve and here to stay. Deal with it or leave.

    4. Anon 4:47am,

      I will assume you are a troll or English is not your first language. Otherwise please finish your basic education or finish your remedial classes in college.

      I've been in game 6 years ish. Er maybe 7. I'm fine with all the dark stuff in EVE.

      If CCP would like to grow their playerbase, the current mechanics of the game do not seem to support growth of actual new people playing the game. Or not in sustained numbers. The last to articles linked in the blog post above, share the stories of how a couple different set of new players were griefed out of the game before they could even learn the skill points to effectively defend themselves.

      I am attempting to propose a solution for discussion. You are apparently happy to let the game die a slow death or at least not grow to its potential so you can have someone weaker than you to pick on, maybe. Not really sure you didn't actually make much of an argument.

      And your to much of a coward to even sign your post. Not create an account to log in, even just sign your post. So for all anyone knows you just like posting on the internet and don't even play the game.

    5. "If CCP would like to grow their playerbase, the current mechanics of the game do not seem to support growth of actual new people playing the game. Or not in sustained numbers. The last to articles linked in the blog post above, share the stories of how a couple different set of new players were griefed out of the game before they could even learn the skill points to effectively defend themselves."

      Is growth a worthy goal if it costs the soul of the game?

      Introducing safe corps would simply result in the Vets abusing whatever advantage they grant. *At best,* it would result in the newbies first losses occur only after they had developed habits tailored towards a different game than EVE.

      I want the EVE playerbase to grow. But the way to do that is not by lying to the new players about the nature of the game.

  8. I would also like to say thank you for starting this series. I do hope that we will see the 8th and 10th posts at some point. I am a little concerned about the fact you are holding off on the rest to not further strain CCP though, if only because that implies you have worse to show. I hope I am reading too deeply in to this, but regardless good work.

  9. Erotica's presumed permaban is as deserved as it was predictable. Carrying the bonus round the way he did pretty well stomps right over the line of acceptable behavior:

    "You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player"
    "You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules"

    GM Hormonia:
    "What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle ... However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm ... you break the EULA/ToS"

  10. Thanks for your part in this Ripard. You've done the community a service, whether some of them realize it or not. Keep fighting the good fight.

  11. Ripard, you don't need to finish the series, you have already accomplished what you needed to. Good job on this, it needed to be done.

  12. Rip, you are a true gift to the community and the game itself. Keep up the good work; never change.

  13. Excellent point on the rules-lawyering. The pedantry and nitpicking of E1s fans was incomparable, even as they forgot than a sandBOX has walls.

  14. This ban, based on actions taken in a third-party...application, location, I had the term but it slipped right out of my brain. It sets a precedent, not just for one person, CCP will have to judge cases of similar kinds IN THE FUTURE and be expected to do something.

    Here's a blog post from someone with a decidedly neutral point of view: http://remielpollardlives.blogspot.com/2014/03/temporary-close.html?showComment=1396061627851#c354413449294731016

    Let's also not forget that when Ripard first brought this up, the incident was already done a MONTH ago. That's right, Ripard started a witch hunt over something that happened long ago in terms of news.

    Before you all go and say "Your moral compass is FUBAR/broken," or "I think Erotica 1 is a sociopath and you are a sociopath for defending him." Let me say that I would never do this, I just don't have the capacity to do it, but that's me. To me it just happened, life in New Eden will go on. I will also mention that it has been stated that some on here didn't even know Ero1 EXISTED before these articles.

    Continued below, damn character limits...

    1. And before you start defending Ripard as a "saint," let's not forget that he originally put in a private message to CCP BEFORE going public. Clearly he didn't get the response he wanted, which was Ero being banned. He instigated a negative community reaction with phrases such as:

      "He is also a despicable, vile, evil human being."

      This is an attack on the player behind Erotica 1, the character, someone who Ripard presumably only knows through this event alone.

      "The entire thing is recorded and the recordings listened to by this slime and his buddies for their enjoyment,"

      Interesting he forgets to mention that the client is ASKED FOR THEIR PERMISSION for it to be recorded and is asked if they want a copy for evidence of a breach in the EULA/TOS. And another attack on the person behind the keyboard, what a surprise.

      "This alternating of torturers allows one to deliver a masterstroke."

      Again interesting how he mentions torturers the word right here, yet before he never used any such term or related except once before when enumerating his list of "torture methods."

      ""Perhaps you could get your wife a paper bag to breathe into," one of the torturers says, trying not to laugh, "I hear that helps.""

      Ripard is painting the intentions onto the person in the recording, yet he asked earlier to listen for ourselves and form our own opinions.

      "Play her the recording. Let her judge this recording from outside the bubble that you're living in."

      This is again interesting as of course anyone who doesn't play EVE is not going to understand. And why only a female relative, is this because with a male relative this would fall short, they would understand the humor or tell us "It's only a game, get over it?"

      "I do not know the mental state of the victim and frankly, it doesn't matter."

      Ripard said he DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE VICTIM'S MENTAL STATE! Yet he's supposed to be on his side and care about his well-being, as his argument is entirely based on this being "psychological torture."

      "In the process, he can no doubt piously claim that the victim threatened him, screamed at him, swore at him."

      Of course he can claim that happened, it ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Listen to the recording.

      Not quite done...

    2. "So, how does CCP respond to this vile human being? I can tell you that if I were in the position to make a decision about this person, I would seize his assets, permanently ban his accounts, and I would then go to work on his buddies with asset seizures, negative ISK balances, and temporary bans."

      This is Ripard outlining what he thinks CCP should have done when he went to them privately. Clearly this didn't happen.

      "Sooner or later, they're going to have to decide, though: is this the sort of thing they want going on in their EVE?"

      And here is the invitation for the witch hunt.

      And I mention to the threadnought, Sohkar himself asked for it all to go away as he was tired of people bringing it up. He also did not want Ero to be banned as he learned from it, he had no examples of Ero and his comrades being abusive or torturous in any way towards him.

      Now onto Ripard's second post:

      "Hard limits are needed on behavior and those limits should be enforced."

      Interesting as there has been no hard limits on third-party events before now. Ever since Ripard started harping on the happenings of the bonus room. CCP has never dealt with anything dealing with things they have considered out of their jurisdiction.

      "I again invite you to let a neutral observer living outside the bubble decide."

      Really? Seems to me he's trying to preach to a certain choir.

      Here's an example from his third:

      "You have a choice: continuing psychological torture, or give up every single item you own in game."

      Again, he is calling this torture, and is basically glorifying owning assets in a videogame.

      "I assure you that this is not the case. It's convenient, certainly. But at the end of the day, the EULA clearly states that CCP owns Erotica 1's account and everything associated with it. CCP can close his accounts, seize all items associated with them, and simply refuse to take this man's money ever again. They have the right not to want this person as part of their community."

      Why such a long explanation Ripard? And if this is so and you brought it to their attention, then why didn't they already do this before you started this entire debacle? Why did you have to get people riled up for CCP to take action?

      Bear with me here, not done...

    3. Now we move onto the fourth post:

      "I apologize for being one of the catalysts that started this earthquake."

      Yet you have made four (five counting this one) blog posts which have all gotten over 100 comments except for this one. And most of the comments blocked are those that express a modicum of support for Ero1.

      "Because make no mistake: what Erotica 1 and his cronies do isn't about the scams."

      And how well do you know that? Are you a mind-reader?

      "We make jokes about EVE being a sociopath simulator. Maybe we should stop. Maybe it's in danger of becoming not-a-joke."

      Gee, that's not a veiled insult to the entire community at all...

      "But over time, the concentration of EVE players that join the game specifically intending to inflict misery on fellow EVE players -- because they can... because this behavior is never punished and in fact seems to be encouraged and in fact rewarded -- only seems to increase."

      And this statement is a perversion of the fact that players are encouraged to be villainous in EVE Online. Here Ripard is intending to put a stop to it. To quote someone else, if you cut off the ends of a ruler (representing a spectrum), you only get new extremes.

      And now we got this one:

      "Short version? Even sandboxes have some limits, and out of game behavior should stay within limits of morality if you want to keep playing the game. If you exceed those limits, even if you try to hide yourself outside the client, CCP retains the right to take action against your use of their client."

      Yet we are talking about something CCP previously considered to be "out-of-game," and was completely fine with it for the years Ero was operating in. Until of course our dear FRIEND Ripard decided to start the witch hunt/lynch mob. Now Ripard is causing CCP to be inconsistent with their own rulings, just PEACHY.

      And there, I will be seriously surprised if this comment stays visible for any length of time, but at least my argument will be seen at all.


      ---A message from your Friendly Neighborhood Scoundrel

    4. Of course you can write all the long winded science fiction novels you want on here and no one will care. Why? Because the scumbag player behind Erotica1 is getting exactly what he deserves. Fuck him. And fuck you too, if you don't like it then quit. By the way, can I have your stuff?

    5. @Anonymous:10:09 pm: Hey look, it's the new end of the ruler, and it's you!

    6. In response to Anonymous, long winded Science Fiction Novels, wrote by Jester, are the reason for the change in CCP's stance. Simply insulting and damning a person for his views does not help in the slightest.

      "Ripard started a witch hunt over something that happened long ago in terms of news"

      Whether something wrong takes place no matter when it takes place it is still wrong. The same thing could be said for those who were ignorant of Erotica 1. If something wrong is taking place in the murky shadows of a community, something wrong is still taking place. Not to mention that the Bonus Room as an ongoing event not a one time thing.

      (After quoting Erotica 1) "This is an attack on the player behind Erotica 1" Yes it is, Erotica 1 took his own actions FAR beyond the realm of the game world and exposed himself to these kind of personal attacks. And responsibility for ones actions does not end once you turn off the computer. Your actions are still your actions however they may be influenced.

      (In regards to the person agreeing to be recorded) There is a difference between agreeing to be questioned by the Police, and for them to bash your skull in to make you confess. The fact that Erotica recorded his actions purely to prolong the torment of individuals and broadcast it across the internet is the point I believe Ripard was trying to make.

      "In regards to torture and other 'buzzwords'"
      Yes, he did use the word torture and many other damning words to instill a response in a reader. But this has happened in journalism for as long as it has existed. This is a blog posted by Jester himself without inside influence. He has no responsibility to be neutral in any argument. This is a personal blog not a news website.

      "Not caring about the persons mental state"
      He said the persons mental state does not MATTER. As in no matter if this person did not have a speech impediment, was depressed etc. Erotica's actions were still wrong and would be wrong no matter who he practiced them on.

      "Claiming victims threatens him"
      The sole reason of the bonus room is to get an emotional response from the victim that amuses those who practice it. There is a difference between someone threatening someone for no reason. And then having someone basically harass you for an hour and a half and losing your cool and threatening the person.Which I believe is the point Jester was getting at.

      "In regards to Ripards comments on CCP's actions and invitation for a witch hunt" Do you not also have an opinion on how you want CCP to act? When CCP did not act the way you wanted them to in this case were you angry? Did you suggest ways for them to deal with it?

      Jester asked a question, a legitimate question meant to provoke a response from the reader. In this case a far overwhelming response that has dwarfed anything else he has written to date. So, in that respect, their was obviously a lot of people who had opinions on this that needed to be expressed.

      "Sohkar's supposed recant" I say supposed because, unfortunately we have no way to confirm that Sohkar actually said these things besides your word. However, even if he did say these things it still doesn't matter.

      Because someone is embarrassed, and does not want to be in the Limelight does not mean that something unethical didn't take place. I find it difficult to believe that Sohkar actually said that he didn't view Erotica's actions as harassment of some sort. And even if he didn't the fact of the matter is that they WERE harassment despite what he or Erotica might think.

      "In regards to the 'Hard Limits' Proposal" Ripard believed that CCP SHOULD enforce actions like harassment that take place in third party theaters. He says 'NEEDED' as in those are not enforced by CCP at that point in time. He believed, like many others, that the status quo should change and said so.

    7. "In regards to 'torture' and in game assets"
      Sohkar made an investment into the system that was the Bonus Room, whether or not you or someone else believes that this is an unimportant investment is irrelevant for two different reasons.
      Sohkar might have had a far greater respect for his In game assets then either of us may have. And
      Erotica 1 had even LESS of an investment in the Bonus Room then Sohkar.
      Everyone blames Sohkar for not leaving, but no one ever holds Erotica accountable for his actions either.

      "In regards to Ripards's explanation of the EULA"
      Yes, CCP probably said that their hands were tied to Ripard if he indeed did contact them before he posted this. He disagreed with their actions, obviously, and broadcasted Erotica's actions to his readers to provoke discussion and get a response from CCP.

      He is not the first one to do this, Goons and other entities have been using in game actions to influcence CCP's decisions as well. Jita Riots? Prime Example of players changing CCP's mind. This does not mean that invoking a response in the community is wrong.

      "In regards to Ripards apology" Ripards post sparked a MASSIVE threadnaught and another truly massive response on his own blog, not to mention elsewhere in the EVE community. He shouldn't have apologized for sparking the discussion, but was probably overwhelmed by the massive unintended response.

      "Isn't about scams comment"
      Erotica and co. had all of Sohkars assets in their hands somewhere like ten minutes into the recording. They HAD completed the scam, they had no reason to continue, there was NOTHING else they could get from Sohkar, thus the near two hours of the recording after this is completely unrelated to the scam because it was concluded ages before the actual bonus room session was.

      "Ripards alleged community insult"
      I struggle to see any insult in this, to me it seems like Ripard is warning us that if we ignore such behavior then this unacceptable behavior will become commonplace.

      "Alleging Ripards intent to ban all type of in-game villainy "
      He and CCP have said repeatedly that In game actions such as Ganking, Scamming etc. Are perfectly fine as long as they stay within the limits set by the game, or do not violate the EULA by being Harrassing etc. Erotica surpassed these expectations long ago and Ripard, along with many of us, believe he should be punished.

      "Alleging CCP's inconsitency" Its not Inconsistent, its just a change. Inconsistency would imply that they have banned people for actions on third party apps already. Which by your own admission they haven't. If someone pulled something extremely similar to the Bonus Room, or someone continued to run them in Erotica's fashion and THEN CCP didn't ban them that WOULD be inconsistent.

      However, what you and many others seem to be missing is that this is an EXTREME case of third party harrasment involving EVE. The blog link you posted was before the Erotica incident, and I am personally glad that the person on the receiving end of the harassment reported it to the proper authorities. If a similar case would happen at this point after the 'Erotica Decision', I am sad to say the same result would probably happen.

      Why? Because CCP has no way to validate that the statements provided by, in his case, Gmail are authentic. There is no doubt that the actions of Erotica happened, He posted them on the internet, he defended himself and said that he HAD done the bonus room as such, and the proof did not need to be validated by CCP.

      At this point, with the 'Erotica Precedent' Set. CCP can only act against that individual if there is no possibility that the proof presented by the reporter is false. In short' the logs must show something'

      I hope I have enlightened you somewhat and hope that you can reply with your own calm, researched counterpoints if you have them.

      Good Hunting

    8. EDIT:

      Just found sohkar's post on the forums. And truly I find it to be a massive farce. First off, just before he posted it he was on a TS with Erotica 1, did Erotica 1 record that TS, to show how much of a supportive nice guy he was? I have yet to find evidence of it.

      But just looking at sohkars post you can see that the actual issues regarding Erotica 1's ban were not discussed in the slightest.

      "I got scammed and made an fool of myself in the process he did not ask me to do anything that would personalize me to people i don't know other then by my voice. "

      Implies that Erotica 1 was in the wrong because he scammed sohkar and then made his RL info available, which as far as I know never even came into the discussion.

      "Scamming and bonus rooms are not the problem until it makes someone hurt then selfs or others"

      A bad response even if it wasn't coached by Erotica. I think we all would prefer to nip this kind of behavior in the bud BEFORE people started committing Homicides and Suicides.

      "til then you may not agree with mine bumping or scamming then dont do it. Just because you dont agree with it doesnt make it a crime"

      As if the whole issue was about the scam and miner bumping. Which it NEVER was, but I sincerely doubt that that particular subject ever came up.

      We can only postulate on what went on in the private TS, but since it at this moment is not public, we have no Idea how coached sohkars words are. But the fact that he only posted on the forums AFTER he spoke with, what Im sure was a very quiet, forgiving and benevolent Erotica taints anything he might say unless we can actually hear what the discussion was between the two.

      Last of all, I will be blunt, this guy is not the most literally capable person out there. He is by no means stupid, but theirs a difference between literacy and intelligence. But it inflames my anger as much as the recording Erotica made THIS guy read Russian History? Erotica's cohorts made THIS guy repeat and define every word he mispronounced?


    9. I don't think any amount of typing is going to turn Jester or sokhar into a villain. Erotica 1 the cyberbully and mayonnaise-fetishist owns what he did, and was banned for nothing more than what he did and bragged bout having done at the edges of the game and beyond.

      That Erotica 1 began his own failtrain by serially publishing the abuse is perhaps the only enjoyable thing about this sordid little tale of human weakness. When he tried to coopt the EVE brand is perhaps when he sealed his fate.

    10. First of all, thank you to Simyaldee for the brief defense, I will try to be brief for both our sakes. Second, Sohkar is far from the villain here, Ripard is for making this public when CCP could have jumped at the chance to take care of this "in-house" as it were.

      In doing so, he forced CCP to take a "side" rather than review evidence for themselves and make their own ruling that was as unbiased as possible. Now of course that he's "won" he can tout that his side was "morally superior" even as those that claim to be on the same side pretty much condone or call for RL violence to be brought down on their opponents.

      Yes, I understand this is Ripard's blog, but the situation itself was where bias was inappropriate. Even less appropriate was Ripard's actions in this sense.

      I will conclude with a question, do any of you anti-E1 supporters out there, think that if Ripard had never touched this subject at all, that anyone out there would have done something about it?

    11. "Now of course that he's "won" he can tout that his side was "morally superior" even as those that claim to be on the same side pretty much condone or call for RL violence to be brought down on their opponents."

      Please ignore this, it is completely inappropriate and irrelevant to my argument, thank you.

    12. Simyaldee, the time for logical debate has come and past. Besides, all you get from the Erotica pumpers in return for your logic is half truths, ridiculous straw man arguments and outright lies. I have heard enough of their bullshit so I have now moved on ridicule.

    13. the majority of the community has voiced against this, Alistair. Ripard's just the messenger you seem to now want to shoot. If the majority of players are offended - this does not help you rethink this position?

  15. http://xxhimmler420xx.tumblr.com/post/80976231451/why-it-s-probably-a-good-idea-to-be-nice-to-others-in

    1. Quickly categorizing people as "emotionally scarred' isn't very nice; which makes your entire post somewhat oxymoronic.

    2. Because that´s self-evident, but yes I should add this to the postulates

  16. Good job Ripard, you got sohkar kicked from his corporation with your crusade to get Erotica banned.

    1. Ripard is not responsible for the actions of Sohkars Corp Directors, and personally I believe creating a precedent to prevent out of game harassment by EVE players outweighs Sohkars banning from corp.

    2. Kind of spineless of his corp directors not to stand up for their members no?

    3. @ Louis

      Indeed, although they must have been getting a LOT of hate and crap for this. Just like sohkar probably is.

    4. Alistair said it best when referring to Jester's pedantic attempt to gather public opinion as a weapon against CCP. The fact that the 'series' is cancelled after achieving this goal further supports Mr. Drake's claims.

      Have you heard of Journalistic integrity Jester?

  17. Thanks dude.

    Letting my sub finish and I'm out. If some self righteous CSM member can get someone banned for something not covered in the EULA then what's the point? Any of us could get banned at any point for "Being the Villain" too much?

    Ripard Teg for CSM 9! Make the whole galaxy highsec! Fun for everyone!

    1. You obviously did not read the post by CCP

      The Terms of Service make no distinction between harassment in game or out of game. Just because CCP has not enforced bans because of out of game harassment is very difficult to prove, and CCP has not had a decent base case as far as I know to apply it to.

      They have stated in the same freaking post that they are not going after scamming, or acts like piracy extortion etc.

      You are not only being unnecessarily alarmist but you are deliberately ignoring both what CCP and Ripard are saying.

    2. WAS Erotica 1 banned? That's all it comes down to here, because the CCP "announcement" is nothing but a smokescreen. It says absolutely nothing of value; it simply reiterates what's been in the EULA for a decade.

      If he wasn't banned, it's a major victory for common sense and personal responsibility in EVE.

    3. In the past, issues like this without precedent have been met with clarifications of the EULA and temporary bans for parties involved.

      This was clearly a divisive issue and they decided to take a side instead of mediate and come to a resolution. Sohkar himself has spoken out against the idea of banning Erotica over this and yet here we are.

      I would absolutely concede that if enough of the player base felt so strongly about this issue then the rules should have been clarified and erotica given a temporary ban or warning, but a permanent ban without prior warning when they had knowledge of exactly what goes on in the bonus round is a step too far over the line.

      As covered by many others, the bonus round wasn't just a place to humiliate the lucky contestant, it was a place to pass owness and preserve the ambiguity over whether or not anyone could win to begin with. It was integral in Erotica's continued success and this IS absolutely them going after scamming/piracy/extortion.

      I'm voting with my wallet against what I feel is a hasty decision and a terrible precedent to set. Your opinions are yours, mine are mine. It was enlightening to read both sides of the argument throughout that threadnought, but pretty depressing to see such a one sided result come out of it.

    4. "CCP strongly disapproves of clear and extraordinary levels of real life harassment against our players in the outside world."

      Considering that many people believe Erotica's actions to be defined as such, many (including me) believe this to be an implication that Erotica received some form of disciplinary action.

      Although, your 'personal responsibility' quote kind of made me chuckle. Because, like many others, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Erotica ALSO had a responsibility to end his actions at any time. And yet you don't hold Erotica responsible for not ending the humiliation.

      When was it his responsibility to say enough is enough?
      When Sohkars speech impediment became apparent? When he grew belligerent and began to lash out at the members of the TS? When his wife was weeping in the background?

      Sohkars gullibility and stupidity in no way excuse Erotica's actions. Erotica chose to exploit his gullibility and stupidity to extremes that far exceed the vast majority of any other action in EVE and were WRONG, and that aspect of being wrong is completely independent of anything Sohkar might have done to make him vulnerable to them.

    5. Can I have your stuff?

      All I can say to the sociopaths crying over the sudden appearance of a fence is: mmm, tears.

    6. Devon, don't let the door hit on your way out. I hear North Korea needs more guards for concentration camps. You might want to apply for a job there.

    7. That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I made no quote about personal responsibility and I don't know what you're referring to in that regard.

      Part of the strategy is to let the contestant lose. If they lose by their own accord then it wasn't necessarily a scam. If it wasn't necessarily a scam then others will be more likely to try it out. It's a pretty inventive take on isk doubling scams actually. Erotica had a responsibility to make it seem as though sohkar lost for himself, sohkar had a responsibility to win 5x his isk. They were on a TS for a spaceship video game, with relatively little on the line for both of them. I don't see anyone guilty of harassment in this, just two people clearly guilty about caring too much about a spaceship video game.

      CCP was aware of this activity going on and this was by no means the longest or most punishing bonus round in history. They could have issued a warning or temporary ban at any time.

      You use a lot of absolutes when describing your opinion on the issue, but the fact remains that it is an opinion. You also seem intent on arguing the point of whether or not Erotica was stepped over the line, which has nothing to do with my point.

      A permanent ban in this case means that I now have to strongly consider everything I do and say both in game and out of game in EVE related discussion forums and mumble/TS in an entirely different light since anything could be argued as bannable harassment, even if I'm simply acting in character as the space villain I choose to be. I can't necessarily say that I'd ever be involved in something like the bonus round, but I also can't necessarily say what other activities cross the line given how relative these issues can be.

    8. @DevonG

      I apologize if I construed that you somehow approved of Erotica's actions in this case, I have posted several different responses at length to different people and they can blur.

      Regarding "Everything" As being available for exploitation as Harassment Is a bit of a stretch in my own personal opinion. Considering sohkar, in this case, was not banned for his outburst against Erotica, I would conclude that spontaneous outpourings such as his would be something that would be hard to get you banned.

      Unknowing of how each process go's there are an infinite number of ways Erotica could have ended the term on TS while claiming sohkar 'lost' and if Erotica was so intent on retaining a specific process. Why did one of his cohorts add the rule, specifically to target sohkars speech impediment, to define every word he could not pronounce.

      Defining a rule as "You must obey all instructions" And then giving different instructions each time does not give anyone a specific rule set to point to.

      But think about it very closely for a second, the precedent set by CCP at this time is that, as an EVE player, you cannot take another EVE player, and then apply methods that can be deemed as harassment, And the defined harassment in this case, was having a man repeat medial tasks over and over and over again, with no rewards, solely for the purpose of ridicule, because the 'process' involved was a farce in and of itself because it was changed at whim by the testers.

      Someone did not get banned here for raging out on coms, no one got banned from EVE for calling someone the N-word in a non-eve forum. Someone got banned for knowingly and purposely instigating a situation of harassment, perpetuating that harassment for an extreme length of time, and and then made that harassment completely public HIMSELF, so that CCP had no reason to doubt that he was the person involved in the harassing.

      You may believe in the slippery slope that suddenly you can no longer cuss on TS when you are playing EVE. It is my opinion that this is an extreme view and the likeliness of this ever occurring is infinitesimal.

      If you believe otherwise and shall leave EVE after your sub expires, that is your prerogative. However wouldn't you rather have fun and keep playing and THEN have your views vindicated, or just keep having fun indefinitely and have them NOT be vindicated?

      Seems to me like it would be more of a win-win to just keep cracking on.

    9. @Simyaldee

      In what way Erotica 1 had a "responsibility" to end his own actions? This is like saying it's a ganker's "responsibility" to not gank a poorly tanked mining barge. Or are you one of these people who likes to pretend people aren't upset when they lose things they worked hard for in a videogame?

      Now that it's clear Erotica 1 has indeed been banned, I can only sit back and wait for CCP to go down in flames, because by estabilishing that they are willing to punish people for their behaviour out of the game(Note: not "in the outside world" as the post stated - TeamSpeak isn't any more "outside world" than EVE Voice) they opened the floodgates of second, third and fourth party accusations. Ramiel Pollard already started the crusade: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=333104

      THIS is the slippery slope Malcanis and everyone else with more brains than heart were talking about, not getting banned saying "ur dum" in Local.

    10. DevonG: "A permanent ban in this case means that I now have to strongly consider everything I do and say both in game and out of game in EVE related discussion forums and mumble/TS in an entirely different light since anything could be argued as bannable harassment, even if I'm simply acting in character as the space villain I choose to be."

      tldr: Punch toons, not people. It's not very complicated. Don't chase people into the real world. If you can't humiliate them sufficiently in game, get better at EVE. If you can't do any of these other things, don't record the proceedings. If you absolutely can't restrain yourself on the prior points, don't let your complulsion drive you to publish the evidence that will be used against you.

      Really, this ban lies at the end of a long chain of personal failures. No one with a milligram of compassion or self-control needs to worry about falling into the same trap.

      Re-read the isn't-that-the-game-where post to understand why CCP had to act in pretty much the way they did. Go thou and don't do likewise.

      It's easy.

    11. "Don't chase people into the real world."

      By this, of course, you mean 'give an invitation to a third party voice chat client.' Why don't you scroll up a bit and read this -


      Do you support banning both of these people? One made implicit threats against another's family, and the other invited the first onto a third party voice client. In both cases, by your definition, Eve was pursued into the 'real world,' which, again by your definition, should be a bannable offense.

      Of course, I doubt you support banning either of them. Hypocrite.

    12. Don't let the door hit you on your way out. Also, can I have your stuff?

    13. @anon 10:05am

      IIRC, the usual policy for that is, "take it to the police". Which, BTW, you should do. That guy sounds scary dangerous, and getting him banned from EVE is not going to make him any less of a threat.

      That said, I wouldn't shed any tears over the guy making the threats being banned, either, but I'd prefer to send him to jail or at the very least be served a restraining order..

  18. It's fascinating that Ripard gets blamed for what Sohkar's corp does. There was no way to discuss this and keep Sohkar's name out of it. Why? Because Erotica1 had already posted the audio.

    Perhaps those critical of Ripard for Sohkar's feelings of embarrassment should take it up with Erotica1 instead. Oh wait...

    1. If only Ripard Teg had the common decency to, you know, ASK before putting Sohkar's name out for his little crusade?

    2. I reread the post from Jester and he did not put Sohkar's name out. Now, he did link to the Erotica 1's soundcloud, but that does not mean he put the name out "for his little crusade." That means Erotica 1 put the name out in plain view. Jester is innocent of any wrongdoing here. Same cannot be said of Erotica 1 and his cohorts.

    3. yes because clearly jester has the same readership as ero1 thats why we all heard about this when it happened last month.....its pretty easy to construe these blog posts as harassment I'd be careful with the precedent u just help ccp set. But I guess its ok to harass as long as you have a problem with what the person your harassing is doing.......after the victim came forward I actually gained a lil respect for the guy at least he knows he was in the wrong even if the community dont. Even seemed to have learned something. Wonder what other games u can play and get a life lession like that? Let me know if u find one cuz its not eve anymore

    4. EVE Online: Life Lesson Generator

  19. The rule lawyering attempts by some members is because they want to know as far they can go in tear-harvesting without going over the line. They want to dance on the edge... but not by squeezing that module with 0.2 powergrid left, or wining a fight with 14% structure left, or taking control of a market... no they want to dance on the edge of human decency. To be as cruel as they can possibly get without getting banned.

    They are mad that they are going to have to show restraint.

    Lovely people.

    But I was heartened by how the majority of the community (well, those who posted) reacted. And some of the posts were *gold*.


    When one of Erotica1 had the gall to complain that Erotica1's reputation was being besmirched, that he might even being harassed,:

    "Who is Erotica1? I am unaware anyone with that name plays Eve Online."

    1. Let us think about what we would be hearing from Erotica1 and his enablers had the decision gone the other way. Who can doubt they would have handled the whole thing with dignity, restraint and compassion. There would have been no crowing how sweet the tears were. Oh wait...

  20. The call to arms by Erotica1 in the comments on minerbumping http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/03/erotica-1-banned-from-eve-acquires.html shows he doesn't have any remorse over the incident and instead wants to inflame things. This above all shows Jester was 1000% correct about this and whatever CCP's decision then it needs to remain/increase to a permanent ban. They should also consider their position on CODE. and James315, he is obviously stirring up trouble.

  21. I've ben following this series of posts, waiting to see what would come out from them. Along the way, I've come to sympathize with Jester, as in my eyes he's trying to save the game he loves against impossible odds.

    I too come from that road. I thought and still think that Incarna and specifically avatar content was essential for the long term survival of EVE, specifically as a mean to provide an alternate gameplay venue. As that chance passed away, so did my last hopes for the game.

    EVE's FiS has become a toxic environment for anyone not interested in a certain playstyle focused on driving players out of the game. It's not about Erotica1, but about the 10,000 bullies like him who just make the game unplayable to as much people as they can, effectively depriving CCP from income and driving away new customers who could replace such lost income.

    I could go on about how this was bound to happen from the start and CCP did nothing, but the fact is that CCP eventually has painted itself in a corner where playing EVE has become equal to killing EVE.

    Good job for them, I guess.

    1. "Save the game" is perhaps an overly dramatic phrasing, but not extremely so. Jester is in a position to know just how badly CCP wants/needs EVE to grow, and is right, I think, in identifying the bullying as an important reason why new players tend not to stick around for long.

      If CCP will kick out the worst actors, or protect n00bs against them somehow, n00bs will stay subscribed a bit longer, and the worst actors will engage a bit less with helpless victims--and the rest of the game map can be left wild. That's a place to start.

      When a bad actor uses EVE to stalk other players and torment them outside of the game, records the abuse and posts is to humiliate victims further, banning a player or five is a no-brainer that can only brighten CCP's image. Despite the howls of outrage from the HTFU cultists, the recent ban doesn't change the game landscape in any significant way.

      Look past the hype, and you'll see that this GM move is really just the lightest of touches on the tiller. One sociopath is gone, for now, and his allied sociopaths will get just a little bit less sociopathic in the way they use EVE to pursue victims in the real world.

      It's good.

    2. I love the rule lawyering and attempts to game the TOS/Eula as if Its part of the game itself. Erotica 1 knew he was breaking the rules, his actions in taking out of the game proved that.He got what he deserved.

      However, CCP is in serious manure here. Its obvious that Jester has been agitating for CCP to do something about the cyberbullies. Its also obvious what they said to him. If CCP didn't know what would happen if this went 'viral' then they were incompetent, if they did...well that's even worse.

      CCP took WAY too long to reach a decision, and they have done some serious damage to their rep with the rather pathetic response. They might think they've been clever but they've come across as a second rate gangster/politician trying to avoid incriminating themselves. This will not just go away. People now know that EVE Online is home of Cyberbullies Online and its only a matter of time before someone tries to conflate that with the other handmaiden of evil the groomer/paedo.

    3. @Anon 7:45

      This issue has been more of a storm in a teacup as it barely has hit the outside world (and sure CCP is thankful for it). All in all, both CCP's lukewarm answer and Erotica1's deeds are just anecdotal -the real issue is the culture of driving players away from the game as "ultimate victory".

      So now, OK, doing that in the outside world may be risky to the griefer, but, it still is a part of the only acceptable gameplay in the server. Everyoby else is being chased away, either passively or sometimes actively.

      It's not Erotica1, but the thousands of other customers whose only way to feel satisfied with the game is to drive other customers away. CCP certainly haves it coming when those customers eventually drive everybody else away, and then grow bored and start unsubbing.

  22. But.... i want to read the rest of the series. You said before it was an earthquake waiting to happen... well, the aftermath isn't done yet.

    It's a good start, but your point got lost in the controversy of Erotica 1. You pointed out a monster on the edge of the map, we all looked at the dragon, most of us decided he was bad, and now he's gone. But no one is looking at the main part of the map, we're busy feeling euphoric about ourselves because something on the margin is gone. Doesn't mean the ground is stable everywhere else.

    1. I agree. I fully agree with you.

    2. I want to read the rest of it too. Maybe in a couple months when the furor over this has died down and there is a new set of CSMs... but honestly, topics 8 and 10 seem like they'll get similar responses to some of the early ones, rather than the specific-case outrage over someone who should have been banned years ago.

      Topic 9 is a relatively time-sensitive topic, but, quite honestly, I'd like to read it. I've gotten sufficiently angry over this topic that knowing what CSM candidates think about it will, in fact, influence my decision over whether to vote for them. You should run it anyway, even if you cancel 8 and 10.

  23. Thanks Ripard,

    I'll resubscribe now that both the community and CCP have shown they are serious about stopping the rot afflicting this game.

    1. And ill unsub 10 accounts because you are condoning racism you make me sick. A rot infecting the game???? you mean the raciest idiot victim? cuz tbh i wouldn't want to play with that guy and CCP not banning him with ero1 shows that CCP condones this racism and real life threats of players. things that actually break the EULA in its current form.(not to mention are just completely unacceptable in this time, if he was yelling that shit at someone that ripped him off on the street he would dead.) disgusting. Id guess 75% of u didnt even listen to the guy or just skipped over that part. I have to give some the benefit of the doubt. but the rest of you willingly condone racism because the guy got something stolen in a video game. wow. we have come so far........

    2. Already resubscribed and having fun.

      Life is too short to blame the victim and get angry to try and cover up the cause.

      You should try to relax some, you'll live longer...

    3. You put people in shitty situations, they sometimes act shitty. Who would have possibly thought?

      His racist views are his own. They were expressed after excessive provocation. Does that really excuse the harassment? No, it doesn't. Because I bet you can find shitty things in every person and construe that as a fucked up justification for why "they had it coming".

      It doesn't matter if the victim was a Neo-Nazi or Catholic Nun, you turd.

  24. Ripard, are you planning on writing anything in regards to the findings of Dr EyjoG relating to player retention that you were presented with during the Summer Summit? It would be interesting to hear your take on the hard data collected by CCP around this issue.

    1. The pattern by which subscriptions increase and users logged stagnate is not compatible with player retention, rather with account duplication.

    2. both happen at the same time. New people learn the game and then add more accounts. i think the last average i saw was 2.5 accounts per player. I am sure eve loses more then it keeps but not all people like to be challenged by their gaming. The masses prefer press button get bacon crap games to help them forget about life that's not eve, thank god.

  25. I hope the other posts will, at some point, see the light of day. I fully understand your desire to let the dust settle.

    Thanks again for bring the Bonus Room to our attention. I suspect the majoirty of players, if anything like me, hadn't any desire or need to read the minerbumping site previously.

    1. I did not know about the Bonus Room before I read it in this blog. With the events having gone the way they have (apparent banning of Erotica 1, harassers' tears on forums and community showing its spine on what is acceptable) I am feeling again more upbeat about the future of this game. Having said that, I too would like to see the last few posts.

    2. Yeah, for the first time in a while, I actually feel like participating more. If I'd heard about the Bonus Room *before* prominent members of the community were trying to do something about it, my reaction would be completely the opposite. It gives me hope that people with some influence in the community called this out and got something done about it.

      Maybe if those who are defending the practice get some distance from it now that Ero is banned they'll understand a little better how fucked up it is. They've been scammed, too, just in a different way.

  26. Wait... CCP deals with *one* of the "outlier" members and you cancel the rest of the blog series?

    "I have no particular desire to make the current EVE Community team workload any worse than it already is."

    I understand this is tongue-in-cheek, but to use a somewhat bombastic and overblown example, what investigative reporters stop writing when their subject says "Hmm, I'll look into that"?

    You owe it to your readers and the EVE community writ large to publish your complete thoughts, regardless of whether or not the forum moderators are getting carpal tunnel.

    1. I, for one, agree with that

      I suspect, in the metagame, some kind of RMT-based exchange of RL informations. Player X hates player Y, pays player Z to obtain RL info of Y.

      When you see the level of emotional depravity scamming griefers sink to (preying on people´s good will, Sohkar was lured into the Bonus Room by an alt of Erotica1, whom he had pretend she had been scammed but could be helped), it´s not very difficult to imagine that some join corps and pretend becoming friends with some members to collect their RL-related data and then sell it to whomever it interests.

    2. OP does not say canceled.

    3. Because it was never about "fixing" EVE. It has been about vilifying and carrying out a vendetta against Erotica1.

      Thats all this has ever been about.

    4. @Anonymous 9:50

      The title "Seriec canceled" would seem to make it pretty clear.

  27. Eve online a cold dark universe unless your too stupid to leave a Ts channel. Then mommy and daddy ccp will save u.......dont want to make more work for the community team lol no every sucker that gets scammed will want a ban. I'd say u ruined the community teams lives

    1. Eve is a cold hard universe, so HTFU.

    2. Yea, either he ruined the Community Team's lives or Fire Bush is just being a fucking drama queen. I hope all those tears don't cause your mascara to run bitch!

  28. yeah didnt make it thru ccps bonus round really funny.....its good to know that racist are now safe in this game. its ok the threaten someones mom as long as they hurt your pixels in game we all know how emo ppl get over pixels. This ban is sending the wrong message I'm afraid. Its good to know CCP will be busy policing scams now instead of improving the game. I thought the racism i saw in game was just the product of an ignorant community. it turns out its actually condoned by the community and CCP. sickening. Im embarrassed to be a part of the eve community today shame on all of you.

    1. Wahhhhhh


      Or leave. Either one works.

  29. I hope these don't spend TOO long in the vault. The current 'earthquake' isn't likely to be changing the underlying issues that prompted the articles in the first place.

    1. yeah that's what we are all worried about soon CCP will be the morality police and you all will be wondering where the subs went.

    2. Fire Bush, have you read the two posts Jester linked at the end of this piece? The evidence strongly suggests that "the subs" are *already* gone, and only a few people are wondering where they went because we're all used to it by now.

      That's why I want Jester to finish his series, because I'm sure he has something interesting to say about that.

  30. Oh my how anoying:
    Donts just blame erotica1 blame sokhar because he got angry and said racist stuff. Blame Jester because he es abusing his position as CSM. Blame this, blame thats. The Bonus Round was in TS and has to be no concern to CCP but (!) it is also a very important asset to the game and should be protected. 4 tl;dr from Alistair Drake with the same intention: Lessen erotica1 fault and put in on others shoulders.

    Those comments are so lame, would should one think about those posters?
    sokhar was brought to a critical mental state. There even exists a manual how to do that.
    His wife was crying? I dont have the guts to listen to the recording, i just cant feel fun in hummiliating others. But still i see more and more of the most despicable stuff:
    His wife in the background started crying!?!
    Guys? You dont feel the slightest compassion for her? For him driven so far? I am very disapointed where a few players still insist that e1 and his company were alright. At this point there was no game anymore, only cruelty on the abusing site.
    What gives you the right and the need to force real tears and real despair?
    This is not just about EvE, its about the humanity thats left in all the players.
    What happend to you that you think its alright to hurt someone so bad eomtionaly?

    1. so by admission you are talking about something you haven't listened too. If you did you would know his wife wasn't crying lmfao. compassion? he even admits recently that he was duped and wishes people would just move on. Lol how would you feel if you got scammed in eve came to terms with it and then a week later someone starts a shit storm on your behalf that you don't even want. But from someone who "don't have the guts" to listen to a recording, wow. We would all be better off if people just made snap judgments based on what others think without experiencing things for ourselves. IRL and in game we need the government/media to tell us what is best for us I guess. As for the right to tears lol the victim gave it to ero1 by not leaving the convo, but you know ero1 was using some kind of out of game voodoo to influence his victims thoughts clearly.

  31. You should be shame for what you did, your a very famous EvE Online blogger that's also a member of the CSM, and you used your influence and power to start a witch-hunt on another player, for something that happened outside of the game that you don't like. In this moral high ground blog of yours, you harassed and persecuted that player, until a shitstorm thread started on the EvE Online forums, where you continued the witchcraft trial. The thread was closed and the player got banned.

    You are a sick and despicable human being.

    1. The thing about witch-hunts is that there are never actually any witches; the hunters make a big ballyhoo about hunting down something that was never actually there. Whereas here, Jester noticed someone being an asshole and called him out for being an asshole. If he declared that he was going to go hunting for assholes and then started accusing random people willy-nilly, then that would be a witch hunt. Since Er1 himself published the evidence of himself being an asshole, this is not the case.

      Unless you choose to make the argument that Er1 is not an asshole? I ask because you seem to have a pretty low threshold for sickness and despicability in a human being, and if Jester has tripped your detectors, I'm curious to see what adjectives you believe are fitting for Er1 himself.

    2. @William

      There are assholes everywhere in EVE, so what's your point, you make it sound like Er1 is the only asshole. Let's not forget he also accused the escrow agents too, not just Er1. He even outlined that he would have made their EVE existence very miserable if he had the authority along with banning Erotica, and possibly them.

    3. @william: I'm not sure whether you're simply ignorant, or actually an evil witch-hunt lover. Most cases where witch hunts happen these days, the targets actually do exist--that doesn't make frothing mobs A-ok.

      E.g.: :"The term is used when a hunt for wrongdoers becomes abused, and a defendant can be convicted merely on an accusation. For example, in the History Channel documentary America: The Story of Us, narrator Liev Schreiber explains that "the search for runaway slaves becomes a witch hunt. A black man can be convicted with merely an accusation. Unlike white people, they do not have the right to trial by jury. Judges are paid ten dollars to rule them as slaves, five to set them free."--the product of 10 seconds googling 'witch hunt', from the wikipedia article on witch hunts.

      Runaway slaves actually did exist, btw.

    4. p.s.: even if you believe Erotica1 deserved a ban, a decent human being would still be unhappy with the process that went on here; because they would want it to have resembled a calm and clear application of the rules, not an application of the witch hunt against a black man who was actually and truly a runaway slave. The hundreds of profane and angry comments I have seen on this situation are appalling; and the irony of hundreds of angry f-bomb dropping commenters cheering on the return of a friendly polite game is off the charts.

    5. Rules say CCP can ban at their discretion. That right is deliberately in place because it's impossible to have a rule for every hypothetical grey scenario.

      Whether CCP disapproved of Erotica1's behavior or were simply reacting to their community, they decided that his actions were unacceptable and that the game would be better off without him. As much as some players like to think otherwise, Eve is not a democracy. They don't need to set up a court and explain to everybody which letter of the law they referenced in making such a decision. I certainly don't need that, and nor do most players I imagine. And if that's just so terrible for you; if you think that CCP are being unaccountable dictators in your spaceship game; then you have every right to unsub.

      A decent human being would be happy with the results and is probably not overly concerned about getting banned for straddling the line. Your analogies with runaway slaves is ridiculous.

    6. I had no idea Jester was so formidable. Able to wave his hand, and with a single blog post have a completely random player booted from the game.

      Nope, that's not it. Erotica 1 the ISK scammer and his fellow cyberbullies selected their prey in the game, lured their prey out of the game, took their assets, taunted, cajoled and extorted the victims with no intention of paying off, then posted the recordings on the web for all to see. Jester's involvement, such as it is, came much later, as did CCP's decision,l after the cyberbullies repeated their bullying again and again.

      It's all on record, and Jester isn't a magician. Erotica 1 and his fellow cyberbullies made it all possible through their greed and disregard for decency. I could only wish that more of the perps faced appropriate sanctions.

  32. Tl/DR

    "we would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for that meddlesome blogger"

    Tasty,tasty tears. I am actually tear drunk..burrrp

  33. Jester..
    I salute you. You opened up a contentious can of worms & nailed your colours to the mast from the start in the viewpoint you took..Fair play.
    For my 2 pence worth (UK TZ here)..it was done `out of game`, no doubt for shits n giggles, but it doesn't make it right, as its so similar to playground bullyboy tactics that's its laughable in some ways.
    That the perceived `victim` snapped no doubt made it all the more interesting for all those involved. But for me, the overriding damning evidence against those involved was to make it public. Nuff said!
    Despite what some anonymous posters say, you are not a sick nor despicable human being, just a guy who`s actually willing to stand up n be counted for something he thinks is wrong AND put his name to it.
    Jai Kedrick

    PS. Having played this game from the start nigh on I have found it fascinating the amount of people who seem to forget that this is just a game/hobby & not a way of life!
    But again that's just my 2 pence worth.

    1. Jester/Ripard also made it public too, after giving CCP a confidential report, and before he supposedly got a response from them.

      But THANK YOU for raising the point that it is just a game, there's no better way to put other than, "...[T]wo people guilty of taking EVE too seriously." I'm sorry that I can't remember who you are to give you credit for this good quote, and most likely paraphrased it. Seriously, it is all a game, it's not worth getting all our panties in a bunch over it.

  34. Jester I totally understand why but honestly you speak for at least me and my Corp of friends when it comes to the stifling of the game by the elements in the game who bully and drive of new players and old. It is not good for the game. Please write your other posts so we can discuss as a community, it all badly needs saying and you are the person that people listen to. Maybe they won't do anything but it needs saying. Yes it is more work but it badly needs saying if eve is going to get and retain players and come elite and cloud imperium coming potentially in what 2 expansions time.. There will only be goons and griefers left with the rest of us maintaining our skill queues and watching the demise with popcorn as they feed on each other. Sounds interesting, screw trying to get a more reasonable balance between griefing and sandbox. Please write the other ones it desperately needs saying.

  35. Jester, please reconsider posting the rest of the series. This stuff needs to be brought into the light where people can see it and the creeps like Erotica 1 can fear it.

    CCP needs to feel the heat, not just from players, but from outside forces that have a lot more impact. Their flaccid response to this situation just goes to show that they are only taking action to save their own hides. I don't for one second believe that Erotica 1 was permanently banned from Eve Online. His actions speak volumes about the type of people who not only play Eve, but about those who run the game as well.

    This needs exposure. The problem needs to be brought into the open where people who have the power to change things can step in and clean the sandbox of all the feces that it has collected over the years.

  36. If you're open to reconsideration, I'd like to see the rest of the series. Its obviously a subject that needs to be talked about and fleshed out completely.

    It's gone and stirred up a hornet's nest, sure, but I think its important that both CCP and its players continue the conversation. For the future of the game, if nothing else.

    As for the minutes... well they should have been released long before your Bonus round post went up, so don't use that as an excuse. :P This topic is far more important than that anyway.

  37. Please consider posting the rest of your series. Strike while the iron is hot! Don't let it cool down and then try to shape it.

    Do all you can now, to help tomorrow.

    (What your doing is like George R.R. Martin not finishing the final two books.)

  38. Jester, I too would urge you to complete this series. At best, it looks as though CCP may have removed one bully from the game. It's a good start, but it will do little to remove this toxic culture from the game. Unfortunately, CCP has a track record of sweeping distasteful topics under the rug if the community doesn't keep up the pressure. As such, your planned posts on CSM9 candidates' positions is particularly crucial at this time, as we select those who will need to take up the torch for the next year. If we don't have representatives who are interested in pusuing this subject to conclusion, then I fear CCP will just let it go away quietly into the night.

    Please Jester, do not let this drop just as it is getting started! To do so would be like laying a foundation and then calling the skyscraper finished! One skirmish on the battlefield has been decided, but both the battle and the war rage on.

  39. I'm throwing in my support for finishing the series. This is a series that should be seen all the way through. Erotica1 was a symptom of the problem, and the topic should get its followthrough. There's a lot more that needs to worked on and we can't give CCP or the community the impression that the matter's closed after this.

    Unless you got gagged, that is.

  40. Jester, I have to ask one question: what was the purpose of this series? Were you trying to get Erotica1 banned from the game? Or was your goal to effect change on the EVE culture as a whole by addressing the danger which a prevalence of bullying poses to the continued existence and growth of the game?

    If your intent was the former alone, then well done, mission accomplished. However, if your purpose was the latter, then there is still much to do, leaving things off after just one minor victory is really dropping the ball.

    As an independent blogger, what issues you choose to discuss are of course your own. However, as a CSM member, and the representative of the players, I would argue that you have a responsibility to see this through. At least for the little time as you have left on the CSM, I would urge you to continue this fight on our behalf. We will back you in whatever way we can, but we need a solid voice to CCP to ensure that they take this matter seriously and don't just let it fade away like so many other issues.

    Don't give up now! We still need you. The two blog posts about bullying new players which you linked in the footnotes of this article make that abundantly clear. If EVE is to survive as a profitable game with a growing customer base, something needs to change in a dramatic way. So far, all we have is CCP corp-speak business as usual, and maybe one single bad egg thrown out. Are you really willing to let it rest at that?

    1. http://www.firesworn.com/blog/4/entry-32-my-journey-through-eve/ I suggest you read this entry as well as the one Ripard linked. Shows the guys thoughts a lot clearer than the kneejerk reaction Ripard chose to use.

    2. An interesting blog, but completely irrelevant to the present issue. No-one here says that in-game stuff needs sanctions. I know it's necessary for Erotica1's enablers to keep up the wall of text as long as possible, but at least try and keep the bricks vaguely relevant to what's happening.

  41. Friday when you posted this.
    Sunday now.
    Where are you m8?
    I know this is exhausting, but please let us know you're still there.
    Mabrick reminds us of the best argument yet - The Golden Rule.
    If anyone is still arguing for (redacted) they should refer to that.
    Hope to hear from you soon.

  42. Count me as another vote in favor of continuing the series ... eventually. Granted, the firestorm that got sparked over this means that rational discussion has become a bit difficult, but your proposed Part 8, at least, sounds intriguing. Perhaps after Fanfest, or after the summer expansion, when you don't have to handle CSM duties on top of it, a look at the demographics of EVE newcomers might be interesting.

    Speaking as someone who to this day has a visceral negative reaction to sadistic schoolyard bullying: thank you. Thank you for tackling this topic, for sticking to it, for pushing until the discussion came out into the light of day, where it needs to be, instead of the shadows.

    The discussion needs to continue in the light of day, though; it can't stop just because one unrepentant bully gets the hammer dropped on him (assuming that did actually happen). Where there's one, there may be others, possibly even a self-reinforcing network of them, and the idea that the only types of players in EVE are predators and prey flies right in the face of CCP's claims of "limitless potential"...

    I was on the verge of giving up EVE for a while; you and Malcanis between you (and especially Malcanis' statements in the forums) helped me decide to stick with it a little longer. I really hope you can continue on this topic, once the storm's blown over and the seas are calmer.

  43. You had two examples as part of your series on EVE. Erotica 1 was the second. Rumor has it that he got banned. CCP doesn't comment on that sort of thing and made a open ended post that included something from the EULA in response to the whole brouhaha, which is an ambiguous enough statement that it could be taken in a number of ways without too much effort.

    But your first tale of woe got no real traction in comparison, and looks to be perfectly acceptable according to CCP. Mission running carebear gets ganked, gets gouged buying some of his stuff back, then gets scammed out of his stuff. Another day in EVE Online... except that this ranked high enough to make your vile and despicable list ahead of Erotica 1.

    So did your main issue... which was not just about Erotica 1... get addressed? Because it looks like a draw at best from over here.

  44. As much as I despise players like Erotica 1, and agree that such players do not belong in the game, CCP has been steadily encouraging the type of behavior which led up to this incident. Many, many players have repeatedly told CCP that this was bound to happen, only to be ignored or even laughed at ("that will never happen" according to Soundwave, at Fanfest a few years ago).

    EVE is harsh? Please. Just an excuse to encourage more a**holes to sign up for the opportunity to bully someone who is weaker, trusting and/or naive.

    High sec was originally designed to allow new players someplace where they could grow into the game, without excessive harassment by the older players. But, the series of high sec nerfs over the past several years, which has encouraged more ganking, more scams, more wardecs of small noob corps, etc. has turned high sec into the a**hole paradise.

    So, ask CCP, if it is really worth losing a hundred new players for each a**hole player?

    Because this is fundamentally at the core of why EVE isn't seeing any substantial growth. I know of not less than 10 vet players who have each laughingly admitted to forcing 100+ noobs to quit playing the game, via harassment of the type fully permitted by the EULA and encouraged by CCP.

    Smart business plan? I don't think so.

  45. You are such a faggot. I hope you die.

    1. You seem upset, friend. Perhaps you should exhibit a braver outlook on the current affairs of Eve.

    2. An actual death threat, accompanied by reasonable evidence of a deep homosexual panic by the poster. I can't wait for Erotica!'s defenders to all come racing onto this thread to denounce it.

  46. The words in panel 12 of this comic are essentially how I describe what the community is like in EVE


    1. Into which of the two categories do you place yourself then?


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